I like having big dynamic encounters where lots of things can be happening all at once, and have a bit of a reputation for it as a GM. I find this relatively easy to do with VTT maps, often just trying to use a pretty basic base map, and adding components on top of it, instead of having massive high resolution images. Even so, I generally top my maps out at about 100 5ft squares.
The problem is that 500ft is too small of an area to run adult dragon fights in. In one set of movements, the dragon can be almost entirely across the whole map, and if you want to have the dragons flying between buildings in a city, unleashing breath attacks, and then drawing heroes way out of position when they try to attack. I have tried doing this all theater of the mind, but I find PF2 players' characters have so many abilities that interact with very precise positioning, that the players get uncomfortable relying on the GM to describe the active combat zone well enough for the character to have a strong sense of their options.
I tried using a very large scale map, with a combat zone to break out into when the characters were in close, and it worked ok, but I worry it discourages some of the taking advantage of the environment when things like walls, rubble, and other features of the terrain are not big enough and laid out in clear enough detail.
I don't know that there is a great solution out there for this, but I was just curious how other GMs handle open air dragon fights and having the encounter space feel wide open and dynamic?
I've made some hellaciously large maps in Foundry, and while the background image can lose clarity, you can always add other images on top for cover, walls, etc as needed.
So, I think the success of you action will depend heavily on what VTT software you are using and what it can support.
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I feel like a dragon who doesn't want to be caught and uses his mobility to the max... Will never be caught. You basically need a reason for the dragon to land and fight-- be it a high value target it wants, or just sheer arrogance in thinking these monkeys can't possibly hurt it.
Regardless the situation, XXXXXXXX fights to the death.
I think I get the joke, but seriously, what does "EC" stand for?
Regardless the situation, XXXXXXXX fights to the death.I think I get the joke, but seriously, what does "EC" stand for?
Extinction Curse I would assume.
There are many Paizo dragons that "fight to the death" or who explicitly don't flee because yeah, they could simply up and leave or be nasty/cunning/frustrating and only engage in battle when they have their breath weapon recharged (or are quite well healed if they have such spells/abilities; gulp!).
ETA: As for the OP, I've had encounters with PCs stretched apart at great distances where we used markers to indicate distance, and the battlemat to get a general sense of scale (sometimes at 50' per square). Yes, some abilities require more precision, but I'd recommend playing a little looser if only for gaming ease and thus pleasure. Just make sure that's all out if front before the dice start rolling. I doubt a reasonable group would have qualms.
The group enjoyed the encounter, I think, but I just feel like I left some of the excitement off the table by not having more chase like scenarios ready to go when it started. I guess I hadn’t thought about that option because this party really hasn’t enjoyed social encounters or environmental skill challenges that cannot just be resolved in encounter mode. I’ve especially had trouble with encounters that shift from combat to something that had to move at a different pace.
It is something I plan to continue playing with though.
As far as dragons not using their speed and just standing still and getting pummeled in Melee, I just can’t play them that way. I’ve had one in a cave that was semi trapped, but able to fight from the water in some underwater tunnels that was fun, but as the party is getting up in level the monsters are just getting so large. I haven’t quiet hit the sweet spot with map size and encounter design at higher levels like I could with lower level encounters.
I feel like a dragon who doesn't want to be caught and uses his mobility to the max... Will never be caught. You basically need a reason for the dragon to land and fight-- be it a high value target it wants, or just sheer arrogance in thinking these monkeys can't possibly hurt it.
Fortunate that arrogance is a central conceit of the monster. A dragon that doesn't let its pride get the better of it is like a lich that doesn't sacrifice morality in pursuit of knowledge.
Size shouldn't be an issue as it is speed.
The more the party gains levels, the more the chances there will be large companions, huge druids/barbarians/eidolons, and so on.
Making the creatures smaller might ( depends the party) create some issues in following them in small passages, doors and so on.
The dragon speed, taking a red one for example, increase by 1/4 ( 40>50 land and 120>150 fly).
But I also think that 120 flying speed is already a "you can't catch me unless I want to" Situation.
Not really. By level 7 you should be rocking a minimum speed of 35 off a longstrider wand, more likely 40-45 with fleet and/or bounding boots or even 50 with nimble elf. Stride/fly+sudden charge+reach weapon covers 115-160 feet of range. Speed shouldn't be an issue unless you invested nothing in it. It's a very difficult scenario, but a strong enough party should be able to deal with a Severe hasted dragon in an open space with proper tactics, either defeating it or making it retreat from level 7 onward.
Before that point, it is significantly more difficult (probably impossible) as you lack flight options, possible level 7 items, a second general feat, casters not having their proficiency boost or 4th level spells, etc.
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The issue with fights at such speed is that parties tactical cohesion can quickly fall apart and dragons (especially higher level ones) are incredibly dangerous creatures to end your turn adjacent to, especially if the rest of your party can’t keep up. Expecting 4 players to all have invested enough in speed to be able to move 150ft in a turn and still be able to do more than just get shredded is a big ask.
Dragons are awesome creatures in that they can skirmish, tank, AoE, or focus fire on a single target. They are very, very good at exploiting parties that make tactical mistakes
I feel like a dragon who doesn't want to be caught and uses his mobility to the max... Will never be caught. You basically need a reason for the dragon to land and fight-- be it a high value target it wants, or just sheer arrogance in thinking these monkeys can't possibly hurt it.Fortunate that arrogance is a central conceit of the monster. A dragon that doesn't let its pride get the better of it is like a lich that doesn't sacrifice morality in pursuit of knowledge.
Agreed, but I guess my point was map size isn't going to be a big factor if the dragon decides to stand and bang.
I feel like this is a non-problem. Dragons should be terrifying and hard to kill.
Absolutely. It is representing this effectively in encounters that has never quite hit that sweet spot for me as a GM. I feel like dragons are smart and they know what their strengths are. Yes they can be arrogant and overestimate their abilities, but taking advantage of that should be something the players have to do on their own, not just expect the creature to stand still and be easy to kill. In many ways, I think dragon encounters should probably follow more of the rules for Kaiju until they can be trapped or otherwise engaged more directly. I just haven't had success splitting a combat encounter up into different kinds of encounters personally.
I know a number of video games that do this successfully, and I am sure there are some published examples I should be looking to, I just haven't really figured it out as a GM yet. PF2 works wonderfully for very large map encounters with lots of enemies doing different tasks, those encounters have gone really well for me, and my players really enjoy them.
I had a hydra attack a level 3 party on a boat, and that turned into a pretty fun chase/distract encounter, but that is because the speeds were much more manageable. Coming up with different encounter locations for essentially every round of combat (which is kinda what feels necessary with a high level dragon) is just not something I had prepared for. I think that might actually be the best way to handle it moving forward. I might try to have 4 200ft battle maps with lots of interesting terrain features prepared, and just have the dragon move from encounter location to encounter location, with the larger terrain map for the rounds where the party or the dragon is moving beyond the reach of the other side's ability to manipulate.
The issue with fights at such speed is that parties tactical cohesion can quickly fall apart and dragons (especially higher level ones) are incredibly dangerous creatures to end your turn adjacent to, especially if the rest of your party can’t keep up. Expecting 4 players to all have invested enough in speed to be able to move 150ft in a turn and still be able to do more than just get shredded is a big ask.
Dragons are awesome creatures in that they can skirmish, tank, AoE, or focus fire on a single target. They are very, very good at exploiting parties that make tactical mistakes
To me the issue is that parties that have been set up for dungeon crawling are faced with big open spaces. Too many modules have 30ft or less rooms everywhere. It can cause a very narrow response from players.
In my case, this is a homebrew hexploration campaign that included the slithering module. It has gone from 1 to 12 and 70 percent of encounters have been outdoors. The party has received a lot of mobility related treasure and isn’t hesitant to use consumables when faced with situations that call for them.
Even so, getting yourself up to a 60ft fly speed still puts you in a 2to 3 actions of movement to one for the dragon against a level 14 dragon. Being able to give yourself good energy resistance an help a lot, but spending 3 actions to move and make 1 attack against a level 14 dragon with haste is a good way to get draconic frenzied into the dirt the next round, and even if you are still on your feet, you probably have 150ft ft to go next round to catch back up.
It is definitely a different kind of tactical challenge than parties typically face and that can be fun or frustrating depending on your group. It is just also an encounter that can be difficult to run effectively as a GM and it has been useful to get some ideas about how to prepare it in the future. (The party fled this one, into some tunnels, and will likely treat the dragon like a hazard for a while in the city. It’s connection to their main objective seems tangential to them, so they might even try bribery, negotiation, or stealth to get through the city)
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By level 7 you should be rocking a minimum speed of 35 off a longstrider wand, more likely 40-45 with fleet and/or bounding boots or even 50 with nimble elf.
Says who? Joe Optimizer? Fie on that. My party is level 12 and all have a speed of 25 or 30, and they do just fine, even against aerial opponents. We've had a mix of indoor and outdoor fights (some at ranges measured in hundreds of feet), and the final fight of the campaign will be against a dragon on a very large map (taking up the entirety of my 4'x6' table. I suspect they'll do just fine there too, provided they prepare for it (which they very well should, considering it'll be the end of a years-long campaign).