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Random thought I had while helping a player build a character. They give you very little on your own (Inventor gives you a single trained skill and a skill feat, gunslinger is just a trimmed down version of fighter dedication which had already been complained about ad nauseum in the past).
Summoner Dedication too, although they seem to have gotten back in stride and made the DA classes at least a little interesting.
Not much else to say about it, and I doubt Paizo is interested in making them more compelling down the road, but it's a bit of a shame as they're conceptually cool.
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The Inventor Multiclass Dedication with Construct Innovation gives a prototype construct companion. That seems flavorful and useful enough despite not being as useful as the Druid Multiclass Dedication with Animal Order which gives an animal companion and two cantrips.
As for the Gunslinger Multiclass, I thought the multiclass the 2nd best choice for building an NPC, time oracle Amelia Rivercast. Because time oracle's curse gives the enfeebled condition, ranged weapons were her best option for Strikes, especially since I was building Amelia for movement speed. But oracles are trained in only simple weapons, and the reloading of crossbows would have used too many actions. Running Reload feat was an elegant solution, because my fast time oracle could reload while showing off her speed. The best archetype that offered Running Reload was Archer, but the training in all bows would have made Running Reload unnecessary as Amelia would swap out her crossbow for a longbow. The Gunslinger Multiclass archetype was the 2nd best archetype for Running Reload and kept the movement-based flavor.
I was not totally happy with Gunslinger Multiclass archetype. Running Reload is class feat 4, so Amelia obtained it through Advanced Shooting. Advanced Shooting has the prerequisite Basic Shooting, which gives a 1st- or 2nd-level gunslinger feat. But the gunslinger feats at those levels did not suit Amelia. I settled for Fake Out. A mismatch in styles is common for archetypes selected to make up a deficiency in the primary class, but the prerequisite annoyed me as a feat tax.
I used Summoner Multiclass on a NPC champion Colga. I gave her a devotion phantom who was a thousand-year-old ghost named Rathan. She made explaining the ancient history of Kraggodan simpler. The lack of Act Together made Rathan usually stand around being useless in combat, but she did make a good scout to peek into the next room and find hidden enemies. And Colga was a perfectly good paladin of Trudd despite spending two feats on the Summoner Multiclass.
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Random thought I had while helping a player build a character. They give you very little on your own (Inventor gives you a single trained skill and a skill feat, gunslinger is just a trimmed down version of fighter dedication which had already been complained about ad nauseum in the past).
Summoner Dedication too, although they seem to have gotten back in stride and made the DA classes at least a little interesting.
Not much else to say about it, and I doubt Paizo is interested in making them more compelling down the road, but it's a bit of a shame as they're conceptually cool.
Inventor gets you a skill, class DC's and a 7th level skill feat: I think you skimmed over the fact that it's a 7th level skill feat and that's something you don't normally get with a multiclass dedication. Now it'll depend on your game [if you got plenty of downtime and how hard it is to get formulas], so it could range from great to near useless but it's something the class has too.
Gunslinger dedication: With Archer, getting ranged weapon proficiency isn't that tempting unless you REALLY want a firearm. That has more to do with how GOOD Archer is that how bad gunslinger is. So it's really up to the follow up feats here.
Summoner dedication: Well, I'm not overly thrilled with the class itself so getting Eidolon-lite without tandem actions is even less appealing.
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The Inventor Dedication itself doesn't give as much as some, but the Inventor skill feat (early, if taken before 7th level) and a basic innovation isn't bad. However, the Brilliant Crafter archetype feat is one of the few ways to get auto-scaling skill increases.
The Gunslinger Dedication is probably less impressive, but becoming trained in simple and martial firearms (and crossbows, if applicable) could be useful for some classes. However, it's probably better to look at other ways of becoming trained in a specific firearm (if not trained in all simple weapons) and/or taking one of the other gun-focused archetypes.
The Inventor Multiclass Dedication with Construct Innovation gives a prototype construct companion. That seems flavorful and useful enough despite not being as useful as the Druid Multiclass Dedication with Animal Order which gives an animal companion and two cantrips.
I'll concede prototype companion is interesting, albeit not very great and difficult to improve.
On the other hand, a multiclass weapon inventor saves all of a couple GP (but not realy, because you don't save any money buying a rune over a magic weapon).
Inventor gets you a skill, class DC's and a 7th level skill feat: I think you skimmed over the fact that it's a 7th level skill feat and that's something you don't normally get with a multiclass dedication.
I didn't skim over it, but level 7 or no it's still a very situational feat. To be honest, in many campaigns it's almost a write-off. It's not Kip Up or anything. Class DC is a gimme for a multiclass, and a class feat for a skill is just bad value.
I guess I can agree that if you're in the very specific kind of campaign where the Inventor skill feat is strong, being able to grab it at level 2 is fairly compelling. But in other campaigns, or if you just want to make your character feel like more of an inventor? It just does not give you much (and that's without analyzing the issues with its later options either). The innovation doesn't do anything on its own, it's almost not even a feature if you aren't picking construct. Contrast with psychic giving you access to something cool with the initial feat. Or Acrobat giving you skill progression through the dedication (while Inventor wants two feats for that).
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Random thought I had while helping a player build a character. They give you very little on your own (Inventor gives you a single trained skill and a skill feat, gunslinger is just a trimmed down version of fighter dedication which had already been complained about ad nauseum in the past).
Summoner Dedication too, although they seem to have gotten back in stride and made the DA classes at least a little interesting.
Not much else to say about it, and I doubt Paizo is interested in making them more compelling down the road, but it's a bit of a shame as they're conceptually cool.
Inventor is really strong. A skill to Legendary for 2 feats is extremely rare. And Clockwork Celerity is kinda crazy for Maguses and any class with tough action economy (even if it's expensive to grab).
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I find Inventor dedication to be rather strong as well. Auto-legendary crafting, a die upgrade for simple weapons or resistances and some of the feats like Searing Restoration, Clockwork Celerity or Visual Fidelity are really, really good for some specific builds.
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Guys, I think Squiggit is comparing multiclass dedication feats not archetypes. Now I agree Inventor multiclass has some good feats but listing cool/good archetype feats is beside the point when you're JUST comparing the first feats against each other.
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Guys, I think Squiggit is comparing multiclass dedication feats not archetypes. Now I agree Inventor multiclass has some good feats but listing cool/good archetype feats is beside the point when you're JUST comparing the first feats against each other.
Oh, I see. My bad then.
In that case, I think I have to agree, both base feats are pretty meh compared to the likes of most CRB dedication feats.
Guys, I think Squiggit is comparing multiclass dedication feats not archetypes. Now I agree Inventor multiclass has some good feats but listing cool/good archetype feats is beside the point when you're JUST comparing the first feats against each other.
Ah, that undermines my analysis in comment #2.
Amelia was built at 8th level and I chose the gunslinger archetype for her for the 4th-level gunslinger feat Running Reload. All she received from the Gunslinger Multiclass Dedication was training in Stealth and training in martial crossbows and firearms. And she uses a simple crossbow.
Colga was 12th level, and I just wanted a devotion phantom eidolon for her. I cannot talk of her exact feats, because I built her by simplified NPC rules, but her eidolon Rathan had the ability to go incorporeal, similar to the 6th-level summoner feat Phase Out. I had an annoying plot puzzle in which I needed a Kraggodan representative who could talk to the party while the deep underground door to Kraggodan remained barred closed. An incorporeal phantom eidolon was the solution. The Summoner Multiclass Dedication does not grant Phase Out to an eidolon.
Neither character was built to exploit just the Multiclass Dedication. In contrast, the rogue Sam in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign took Sorcerer Dedication at 2nd level, which granted him two cantrips and two skills. His 4th-level feat was the rogue feat Magical Trickster, which grants sneak attack with his spells. He benefited from the Sorcerer Multiclass Dedication without any other Sorcerer Multiclass archetype feats for four levels.
The Inventor Multiclass Dedication with Construct Innovation gives a prototype construct companion. That seems flavorful and useful enough despite not being as useful as the Druid Multiclass Dedication with Animal Order which gives an animal companion and two cantrips.I'll concede prototype companion is interesting, albeit not very great and difficult to improve.
If we are talking only about the Multiclass Dedication feat, then "difficult to improve" no longer matters because improvement would come from additional feats.
If it's just about the Dedication, then I agree. But I'd say that it's the case for most multiclass Dedications (I consider that as a cost to access a large amount of feats unlike other Dedications that are giving direct advantages but are also more limited in the feats they provide).
Also:
Summoner Dedication too
Summoner Dedication gives you the Eidolon right away. So it definitely gives you a lot. There are challenges to play a Summoner with the Dedication, but it's wrong to say it gives nothing.
the DA classes at least a little interesting.
A little? I find Psychic Dedication to be strict power creep. It's the only class Dedication that gives you a Focus Spell right away, from a list of choice on top of it.
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I think the Inventor dedication is mostly there to enable character concepts. For better or worse, the Inventor skill feat is otherwise locked to 7th level characters but the concept of "person who invents things" is not something that should take until 7th level to come online.
It is also the only way to get around formula access rules, which are a bit of a mess. Whether that matters will vary from campaign to campaign, but if you're playing a campaign with zero shopping it could be very important indeed.
Which isn't to say it is an incredible dedication... But then again neither are most of the martial class dedications. Outside of extra skill trainings, we have:
Fighter: does nothing for most martials, and can be covered by ancestry feats.
Barbarian: Watered down rage. The extra 2 points of damage will matter a lot less than the penalty to AC in the long run and the temp HP only gets you so far.
Ranger: Hunt Prey without an edge is pretty niche.
Champion: The sentinel dedication is strictly better for most builds.
Monk: Basically just enables punching concepts, and can mostly be covered by 1st level ancestry options.
Rogue: Actually decent, but mostly just for skills, much like the Inventor.
Martial multiclass dedications just aren't that good on the whole. I think they are meant to be a feat tax because their 4th level feats onward can be really strong, like providing early access to attack of opportunity and such.
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The Inventor Multiclass Dedication with Construct Innovation gives a prototype construct companion. That seems flavorful and useful enough despite not being as useful as the Druid Multiclass Dedication with Animal Order which gives an animal companion and two cantrips.
Um, I think you may be either confused or are trying to compare apples to oranges here because while the Inventor MCA gives an innovation directly the Druid Dedication + Animal Order selection does NOT grant the Animal Companion, instead, it qualifies you as the chosen order but these PCs still have to wait until level 4 and grab Basic Wilding in order to pick up the Animal Companion Feat which makes the Inventor pull out pretty far ahead of the Druid if we are only considering the Dedication itself.
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The Inventor Multiclass Dedication with Construct Innovation gives a prototype construct companion. That seems flavorful and useful enough despite not being as useful as the Druid Multiclass Dedication with Animal Order which gives an animal companion and two cantrips.Um, I think you may be either confused or are trying to compare apples to oranges here because while the Inventor MCA gives an innovation directly the Druid Dedication + Animal Order selection does NOT grant the Animal Companion, instead, it qualifies you as the chosen order but these PCs still have to wait until level 4 and grab Basic Wilding in order to pick up the Animal Companion Feat which makes the Inventor pull out pretty far ahead of the Druid if we are only considering the Dedication itself.
Oops, I did not pay proper attention to the sentence, "You don't gain any other abilities from your choice of order," in the Druid Multiclass Dedication. Thank you, Themetricsystem, for the correction.
Ordinarily, I would blame my mistake on a hasty reading, but two weeks ago I had looked up all the archetypes that would immediately give an animal companion because the gnome rogue Binny in my party wanted to adopt a jubjub bird as an animal companion as she leveled up to 16th level. This had precedent, because back at 8th level the stormborn druid had adopted the animal companion of a defeated enemy by taking Order Explorer druid feat to gain Animal Order.
Thus, I searched the archetypes for Binny's player, found Animal Trainer, Beastmaster, Cavalier, Druid Multiclass, Mammoth Lord, and Ranger Multiclass, and rejected Ranger Multiclass because it required a separate feat for an animal companion. I guess I mixed up gaining a druidic order via Order Explorer, which gives all the benefits, with gaining a druidic order via Druid Multiclass Dedicatation, which gives only the order's anathema and skills. I think of the order abilities of a druid as more iconic than its primal spellcasting.
With Druid Multiclass Dedication giving only two skills, two cantrips, and the anathema of its order, that dedication seems lackluster, too.
Fortunately, I can put that mistake behind me, because Binny's player chose Mammoth Lord archetype instead of Druid Multiclass. We statted out the jubjub bird companion by modifying the Terror Bird animal companion.
The Gunslinger Dedication feat is very good if you have limited access to weapon proficiencies, so for all non-martial characters. The value of the Gunslinger archetype for martials is almost parallel to the value of the fighter archetype for martials, which is access to feats and abilities that are really useful for specific fighting styles otherwise pretty class restricted.
If you are using a reload weapon, the only action economy booster that is generally available to you though baseline archetypes is running reload. It is a good option, but the gunslinger is the only class that gives you other options to do with your reload that don't feel like you are wasting your actions.
The shootist archetype can give you a couple of other options, which is cool, but is narratively restricted by requiring you to essentially have trained with drow to gain access. I would be more restrictive with it as a GM than I would be with the Gunslinger dedication, and I imagine many other GMs would as well.
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The Dedications might be kinda eh, but both classes have really nice archetype feats, and both classes have some nice low levels class feats. My alchemist uses Brilliant Inventor and Reverse Engineer to gain an autoscale on my main skill, plus the ability to use said skill to take down traps and locks, which frees up my skill advances for broading out my abilities.
Gunslinger is pretty nice too, with access to handy reactions like Fake Out and reload actions that boost economy; risky reload is nice for getting more lead downrange, the way reloads are mostly pretty nice depending on fighting style, etc. Alchemical Shot is also functionally a better power attack for guns. All in all, very handy.
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More things on Inventor:
-It gives access to Searing Restoration, which is functionally a focus heal
-Clockwork Celerity is pretty nice tool to get more actions when you really need them, and as a level 12 feat via archetype, it comes in at roughly the same time as other on off quickening abilities like quicken spell
-Basic Modification lets you add weapon properties onto your gear that normally wouldn't be available. Not the greatest for ranged weapons, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a str martial that wouldn't mind tacking grapple and trip onto their polearm, flickmace, or asp coil or what have you. The armor is less flashy, but nice in themed campaigns, or for off setting friendly fire damage for splash or AoE users
-Gadgets aren't the flashiest, but things like the electroshock pads that quicken you, blast boots, and rocket skates are all nice action economy hacks or mobility enhancements that pay themselves off really quick
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The Gunslinger Dedication feat is very good if you have limited access to weapon proficiencies, so for all non-martial characters.
I'd argue that Archer is strictly better for that [it offers martial ranged weapons with an autoscaling proficiency]. It's only good if you have limited weapons access AND you really, really want to use a firearm for whatever reason.
Ranger: Hunt Prey without an edge is pretty niche.
I actually like Hunt Prey, as it has usage outside of combat and has multiple versions that can add benefits to it. A +2 Perception to Seek, +2 Survival to Track and ignore your second range increment penalty isn't bad for a 2nd level feat especially when you can spend the action out of combat. I rank it the highest of martial multiclass benefits as it stays useful through all your levels.
I used, and seen others use use hunt prey without an edge on a regular basis: I had it on an investigator and it was a great companion to Pursue a Lead as I could Hunt Prey as a single action without having to take a minute out and shuffle around my 2 leads and the extra range came in handy occasionally. It doesn't hurt that it gives out +2's, so even when my lead and my prey overlapped, I got an extra +1 over what I'd normally get.
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The Gunslinger Dedication feat is very good if you have limited access to weapon proficiencies, so for all non-martial characters.I'd argue that Archer is strictly better for that [it offers martial ranged weapons with an autoscaling proficiency]. It's only good if you have limited weapons access AND you really, really want to use a firearm for whatever reason.
Ranger: Hunt Prey without an edge is pretty niche.I actually like Hunt Prey, as it has usage outside of combat and has multiple versions that can add benefits to it. A +2 Perception to Seek, +2 Survival to Track and ignore your second range increment penalty isn't bad for a 2nd level feat especially when you can spend the action out of combat. I rank it the highest of martial multiclass benefits as it stays useful through all your levels.
I used, and seen others use use hunt prey without an edge on a regular basis: I had it on an investigator and it was a great companion to Pursue a Lead as I could Hunt Prey as a single action without having to take a minute out and shuffle around my 2 leads and the extra range came in handy occasionally. It doesn't hurt that it gives out +2's, so even when my lead and my prey overlapped, I got an extra +1 over what I'd normally get.
I actually agree with you on Hunt Prey-- it has real utility, but it is still kinda niche for specific builds, concepts, and campaigns. That's about where I'd peg the Inventor skill feat as well.
Yeah this is less a GnG problem and more a martial multiclass problem. ¯\_('v')_/¯ Martial dedications were sick in the stage of the playtest when you'd get a small assortment of proficiencies and a (usually limited-use) class-specific benefit, but that was probably deemed too powerful and general or something. Alongside the introduction of proficiency scaling issues, it's become more likely than not that whatever you get from a martial dedication doesn't scale, is totally redundant, or is a skill. The upside is their later feats being more generally useful and synergistic — bonuses to core stats and saves, and powerful and reusable class feats that sometimes even stack.
Contrast caster multiclass archetypes, which are almost always useful to anyone but take a lot of feats scaling their main feature, almost never synergize with one another, and regularly offer weaker or less applicable feats compared to a caster of their main class. (Summoner is not a direct power increase but it is the only option I know of which lets you bring in and play an entire sapient second character with niche exploration benefits and the ability to actually do things in general. Familiars aren't quite that.)
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I think the Inventor dedication is mostly there to enable character concepts. For better or worse, the Inventor skill feat is otherwise locked to 7th level characters but the concept of "person who invents things" is not something that should take until 7th level to come online.
It is also the only way to get around formula access rules, which are a bit of a mess. Whether that matters will vary from campaign to campaign, but if you're playing a campaign with zero shopping it could be very important indeed.
Which isn't to say it is an incredible dedication... But then again neither are most of the martial class dedications. Outside of extra skill trainings, we have:
Fighter: does nothing for most martials, and can be covered by ancestry feats.
Barbarian: Watered down rage. The extra 2 points of damage will matter a lot less than the penalty to AC in the long run and the temp HP only gets you so far.
Ranger: Hunt Prey without an edge is pretty niche.
Champion: The sentinel dedication is strictly better for most builds.
Monk: Basically just enables punching concepts, and can mostly be covered by 1st level ancestry options.
Rogue: Actually decent, but mostly just for skills, much like the Inventor.
Martial multiclass dedications just aren't that good on the whole. I think they are meant to be a feat tax because their 4th level feats onward can be really strong, like providing early access to attack of opportunity and such.
Many builds don't get value out of a particular feat. Half the feats in the game are useless to most builds. But most of them do have a use for specific builds. A moderate portion of the archetype feats are useful in themselves. But that can be fairly specific. Typically you take them because you want at least one follow up as well. Ignoring the skills:
Alchemist, Int 14: A few simple alchemical items per day
Barbarian, Str 14 Con 14: Rage for +2 damage -1AC. Follow up with the Instinct Ability for a few more points of damage but this is still only of occasional value.
Bard, Cha 14: Occult cantrips. Follow up with Inspirational Performance.
Champion, Str 14 Cha 14: Heavy armour proficiency. Follow up for Champion's Reaction, Healing Touch etc.
Cleric, Wis 14: Divine cantrips. Follow up for focus spells, or Deadly Simplicity to boost a simple weapon.
Druid, Wis 14: Primal cantrips. Follow up for focus spells such as Wild Shape.
Fighter, Str 14 Dex 14: Proficiency in simple and martial weapons. Follow up with Opportunist for a reaction, Basic Maneuver for Double Slice, Point-Blank Shot and others. But if you want something specific a combat style archetype is often easier.
Gunslinger, Dex 14: Proficiency in most crossbows and firearms. Some nice follow up feats like Slinger's Readiness with Drifter, or Fake Out, or Pistol Twirl.
Inventor, Int 14: An Innovation which is only really useful by itself if it is a Construct Companion, or you buy followup feats. But the construct companion is perfectly good.
Investigator, Int 14: Some detective stuff. But probably only worthwhile if you follow up with Investigator's Stratagem which is close to a true strike every turn.
Magus, Str or Dex 14, Int 14: Arcane cantrips. But the followup spell casting is worse. You want this for Spellstriker once per ten minutes, or maybe because you have a free hand problem and want your weapon to be your focus.
Monk, Str 14 Dex 14: A d6 lethal unarmed attack. People take this to eventuallly get Monk's Flurry for an extra unarmed attack.
Oracle, Cha 14: Divine cantrips. Only take this if you want to go for First Revelation for a focus spell, and you are happy with a curse.
Psychic, Int 14 or Cha 14: One special cantrip and a focus point to Amp it.
Ranger, Dex 14: Hunt prey - which I've never seen voluntarily taken even though it has some use.
Rogue, Dex 14: Light armour proficiency, chance for flat footed enemies on first round. Follow up with Sneak Attacker for +1d6 damage with limitations. Nice feats
Sorcerer, Cha 14: Cantrips of any one tradition. Follow up for a range of focus spells. Dangerous Sorcery because you like blasting and don't have another status buff
Summoner, Cha 14: An eidolon but none of the action economy to make it good.
Swashbuckler, Dex 14 Cha 14: Potential to gain Panache for +5ft move and a +1 circumstance bonus for a skill check.
Thaumaturge, Cha 14: Gain an implement. Which is essentially nothing till you also take Implement Initiate.
Witch, Int 14: Cantrips of any one tradition, and 1 ability familiar. Follow up for the focus spells.
Wizard, Int 14: Arcane cantrips.
Yes it is pretty ordinary for most. To me what stand outs just considering the dedication feat are: Champion or Rogue for an armour proficiency, Inventor for a companion, Pyschic for a cantrip and a focus point power. Next would be any of the spell casting options for some cantrips and the ability to use scrolls of that tradition.
I think we all agree multiclass feats as a whole are strong, but the point I was making is that the dedications themselves usually aren't.
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I think we all agree multiclass feats as a whole are strong, but the point I was making is that the dedications themselves usually aren't.
When you consider armour or weapon proficiency is typically just an ancestry or general feat then yes.
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With the summoner, even if you never manifest your eidolon in combat, it is still a scout that has all your skill proficiencies and can have an attribute spread good enough to make use of some skills even if you have tanked your attribute for them. The utility there is pretty incredible. Sure you might get yourself knocked out, but it can be from the safety of the rest of your party while the eidolon goes trapfinding/disabling or sneaking around. I think that gives it a pretty high end niche.
The problem is that the fantasy most people have of getting an eidolon is having it be a competent fighter and that will not work out well for you.
With the summoner, even if you never manifest your eidolon in combat, it is still a scout that has all your skill proficiencies and can have an attribute spread good enough to make use of some skills even if you have tanked your attribute for them. The utility there is pretty incredible. Sure you might get yourself knocked out, but it can be from the safety of the rest of your party while the eidolon goes trapfinding/disabling or sneaking around. I think that gives it a pretty high end niche.
The issue with that, you have an adventure by yourself while the rest of the party is just twiddling their thumbs and you're opening yourself to being attack in 2 different places and only 1 set of actions between you. Add to that that it's only at a range of 100', so scouting is questionable, and I have yet to see someone take the multiclass. No Act Together/tandem actions really kills it. I guess it could makes a good pack animal... :P
With the summoner, even if you never manifest your eidolon in combat, it is still a scout that has all your skill proficiencies and can have an attribute spread good enough to make use of some skills even if you have tanked your attribute for them. The utility there is pretty incredible. Sure you might get yourself knocked out, but it can be from the safety of the rest of your party while the eidolon goes trapfinding/disabling or sneaking around. I think that gives it a pretty high end niche.The issue with that, you have an adventure by yourself while the rest of the party is just twiddling their thumbs and you're opening yourself to being attack in 2 different places and only 1 set of actions between you. Add to that that it's only at a range of 100', so scouting there, and I have yet to see someone take the multiclass. No Act Together/tandem actions really kills it. I guess it could makes a good pack animal... :P
Yes it is terrible. In combat your best bet is to run away from each other, as that is often the fastest way to unmanifest it.
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To be clear, I agree with not wanting it manifested in combat. But there is a fair bit of out of combat utility possible from having a Eidolon that not even familiars and animal companions are capable of, AND you can put it away on your own without any additional investment.
An angelic Emissary for example can be a way for your rouge to be a face with a 8 CHA, and you could even be a ruffian rogue with a 12 DEX and still be very good at picking locks, disabling traps and any Acrobatics activities that you only need one character to perform. I think the investigator could use one pretty effectively as well.
Characters without a lot of skills might not get a whole lot of use out of it though, but it still has a pretty interesting niche.
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It IS essentially advantage on out of combat check knowledge checks. That is actually pretty good for a second level feat.
To be clear, I agree with not wanting it manifested in combat. But there is a fair bit of out of combat utility possible from having a Eidolon that not even familiars and animal companions are capable of, AND you can put it away on your own without any additional investment.
An angelic Emissary for example can be a way for your rouge to be a face with a 8 CHA, and you could even be a ruffian rogue with a 12 DEX and still be very good at picking locks, disabling traps and any Acrobatics activities that you only need one character to perform. I think the investigator could use one pretty effectively as well.
Characters without a lot of skills might not get a whole lot of use out of it though, but it still has a pretty interesting niche.
What murders this idea for me is that it doesn't get your skill feats and has to use one of YOUR feats just to get any at all: this is a big hit for someone playing a skill monkey like a rogue or investigator that get extra ones. For instance, that angelic Emissary face will often find itself with a –4 circumstance penalty to Demoralize when it can't use Intimidating Glare, isn't using Charming Liar to improve attitudes and can't Bon Mot or make a Discreet Inquiry or use Hobnobber or Sow Rumor... Or that ruffian finds they can't Steady Balance, Cat Fall, Pickpocket and Wary Disarmament.
But there is a fair bit of out of combat utility possible from having a Eidolon that not even familiars and animal companions are capable
This in particular I'll push back on: often it's JUST as good to have your familiar Aid you in a skill as it is to have an Eidolon do the skill: This is because you auto-make [or auto-crit] the Aid rolls. You can do this with a Diplomacy check to Make an Impression or Gather Information, any Deception or Thievery check and/or a Recall Knowledge on a particular skill. You can also get a straight up bonus to Perform and the equivalent of Intimidating Glare.
It IS essentially advantage on out of combat check knowledge checks. That is actually pretty good for a second level feat.
As long as you take twice as long since either one or the other acts in exploration. This also isn't necessarily a GOOD thing if one or the other isn't very good at them as it will just mean more incorrect info.
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It IS essentially advantage on out of combat check knowledge checks. That is actually pretty good for a second level feat.As long as you take twice as long since either one or the other acts in exploration. This also isn't necessarily a GOOD thing if one or the other isn't very good at them as it will just mean more incorrect info.
Out of combat you can almost always take twice as long on things, and the two share proficiencies if not ability scores so they are pretty likely to both be decent to great at the same things.
Even rogues are not taking all of the skill feats for everything. You can have the stuff you specialize in and then you can have the eidolon do what you are not specializing in. A ruffian might want some intimidation skill feats for themselves, but that is all for combat and then it will be a long while before you are picking up feats for acrobatics, recalling knowledge and any other social skills. For creating distractions, gathering information, making impressions it is very likely a +2 to +3 attribute bonus on these skill checks, and the ability to make these checks from 100ft away. Just being able to disable traps from 100 ft away from the party is pretty useful by itself.
Also, these are just complaints against the summoner class itself, not really something inherent to the multi class dedication.
Out of combat you can almost always take twice as long on things, and the two share proficiencies if not ability scores so they are pretty likely to both be decent to great at the same things.
You never know when you're going to be on a time limit until you are and my point about Recall is like it is for Aid; when the skill check has a Fail/Critical Failure, sometimes making the extra roll ends up being worse than just the one.
Even rogues are not taking all of the skill feats for everything. You can have the stuff you specialize in and then you can have the eidolon do what you are not specializing in. A ruffian might want some intimidation skill feats for themselves, but that is all for combat and then it will be a long while before you are picking up feats for acrobatics, recalling knowledge and any other social skills. For creating distractions, gathering information, making impressions it is very likely a +2 to +3 attribute bonus on these skill checks, and the ability to make these checks from 100ft away. Just being able to disable traps from 100 ft away from the party is pretty useful by itself.
I find that there is a limit to how many good [imo] skill feats there are and adding higher ranks into it it makes for a limited pool. And all the skills you note have some good feats attached that would be lying there while you main character is digging to find something for 'his' skills. As to "very likely a +2 to +3 attribute bonus", a familiar that's Aiding can net you a +1 to +4 just by spending the action on it, so it's not something great for a +2 or +3.
As far as a range trap disarmer... Well I guess if you got nothing better to fling at it. Remember that there is an open question if they can use lock picks [they don't have the Eidolon trait], so you have table variation if they can do anything more than jump on it.
Also, these are just complaints against the summoner class itself, not really something inherent to the multi class dedication.
And?...
Out of combat you can almost always take twice as long on things, and the two share proficiencies if not ability scores so they are pretty likely to both be decent to great at the same things.You never know when you're going to be on a time limit until you are and my point about Recall is like it is for Aid; when the skill check has a Fail/Critical Failure, sometimes making the extra roll ends up being worse than just the one.
Even rogues are not taking all of the skill feats for everything. You can have the stuff you specialize in and then you can have the eidolon do what you are not specializing in. A ruffian might want some intimidation skill feats for themselves, but that is all for combat and then it will be a long while before you are picking up feats for acrobatics, recalling knowledge and any other social skills. For creating distractions, gathering information, making impressions it is very likely a +2 to +3 attribute bonus on these skill checks, and the ability to make these checks from 100ft away. Just being able to disable traps from 100 ft away from the party is pretty useful by itself.I find that there is a limit to how many good [imo] skill feats there are and adding higher ranks into it it makes for a limited pool. And all the skills you note have some good feats attached that would be lying there while you main character is digging to find something for 'his' skills. As to "very likely a +2 to +3 attribute bonus", a familiar that's Aiding can net you a +1 to +4 just by spending the action on it, so it's not something great for a +2 or +3.
As far as a range trap disarmer... Well I guess if you got nothing better to fling at it. Remember that there is an open question if they can use lock picks [they don't have the Eidolon trait], so you have table variation if they can do anything more than jump on it.
Also, these are just complaints against the summoner class itself, not really something inherent to...
The vast majority of out of combat Recall Knowledge checks won't have time pressure. Even if you are on a timer, they take a single action-- less than six seconds. And if you have the proficiency to make rolling yourself a safe choice, than so does your eidolon.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen every player character in the party fail a knowledge or seek check only for the Eidolon to succeed. If got to the point where it was a meme in my group.
If a player thinks an entire class is a waste of time, why would they have any expectations that the multi-class dedication was going offer something desirable? The purpose of multiclassing is to replicate some of the abilities of the class. The summoner dedication does this effectively, it is just not going to be that useful for combat.
a familiar that's Aiding can net you a +1 to +4 just by spending the action on it
How? Last time I checked it was maxed to +2 and only to 4 different skills.
The vast majority of out of combat Recall Knowledge checks won't have time pressure. Even if you are on a timer, they take a single action-- less than six seconds. And if you have the proficiency to make rolling yourself a safe choice, than so does your eidolon.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen every player character in the party fail a knowledge or seek check only for the Eidolon to succeed. If got to the point where it was a meme in my group.
I've found that summoners usually min/max stats so if one has a good roll, he other doesn't. As such, I've see it the other way; I can't tell you how many times I've seen the Eidolon fail when the player succeeded. It works both ways and it StILL end up with you getting a wrong answer. And if you want to talk about memes, there sure are unflattering ones for the summoner... :P
If a player thinks an entire class is a waste of time, why would they have any expectations that the multi-class dedication was going offer something desirable? The purpose of multiclassing is to replicate some of the abilities of the class. The summoner dedication does this effectively, it is just not going to be that useful for combat.
Did you maybe forget the point of this thread? That of dedications that aren't that great? It's not about what I'D pick or YOU pick. It's about what we think are bad dedications.
a familiar that's Aiding can net you a +1 to +4 just by spending the action on itHow? Last time I checked it was maxed to +2 and only to 4 different skills.
Yeah technically the familiar itself doesn't have proficiency so it only maxes at +2, and only to skills you give it training in. Actually, it is only to specific actions to specific skills it has training in. There's a separate ability for gathering information and making an impression IIRC.
a familiar that's Aiding can net you a +1 to +4 just by spending the action on itHow? Last time I checked it was maxed to +2 and only to 4 different skills.
Well, it was to the skills that were mentioned [face thievery]. On the bonuses... Hmmm... I guess you're right. Clearly the game that it was used in used a house-rule or got the rules wrong: the game I'm recalling used the ranks as normal for familiars but that isn't the actual rules.
On the bonus though, it's still a +1 to +2 with explicit ability to use tools so it's as good or better than a +2-3 and a questionable ability to use tools and an inability to use magic ones. It's recall checks aren't getting your Pocket Library bonuses, your intimidation and a Demon Mask or even the ability to use the action [like treat wound or pick lock]: Until they clear up item use, it's hard to see them as having better bonuses.
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If a player thinks an entire class is a waste of time, why would they have any expectations that the multi-class dedication was going offer something desirable?
I mean, honestly, theres a lot of classes people might not want to play as, but would want some ability from. I, for example, don't have a lot of interest in playing a full inventor, but would enjoy playing a lot of classes with some inventor feats; or that I personally dont find the base champion too exciting, but am very excited at the idea of playing a caster with a champion mcd. Rogue is another, though this is less not being interested in them and more that my party always has a rogue, but I still like their skill mastery and Evasiveness feats. A lot of people treat the alchemist mcd like this too, adding a lot of handy tools onto a more combat focus chassis, or getting a lot more daily resources on a caster.
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To be honest I would love to see how PF2e would play if there was no multiclass dedication, and you would just pick whatever. Obviously still needing to meet the stat requirement and not affecting other archetypes.
Perhaps you should take a peek at the Hopefinder project that Jason B is working on if you get the chance, that uses the base PF2 core and hacks it into a more narrative and classless game that allows players to pick and choose with more freedom like this.
It's recall checks aren't getting your Pocket Library bonuses, your intimidation and a Demon Mask or even the ability to use the action [like treat wound or pick lock]: Until they clear up item use, it's hard to see them as having better bonuses.
The Eidolon benefits from your invested items, so you get the Demon Mask.
It's recall checks aren't getting your Pocket Library bonuses, your intimidation and a Demon Mask or even the ability to use the action [like treat wound or pick lock]: Until they clear up item use, it's hard to see them as having better bonuses.The Eidolon benefits from your invested items, so you get the Demon Mask.
Ah, you're right: I was thinking it wasn't an item bonus, since they only get that kind of bonus from items. Ok, no more posting for me until I ge some sleep... :P
Ah, you're right: I was thinking it wasn't an item bonus, since they only get that kind of bonus from items. Ok, no more posting for me until I ge some sleep... :PIt's recall checks aren't getting your Pocket Library bonuses, your intimidation and a Demon Mask or even the ability to use the action [like treat wound or pick lock]: Until they clear up item use, it's hard to see them as having better bonuses.The Eidolon benefits from your invested items, so you get the Demon Mask.
The Eidolon helping on skills is real. During the playtest I was vocal against it as in my opinion it's partly unintended and this power budget could have been used on more interesting options.
For me, the skill based Eidolon should be a choice, a cost (that you pay with feats) and not something you get automatically. Not everyone wants the Eidolon to be a skill helper (the Plant or Beast Eidolon who's nearly better than the Summoner in Nature doesn't fit the fantasy much).
To be honest I would love to see how PF2e would play if there was no multiclass dedication, and you would just pick whatever. Obviously still needing to meet the stat requirement and not affecting other archetypes.
Have you tried other classless games like savage worlds, gurps, etc? They were actually the systems I started ttrpgs on, and I find them a lot of fun to play. Funnily, this is actually a what could have been idea early on in development according to mark seifter in an interview
The Eidolon helping on skills is real.
Never implied it didn't. My debate was over it's help compared to other options, specifically Unicore saying "there is a fair bit of out of combat utility possible from having a Eidolon that not even familiars and animal companions are capable".