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What it says on the tin! I have 1 request though.
-Please let this be a discussion on what would a Bloodrager class look like, not a debate on whether or not a bloodrager has enough to be it's own class. I know that there are those that think a class archetype or an instinct would be enough, and I know some will even scoff and say just slap a sorcerer dedication, take moment of clarity and call it a day. I am not saying those wouldn't be valid alternatives but I would like this dialogue to assume it being a class is a given.
So that being said what would you like to see in the class
- Wavecasting or some sort of variant. I like how Paizo continues to mess around with slots to create various kinds of casters and I am here for seeing this happen again.
-The ability to cast spells while raging, it could be restricted someway so that it is only bloodrager spells, (and spells that are don't have the concentrate tag already)
- An ability that will let them cast a 1 or 2 action spell as party of entering their rage.
-This maybe a major conceit but I don't mind it being squishier than a barbarian to make the balance work. Ideally a d10 but if they can deliver on being a martial powerhouse fueled by magical blood and it be a d8, well I would be a bit sad but as long as the rest of the fantasy is fulfilled I would be fine.
-lastly Bloodlines should be unique to the class, and the class shouldn't be beholden to sorcerer bloodlines. I think some of the strongest 1e bloodlines in terms of themes and feel were the ones that didn't have a sorcerer equivalent or were allowed to diverge and explore different elements of said magical origin. I think they should feel different than the sorcerer.
A feat or an ability that lets them count as one level step better on saves against their own spells would also be really thematically appropriate
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I'll take it in just about any possible form. The fantasy is too cool to pass up, and I've always preferred both Barbarians and Sorcerers over Fighters and Wizards. That wild, almost monstrous power trip is so damn cool. Being a spontaneous wave caster who can cast in combat would be lovely, as would some sort of Spellstrike equivalent to sell that you fight with rage and magic together.
This came up in another thread recently and is impossibly niche for the base version of the class, but I'd love the 1e Nanite Bloodline that Numerian Sorcerers could have to come over to this class. Let me be a technological horror!
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I don't really believe the things that the Barbarian rage lets you do with your body go as far as I want, so if they're not going to give the really weird stuff to the Barb as instincts please give it to the Bloodrager as bloodlines.
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I don't really believe the things that the Barbarian rage lets you do with your body go as far as I want, so if they're not going to give the really weird stuff to the Barb as instincts please give it to the Bloodrager as bloodlines.
If we're not getting Shifter back, then by all means, stuff the fun "turn your body into some weirdness" into this. Natural weapons stuff has been really underwhelming in PF2, and both this and the Synthesist Summoner would help rectify some of that missing flavor niche.
I would like Bloodrager as an Instinct, one that gives a Sorcerer MCD for free (perhaps w/o a Cha minimum). If so, then I'd like spells gained through that Dedication to gain the Rage trait (because Moment of Clarity is too large an anchor on actions). Then it would need some feats too, which should be as cool as the other Instincts have. As for damage increase, maybe tie it to having cast a spell, hit by a spell, or being under the effects of a spell; or maybe be kind of the inverse of the Superstitious Instinct I suppose. I think that would be the smallest ask as well, though maybe too small for some. :-)
I think it'd be difficult (due to page count vs. interest) for Bloodrager (even as a full class) to include new martial variants for each Bloodline. Compare this to the space allotted for other martials' sub-types.
For the PF2 bloodrager, I want to be able to recreate my GMPC bloodrager Val Baine from my Iron Gods campaign. Then she can make a cameo appearance in my current Ironfang Invasion campaign.
That is a self-serving goal, but using a known character gives me a solid frame of reference. Val was an unstatted NPC, the kindhearted 13-year-old daughter of the missing wizard Khonnir Baine in The Fires of Creation. She was designed to gain sympathy from the PCs for their quest to find Khonnir Baine. However, due to the backstory of a PC who worked form Khonnir, I aged Val to 17 years old and the 3-member party invited her along as a 4th party member. The players suggested building her as a Savage Technologist archetype of the PF1 barbarian, but I had already roleplayed her as an apprentice wizard, so I compromised by making her a PF1 bloodrager with a customer archetype based on Savage Technologist. For her first three levels, she thought that she was casting spells by studying them in her spellbook, but really she was casting them from her inner bloodrage.
I went through nine versions of that customer archetype before it felt properly balanced, about one version per level until 9th level. Val Baine eventually reached 17th level. And because we also had a skald in the party, we also had conflicts between two different types of rage. Thus, I am familiar with balance issues about bloodrage.
The first problem with Val had been that both rage and cantrip spellcasting at 1st level was too much. I added the limitation that before 4th level she could cast spells only while bloodraging. Since PF1 bloodragers had limited rounds of bloodraging, that gave a bloodrage cost to spellcasting. At 4th level, the bloodrager was powerful enough to no longer need that limitation; furthermore, Val was largely using her magic for utility casting and supplementing her gunslinging, so the rage-casting was dropped.
This balance issue will also affect the PF2 bloodrager. I am familiar with wave casting in the PF2 summoner. The 1st-level summoner feels much like a 1st-level druid with an animal companion, so it is balanced before the wave takes spells away. Wave casting won't correct the imbalance in the 1st-level bloodrager.
So I turn to style for answers. What do we want out of bloodrage magic?
I want rage that sheds magic. I liked the bloodline powers that were more magical rage powers. I liked the automatics spellcasting from Greater Bloodrage. Contrarily, a raging barbarian or bloodrager does not need magic for battle. She has her strength. Thus, the magic is a supplement, not a primary weapon.
Bloodrage
Bloodrager, Emotion, Mental
Based on Rage from Core Rulebook pg. 84
Requirements You aren’t fatigued or raging (bloodrage counts as raging).
You tap into your inner fury and begin raging. You may Cast a Spell to cast the granted cantrip of your bloodline without concentration and without its components as you begin this rage. This frenzy lasts for 1 minute, until there are no enemies you can perceive, until you fall unconscious, or you cast a spell with the bloodrage trait, whichever comes first. You can't voluntarily stop raging except by casting a spell. While you are raging:
- You deal 2 additional damage with melee Strikes. This additional damage is halved if your weapon or unarmed attack is agile.
- You can't use actions with the concentrate trait unless they also have the rage trait. You can Seek while raging.
After you stop raging, you can't rage again for 1 minute. If you have a focus pool, a Bloodrage that lasts a full minute or more will restore one focus point to an empty focus pool.
Abberant Bloodline granted cantrip: daze
Angelic Bloodline granted cantrip: divine lance*
Demonic Bloodline granted cantrip: acid splash
Diabolic Bloodline granted cantrip: produce flame
Draconic Bloodline granted cantrip: dragon scales* (new cantrip that gives +1 to AC and resistance 2 to a selected energy type)
Elemental Bloodline granted cantrip: produce flame but of the bloodline's energy type.
Fey Bloodline granted cantrip: infectious enthusiasm*
etc.
* different from the sorcerer bloodline granted cantrip.
At higher levels, the bloodrager could cast focus spells rather than cantrips. I also imagine a series of cantrips with the rage trait that can be cast only while bloodraging but that end the rage immediately.
The little caveat "Bloodrage counts as raging" ends most of the conflicts between standard rage and bloodrage. For a bloodrager with barbarian multiclass, they can chose to Rage or to Bloodrage. Both give different effects--the rage gives temporary hit points and lower AC while the bloodrage gives a spell--and each prevents doing the other for a full minute.
As for slotted spells, they would be from one of the traditions: arcane, divine, occult, or primal, depending on the bloodline. The bloodrager would be a spontaneous caster with only two spells at each level, but I don't know whether wave casting will be necessary for balance, but fewer spells would justify better bloodline powers. As a spellcaster, at 1st level the bloodrager will learn one 1st-level spell but won't receive a class feat.
I feel like a focus spell caster is more likely. Rangers, Paladins, and Bloodrager were all 4th level casters. Then again, with barbarian feats already including so many explicitly magical abilities, you might need to get wave casting fitted in there for it to feel distinct enough.
Personally, I'd like:
-Take the magus chassis, but give 10 hp
-Bloodrage looks like barbarian rage, but instincts are bloodrager bloodlines
-Spontaneous wave casting, bloodrager spells have the rage trait
-access to combat focus spells; both in forms of mobility/buffs and blasts
-Class feats that focus on an aggressive playstyle with plenty of mystical flavor
Personally, I'd like:
-Take the magus chassis, but give 10 hp
-Bloodrage looks like barbarian rage, but instincts are bloodrager bloodlines
-Spontaneous wave casting, bloodrager spells have the rage trait
-access to combat focus spells; both in forms of mobility/buffs and blasts
-Class feats that focus on an aggressive playstyle with plenty of mystical flavor
What are they losing that the Magus has? This sounds like an improvement across the board.
What I want is mostly some pretty specific things that can be accomplished in a lot of ways.
- I want Glutton's Maw on a class that can use it without spending two multiclass feats to get it. Bonus points if it isn't tied to the poorly-fitting divine spell list. My recommendation? Have a "sorcerous bloodline" option or something that can slot in any sorcerer bloodline.
- I want to be able to play a rakshasa bloodline character who has martial prowess, arcane or occult spells, and a small collection of mind-reading and shapeshifting focus spells.
- I want to have an aberrant bloodrager that can grow their arms longer while using a weapon. Would love to see a return of Aberrant Familiar.
For a more design-oriented request:
- I don't particularly want it to toss around much by way of bonus damage, which admittedly probably entails a change in class name. We have barbarian, and we have thaumaturge. I'd like to see it spend its martial class budget on strong focus spells, cool bloodline effects to make it more distinct, and possibly "actually having room for wave casting".
What if it was a class who had access to a rage mechanic, but instead of instincts, it had focus spells that could only be cast as you went into a rage and they modified what the rage did. This could even build into things like a version of furry form that gave you access to one action cantrip attacks that could use your weapon proficiency instead of casting proficiency.