Character Creation Advice

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

You know the guy on youtube made it sound so easy bluh bluh this blah blah that and there is this that does that and then that changes this to that.

So silly me I jump in all excited. I get my list of wants and desires out to start crafting the ultimate Character!

Race Drow because their pimpin! Character name XelPhen Size-4ft. 2in. 70 lbs. Appearance Petit, wiry, athletic, chiseled facial features with a sullen or scowling expression. Jet-Black skin tone, Long silver braided hair, piercing bright red eyes.
Heritage Cavern Elf, Background Hounded Thief, Class Rouge, Archetype Assassin Dedication.

Sounds pretty awesome huh? then the headaches start.

Trained Skills
Trained in Stealth
Trained in one or more skills determined by your rogue's racket.
Trained in a number of additional skills equal to 7 plus your Intelligence modifier.

Does this mean I get stealth plus one rogue racket and then 7 my +1 Intelligence modifier? or 7 total + Intelligence modifier.
1 Twin Feint-Rogue feats
2 Tumble behind-Rogue feats
3 Stealth-Rogue class, Archetype
4 Pickpocket-Hounded thief background
5 Thievery-Hounded thief background
6 Underworld Lore-Hounded thief background
7 Alchemical Crafting-Archetype
8 Deception-Archetype

At this point I was contemplating stabbing a fork in my eye. I do not even know if I am doing this stuff right. I been working on this for some time and I keep editing this https://xxsuperheroxx.freeforums.net/thread/373/pathfinder-2e-character-cre ation-process. don't mind my corner of the world wide web I am the only member it's my web sketch pad of sorts. I thought to link everything as to show where and how to craft a toon. Kind of awesome forums as sketch pads.

do I even get to play a Drow? This stuff is so hard to navigate. dinky dinky do I am soooo screwed. Was I to greedy wanting to craft my Neverwinder toon? anyways been doing a great deal of searching for pathfinder data. Navigating the Archives of Nethys and scratching down links. Do to the drama unfolded at D&DBeyond I think Pathfinders going to explode in popularity. I been scrapping links and stuff together as I find them bluh bluh bluh it would be nice if I could find an auto fill character sheet for the pathfinder e2 that worked...=/

OK back to the grind. trying to figure out calculating saving throws. Thank you for letting me vent a bit new here so forgive me if this post is against terms of service or forum etiquette. I was Banished at D&DBeyond like a great deal of other. I do not want to be banished here as well. =/ zoommm zing zoom pooof.

[aobst128]

Pathbuilder is likely what you're looking for. There's a web version and an android version that's very easy and straight forward to build characters in. Welcome to 2e btw.

[keftiu]

Drow are not playable in PF2 yet, and do not have black skin on Golarion. I would also probably not describe them as "pimpin."

Pathbuilder 2e is the PF2 character generator I recommend to everyone.

[breithauptclan]

Assuming not bait until shown otherwise.

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

Trained Skills

Trained in Stealth
Trained in one or more skills determined by your rogue's racket.
Trained in a number of additional skills equal to 7 plus your Intelligence modifier.

Does this mean I get stealth plus one rogue racket and then 7 my +1 Intelligence modifier? or 7 total + Intelligence modifier.

Stealth trained automatically

Racket will list some more skills trained automatically
Then 7 + INT more that you get to choose.

So with a +1 INT, that will be Stealth, Racket list, and 8 of your own choosing.

I would also suggest Pathbuilder2e android app or web app, or the Wanderer's Guide web app.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

Bait? No why would it be bait I was asking things I am currently having issues getting on Archives of Nethys. So rebooted browser cleared the history still no luck I think it has to many users on at once.

Sorry you do not share my love of Drows it's a Horde thing and then playing a rogue drow on neverwinter. I was not aware I could be voted off the forum is that what flag means?

So the so stealth does not count as it is a class standard and that give me 8 so I get one more awesome thank you. I have the link for wander's guide I'll go scout that out right now. Thank you for replying!

what is a 1/10 attempt? should I seek out help on another site to avoid conflict?

First post and I am already getting in trouble dohhh.

[Mathmuse]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

Does this mean I get stealth plus one rogue racket and then 7 my +1 Intelligence modifier? or 7 total + Intelligence modifier.

1 Twin Feint-Rogue feats
2 Tumble behind-Rogue feats
3 Stealth-Rogue class, Archetype
4 Pickpocket-Hounded thief background
5 Thievery-Hounded thief background
6 Underworld Lore-Hounded thief background
7 Alchemical Crafting-Archetype
8 Deception-Archetype

This list likely means that XXSUPERHEROXX does not know the difference between skill proficiency ranks and skill feats and class feats.

If a character is trained in a skill, then their proficience bonus for using the skill is +2+level. Each skill also adds the bonus from its related ability score. For example, a 3rd-level rogue with Dex 18 and trained in Thievery would have a +5 proficiency bonus to a Disable a Device activity in addition to the +4 dex bonus, so his thievery skill check would be 1d20 + 9.

In addition, a rogue gains one skill feat at each level. Most classes gain fewer skill feats, but rogues are built to be so-called skill monkeys. A character also gains a skill feat from their background. A feat gives a character a new action they can use, or modifies an action that they can already use.

For example, the Hounded Thief gives the Pickpocket skill feat. The Steal requires a thievery skill check to succeed in stealing an object. It also says, "If the object is in a pocket or similarly protected, you take a –5 penalty to your Thievery check." But the Pickpocket skill feat says, "You can Steal or Palm an Object that’s closely guarded, such as in a pocket, without taking the –5 penalty." Furthermore, a character cannot Steal from an enemy in combat, but Pickpocket allows that.

In summary, proficiency in a skill gives better numbers and a feat in a skill gives better actions. The 7+int trained skills are all for proficiency. Thus, the rogue could be trained in Stealth from the class, trained in Thievery and Underworld Lore from the background, trained in Intimidation from Ruffian Racket, and then get 8 more trained skills such as trained in Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Diplomacy, Medicine, Performance, Religion, and Society. This example has twelve trained skill proficiencies, and all other skills, such as Arcana and Survival, are untrained and have a +0 proficiency bonus.

A class feat is a feat that is given to a particular class. Rogues gain a class feat at 1st level, 2nd level, 4th level, and all the even levels thereafter. That rate of gaining class feats is typical, except that primary spellcasters often don't receive a 1st-level class feat to balance against the power of their initial spells and cantrips. Thus, a 1st-level elf rogue could have Twin Feint or Tumble Behind but not both.

Pathfinder 2nd Edition also offers ancestry feats at 1st level, 5th level, and every (4n+1) level after that and general feats at 3rd level, 7th level and every (4n+3) level after that. Thus, an elf rogue would also have a 1st-level elf feat.

Rogue rackets and elf heritages are not feats, but they are much like them. Cavern Elf heritage does not mean Drow. The Drow have not been introduced to PF2 yet. But Cavern Elf is as close as we can get to Drow right now.

We currently have five choices for Rogue Rackets:
- Eldritch Trickster is good for a spellcasting trickster;
- Mastermind is good for a smart leader who makes careful plans;
- Ruffian is good for a strong thug who fights like a bandit;
- Scoundrel is good for a charming con artist who lies; and
- Thief is good for a dextrous sneak who relies on finesse.

[BretI]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

Race Drow because their pimpin! Character name XelPhen Size-4ft. 2in. 70 lbs. Appearance Petit, wiry, athletic, chiseled facial features with a sullen or scowling expression. Jet-Black skin tone, Long silver braided hair, piercing bright red eyes.

Heritage Cavern Elf, Background Hounded Thief, Class Rouge, Archetype Assassin Dedication.

Sounds pretty awesome huh? then the headaches start.

Alright, let’s try to build this from your description.

As others noted, Drow are not the same in Pathfinder as they are in other settings. Still, we can get an elf with Darkvision that grew up in the Darklands.

Ancestry

Ancestry: Elf
Heritage: Cavern Elf which would give you darkvision.

Pick one elven 1st level ancestry feat. You probably want to look at Elven Weapon Familiarity for the Elven Curve Blade.

Attributes are now:
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 8 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 10

You can add two more to anything except Dex and Int with your free boost. Since your description seemed to focus on intimidation, let’s put it in Charisma.

Str 10 Dex 12 Con 8 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 12

Background

You wanted Hounded Thief from the Guns & Gears book.

It gives two attribute boosts of which one must be to Dexterity or Wisdom, and one is a free ability boost.

I’m going to assume you go for Dex and Charisma.

Str 10 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 14.

Trained in Thievery and get the Pickpocket skill feat.

Class

You wanted Rogue. You could either do the Ruffian since it concentrates on Intimidation or go with the Thief racket. They each give slightly different things and play a little differently.

Ruffian has better armor, wants a better strength, and gets feats like Brutal Beating to scare opponents. Other thief rackets don’t have the option of the Brutal Beating feat.

Thief is your more classical Rogue, wants all the Dexterity they can get. When using an appropriate weapon in melee, they can use their Dexterity modifier to add damage in place of their Strength Modifer.

Let’s assume for the moment you go Thief,

This boosts you Dex and causes you to be Trained in Stealth (all rogues) and Thievery (because of a thief racket).

Since you already were Trained in Thievery because of the Background you chose, you can choose a different skill to also be trained in.

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 8 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 14.

Trained in Stealth, Thievery, and 9 other skills — 7 +1 from Int +1 because you already had Thievery.

If you want to be an Assassin, two of those skills need to be Crafting and Deception.

You get one Rogue Feat and one Skill feat.

You said you wanted Twin Feint as the Rogue feat. That Charisma will help you make the feint work.

I would suggest you take Intimidation as one of your trained skills and Intimidating Glare to fit the general impression your character description made me think you might like.

Details

You get four more free ability boosts.

I would suggest Str, Dex, Con, Cha.

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16.

The Charisma will help you with Intimidation and other social skills.
The Strength is for carrying capacity and being able to wear Studded Leather armor. You don’t need it, but without it you may find carrying capacity to be a pain.
Con because you want the hit points and don’t ever want a penalty to Fortitude saves.

I shouldn’t need to explain why you want Dex.

Taking Strength to 14 would be nice when you are using a bow, but is not required.

Feel free to make other choices with the Ability Boosts. You can have a perfectly functional rogue with a Dex 16.

Equipment

Rogue kit plus Elven Curve Blade if you can afford it.

You will want to get a Short Bow when you can afford it.

If you went for a 14 Str, you will want a Composite Short Bow for the additional +1 damage.

Assassin

You need to be trained in Crafting, Deception and Stealth.
You need the Alchemical Crafting feat.

If you took Charisma like I suggested, it will help you with the Deception as well.

Fortunately you are a Rogue so you get a skill feat at 2nd level, so you can take that skill feat and still qualify for the archtype.

The dedication takes up the Rogue feat that you would have gotten.

——

Hope the above helps.

There are details I didn’t fill in, but it should give you the basic structure you were looking for.

[graystone]

BretI wrote:

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 19 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16.

I assume you meant con 10, not con 19 right?

[BretI]

graystone wrote:

BretI wrote:

Str 12 Dex 18 Con 19 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16.

I assume you meant con 10, not con 19 right?

Fixed, thanks for the correction!

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

Thank you!!!! awesome I was off doing equipment bulk starter build cost. I am going to cut n paste this advice in the thread I am currently figuring out how to build.

I researched drow folk lore from the 18th century, and I found some things on Player characters drow.

as most things as of now it would be up to the DM to be allowed to run a drow.

I am just building to learn how to find and make a character.

at 4ft 2 in and 70 bounds I was going for duel handed daggers 2 throwing knives, blow dart and a bullwhip all poisoned. I had not thought a short skinny drow could pull off Intimidation. I was thinking like stab, dodge tant repeat. I see I have a lot of things wrong which I am going to fix up. I think it is pretty awesome you guys took the time to write out such good advice. ok off to cut n paste and fix stuff! Once again thank you so very much for your time and advice!

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Wow, that is a short drow! But remember, intimidation is all about panache. Play up the raw confidence exuding from the commanding presence of the rogue.

As an aside, do note that you now have the option to trade the Elf +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Con for a bonus to any two stats. Most significantly, this would being being able to drop that 12 Int to 10 and get a +2 boost to one of Str (14), Con (12), or Wis (12) depending what you want more of. Unfortunately you couldn't do Dex or Cha because I believe Bretl already did a fine job making sure those were both as high as can be achieved in character creation.

---

Quote:

I was thinking like stab, dodge taunt repeat.

I just noticed this bit. Be advised that there isn't technically an exact 'dodge' action to increase your defences. In many cases simply taking a step or stride away from your foes is a useful defensive tool, but I wanted to be clear what a 'dodge' looks like in 2e. Alternatively, if you're standing near some suitable terrain features, you may Take Cover for +2 AC as a way of using the environment to 'dodge'.

Finally, if by 'Taunt' you mean use the Demoralize action (Intimidation) this is a very good plan, but it's almost always better to start your attacks with Demoralize so that your foe already has the penalty. That said, you can't demoralize the same target twice in one fight, so this is only repeatable if you keep using it on a different foe each round (in which case, your allies should thank you for the debuff work!).

Fortunately, since Twin Feint requires 2 actions (the double diamond symbol at the top shows that), you will have plenty of things to do with your extra action even just twin feinting and backing off.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

I am still unclear what is the difference between skills. I have taken the advice and did some changes. I run in to dead ends resourcing skills.

I went with
Rouge stealth
Thief racket Stealth, Thievery
Hounded Thief Thievery skill, and the Underworld Lore skill, gain the Pickpocket skill feat.
Crafting, Alchemical Crafting, Deception for Assassin Dedication Prerequisites.
Intimidation as one of your trained skills and [6] Intimidating Glare to fit Xelphens chiseled facial features with a sullen or scowling expression. Jet-Black skin tone, Long silver braided hair, piercing bright red eyes. Demoralize a creature without speaking.
Twin Feint and Tumble behind

Thievery
Stealth
Pickpocket
Intimidation
Intimidating Glare
Twin Feint wielding two melee weapons like a whip and a dagger
Tumble behind
Crafting
Alchemical Crafting
Underworld Lore
Deception
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16

I can be the smallest of the party and the most feared LOL crack whip tant stab.
I am unsure things right as I can't read the rules or data on skill feats and class feats.
BretI said at the end something about 2nd level to get a needed skill to qualify for the archtype. anyways I been very busy "fixing stuff"

You people are awesome! You all are very helpful and I am very grateful for the advice. Thank you for taking time to help out!

[shroudb]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

I am still unclear what is the difference between skills. I have taken the advice and did some changes. I run in to dead ends resourcing skills.

I went with
Rouge stealth
Thief racket Stealth, Thievery
Hounded Thief Thievery skill, and the Underworld Lore skill, gain the Pickpocket skill feat.
Crafting, Alchemical Crafting, Deception for Assassin Dedication Prerequisites.
Intimidation as one of your trained skills and [6] Intimidating Glare to fit Xelphens chiseled facial features with a sullen or scowling expression. Jet-Black skin tone, Long silver braided hair, piercing bright red eyes. Demoralize a creature without speaking.
Twin Feint and Tumble behind

Thievery
Stealth
Pickpocket
Intimidation
Intimidating Glare
Twin Feint wielding two melee weapons like a whip and a dagger
Tumble behind
Crafting
Alchemical Crafting
Underworld Lore
Deception
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16

I can be the smallest of the party and the most feared LOL crack whip tant stab.
I am unsure things right as I can't read the rules or data on skill feats and class feats.
BretI said at the end something about 2nd level to get a needed skill to qualify for the archtype. anyways I been very busy "fixing stuff"

You people are awesome! You all are very helpful and I am very grateful for the advice. Thank you for taking time to help out!

Skills are your proficiency in doing stuff.

As an example, Stealth is your skill to hide, and thievery is your skill to steal and disable devices. Athletics is your skill for jumping, climbing, and such. And etc.

It goes from Untrained, to Trained, to Expert, to Master, to Legendary.

Each skill also has its own Skill Feats. Those are extra abilities that you can pick to do using that skill.

As an example, while Athletics is your skill to jump, Quick Jump is an Athletics Skill Feat that allows a running jump without the running part.

---

A rogue gets some starting skill ranks set to Trained (stealth, the racket one, and 7+Int more) and then every level you either increase one more from Untrained to Trained, or increase a Trained to Expert (and down the line, from Expert to Master, and from Master to Legendary).

You also get another skill from your background as well a Lore from your background.

Skill Feats are something else entirely as I said above.

You get 1 from your background, and then Rogue gets 1 every level.

From your list, Intimidate is the Skill. Intimidating Glare is a Skill Feat. It gives you a different/modified ability based on the base Skill (you can demoralise without speaking).

As an example, if you want to be able to make poisons to play the classic dark elf poisoned weapons angle, you can pick up Craft as a skill, and Alchemical Crafting as a skill feat, and now you can spend your downtime crafting poisons.

[breithauptclan]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

I went with

Rouge stealth
Thief racket Stealth, Thievery
Hounded Thief Thievery skill, and the Underworld Lore skill, gain the Pickpocket skill feat.
Crafting, Alchemical Crafting, Deception for Assassin Dedication Prerequisites.
Intimidation as one of your trained skills and [6] Intimidating Glare to fit Xelphens chiseled facial features with a sullen or scowling expression. Jet-Black skin tone, Long silver braided hair, piercing bright red eyes. Demoralize a creature without speaking.
Twin Feint and Tumble behind

Thievery
Stealth
Pickpocket
Intimidation
Intimidating Glare
Twin Feint wielding two melee weapons like a whip and a dagger
Tumble behind
Crafting
Alchemical Crafting
Underworld Lore
Deception
Str 12 Dex 18 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16

Something still feels off about this.

The ability scores look valid.

Skills
Rogue = Stealth
Thief = Thievery
Hounded Thief = Lore (underworld)
Hounded Thief = Thievery (duplicate)
7 +INT = Intimidation, Crafting, Deception.

That's not enough.

Duplicate proficiency grants during level 1 character creation get replaced with a skill of your choosing. So the duplicate Thievery proficiency needs to be replaced with something. Intimidation works.

Rogue = Stealth
Thief = Thievery
Hounded Thief = Lore (underworld)
Hounded Thief = Thievery Intimidation
7 +INT = Crafting, Deception.
But you still need to choose six more skills to be trained in.

I'm also not sure about what level this character is being created at.

If it is at level 1, then skill feats don't look right. You only get one skill feat from your background at level 1. For Hounded Thief it is Pickpocket. You won't get any more skill feats until level 2. Same with Class feats. You only get one of them at level 1 and will get a second one at level 2. Then not get a third until level 4. So you will have to choose one between Twin Feint and Tumble Behind.

You do get an Ancestry feat at level 1 though.

[BretI]

He is building a Rogue. Rogues get a skill feat at 1st level.

I think he is planning out later levels, but am not certain.

Skills:

The following are all of the skills in Pathfinder Second Edition::

Acrobatics
Arcana
Athletics
Craft
Deception
Diplomacy
Intimidation
Lore (special)
Medicine
Nature
Occultism
Performance
Religion
Society
Stealth
Survival
Thievery

Lore is special in that you pick a certain topic that you have studied. See the skill description for examples. You can pick up skill in more than one Lore, so you could have Lore Underworld and Lore Elven. Each is tracked as a separate skill.

Skill Feats
These modify the way you can use your skills. As an example, the Quick Jump feat allows you to make a jump without a running start. You still used Athletics to do the jump, but you can do more with your Athletics for jumping than someone without that feat.

Pickpocket is an example of a skill feat. You get it from the background you chose. It makes you better at the type of Sleight of Hand needed to pick pocket someone. It doesn’t help you with the other things that the Thievery skill can do such as disable traps.

[BretI]

Whip

You’ve mentioned this a couple of times, needed to go off and check the rules.

Rogues are not proficient with Whips.

At first level, these are the weapons with which you are proficient:
Trained in simple weapons
Trained in the rapier, sap, shortbow, and shortsword
Trained in unarmed attacks

Whip is a martial weapon. You would have no training in it.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

I am not saying I got this figured out yet but now I see some things I was doing wrong and I think I have fixed a couple things. ok I had forum programming issue on my sketch pad the code page it a mess anyway I got this much edited.

I get one skill from my rogue class stealth, I get one skill from my class thief racket thievery, I get two skills from my hound thief background underworld lore and thievery totaling 4. Sense thievery is a duplicate I get an alternative pick to replace it. Then I have 7 wildcards and a bonus for my intellect totaling 8 wildcard picks of skills.
Skill
Stealth Rogue class
Thievery Thief Racket
Underworld Lore Background
Thievery Background duplicate
Intimidation Alternative for duplicate
Crafting 1
Acrobatics 2
Athletics 3
Deception 4
Medicine 5
Survival 6
Performance 7
Diplomacy 8

I only get one skill feat from your background, 1 Class feats and Ancestry feat at level 1
my pick of Skill Feats
Pickpocket Background
Tumble Behind Class
Elven Weapon Familiarity Ancestry

the burning question is the total skill feats I get at level 1 I already have 3 and I am unsure if I get Intimidating Glare and or Alchemical Crafting.

Finding the data is the trick there is a lot of information to read and interpret so still searching. now after all of the awesome advice from each of you I think I get the difference between basic skill and the sub skill feats that are under the skill.

This is just a learning character to learn to build characters. dropped
Twin Feint and picked Tumble Behind a second attack action has a neg and so twin feint in my understanding would be departmental. I am still not clear on how many skill feats I am allowed I listed the background, class and ancestries as the given but was unsure if I get more like the intimidating glare and alchemical crafting.

ARRGG the humanity I am very displeased I have to what tell 5th level to get Martial Experience! My dreams of using my Intimidating Glare to command monsters to prepare to be disciplined as I crack my whip will have to wait! then again I do not know if I even have Intimidating Glare yet arrggg doohhh =/

Thank you every one for your help! I am having a great deal of fun exploring Pathfinder 2e! off to clean up the scratch pad double triple check stuff an assassins job is never done.

[Applied_People]

keftiu wrote:

Drow...do not have black skin on Golarion.

I was curious about this. Here's what I discovered.

The page on AoN for 1st edition playable drow says: "Drow skin ranges from coal black to a dusky purple."

On the other hand, the page for NPC drow on the AoN 2nd edition page says: "their flesh adopted an unearthly lavender sheen that made the drow instantly recognizable."

In the 1e book Into the Darklands, drow skin is described as "as dark as their hearts," and the art on that page shows a very dark skinned priestess.

Conclusion: Inconclusive.

Maybe the shift in 2e language is a stealth retcon for some reason.

[Rysky]

Applied_People wrote:

Conclusion: Inconclusive.

Maybe the shift in 2e language is a stealth retcon for some reason.

Not inconclusive, go with the latest info (aka the new edition).

“I’m evil so my skin turns black” is racist, m’kay.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Even more, the very sentence, "skin as dark as their hearts" is... well, yikes.

In any case, among the many, many minor updates that the 2nd edition brought with it to the lore (whether correcting old inaccuracies or making a specific, conscious change such as the aeon convergence), this was not particularly stealth, though that could be an effect of having been around the forums at that time.

[Deriven Firelion]

Applied_People wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Drow...do not have black skin on Golarion.

I was curious about this. Here's what I discovered.

The page on AoN for 1st edition playable drow says: "Drow skin ranges from coal black to a dusky purple."

On the other hand, the page for NPC drow on the AoN 2nd edition page says: "their flesh adopted an unearthly lavender sheen that made the drow instantly recognizable."

In the 1e book Into the Darklands, drow skin is described as "as dark as their hearts," and the art on that page shows a very dark skinned priestess.

Conclusion: Inconclusive.

Maybe the shift in 2e language is a stealth retcon for some reason.

James Jacobs could probably answer this.

As far as I know drow are still anywhere from the dusky purple to the jet black skin. A bit different from Greyhawk drow.

The most recent use of drow was in Abomination Vaults and also Extinction Curse. I did not notice much of a physical difference. They aren't the spider goddess worshipping Greyhawk Drow. Drow are culturally more diverse in Golarion as they aren't the dark faerie-based elves of Greyhawk.

I think James Jacobs developed the the Golarion drow, but I can't be sure given the number of drow derivatives over the years from Greyhawk to Forgotten Realms to Golarion, not even taking into account video games.

[Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich]

If I may make a suggestion to help keep track of things:

Write things out in the order that you get them

i.e.

ANCESTRY : stats
heritage
ancestry feat

BACKGROUND : stats
skill proficiency
skill feat

CLASS : racket : stat , skill proficiency
stealth proficiency
7+int skill proficiencies
class feat
skill feat

4 Stat boosts

then do each level in turn, writing down what you get at each

[BretI]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

I only get one skill feat from your background, 1 Class feats and Ancestry feat at level 1
my pick of Skill Feats
Pickpocket Background
Tumble Behind Class
Elven Weapon Familiarity Ancestry

You get one skill feat from class in addition to the one from your background.

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

the burning question is the total skill feats I get at level 1 I already have 3 and I am unsure if I get Intimidating Glare and or Alchemical Crafting.

You get the skill feat from the background and a skill feat as a rogue at first level.

You could take either Intimidating Glare or Alchemical Crafting. That decision is totally yours.

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

I am still not clear on how many skill feats I am allowed I listed the background, class and ancestries as the given but was unsure if I get more like the intimidating glare and alchemical crafting.

Most classes get a skill feat at every even level.

Rogues are all about skills and get a skill feat every level.

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

ARRGG the humanity I am very displeased I have to what tell 5th level to get Martial Experience! My dreams of using my Intimidating Glare to command monsters to prepare to be disciplined as I crack my whip will have to wait! then again I do not know if I even have Intimidating Glare yet arrggg doohhh =/

I don’t understand.

If you want to command an animal, you would need Nature skill not Intimidation. You could demoralize animals with Intimidation (making them frightened) if you had Intimidating Glare. Normally Intimidation requires a language in common, but Intimidating Glare makes it Visual instead of Language Dependent.

Why do you want Martial Experience? Is it just to become proficient with the Whip? If it is just that, you could pick up pick up Weapon Proficiency (a general feat) at third level and be able to use the weapon.

I’m not understanding some of the things you are trying to achieve, so it is hard to give advice.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

Origin of Drow comes from 18th century Norwegian, Old Norse, Scandinavian, Danish Fairy folklore Mythology, Basically Gary Gygax took Fairy Mythology from 18th century folklore.

The Drow were elves that live in the dark depths of the world. They fled underground to escape a deadly cataclysm and succumbed to the influence of a demon lord. I read some where I can find now that the Rovagug, the Rough Beast turned the elf black.

A person named Josh has a good article https://ashenvault.com/drow-race-pathfinder, you can read up on Gary Gygax adaptation here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drow#:~:text=The%20word%20%22drow%22%20is%20f rom%20the%20Orcadian%20and,refer%20to%20a%20wide%20variety%20of%20evil%20sp rites. and will as a link to the wiki Trow the links at the top of that page.

I do not "really" need a whip nor do I want to heard I just want one to be cool. It was more for a Domina persona you know the mean woman dressed in black leather armor with an Intimidating Glare Xelphens chiseled facial features with a sullen or scowling expression. Jet-Black skin tone, Long silver braided hair, piercing bright red eyes Knives, dagger and whip Demoralize a creature without speaking. I am trained in Intimidation, Deception, Performance I really do not have to even use the whip I just act like I intend to use the whip. I mean I am 4 foot 2 inches I need props, Then there is the whole thought of Indiana Jones and the raiders of the lost ark I mean he didn't "need" to carry a whip but how cool was that? I mean you told me I can't have a whip innless I have Martial Experience then you go and tell me I could pick up something in third level. I just wanted a whip to look cool and to whip people that annoy me or as a tant distraction makeshift rope. I am confused myself does this main a driver of a horse and cart needs Martial Experience to use a whip?

I only get one skill feat from my background, 1 Class feats and 1 Ancestry feat at level 1
Skill Feat
Pickpocket Background
Tumble Behind Class
Elven Weapon Familiarity Ancestry

Intimidating Glare and Alchemical Crafting are General Skill feats so what your telling me at 1st level I should be happy with the three feats I have and just pick up one of those two in my next level.

anyway I am very much enjoying making this character I feel badly for the Game master and other players if I get to actually use this character Chaotic/Neutral rogue assassin would be interesting.

Thank you everyone you all have been a huge help to me if you interested in Drow give Joshs article a read and maybe you'll want to play a Drow Elf to!

[Deriven Firelion]

I've already played more drow than I can count across several editions and worlds. I'm kind of drowed out.

Did Against the Giants when it first came out and the first appearance of the drow. Vault of Drow. Night Below. City of the Spider Queen. Started Second Darkness. Read all the books.

Drow were very cool for a long time. Still pretty cool. But have been so overdone you reach the point of drow burnout.

Cool to see someone still likes playing them.

[shroudb]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

But have been so overdone you reach the point of drow burnout.

I blame Drizzt.

One can stomach only so many dual wielding drows...

Back in and through the whole adnd 2nd edition it was almost customary that each of our playing groups had at least one of those in...

[graystone]

shroudb wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

But have been so overdone you reach the point of drow burnout.

I blame Drizzt.

One can stomach only so many dual wielding drows...

Back in and through the whole adnd 2nd edition it was almost customary that each of our playing groups had at least one of those in...

It started before Drizzt: in ad&d, drow where the only ones that could dual wield without penalty. I can remember quite a few spiked buckler and sword ones.

[shroudb]

graystone wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

But have been so overdone you reach the point of drow burnout.

I blame Drizzt.

One can stomach only so many dual wielding drows...

Back in and through the whole adnd 2nd edition it was almost customary that each of our playing groups had at least one of those in...

It started before Drizzt: in ad&d, drow where the only ones that could dual wield without penalty. I can remember quite a few spiked buckler and sword ones.

well yes, but at least in my area, the popularity only exploded when drizzt novels came out and everyone wanted to go the edgy "i'm fighting against my whole race" kinda character for some reason.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

I been over playing on Pathbuilder I wish I had earlier as it works great! As I see it from crafting the toon there one skill feat from your background, one Class feats one Ancestry feat and one skill feat at level one. so I went with.
Pickpocket Background
Tumble Behind Class
Elven Weapon Familiarity Ancestry
Intimidating Glare skill feat

The whole Drow thing has been around sense Gary Gygax brought it in to the D&D game. You can play any race if your Game Master lets you In the Army I played a half human half fire giant with a back story and all. Human male fighter gets enslaved by a female Fire Giant he falls in love bluh bluh bluh I think his name was Thrain. But I digress we power played back then murder hobo kill everything kind of play.

This toon is crafted after my NeverWinter toons Xelphen and Theomacha.

Xelphen (female Drow rogue assassin) of house Aleanrahel, daughter of the High Priestess of goddess Araushnee now known as Lolth, the Queen of the Demonweb Pits. Banished from the UnderDark for betrayal to her house for taking a lover Theomacha of house Barrison'del'armgo. Theomacha (female Drow Ranger) of house Barrison'del'armgo assassinated Xelphen's mother the Hish Priestess of the goddess Araushnee and fled the UnderDark to the surface of Faerûn. Xelphen Left the UnderDark and wonders Faerûn looking for her love Theomacha. Raised in the high house of Aleanrahel she is trained as an assassin skill set and training knife fighting, knife throwing, poisons and dark magic. She is the Bringer of death

I play Female Characters The Drow are a Matriarchy a society ruled by females men in Drow society are treated as lesser citizens. They don't own property and they must marry into powerful households to gain power.

I think my build reflex's pretty good given a Chaotic Neutral out cast of noble birth I know my Neverwinter story plot will not work in the Pathfinder canon, but I have zero data to craft a working back story as of yet. I do have a great deal of Knowlege of the Drow from crafting the NeverWinter toons back story. Theomacha is from old forklore of the sever sisters or the seven witchs it is the name taken by one that means Enemy of God. I like tying in real forklore into my toons.

Anyway thank you all for taking time to read and responded to this thread! I am off to research why my numbers do not match between the pathbuilder and my own calculations.

[Deriven Firelion]

The Matriarchy thing is Greyhawk and Menzo-B in Faerun. I don't think drow in Golarion are Matriarchal. Not sure what world you're playing in though.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

I have been researching Drow Society from a number of sources. it is a waste of my time to argue about fictional worlds. In the Dungeons & Dragons campaign setting Lolth based drow society is primarily matriarchal, it also states that "There are exceptions to the rule, of course. Some communities of drow worship other gods (like Vhaeraun or Eilistraee), and thus, their hierarchy changes, reverses the roles of males and females, or (such as in the case of Eilastree) even approaching something like a workable, progressive society. Drow societies can also vary vastly depending on the Dungeons & Dragons campaign setting."

I stated above I am not familiar with Golarion History. what I have read is that the Pathfinder Drow history mirrors the Dungeons & Dragons campaign setting history.

a group of elves fled into the Caves of the Craven below the Calphiak Mountains, Rovagug, the god of destruction who had been imprisoned far below during the Age of Creation. As his wakened mind reached out, it touched the cave where the elves had sequestered themselves, and mixed with the Darklands' strange radiations and the elves' own feelings of betrayal and anger. It transformed them, turning their hair white and skin dark, and replaced the race's natural tendencies towards independence and good with Rovagug's evil; these elves became the first generation of drow.

Given that strange radiation from an evil gods mind is what is making them black and evil I would think they would stop being evil when they get out of the radiated Darklands. bluh bluh bluh the whole radiation thing is kind of lame but what ever it is a nonissue now that we can't play Drows My preference is to have fun and I am having fun making a dominate female character who came from a matriarchal Society.

The game is not going to be fun if there is always going to be a rule lawyer saying "you can't do that because bluh bluh bluh.

[BretI]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

My preference is to have fun and I am having fun making a dominate female character who came from a matriarchal Society.

The game is not going to be fun if there is always going to be a rule lawyer saying "you can't do that because bluh bluh bluh.

If you call yourself a Cavern Elf and keep the physical description, there should be much less of a problem.

Drow carries all sorts of baggage that the Golarian lore is inconsistent on. I’ve no real interest in it, so I haven’t bothered reading through all the lore out there.

Suffice it to say that Golarian lore is different than D&D Lore and if you take too many elements from what appears to be D&D lore there are going to be people who want to helpfully educate you on the difference.

Sorry if any of my comments came off as “you can’t do that.” I was trying to understand your concept and find the best fit for it within the rules framework of PF2, not get picky about the rules used. I had thought you were expecting the whip to be a useful weapon, in which case you really want a certainly level of weapon proficiency with it. Since there are multiple ways to gain weapon proficiency, I tried to guess which would work best given what I understood of your concept.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

No worry on the whole whip thing. I did not expect it to be a special weapon in need of its own training class. I just thought it fit in with the whole dominatrix female lead society assassin intimidation concept. The rule lawyer comment is in a general way about all the people that drag down the fun with rules. With your help I learned a great deal and I am still learning so your help if it is still valuable is of great value to me. If Pathfinder wants to take a known race and change the complete history, then I guess they can though they might have thought to change the dark elves in to Trow or some other name. No matter I was looking in to altering my backstory to fit Pathfinder but there are issues with content between two history's and society's.

If and when I find local people to play with and a Game Master. I can make a more expectable character this is a learning curve character.

I am sorry if I offended you with my careless comment and I am thankful for your help.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

What I just found out that is an invaluable tool is the browser speak aloud feature works for the Archives of Nethys site. What was a daunting task of reading a great deal of text turned in to a lovely audio book that I can lesson to as I clean up the crafting post for this toon. I thought I might share that for any who are interested in learning other aspects of the game or refamiliarizing themselves with other data. The reading thing was a deal breaker in the 90's for my dream of becoming a Dungeon master.

Thank you to who ever moved this thread and changed the title your timely aid and patience with my personality and my warped sense of dark humor. aloud me to get the advice I was seeking! The reawakened dream of possibly becoming a Game Master is alive!

Thank you!

[Arachnofiend]

I will say that if you are very interested in playing a rogue with a whip, you can tell your GM that rogues already get proficiency in the best martial finesse weapon (the shortsword) and that the rogue's lack of proficiency is a PF1 legacy problem rather than a real balance concern.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

"I once saw him kill three men in a bar...with a pencil." As you can see game master an assassin is highly motived, extremely resourceful, Quick to improvise and adapt to any circumstances to overcome overwhelming odds with share tenacity and bravado.

Understandable the rogue class states simple weapons however the Archetype Assassin Dedication clearly states my agile and finesse weapons and unarmed attacks gain the backstabber and deadly d6 weapon traits when you're attacking your mark.

Which leaves one to believe that there is a small oversight in the rogues training as a dagger and a short sword are finesse weapons the sap and shortbow are Martial. The whip is listed under both Martail and finesse and rely on Dexterity to hit and strength for damage. My Character has a 18 ability score with a +4 modifier. Even without training which only means I do not receive a +2 modifier I should at the very least be able to crack the whip to tant, distract and or intimidate. It is you to your discretion to allow me to substitute one of the trained weapons listed for the whip. You would think that the whip would be an intricate part of the Drow matriarchal Society, but I digress.

Just saying if John Wick can kill three men in a bar with a number 2 pencil I should be allowed to carry a whip and look cool.

[shroudb]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

"I once saw him kill three men in a bar...with a pencil." As you can see game master an assassin is highly motived, extremely resourceful, Quick to improvise and adapt to any circumstances to overcome overwhelming odds with share tenacity and bravado.

Understandable the rogue class states simple weapons however the Archetype Assassin Dedication clearly states my agile and finesse weapons and unarmed attacks gain the backstabber and deadly d6 weapon traits when you're attacking your mark.

Which leaves one to believe that there is a small oversight in the rogues training as a dagger and a short sword are finesse weapons the sap and shortbow are Martial. The whip is listed under both Martail and finesse and rely on Dexterity to hit and strength for damage. My Character has a 18 ability score with a +4 modifier. Even without training which only means I do not receive a +2 modifier I should at the very least be able to crack the whip to tant, distract and or intimidate. It is you to your discretion to allow me to substitute one of the trained weapons listed for the whip. You would think that the whip would be an intricate part of the Drow matriarchal Society, but I digress.

Just saying if John Wick can kill three men in a bar with a number 2 pencil I should be allowed to carry a whip and look cool.

It's a much bigger difference than +2.

Untrained is +0 and Trained is Level+2

So, at something like level 4 you are already at -6.

But even at -2 (trained vs expert as an example) the difference of a +2 is quite substantial in pf2. As an example, fighter is one of the best martial classes in no small part due to that +2 above the other martials.
---

For the second part of you post about the Assasin, you are confusing a few things.

Weapons in pf2 fall generally in the categories of "simple", "martial", "advanced".

So, someone trained, as an example, "in simple and martial" weapons treats all the weapons under those categories as trained.

Similarly, someone proficient in "simple weapons plus bows" (a sorcerer with the Archer dedication as an example) gains proficiency in all weapons in the simple category plus the bow.

In the above case, it doesn't matter if the bow is a martial weapon because he directly gets said proficiency from a feature. Similarly, despite the bow being a martial weapon he is proficient in, it doesn't somehow make him proficient in other martial weapons.

Rogue is proficient with all simple weapons plus a few more specific martial weapons.

Now, going to Assassin, Deadly and Backstabber are weapon traits.

Deadly means on critical you do more damage, Backstabber means when you are flanking you do extra damage.

Those have absolutely nothing to do with Proficiency.

The Assassin feature basically makes all agile and finesse weapons having something extra, but it doesn't somehow make you more proficient wielding them.

---

All that said, I agree it's much easier to simply ask the GM to switch the core weapon proficiency of the Rogue to Martial+Simple instead of Simple+a few martial.

The specific weapon lists seem to me to be relics of the past.

Take note that if he does so, the latter class features that change trained to expert, and expert to master, should also properly change, or else it's kinda pointless.

[Mathmuse]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

"I once saw him kill three men in a bar...with a pencil." As you can see game master an assassin is highly motived, extremely resourceful, Quick to improvise and adapt to any circumstances to overcome overwhelming odds with share tenacity and bravado.

For a character to have an even chance against three 1st-level enemies, he would need to be 3rd level. To do it with an improvised weapon, add two more levels. For a pencil, make that three more levels instead. To be able to walk away unscathed rather than close to death, add another four levesl. John Wick built under PF2 rules would be at least a 10th-level character. Pathfinder 2nd Edition is rigorously balanced so that I predict this no matter what skills a John-Wick-based PF2 character would have.

All I know about John Wick is what I have seen in movie trailers, and I read the Wikipedia entry on the first John Wick film. The entry says he had been an hitman (modern assassin) for Russian organized crime. Assassins are different in fantasy stories. They are not unstoppable killers; instead, they are the careful killers who sneak in the middle of the night to take out their targets at their most vulnerable, often using poisons to avoid combat. An Assassin class in a fantasy roleplaying game would have more abilities to roleplay as a kick-in-the-door adventurer, such as weapons poisoned with a quick-kill poison, but PF2 only provides an Assassin archetype. This is a sign that being only an assassin is not enough to pull one's weight in a PF2 party.

Stories and games about assassins vary a lot. Examples from one source do not apply to another source. And highly skilled fictional characters require high levels on characters built to mimic them.

A rogue with assassin archetype can pull their weight in an adventuring party, but only by making good use of rogue abilites as a thief (stealthily scout, disable traps, and open locks), scoundrel (charm and deceive people), ruffin (intimidate and beat up enemies), mastermind (gather information and make plans), or eldritch trickster (trick people with stealthy magic).

XXSUPERHEROXX might do better to call their character an assassin but not give the character the actual Assassin archetype, because that does not fit the image of an intimidating, whip-wielding elf. For a John Wick alternative, consider that Ruffian racket says, "You might be an enforcer for organized crime, a highway bandit, or a noble who bullies others with threats of your family's power."

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

Just saying if John Wick can kill three men in a bar with a number 2 pencil I should be allowed to carry a whip and look cool.

Do you want a nonlethal whip, scorpion whip, or thorn whip?

[BloodandDust]

John Wick is not a Thief/Assassin. Wick is a Fighter/Assassin. His only schtick is being an efficient martial arts (mostly gun-fu) expert.

If you *did* want to run with the number 2 pencil option, there is a Stiletto pen (close enough) that works for Rogues and Fighter's alike. It is a Simple and Finesse weapon (perfect for Thief rogue), concealable, and throwable (not very far though). Your female drow could carry one over each ear and a use a third to tie up her hair :)

Also note that, in PF2e, stealth and thievery are not gated by class... a fighter can pick up those skills and push them to legendary over time just the same as a Rogue (although usually Athletics is a fighter's priority).
Basically, don't feel forced into Rogue if what you want is an Assassin's Creed style shadow warrior.
That said, I really like Rogues. They get a metric ton of skills and skill feats, so they are super versatile, while still being good in combat (just not as good as fighters).

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

It is awesome! How you all picked up the whole John Wick aspect. Yes John Wick is a very high-level character in the movies and is a bit when I say a bit I mean way over the top unrealistic. The three movies are set in a short span of time in which Mr. Wick takes a great deal of damage.

I was off playing with the Pathbuild app in which one can pick ancestry, Background, class, and heritage from dropdown menus it automatically tallies your ability and skills it also sets the skill the given skills to trained or expert.

then gives me a racket drop down menu blow that it list my abilities like Low-Light Vision, Darkvision, Sneak Attack, Surprise Attack and my Free Feat: Pickpocket. The point I am trying to make it that the whole Gamemasters discretion has been completely removed from the game. There is no flexibility any more in the digital game. it is set in rigid unyielding forms. Which it becoming the future of this and other RPG games. Even though Paizo sold out 8 months of hardcover books in the last 2 week! A year ago my 1st edition D&DA books were worthless now they list at 100-300 and more dollars.

Yes I could have picked a brute type class to mimic John Wick but I was not envisioning John Wick I was making Xelphen a small 4-foot 2-inch Drow rogue assassin that is a solo adventurer. Than used stealth and cunning to approach and attacked with dual dagger weapons. Given when assassinating some one I am sneaky but when it is time to fight like a cornered rat then fear and intimidation are a key play in surviving. As well when in a group to tant and distract a monster takes it's attention away from the other party members and gives them an advantage. Do to a lot of limitations I found I cannot make Xelphen in Pathfinder2e. But I did learn a great deal about the game and it's limitations.

I was on Pathbuilder last night to craft Theomacha my ranger and Xelphens lover on Neverwinter. When the thought clicked it was after I had posted the above post about Mr. Wick that there is zero flexibility in the game even if I could talk a Gamemaster in to allowing me to be trained in an alternative weapon I cannot change it on the digital forms. I would have to follow the rigid rule format and have to wait multiple levels to pick up a feat skill to allow it to be listed and change stats in my digit form.

Weird is there in no slot in the Character sheep for gender in less the trait slot is for the characters gender but I was of thought that the trait slot was for humanoid. This is not even on the digital form so there's that.

Now Stiletto pen sounds pretty freaking AWESOME! I had delusional dreams of grandeur having something like Danny Trojos belt of knives in the movie Desperado but instead of cross handles mine would be small, barbed fish-hooked blades that cannot be easily removed and would have a repeat exposer to poison as long as the blade stayed imbedded. The whole thought of using them as climbing spikes on large Monsters with Twin Feint was very appealing. But I digress I am off to look up Stiletto pen (evil wicked grin)

Anyways you all have made very good valid points and yet more awesomely great advice! Note I really love the word awesome! Given the whole Mr Wick aspect I did look into the other player characters allow in which none appealed to me as of yet. The Spite how ever did make me want one as Xelphens companion. She could be the voice of reason and keep me from falling back into my evil chaotic ways but with a Deadpool personality. Thank you one and all for your time and advice you people are AWESOME!!!!

[Pixel Popper]

There are ways to get around limitations in Pathbuilder. When you've opened a character, click to open settings and review the Feat Browser, Custom Ability, Custom Feat Choices, and Custom Skill Increases. You can also create custom buffs and Shields on the defense tab, weapons on offense, and other items under the gear tab.

For instance, if your GM allows Rogue to be proficient in Whip, create a custom whip as a Simple weapon then add it to your Rogue. Pathbuilder will treat it as any other Simple weapon for Rogue proficiencies.

DISCLAIMER Those might be premium options you'll need to pay for...

[QuidEst]

Also, just wanted to cover a few backup options for things similar to Rogue that let you use a whip effectively.

- Investigator gets extra skill feats and skill increases like a Rogue, but is more Int-based and focuses on one carefully calculated attack per round. They're less focused on combat and more on digging up secrets. They can specialize in alchemy, observation, or provoking people to the reactions they want. Less of a literal assassin and more of a political assassin, but still with a feeling of deadly precision.

- Thaumaturge is a charisma-based martial class that deals in exploiting and creating obscure weaknesses, as well as using esoteric implements. They don't get extra skill feats or increases, but the Time implement let's them pick two skills per day to be trained or expert in, and can be advanced all the way to legendary, and the weapon implement let's them get an extra strong attack of opportunity against one target. They are very good at boosting the damage of one-handed weapons and picking a target to exploit the weaknesses of, and a charisma base makes them good at intimidation. A Rogue stabs someone with a pencil in just the right spot to seriously injure them, a Thaumaturge stabs someone with a mystically guided pencil they poured a little holy water on.

Rogue probably still fits your concept best, but I did want to just mention a few of the other classes that can accomplish this sort of thing.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

OK small updates I did find the Custom Ability feature sadly it does appear to be a premium feature. I got lost in coding for most of the day programming tables like character sheets but more like stat data charts Forum code is great tell you click the preview and then click back to the code page it gets ugly at that point a paragraph of codes with no spaces LOL fun! Then I did a color scheme then my OCD kicked in as it was the wrong color and spent a great deal of time switching color codes.

So I made a few other characters Theomacha and Pixel. Pixel is a Sprite Pixie I have been looking to see just how tall and weight a small character is with zero luck, there is absolutely no definition of how big tiny is or small. I was hoping for 5 inches a pocket-sized pixie that looks human what would be cool is a succubus like imp but I digress. No matter It was just a follow up to the companion comment I wrote earlier.

I read a book series once where a ancient wizard I think his name was fizzbin not really sure he had a ancient dragon familiar in which it turned out the dragon was the mistress and the wizard was the dragons familiar. It would be interesting to play Xelphen and Pixel each thinking their the mistress and the other is their pet.

It was great fun to craft the Pixel and Theomacha characters to familiarize myself with the pathbuilder and programming links on the sketch pad forum. bluh bluh bluh I am thinking up the back story for Pixel but might change things still as pixies sound to big. Thank you for your time and advice I am off to look up those classes QuidEst listed.

[Arachnofiend]

A pixie is the same size as a goblin, so about three feet tall. If you want to be pocket sized you'd need to pick one of the other heritages (Luminous is the one that's a standard-looking fairy) and the drawbacks of being tiny are listed in the sprite's ancestry page.

[XXSUPERHEROXX]

Three foot would be way to large for one Player to have essentially, I would be controlling two characters. I was going for a Fey who has was very tiny who has become infatuated with a silver hair dark skin goddess with bright red eye. Who for the most part is stalking her emulates her. Continuously striving to amuse and win over the dark skins goddess who appears to be immune to she 18 lv. charisma. blah blah blah She came out great for the most part worthy of playing as a character you can check it out https://xxsuperheroxx.freeforums.net/thread/380/pixel-rouge-sprite-pixie

I made a Melixie Bard to which is a tiny character. Pixies are fey that are barely a foot tall in 5eD&D which is extremely large for something that is supposed to be the size of a butterfly in 17th century mythology. so 3 feet is mind blowing a three-foot tall flying butterfly.

Thank you for taking time to respond. I am learning a great deal about the gaming and it's dynamics.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

In 2e, pixies are a species of fae called sprites, along with grigs and most other small whimsical winged fae. Most sprites are Tiny, meaning they range about 1-2' in size (ie about as big as a cat), while pixies are the larger variation of sprite, likely owing to their heritage from D&D 3rd edition where they were Small creatures (2-4' in size, like goblins and halflings).

I don't think there us a size category below Tiny anymore...

[shroudb]

yeah, tiny can be anything from a single spider within a spider swarm to a cat or even a monkey.

something like tinkerbell as an example, would be a luminous sprite.

[Ravingdork]

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

"I once saw him kill three men in a bar...with a pencil." As you can see game master an assassin is highly motived, extremely resourceful, Quick to improvise and adapt to any circumstances to overcome overwhelming odds with share tenacity and bravado.

Those are not the traits of an assassin; that's pretty much every adventurer ever. XD

XXSUPERHEROXX wrote:

Just saying if John Wick can kill three men in a bar with a number 2 pencil I should be allowed to carry a whip and look cool.

You are allowed to carry a whip and look cool. Not sure why that has anything at all to do with John Wick.

Personally I think weapons with traits like disarm, grapple, shove, and trip are great even without training because they still allow you to add your potency rune's modifier to your skill checks to perform said combat maneuvers. For example, you can avoid attacking with the whip, since your attack modifier would be WAY behind, and instead use it exclusively for disarm and trip (with reach!) using your normal Athletics skill modifiers.

For example, let's assume you are a 5th-level rogue with 19 Dexterity, 14 Strength, Expert in Athletics, and no proficiency with the whip. You would have a +14 modifier to hit with your +1 dagger and only a +5 to hit with your +1 whip. However, you would have a +14 modifier to disarm or trip from 10 feet away with said whip.