Here's the scenario: a wizard (or whoever) casts Suggestion on an NPC. If the NPC successfully saves vs that spell then they realize that the wizard just tried to enchant (with spellcraft they can perhaps tell which spell) them.
Now you likely have an at least moderately antagonistic NPC.
I think that's all pretty broadly agreed upon. So, given that, how do you even use compulsion spells like Suggestion, or Sow Thoughts, or what have you?
I mean sure, if you're invisible and have a rod of silent spell then you're set. (Or some other combination of silent & still). But apart from those precautions, how does this work in your campaign?
Side note: This is motivated by the fact that the feat Spell Hex generally isn't very good. This is because (particularly past lower levels) it's not worth investing a feat to be able to cast a specific 1st level spell 3/day as a spell-like ability, even if it's with your hex DC.
Except perhaps for Sow Thoughts. Spell Hex (Sow Thoughts) could be rather nice, and Split Hex of course applies to it.
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Compulsion spells can be used to topple kingdoms, promote/destroy careers, divide families/allies, foment wars or rebellions, or even encourage lewd or sexual acts against a person's will, and these are all extremely evil things that no one wants. Enchantment (compulsion) is debatably the most evil school of magic (even more evil than Necromancy) in my opinion, so if NPC's pass these saves, then they're either running straight to the guards/authorities or outright attacking. If the NPC fails the save and then performs the task from geas/quest, suggestion, or sow thought and the spell ends, if the NPC realizes that they've been charmed, they're going straight to the guards/authorities as well.
I agree with Ryze, I am even currently in a homebrew campaign where necromancy is semi accepted because undead are good against compulsion spells, and the last big evil empire was run by compulsion specialists.
If you use some creativity with like, suggestion, it is an extraordinarily powerful ability. And its only 2 feats to cast it in in a hidden fashion (without using metamagic) if you go for concealed caster feat chain.
Compulsion spells used against hostiles, like, suggesting them to "yield!" or "surrender" are probably less well, hostile, if used in combat.
Northern Spotted Owl wrote: Here's the scenario: a wizard (or whoever) casts Suggestion on an NPC. If the NPC successfully saves vs that spell then they realize that the wizard just tried to enchant (with spellcraft they can perhaps tell which spell) them.
Now you likely have an at least moderately antagonistic NPC.
I think that's all pretty broadly agreed upon. So, given that, how do you even use compulsion spells like Suggestion, or Sow Thoughts, or what have you?
I mean sure, if you're invisible and have a rod of silent spell then you're set. (Or some other combination of silent & still). But apart from those precautions, how does this work in your campaign?
Side note: This is motivated by the fact that the feat Spell Hex generally isn't very good. This is because (particularly past lower levels) it's not worth investing a feat to be able to cast a specific 1st level spell 3/day as a spell-like ability, even if it's with your hex DC.
Except perhaps for Sow Thoughts. Spell Hex (Sow Thoughts) could be rather nice, and Split Hex of course applies to it.
so the premise is a bit off for PF1.
A) the caster needs to have line of effect(LoE)(assuming simple conditions in this case line of sight(LoS)) in order to choose a spell target. Likely the target has LoS on the caster also.
B) caster begins casting --> *Spellcasting Manifestations* so target and bystanders KNOW casting is going on and highly probable the guy doing the casting. PCs attack at this point if they can. IF any observer has Spellcraft they can make a check as a free action to identify the spell. (Spell has not been cast yet). Many GMs have the manifestations go off in the caster's square to simplify things, it's not unreasonable.
C) targets chosen, saves made, etc...
The attitude of a creature is simply tracked by 5 states, Hostile to Helpful, see Diplomacy skill.
see also Arcane Schools for explanatory text about the different sub-schools & descriptors.
Lastly Saving Throw vs Spells
You will be hand wringing for a very long time considering what bad or good things players will do with spells...
I handle compulsion spells like I do with manipulation attempts in real life, with an increasing level of hostility towards the source of the attempt, all dependent on how invasive the attempt was. Though Necromany (ie, messing with undeath) is still seen as the most horrific thing that you can do, as it interferes with natural process of life and a soul's journey. Your mileage may vary from mine.
For example: Suggestion as a spell is about as harmless as a fairly targeted advertisement on television (or in your social media). Annoying, but if you were already reasonably likely to engage in the activity, its not the worst of things. Though, that can vary wildly depending on just what kind of things you'd find 'reasonable' or not. You are not overriding their free will.
Command spell? That's assault. You are hi-jacking their autonomy. Perhaps it is justified in combat. Outside of it? Yeah, people are going to get pretty hostile fairly quickly.
Charm? Yeah, that person is going to despise you if they ever figure out you've mentally manipulated them like that.
We haven't even gotten out of the 1st level spells and this is the kind of results you can expect from my games.
Azothath wrote: this may be why nobody offers you a cookie or waffle in the game... {run!!!} lol... I have no issues if players want to play Evil or morally grey characters. But I don't pretend they are anything other than what they are.
And I get lots of cookies and waffles. Haha.
Spells aren't subtle by default. You have to concentrate and typically use components. Even characters without Spellcraft will usually know you're casting a spell.
IMO your best bet is to cast the spell with no witnesses. Don't cast Charm Person or Suggestion on the king in front of the court mage! Instead, get him alone. Of course, his court mage knows strategy and will try to prevent it... But that's just one more barrier the Enchantment-focused wizard needs to plan for.
I don't use manifestations and I minimise my reading. Eg Charm Person makes you a friend - ie you start as friendly for any diplomacy, nothing more.
They can be devastating used well. Deathess One appears to have the after effects well covered.
IMG: If the NPC fails the save, the spell itself muddles their understanding of what has happened unless it is a very direct compulsion like Dominate. Depending on how unreasonable the Suggestion or Command was, targets who failed the save and fail a Spellcraft roll could write the whole thing off as a momentary lapse of judgement and try to forget the incident or understand they were mentally controlled. Charms, the target forgets about that weird little greeting ritual you do. Others watching you will probably understand that you did something to the target.
Properly used Enchantments can be devestating, which is why most cultures that know about such magic will have some way to detect and/or protect against them if possible. Exactly how this is handled and how bad it is socially depends a lot on where in the world you are. Don't try it a place like Glantri or Alphatia - they will notice you and you will piss off someone more powerful than you. Some random orc tribe in the wilds will likely be your playthings.
Enchantments will generally work best if you use them either for a limited and specific objective - something that can be achieved before someone can do something about the target acting funny - or if you can control basically everything of worth at once. Controlling influential people unlikely to be the target of any investigations, such as the significant others of people with power, can also work for a long term goal.
That's a thoroughly helpful overview. Thanks all around.
Although this is a 1st Edition thread, looking at the 2nd Edition versions of the spells may be helpful, although you have to figure out what to do about the fact that 1st Edition doesn't normally have Critical Failures and Critical Successes. On the other hand, 1st Edition does have Conceal Spell, which you can use to have a shot at keeping both targets and other witnesses from realizing that you have cast a spell even if your target passes their Will Save, thereby achieving the 2nd Edition non-Critical-Success-Save effect, although at the cost of 2 feats (although in 2nd Edition you still need Conceal Spell to pull the wool over bystanders, and it's limited to Witches and Wizards -- anybody else has to multiclass to get it, and I didn't see any archetypes other than Witch and Wizard that get it, whereas in 1st Edition anybody can get it, and if you're Human you can even get it online at 1st level.
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I see it simple:
* Spells like suggestion are just that a suggestion. You do not have to do what the caster said, but you have the strong feeling of wanting to do it.
* Spells like charms do not change how you act, it just makes the caster seem like you best friend ever. If you would never do what the friend is asking you are not compelled to do it.
* Spells like dominate do change how you act, but you can and will try to resist it as specified by the spell.
* Finally spells like geas/quest do change how you act in so much as you have a new goal you want to achieve at all costs. But it does not affect your free will of how you try to achieve said goal.
In all cases most characters would feel at the very least annoyed that they got mind controlled, I would say most would even feel angry. But that is not to say a character can't decide to respect the caster for being good at what they do, or grow attached to the caster (Ex: Stockholm Syndrome).
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Great example is how many people IRL get overly attached to the idea of succubus and wouldn't mind getting charmed. While others would feel utherly violated.
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Temperans wrote: Great example is how many people IRL get overly attached to the idea of succubus and wouldn't mind getting charmed. While others would feel utherly violated. The magnitude of intensity of the sheer animosity I would feel would eclipse the yearly energy output of the sun. That might put it into context for anyone not acutely aware of how some people treasure their autonomy and free action. I don't expect I am unique in that level of reaction either, so I do not let it go unrepresented in the games I run. Be careful with those level 1 commoners. You manipulate the wrong one and they will find a way to ruin you.
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