That's not how KCC works. KCC allows you to make a RK check with a second skill, but not to replace the first one, just another RK check. So if you can't get information with Occultism this second check will give you no information.
Still, it's quite nice, I agree, as it allows you to use Bardic Lore as a backup to your Occultism RK checks. So, it's strong, but not overpowered.
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That's not how KCC works. KCC allows you to make a RK check with a second skill, but not to replace the first one, just another RK check. So if you can't get information with Occultism this second check will give you no information.
Still, it's quite nice, I agree, as it allows you to use Bardic Lore as a backup to your Occultism RK checks. So, it's strong, but not overpowered.
Other way around. First you try with Bardic Lore for RK on any topic. Then, if you failed, you retry with Occultism (which isnt' nerfed in the same way).
That does seem at least a little OP to me. Works pretty well with the Thaum's Esoteric Lore, too.
If you're going to assert that it only works in cases where both lores would apply independently, you're basically asserting that the feat is useless except in the edge cases. That interpretation clashes with the idea behind the flavor quote, too.
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That's not how KCC works. KCC allows you to make a RK check with a second skill, but not to replace the first one, just another RK check. So if you can't get information with Occultism this second check will give you no information.
Still, it's quite nice, I agree, as it allows you to use Bardic Lore as a backup to your Occultism RK checks. So, it's strong, but not overpowered.Other way around. First you try with Bardic Lore for RK on any topic. Then, if you failed, you retry with Occultism (which isnt' nerfed in the same way).
That does seem at least a little OP to me. Works pretty well with the Thaum's Esoteric Lore, too.
If you're going to assert that it only works in cases where both lores would apply independently, you're basically asserting that the feat is useless except in the edge cases. That interpretation clashes with the idea behind the flavor quote, too.
This won't work for Thaumaturges or anyone else with Duboius Knowledge as with that feat you will always get information for any degree of success/failure.
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This just seems ridiculously OP. What do people think?
It is really useful for MasterMind Rogues, Investigators, Ranger Monster Hunters, but not Thaumaturges (Dubious Knowledge).
But all Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover is really doing is giving you an extra universal lore
There are quite a few generic lores like this, so they are easy to pick up. I count 5 have I missed any?
Bardic Lore (from Bard or Loremaster), Gossip Lore from Dandy, Esoteric Lore from Thaumaturge, Rangers Master Monster Hunter with Nature, Unified Theory with Arcane.
Is it unbalanced? No consider that really for Mastermind it is enabling a ranged Rogue and a melee Rogue basically has flatfooted handed to them by Gangup already. Investigators are just getting some small bonuses.
Consider also Loremaster's Etude so you can just roll twice. Or Hypercognition
Yet people still think Recall Knowledge builds are so poor they are pointless. Why? It is the modifiers for Rare(-5) or Unique(-10) creatures. Which I have to confess I just ignore as a GM if every second creature in a module falls into this category.
But all Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover is really doing is giving you an extra universal lore
It's actually better than that - it's giving you another universal lore without penalties. Like, Bardic Lore and Gossip Lore max out at Expert. Esoteric Lore rolls with a penalty. Unified theory is only a psuedouniversal - it hits the big four, but not society or anything weirder. The lore you take Keighton's on need not have any such restriction.
It's true that Ranger's Master Monster Hunter gives you a full on no-limits universal lore, but it's also a healthy investment to get there.
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I mean, KCC is multiple feats, one of which is uncommon which requires either a DM buy-in or more feats to qualify, then a reaction every time you use it, in exchange for a bit of a bonus to a skill whose results are also entirely GM dependent.
It's definitely strong, but I'm not sure how out of bounds it really is given the costs and the multiple layers of GM fiat baked into it. Ultimately I feel like there are scarier things characters could be doing with archetypes and reactions than getting a bit of a bonus to RK.
That's not how KCC works. KCC allows you to make a RK check with a second skill, but not to replace the first one, just another RK check. So if you can't get information with Occultism this second check will give you no information.
Still, it's quite nice, I agree, as it allows you to use Bardic Lore as a backup to your Occultism RK checks. So, it's strong, but not overpowered.Other way around. First you try with Bardic Lore for RK on any topic. Then, if you failed, you retry with Occultism (which isnt' nerfed in the same way).
That does seem at least a little OP to me. Works pretty well with the Thaum's Esoteric Lore, too.
If you're going to assert that it only works in cases where both lores would apply independently, you're basically asserting that the feat is useless except in the edge cases. That interpretation clashes with the idea behind the flavor quote, too.
If you allow that interpretation, you are basically stating that KCC is automatic advantage on all Recall Knowledge checks using a specific skill and on top of that you can use a more advantageous skill for the second roll.
Like, if you take it 4 times, you can reroll all your Recall Knowledge on the same skill which is the only one you have to increase.It becomes better than Unified Theory, which is considered a good level 15 Legendary skill feat.
It's definitely far too good to be true. My interpretation is more limited but still quite useful and at least on par with a level 4 skill feat.
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You have headed off on a tangent. There is nothing stating you can take it a second time, so by the general rules on feats you can't take it again.
KCC pairs up only two lore skills. It is also only 2 skills.The evidence that the second skill does have to be directly relevant is from the text even from the most unlikely of sources and the text reattempt the triggering check in KCC.
Again I refuse to accept the dismissal of printed text as just flavour text.
The cost is your reaction. That is not insignificant.
Yes I agree it is strong for certain builds. I'm not seeing it as a problem though.
You have headed off on a tangent. There is nothing stating you can take it a second time, so by the general rules on feats you can't take it again.
You're right.
Yes I agree it is strong for certain builds.
Strong? It is completely out of bounds you mean.
What's the point in getting above Trained in Society if you can entirely replace the skill with a level 4 feat (Society is nearly exclusively about Recall Knowledge). Similar abilities are either super high level (Unified Theory) or based on class feats (Monster Hunter, Loremaster Etude).And I don't speak of the OP combo that makes everything even more crazy as now you are rolling all your Recall Knowledge checks twice using the skill of your choice.
I definitely consider this reading to be too good to be true.
I don't say it is wrong or whatever, it is definitely a valid RAW reading. Mine is maybe a bit more far fetched, but it is also consistent with the wording of "You immediately reattempt the triggering check using the other chosen skill." and at least it doesn't get out of control.
Edit: It's funny to see how we can have very different visions of balance. We have been together in a lot of balance discussions and depending on the situations we are on the permissive side or on the limiting side, but not always on the same side.
Mark Seifter mentioned on a book of the dead stream that Cognitive Crossover works like SuperBidi is arguing for.
Obviously this is not rule text and I think Mark even had quit at this point but might be helpful if someone wants to divine the RAI for this feat.
Happy to be on the RAI side this time. As I follow Mark's rulings even when I dislike them (Familiars...), I will apply this version of KCC during my games.
I still think it's a very valuable feat. I can't count the number of times I had to roll an Arcana or Occultism check or a Religion or Arcana check while raising both skills with my character and ending up with the same chances of success than if I had raised only one skill. At least, it will reward the investment.
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Mark Seifter mentioned on a book of the dead stream that Cognitive Crossover works like SuperBidi is arguing for.
Obviously this is not rule text and I think Mark even had quit at this point but might be helpful if someone wants to divine the RAI for this feat.
I don't think the developers are that reliable for this sort of statement. But thanks for the info. I don't think I'll change my position based on this as I'm happy with what the rules say.
But even if you go with this interpretation, you still can back up with one of the five universal lore types with another and you are getting full value.
Then there are some other combinations. Example back Gossip Lore with Society, and always try Gossip lore first - there is no significant gap there for the GM to change DC or modifiers.