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Oh wow hahaha, that post above was so long that I kind of made some weird spelling mistakes. Anyways, I meant " even after her own herald ascended...", and "Let the devil worshipping nation act develishly!". x(
How do we feel about an internal Hellknight reform storyline? "Too much evil too little law something something, the orders have been swayed away of their original intentions, Hell's hierarchy is fine but Hell's methods is NOT leading to more order", ascension of an order based on the order of the Axis or even Heaven instead of actual Hell, etc?
Axisknights or Heavenknight do not sound as cool as Hellknights, objectively speaking... And I don't think we have to go there? But I'd be open to exploring that theme and idea, as long as their visual identity is preserved. Yes yes, I like buff people in edgy armors, sue me!
But I'm curious to see what people think. To me, that Hellknights are supposed to be altogether LN is still odd, and there's so many weird situations, like the Order of the Nail's; considering the info that keftiu dug up... I'd personally preffer seeing them in less evil situations as to justify this, but maybe it's a little too late for even that?
The Hellknights got a slot alongside the Pathfinder Society, Firebrands, Knights of Lastwall, and Magaambya in LOCG, so I assume they’re meant to be a headlining faction eventually… but unless there’s some kind of reconciliation with what the Hellknights have been (tools of Thrune, agents of colonial violence and genocide), it’s awfully difficult to see them as Good or even Neutral.
I would hope for a proper schism to have occurred by the time PC Hellknights get the spotlight. As their lore currently stands, they’re magical Gestapo who either serve Cheliax or are stateless vigilantes - something any sane Goodly folk should bar from their borders.
As far as Hellknights go, what I most want to see is a clear definition of what laws they actually enforce. They have the whole Measure and Chain thing, but they also seem to enforce the laws of whoever hires them, but they can also be hired by non-governmental officials. It's just really hard for me to see them as lawful when the underlying structures that should inform their decision making process are so unclear/undefined.
Another thing that I would enjoy, but should probably be handled via story rather than background is unifying the Hellknights more. Right now the Orders are more like begrudging rival allies rather than a cohesive unit, which is another thing that makes it hard to see them as lawful. Ideally the Scourge would head this (possibly as a way to help survive/combat Abrogail), but I wouldn't even really mind if it was a different Order, so long as they all were unified.
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Okay, so I dug around a little and found some interesting information on the Measure and the Chain, on the Character's Guide. To recapitulate:
The Chain, however, is their actual philosophy, and it's pretty well defined. It concerns itself with three virtues: Order, discipline, and mercilessness. "But Sasha", you might say. "aren't those just abstractly-defined words? What does mercilessness even mean, if not cruelty? What's the difference between order and discipline?" Thankfully, the virtues are further defined!
Order is to be enforced — as to create a world that is so structured and peaceful that it no longer needs them. The order must also be punitive, and so it is correct to punish those that hold back that progress. To me then, they're militant: They seek to create a peaceful word through such order, and will fight for it.
Peace is not defined by the Chain, so there's a lot to prod there.
Discipline is about emotions. Achievment is obtained without loss, and so, emotions are, at best, a hindrance. Especially fear, which Hellknights will attempt to weaponize against their enemies. To them, it is through such discipline that they may obtain victory.
Mercilessness is an interesting one. Mercilessness teaches them that all are guilty, even Hellknights themselves, and compassion is damaging to society and ultimately inhibits social progress. As such, none is truly worthy of mercy.
Reading their entry on the Character's Guide, they come off as very self policing. It also mentions that there is room for morality and goodness in the orders, and while many evil hopefuls might think that they might found shelter within the ranks, they themselves end up being punished for their capriciousness just as much the enemies of the order.
The Measure not being defined itself gives writers room to pull whatever from whenever — which is both good and bad, I guess. Maybe there's a hidden line somewhere about excessive cruelty or whatever.
I will also point out that the Character's Guide really seems to portray the incredibly problematic Order of the Nail as "Adventurers - The Order", although they're not really well developed there I guess. Isn't it possible that they have been retconned or corrected in the second edition? We've been told that Paizo prefers to deal with things like this in that way, no?
I know that there's at least one kind of member of the Order of the Nail that comes off as incredibly reasonable in one of the APs, for example.
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It is worth noting too that there IS an element of hypocrisy to the ideal of emotionlessness the Hellknights strive for, right from the very start: Daidan Rhul's motivations were grief at his wife's murder and son's suicide, and rage at the cultists responsible for both, as well as the inaction of those who could have stopped it, ESPECIALLY the Church of Aroden. The original Hellknights more or less coalesced around him rather than being actively recruited, and codified that "lack of chill." I don't know if irony is the right word, but it's interesting to me that an organization preaching emotionless detachment to avoid clouding one's judgment is effectively very, VERY angry at the world for not adhering to the ideal lawfulness they wish it could.
It's kind of a theme that's writ larger across Cheliax as a whole and maybe even across the whole of Hell itself: they claim to be rational and ruthless because it's the only way to bring order and peace, but down at the core it's a much more emotional, IRRATIONAL motivation, angrily lashing out at a universe they think hurt them somehow. Whether it's Daidan Rhul carving a bloody swathe through Westcrown to avenge the deaths of his family, Abrogail Thrune Personally murdering Egorian's entire Iomedaean clergy with Iomedae's own sword out of spite for the Glorious Reclamation, Cheliax as a whole turning to diabolism and evil because they felt their grand destiny was denied because Aroden didn't have the decency to stay alive when he was supposed to, or Asmodeus himself murdering his brother Ihys for choosing the happiness of mortals over his brother's, it's emotional overreactions to bad turns of fate all the way down...
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The Measure not being defined itself gives writers room to pull whatever from whenever — which is both good and bad, I guess. Maybe there's a hidden line somewhere about excessive cruelty or whatever.
I'm not so much worried about what the Measure actually says, as I am how it's prioritized. Like when Queen Domina invited the Hellknights to Korvosa, it seems like they don't actually uphold Korvosan law, but instead hold up the Measure and Chain. Which I don't mind at all, and actually like, but it leads into several problems that to the best of my knowledge haven't been addressed in text before.
How are criminals prosecuted? Is it possible to be charged for the same crime by both the state and the Hellknights? Can you appeal to the state/Hellknights if you've done something that breaks the law for one but not the other? How does sentencing work if the different laws/judges have the same crimes but not the same punishments?
This seems like it'd be a significant issue specifically in Cheliax. While I recognize that the Measure is based on a combination of Chelish, Taldan, and Hellish law, that still leaves a LOT of chances for significant differences to come up. How are those differences resolved?
I'm just very curious how having an extra-governmental agency that polices an entirely different law set works in practice, and how that differs between orders and countries.
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I think playing a Hellknight with an encyclopedic knowledge of the Measure and the Chain and using it for good purposes by citing deliberately contradictory statutes and being as obstructive and annoyingly bureaucratic as possible towards the bad guys would be a lot of fun to play.
"You wanna arrest these citizens who are peacefully assembling? I don't see an Arrest Warrant 27B-6, buddy! No, it DOESN'T matter if the courthouse stopped printing those forms 20 years ago, the law's still on the books, so it's still enforceable, and by the Godclaw, I'm gonna enforce it!"
"We need to open the granary and distribute the food the baron's hoarding? Okay, if we go to the third floor, speak with Eleanor and ask for an Emergency Requisition 33Z-8, bring that to Tomasso in Produce Distribution, then take what HE gives us to the granary, the guards will just let us right in, and even the baron can't argue with his own seal."
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They haven't done anything with the Hellknights since publishing the three archetypes have they? It's perhaps possible that they thought that people would be more excited to be Hellknights than they have been, but more probably there's just a lot more books to publish than they have the time and resources to publish and it hasn't come up yet.
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They haven't done anything with the Hellknights since publishing the three archetypes have they? It's perhaps possible that they thought that people would be more excited to be Hellknights than they have been, but more probably there's just a lot more books to publish than they have the time and resources to publish and it hasn't come up yet.
I think the more likely explanation is that we haven’t really been anywhere near Hellknight lands, outside of a single AP volume set in Ravounel. They don’t tend to operate on Absalom or the Impossible Lands, and the ones that were in the Mwangi Expanse are probably being hunted to extinction by Vidrian’s agents if they weren’t already.
We got a Knights of Lastwall book without an Eye of Dread one, and it remains to be seen if the Firebrands book will pair with 2023’s big setting book (I don’t expect it will), so who knows. Hellknights in 2024 wouldn’t surprise me.
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They haven't done anything with the Hellknights since publishing the three archetypes have they? It's perhaps possible that they thought that people would be more excited to be Hellknights than they have been, but more probably there's just a lot more books to publish than they have the time and resources to publish and it hasn't come up yet.I think the more likely explanation is that we haven’t really been anywhere near Hellknight lands, outside of a single AP volume set in Ravounel. They don’t tend to operate on Absalom or the Impossible Lands, and the ones that were in the Mwangi Expanse are probably being hunted to extinction by Vidrian’s agents if they weren’t already.
We got a Knights of Lastwall book without an Eye of Dread one, and it remains to be seen if the Firebrands book will pair with 2023’s big setting book (I don’t expect it will), so who knows. Hellknights in 2024 wouldn’t surprise me.
There have been standalone adventures in Old Cheliax, but the only one I'm even passingly familiar with was the haunted house one in western Ravounel (which dear God did that feel like a retread of the Misgivings), and that one only involved Hellknights as the least relevant part of its backstory, explaining that the town the haunted house was in got built as a depot for masonry bound for Citadel Enferac, and that it got abandoned after the Hellknights there completed their building project.
As one of my favorite PCs is a former Order of the Nail Hellknight who abandoned the order after falling in love with an Ulfen druid in a very accidental parallel to Disney's horribly inaccurate take on Pocahontas, the concept of a Hellknight AP + a massive reformation of Cheliax AP would be... amazing. I have so much invested in the area and how a reformed/revolutionary Cheliax would look!
Consider this: Cheliax has a major revolt. Taldor, recently now under the rule of a new regime which was brought about partially by 'a group of heroes', along with Ravounel having the same, I imagine they put a LOT of effort into assisting the rebels. Nidal would be assumed to stand with Cheliax, but what if a major part of the AP is convincing Nidal to stand down? Since 'kill the evil super powered queen and save the nation' has already been done with CotCT, a more War for the Crown take on a Chelaxian Civil War would be a fantastic way to go, imo. Center the whole thing on the PCs being from one of the former Chelaxian colonies/vassals, or a citizen of Cheliax itself and tying the backgrounds into that.
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I can agree with the sentiment, but I don't think that's the direction Paizo's currently going in, at least at the moment.
Abrogail II was honestly very lucky Tar-Baphon broke out when he did, as he's largely occupying the attention of would-be heroes both in and out of Cheliax: any native Iomedaeans chafing under increased persecution can make their way to the Gravelands to join the Knights of Lastwall on the front lines, and any foreign-born ones tempted to defy her ban and sneak into Cheliax are also diverting to the Gravelands where they feel the more dangerous evil is at the moment.
The vibe I'm getting from Cheliax at the moment is they're the ally no one likes, but they're being tolerated because they're not being actively destructive the way the Worldwound was or how The Whispering Tyrant is now. She blatantly gave Iomedae the finger by using the goddess' OWN SWORD to personally execute EVERY member of Iomedae's Egorian priesthood on a technicality during what was supposed to just be an acceptance of their surrender, and the rest of the Inner Sea has been forced to kind of just let that slide for the moment because they've got undead rampaging in the heart of Avistan to worry about. And she hasn't even cleaned the blood off Heart's Edge yet. The scars left by the Glorious Reclamation's defeat are still pretty fresh, and I imagine it's going to take a while before any similar movement (most likely the Firebrands) feels an opportunity to succeed where they failed has presented itself.
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It is worth noting too that there IS an element of hypocrisy to the ideal of emotionlessness the Hellknights strive for, right from the very start: Daidan Rhul's motivations were grief at his wife's murder and son's suicide, and rage at the cultists responsible for both, as well as the inaction of those who could have stopped it, ESPECIALLY the Church of Aroden. The original Hellknights more or less coalesced around him rather than being actively recruited, and codified that "lack of chill." I don't know if irony is the right word, but it's interesting to me that an organization preaching emotionless detachment to avoid clouding one's judgment is effectively very, VERY angry at the world for not adhering to the ideal lawfulness they wish it could.
It's kind of a theme that's writ larger across Cheliax as a whole and maybe even across the whole of Hell itself: they claim to be rational and ruthless because it's the only way to bring order and peace, but down at the core it's a much more emotional, IRRATIONAL motivation, angrily lashing out at a universe they think hurt them somehow. Whether it's Daidan Rhul carving a bloody swathe through Westcrown to avenge the deaths of his family, Abrogail Thrune Personally murdering Egorian's entire Iomedaean clergy with Iomedae's own sword out of spite for the Glorious Reclamation, Cheliax as a whole turning to diabolism and evil because they felt their grand destiny was denied because Aroden didn't have the decency to stay alive when he was supposed to, or Asmodeus himself murdering his brother Ihys for choosing the happiness of mortals over his brother's, it's emotional overreactions to bad turns of fate all the way down...
Yes. Lawful Evil (and Evil generally) is described as pretty incompetent and irrational. It is a disservice to the setting IMO.
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I mean, "Evil" isn't supposed to make a strong argument to the *players*. The bad guys are supposed to have flawed reasoning, and the good guys are supposed to win in the end. Evil isn't supposed to be as valid a choice as "not-evil".
I will note that the incompetence of evil is mostly in the context of Cheliax (no one ever said that Geb or Nidal weren't competent)- it's because the powers of Cheliax claim to have an orderly, tightly controlled, disciplined society. But this sanctimoniousness is intentional- one of the main ways that Cheliax differs from real world fascist societies (and thus doesn't read as an expy of such) is that Cheliax embraces its libertine nature and aesthetic "degeneracy".
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I mean, "Evil" isn't supposed to make a strong argument to the *players*. The bad guys are supposed to have flawed reasoning, and the good guys are supposed to win in the end. Evil isn't supposed to be as valid a choice as "not-evil".
I will note that the incompetence of evil is mostly in the context of Cheliax (no one ever said that Geb or Nidal weren't competent)- it's because the powers of Cheliax claim to have an orderly, tightly controlled, disciplined society. But this sanctimoniousness is intentional- one of the main ways that Cheliax differs from real world fascist societies (and thus doesn't read as an expy of such) is that Cheliax embraces its libertine nature and aesthetic "degeneracy".
Sidenote, this is one of reasons I made alternate alignment system for my kingdom building homebrew. Because "Balance between extremes" ISN'T valid philosophy when two of them are good and evil :'D And I wanted to go for Shin Megami Tensei-ish things for this one, so I wanted to clarify what each alignment means by giving them more distinct names as well
(second thing that I did in my homebrew was to frame it as "everyone is unaligned until they choose to pledge" since its basically same as normal alignment, but changes framing from "This is how character is" to "this is how character chooses to be")
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Do we have any evil in Golarion that actually feels dangerous and threatening ?
Nidal is terrifying but it's not expansionist. So long as you don't end up there, you're fine. Geb is pretty horrific, but plays nice with its neighbors (for sinister reasons). The Red Mantis on Mediogalti Island seem to have their act together. Tar-Baphon is the metaplot big bad. The rulers of Ustalav seem like people whose attention you really don't want. Mzali is a pretty dire place to live near.
I mean, considering we're in the business of "solving problems with groups of 3-6 heroes" structurally the threats that we posit have to be solvable by said groups. Cheliax was a bit of a punching bag in 1e because they committed the sin of "being imperialists" (among myriad other sins) so "let's thwart Cheliax" was easy and fun. It's probable that we need another new threat somewhere that's scary and competent, but that shouldn't be Cheliax.
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Do we have any evil in Golarion that actually feels dangerous and threatening ?
Nidal.
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To be fair, Cheliax CAN be dangerous and threatening. That's what the Hell's Vengeance AP is all about: letting you BE the competent Evil characters. I just wish it had been more flexible with how dirty your hands had to get to reach the desired outcomes, because a lot of the things you're asked to do just seemed unnecessarily edgy for edginess' sake...
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We're only 2 volumes in, but it really feels like Blood Lords is the better Hell's Vengeance. You're agents of nefarious powers in an evil kingdom, but you're lined up against other agents of nefarious powers whose agenda you disagree with. It's a story that is wholly amenable to evil characters, but doesn't make it impossible to be a decent person who's just trying to make the best of the messed up situation they find themselves living in.
My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."
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My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."
This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."
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Sure, a civil war is going to bring out all sorts of terrible people, but the PCs shouldn't be the vanguard of transgressions. There should be others who cross the various lines and the PCs should be the people considering whether or not *they* want to cross those lines.
Like the basic assumption of the campaign should be "are you willing to do evil to get what you want" and not "you're evil, so we need to reinforce this by making you do evil stuff." Since, like, in Blood Lords what the PCs want in the immediate term is not itself bad (you're essentially trying to prevent deadly poisons from being put into the food supply), but the temptation is to cross all manner of lines in order to make sure this doesn't happen.
"Evil as a tempting force" makes more sense narratively than "evil as a valid alternative."
My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."
I think it’s alright to say an AP about being state agents not working for a lot of Lawful characters is valid criticism. I’m very glad Blood Lords is so much more amenable to this.
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I think it’s alright to say an AP about being state agents not working for a lot of Lawful characters is valid criticism.My big problem with Hell's Vengeance is that it seemed to better fit purely mercenary NE characters and CE murderhobos better than it fits LN Chellish patriots. Like the story you'd want to tell in something like Hell's Vengeance is "I grew up being told to love my homeland, and so I'm willing to fight for it, but along the way I realized a few things that made me reconsider."This is less a problem with the AP than with your expectations of patriots, Chelish or otherwise. Brutal civil wars do tend to bring out the murderhobos, especially (though by no means exclusively) in the "party of order."
Of the alignment system, maybe. But not being able to begin as and remain a wholesome LN nationalist in the context of a civil war on the side of the repressive regime is a fairly good representation of the relevant dynamics, I think.
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You can play a Lawful Good character in Blood Lords though, and it works. Not any Lawful Good character, but some of them. Your perspective is someone who has lived in Geb their whole live, understands that the whole thing is utterly horrific, but also understands that there's a lot of decent people who would be hurt if we just blew the whole thing up. So you have to work within the system, which you are not able to just replace with a better system, to make improvements where and when you are able to do so. You're not going to save the world or fix everything, but you can make a real difference that's going to matter to a lot of people.
It's just odd that you can make a Good character work in a "support the system" AP when it's the literal people-eating monsters in Geb where monsters have been eating people for thousands of years, but not in formerly-Arodenite Cheliax after four generations of Thrunes.
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Part of why it's harder to be a noble agent of the Chelaxian government is because Cheliax's main goals are imperialist expansionism and generally forcing the population to behave in a certain way.
Meanwhile Geb... Well, it does suck, but the government hasn't got much expansion in it and they do at least exuberantly enforce the protective laws they have, and Geb's well being has a bigger impact on most people than Cheliax.
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That's something that I honestly like about Geb as an evil character: yes, he's capable of truly horrific atrocities and like many a classic villain doesn't really see other people as fully-formed beings with lives and feelings of their own but tools for him to use and discard, but THAT SAID, the only times he's really dangerous is when he's provoked, whether that's by Nex or by the Knights of Ozem. That's why Geb (the nation) has lasted as long as it has: it doesn't seek glory or want to take and hold dirt the way other nations do. Cheliax, by contrast, desperately wants to do these things to recover the glory they think they've lost, and the general vibe of the Inner Sea region is "that's not how we do things anymore." The borders of nations, despite the massive shifts with things like the Gravelands creation, new nations like Oprak, Ravounel and Vidrian forming and stuff, have stabilized and no one WANTS to go to war with anyone else. Even Taldor, similar to Cheliax in many ways, is trying to cultivate a new kind of greatness, one that comes from within, rather than seeking to push around other nations to demand respect from them.
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I'm not sure anyone suggested that. What we're trying to say is Cheliax is treating Tar-Baphon's rampaging as an opportunity to continue getting away with the repression of their own people and launder their reputation at the same time, because they ARE fighting against Tar-Baphon. House Thrune actually one of the biggest advocates for "let's put aside our differences for now and focus on the bigger threat" because they know it'll force their citizens and their neighbors to tolerate them despite seeing how tenuous their position really is thanks to the successful rebellions of Ravounel and Vidrian and how even in failure the Glorious Reclamation came pretty close to winning. They need time to recover, and since they're part of a coalition they don't have to devote ALL their remaining forces to the fight against the Whispering Tyrant, so they're in the process of rebuilding. But just because they're being tolerated due to the current crisis doesn't mean anyone's fooled into thinking Cheliax will be content to let the new status quo stand after Tar-Baphon's been beaten. Their ego has been wounded, and that's when evil characters are at their most dangerous.
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New interview with Luis went up, and at around the 30 minute mark, he mentions that the upcoming Firebrands book will touch on developments in Cheliax - including Abrogail's recent outlawing of slavery in the nation... in favor of all those recently "liberated" folk being given "care packages" tied to double-edged contracts that bind them to Chelish army service and saddle them with debt.
There's also some mention of the Hellknight Order of the Scourge partnering with the Firebrands to undermine House Thrune, in a very uneasy alliance against their mutual foe. Luis then talks about potentially adding new Orders or shaking up existing ones to make them a little more available to Lawful Good players as something he's interested in sometime in the future.
A savvier, more subtle House Thrune trying to fend off an ad hoc coalition of Hellknights of would-be revolutionaries? That's an identity for Cheliax in 2e I can see being plenty interesting.
EDIT: Pleased to see that I somewhat called this a few months ago! What could be more Lawful Evil than token reforms that change nothing at all?
The ship has sailed on slavery: Paizo is not interested. Whatever form that takes in Cheliax, specifically, is a question for us to daydream about and for the writers to handle, but folks should accept that the deed is already done.
It’s not like a nation can’t treat its former slaves incredibly poorly, or trap people in contracts and debt that are slavery in all but name. I don’t understand why people think the infernal empire famous for racism, torture, censorship, colonization, and imperial expansionism is somehow going to become Fluffy Bunny Land without slavery.
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There's also some mention of the Hellknight Order of the Scourge partnering with the Firebrands to undermine House Thrune, in a very uneasy alliance against their mutual foe.
That the Chelish Firebrands were tailing the Order of the Scourge and had given up any sort of campaign for political freedom or the democratic republic, or indeed any pretense of independent thought or activity, was already in the Campaign Setting book and Legends, and anyone who expected better than this rank Menshevism from them in the first place was a fool.
More interesting is what's going to become of the Bellflower Network now that its raison d'etre no longer exists but other forms of bonded labor abound that the Firebrands are doing nothing whatsoever about. Transition to Narodism? Transition to trade unionism/economism? Agitation in the army for mutiny or defeatism?
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There's also some mention of the Hellknight Order of the Scourge partnering with the Firebrands to undermine House Thrune, in a very uneasy alliance against their mutual foe.That the Chelish Firebrands were tailing the Order of the Scourge and had given up any sort of campaign for political freedom or the democratic republic, or indeed any pretense of independent thought or activity, was already in the Campaign Setting book and Legends, and anyone who expected better than this rank Menshevism from them in the first place was a fool.
More interesting is what's going to become of the Bellflower Network now that its raison d'etre no longer exists but other forms of bonded labor abound that the Firebrands are doing nothing whatsoever about. Transition to Narodism? Transition to trade unionism/economism? Agitation in the army for mutiny or defeatism?
Pressing the people your state treats like dirt into the military went wonderfully for the Russian Tsar. Is Abrogail sure she wants to train all these ex-slaves in how to fight with real weapons? Bellflower subversion in the ranks is a really fun space to play in.
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New interview with Luis went up, and at around the 30 minute mark, he mentions that the upcoming Firebrands book will touch on developments in Cheliax - including Abrogail's recent outlawing of slavery in the nation... in favor of all those recently "liberated" folk being given "care packages" tied to double-edged contracts that bind them to Chelish army service and saddle them with debt.
There's also some mention of the Hellknight Order of the Scourge partnering with the Firebrands to undermine House Thrune, in a very uneasy alliance against their mutual foe. Luis then talks about potentially adding new Orders or shaking up existing ones to make them a little more available to Lawful Good players as something he's interested in sometime in the future.
A savvier, more subtle House Thrune trying to fend off an ad hoc coalition of Hellknights of would-be revolutionaries? That's an identity for Cheliax in 2e I can see being plenty interesting.
EDIT: Pleased to see that I somewhat called this a few months ago! What could be more Lawful Evil than token reforms that change nothing at all?
The ship has sailed on slavery: Paizo is not interested. Whatever form that takes in Cheliax, specifically, is a question for us to daydream about and for the writers to handle, but folks should accept that the deed is already done.
It’s not like a nation can’t treat its former slaves incredibly poorly, or trap people in contracts and debt that are slavery in all but name. I don’t understand why people think the infernal empire famous for racism, torture, censorship, colonization, and imperial expansionism is somehow going to become Fluffy Bunny Land without slavery.
...you know, even I was unsure if getting rid of slavery in Cheliax was a good idea, but having it de facto still around à la late 19th century USA (or arguably for longer, but that's a can of worms best not opened on a fantasy TTRPG discussion forum) is honestly kind of a genius move, and one that fits Cheliax's vibe pretty well, considering the ruling noble house got into power via a Faustian pact.
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If we're still locked into Cheliax partially homaging Western Rome, I could see them offering citizenship for service ala the Marian Reforms (which were opposed by the Senatorial class in their day as an erosion of their power), which opened the Legions up to recruitment from among free non-citizens in exchange for land and citizenship after a period of service. Even then, Legionaries still had to pay for their own equipment, their own transport, their own food, support their families among the camp followers, and so on.
If Cheliax has a tremendous number of formerly enslaved unskilled labourers, and needs to get them assimilated and invested in the stability of the nation despite millennia of prejudice and enslavement, having them sign up for a ten year or so stint in the Chelaxian military so they can have the same basic rights and privileges their former masters had isn't the stupidest way for a lawful evil nation to do it. In the course of various border conflicts, piracy suppression operations, engaging Tar-Baphon's forces, and general attrition, how many of those former slaves are even going to return home full citizens, and of those who return how many are going to still think the cause of overthrowing House Thrune is worth opening the country to those threats? Then saddle them with debt peonage and tell them to be grateful for the graciousness of the Thrunian Reforms. Especially if there is still a free non-citizen class to whom even those meagre protections and privileges aren't extended to show what they have to lose. Especially if Abrogail, like Caesar and the elevated Gaulish senators, is smart enough to elevate some of these people to nobility - because they're pliable or useful, because the it'll make the common people happy enough to put down the pitchforks, because like many dictatorships that claim legitimacy it's useful to have a visible opposition that isn't too effective - to show them that they don't just stand to lose, but might stand to gain. The existing Chelaxian nobility would hate it, especially if a number of them are halflings or tieflings, but there are worse things a tyrant can do than show their allies that they need to stay on their toes too.
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As a belated addendum to the previous post, using citizenship to incentivise military service has the benefit of already being what nearby Molthune does, so Cheliax can say it's using a proven system. Molthune doesn't (or didn't) offer it to freed slaves, but it's close enough that it might have been what inspired Cheliax.
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Pressing the people your state treats like dirt into the military went wonderfully for the Russian Tsar.
It did! The periods 1863 through 1904, and 1907 through 1916 (the former being more relevant since Abrogail's reforms are pretty obviously modeled after the emancipation of the serfs) were periods of strength and retrenchment for the autocracy. What broke the back of the regime was, over and above anything else, losing its wars with those conscript armies.
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I'm having a big problem with how Pazio is treating LG and LE societies they are treating them as Lawful stupid and CE Societies as totally omniscient and that the citizens do whatever their overlords say people would be fleeing in droves from the Gravelands before they were eaten or turned into undead.
Can you give a single example of this? I struggle to even name a CE 'society' in Golarion, let alone think of one shown to be completely in command of its populace. I'm also not sure what your Gravelands comment means, given that the massive tide of refugees fleeing what used to be Lastwall is one of the largest problems in Avistan presently - the Gravelands aren't a nation with a citizenry.
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As far as the freed halfling slaves I think it would be better in the long run to give them a choice serve 2 years in the army and be made full citizens without putting them in any form of debt, because that would just cause thievery or be given a ride to the boarder in a coach with their meager goods and be exiled from Cheliax forever. This would be done because it would serve Cheliax better in the long run not because they are any type of good they are evil through and through.
The problem is that granting them citizenship after such a (relatively) short period of service without keeping a means of reining them in is, as Keftiu pointed out, training and army your own future Resistance. Cheliax is abolishing slavery, which doesn't mean things are going to improve for most people. As with the Antebellum South, saddling former slaves with debt helps keep them in line - they may have their "freedom," but they also have the "obligations" that come with it and a populace that can't afford to rise up because every cent goes to making sure the bank doesn't foreclose the family farm is generally easier to bully into compliance and keep from influencing society in ways those running the state don't permit.
And if impoverishing its freed halfling populace did result in an increase in crime, why would the Thrune's be worried? That just gives them an excuse to throw money at the city guards to expand their size and increase their authorities, or send in the Hellknights to brutalise them publicly and Make An Example Of Them. Being "tough on crime" has done wonders for a lot of political careers. A very cynical part of me wonders if Cheliax will have something like the prison industrial complex to feed its devils' hunger for souls in place of sacrificed slaves. They're diabolists, after all.
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Also, it's very hard to just "flee" Cheliax - there was an entire organization dedicated to helping people do that, and it was HARD. Cheliax has some huge mountain ranges dividing it from the other parts of Avistan, and it's also just enormous - the state is just as eager to send someone after you for "draft dodging" as an escaped slave. I certainly don't see how them doing something evil and claiming it as progressive for good PR is "lawful stupid".
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every cent goes to making sure the bank doesn't foreclose the family farm is generally easier to bully into compliance and keep from influencing society in ways those running the state don't permit.
What family farm? All the productive land is already owned by some magnate or other, and in no sane universe would Abrogail have packaged emancipation with land reform - even some of the revolutionary states didn't do land reform (no, I am never letting this go). Did you mean the little plot you kept a garden on under slavery, on which you now have to pay extortionate rents as well as tax (to say nothing of how the actual grain crop is kept entirely by the landlord on whose land it is grown)?
Also, it's very hard to just "flee" Cheliax - there was an entire organization dedicated to helping people do that, and it was HARD. Cheliax has some huge mountain ranges dividing it from the other parts of Avistan, and it's also just enormous - the state is just as eager to send someone after you for "draft dodging" as an escaped slave. I certainly don't see how them doing something evil and claiming it as progressive for good PR is "lawful stupid".
Bear in mind that premodern and early modern levies are unlike modern conscription. They don't assign registry numbers to individuals - much as they might like to, they don't have the means to keep track of them, and no matter how Hellish, Cheliax's bureaucracy isn't up to the task either. Rather, levies impose obligations on villages and towns to provide a certain number of bodies equipped to a certain standard, typically based on either population or how much tax that village or town is assessed (wealthier/more populous areas are supposed to provide more, and wealthier areas are supposed to provide better-equipped, soldiers - but they can also in principle keep that revenue and those soldiers to themselves to resist the state, so they can often get privileges in exchange). It isn't terribly hard for a particular individual or small group to flee into the woods when the recruiting sergeants come around so that someone else has to go into the army, and come back when they leave, as long as not everyone does it. That said, once you're in the army you ain't getting out, devil MPs are exacting and Chelish corporal punishment is brutal.
Also, if anything, a ten-year term of service is too short. If we're taking Imperial Russia as a model, the term should be anywhere from 12 to 25 years, plus additional years in the army reserve, with longer terms of service for longer-lived peoples.
What family farm? All the productive land is already owned by some magnate or other, and in no sane universe would Abrogail have packaged emancipation with land reform - even some of the revolutionary states didn't do land reform (no, I am never letting this go). Did you mean the little plot you kept a garden on under slavery, on which you now have to pay extortionate rents as well as tax (to say nothing of how the actual grain crop is kept entirely by the landlord on whose land it is grown)?
Something like that, or the equivalent. It doesn't have to be land. It might be a small and cheap apartment, or a little market stall, some meagre benefit of service that the state can tax or threaten to take away if they're too inconvenient.
There's also some mention of the Hellknight Order of the Scourge partnering with the Firebrands to undermine House Thrune, in a very uneasy alliance against their mutual foe.That the Chelish Firebrands were tailing the Order of the Scourge and had given up any sort of campaign for political freedom or the democratic republic, or indeed any pretense of independent thought or activity, was already in the Campaign Setting book and Legends, and anyone who expected better than this rank Menshevism from them in the first place was a fool.
More interesting is what's going to become of the Bellflower Network now that its raison d'etre no longer exists but other forms of bonded labor abound that the Firebrands are doing nothing whatsoever about. Transition to Narodism? Transition to trade unionism/economism? Agitation in the army for mutiny or defeatism?
What do you mean? The Bellflower Network helped uncover the true heir to Cheliax while freeing political prisoners? They are not exactly a single minded organization.
Also, recent writing about Cheliax seems to imply it's one stiff kick from falling over.