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Disagree. Then why play anything else. Bad design imo
On the other hand, blasting is actually fine. If you are a caster that focuses on attack spells only, you are probably not a great blaster.
Kineticist needs it's own niche. So far, I am cautiously optimisitc.
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it's a post-core class, the action economy will always be a struggle. but maybe that feedback will mean something this time around.
as for a blasting niche, it seems to be a pretty popular desire and fits the class fantasy. Lacks the versatility of a real caster and lacks the accuracy of a real martial. good damage doesn't seem that big an ask.
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Disagree. Then why play anything else. Bad design imo
Because casters have 1.897 other tools in their toolbox? That's literally the reason they're not allowed to be very good at damage. How's having a class that has a lot less tools (which it already does) but is better at doing direct damage "bad design"?
I do think the class needs to buffed a little, but they shouldn't do more damage than a caster expending resources, no. And to those saying that casters have utility so kineticist can just be straight damage - kineticists have some pretty good utility too if you look for it. Very focused, sure, but being able to do anything all day makes their utility potentially very strong (things like whole party all day flight or casting wall of stone over and over).
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First y'all are being way too aggressive and dismissive. You speak of knowing balance but only spout white room math while ignoring feature budgets and what the class currently has.
First and foremost what this class currently is. Is a martial class. Martial proficiency in their attacks and defenses. They have no actual spell casting. No spell DC. They have unique abilities but this is not a blaster caster.
Now beyond this. You want better class DC? Sure. Expect martial scaling to go down to expert from master. At minimum for attacking.
I find it pretty shameful with how a couple of you are behaving if I'm honest. Don't talk to me about balance if you can't figure out what is equivalent to lose to stay in class feature budget limits.
Did you know that combination weapons are budgeted around the cost of runes making them less desirable in automatic bonus progression?
Did you know the developer for them said, an equivalent idea of what to give them, would be a level 1 basic invention upon purchase?
To think that a level 1 invention feature would be when roughly equivalent to this is telling just how many checks and balances this game has on development side.
But no, you just demand 35 percent more damage with zero consideration. Knowledgeable about balance indeed...
First y'all are being way too aggressive and dismissive. You speak of knowing balance but only spout white room math while ignoring feature budgets and what the class currently has.
First and foremost what this class currently is. Is a martial class. Martial proficiency in their attacks and defenses. They have no actual spell casting. No spell DC. They have unique abilities but this is not a blaster caster.
Now beyond this. You want better class DC? Sure. Expect martial scaling to go down to expert from master. At minimum for attacking.
I find it pretty shameful with how a couple of you are behaving if I'm honest. Don't talk to me about balance if you can't figure out what is equivalent to lose to stay in class feature budget limits.
Did you know that combination weapons are budgeted around the cost of runes making them less desirable in automatic bonus progression?
Did you know the developer for them said, an equivalent idea of what to give them, would be a level 1 basic invention upon purchase?
To think that a level 1 invention feature would be when roughly equivalent to this is telling just how many checks and balances this game has on development side.
But no, you just demand 35 percent more damage with zero consideration. Knowledgeable about balance indeed...
"First y'all are being way too aggressive and dismissive."
Didn't you literally say, "Then why play anything else. Bad design imo" as your only argument when someone suggested the class be a good blaster, for once, since we don't have a class really focused on blasting?
lol. This was literally the epitome of aggressiveness and dismissiveness.
Sorry should have prefaced with I'm at work? Regardless thank you for not addressing the body of my extended discussion. It shows your true colors on this argument. That is to say, no room for other voices than the ones that nod their heads.
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You're such a child.
35% more damage to the impulses isn't "overboard"
Look at the maths they currently have going on the abilities. It would literally add like one or two more dice by the time they are level 20.
You missed the entire point. What are you willing to give up.
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First y'all are being way too aggressive and dismissive.
Then what's with the rest of your post? "Shameful" that someone else disagrees with you about how well-balanced something is? Be the change you want to see in the world instead of sneering at people for not sharing your specific opinion about how good or not a damn playtest class is.
Regardless thank you for not addressing the body of my extended discussion. It shows your true colors on this argument.
If you want someone to focus on some specific point you're making instead of getting hung up on you mocking people for daring to disagree, maybe skip that part altogether. Makes the world a better place.
First y'all are being way too aggressive and dismissive.Then what's with the rest of your post? "Shameful" that someone else disagrees with you about how well-balanced something is? Be the change you want to see in the world instead of sneering at people for not sharing your specific opinion about how good or not a damn playtest class is.
Shameful is the gaslighting and bad faith arguments. I'm fully capable of agreeing to disagree.
You missed the entire point. What are you willing to give up.You're such a child.
35% more damage to the impulses isn't "overboard"
Look at the maths they currently have going on the abilities. It would literally add like one or two more dice by the time they are level 20.
If a class is undertuned, literally undertuned how it is now, then it doesn't have to give up anything.
You can have master blasting AND legendary class DC while analyzing what the legendary class DC actually DOES and the CONTEXT it's in.
It is absolutely absurd to just see legendary class DC and claim it is OP without analyzing the context of what it does.
It's not. Rather an aspect is performing less than you desire. Not the same thing.
The only one gaslighting here is you.Shameful is the gaslighting and bad faith arguments. I'm fully capable of agreeing to disagree.First y'all are being way too aggressive and dismissive.Then what's with the rest of your post? "Shameful" that someone else disagrees with you about how well-balanced something is? Be the change you want to see in the world instead of sneering at people for not sharing your specific opinion about how good or not a damn playtest class is.
Not true. But I'm seeing where this is going. I'm not going to carry on with someone this bent on their cake and eat it too while demonizing anyone with a different perspective. Good day
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Shameful is the gaslighting and bad faith arguments. I'm fully capable of agreeing to disagree.
Then stop doing that??
Shameful is the gaslighting and bad faith arguments. I'm fully capable of agreeing to disagree.Then stop doing that??
I wasn't,Verizon however was. And Temp. I'm not replying in this thread again. Best of luck to the devs.
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Kineticist is not set up to be the single target blaster, and it is starting to look like there is not going to be a class that can do that better than an evocation wizard.
I am sympathetic to wanting that character to exist, and really thought that was the direction the Kineticist was going to go in, with a default blast that had the flourish trait to limit it to once a round.
But the playtest version is a very good multi-target blaster, probably the best in the game for doing it every round, as thier their thing.
The rightful issue to question is "how necessary is a martial version of the multi-target blaster?" since that is something casters are already even better at than single target blasting.
Ranged damage in PF2 has pretty strict ceilings on it. A ranger that can fly all day by level 8 would instantly be over the top powerful. A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.
Kintecists can't do everything, but be annoying to attack back and still make a full rounds worth of attacks is something that the playtest class can do well. It is very much the opposite of the Magus.
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Kineticist is not set up to be the single target blaster, and it is starting to look like there is not going to be a class that can do that better than an evocation wizard.
I am sympathetic to wanting that character to exist, and really thought that was the direction the Kineticist was going to go in, with a default blast that had the flourish trait to limit it to once a round.
But the playtest version is a very good multi-target blaster, probably the best in the game for doing it every round, as thier their thing.
The rightful issue to question is "how necessary is a martial version of the multi-target blaster?" since that is something casters are already even better at than single target blasting.
Ranged damage in PF2 has pretty strict ceilings on it. A ranger that can fly all day by level 8 would instantly be over the top powerful. A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.
Kintecists can't do everything, but be annoying to attack back and still make a full rounds worth of attacks is something that the playtest class can do well. It is very much the opposite of the Magus.
Its NOT a very good multi target blaster though? Their aoe is legitimately worse than electric arc or scatter skree a lot of the time due to the awkward action economy and worse dc, yeah occasionally the enemies will all be grouped up and you can nuke 4 or 5 mobs at once in the start of a fight, and that will feel pretty sweet, but most turns in combat will have mobs tangled up in melee, or be against a singular boss, making finding a place to center your blast that hits more than two, maybe three mobs will be hard
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Electric arc and scatter skree are dual target blasting, not really multi-target blasting. If the Kinteticst has less than 3 targets, they will definitely suffer. This is a valid area of concern to express about the class, but it is contingent on adventure design, and if multi-target blasting is what the developers want the class to be, saying the class is terrible because it does exactly what it was designed to do is the wrong approach.
The better approach is to play test it, respond to the surveys and provide qualitative statements about what was specifically disappointing about not being able to do the things with the class that you want to do.
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Electric arc and scatter skree are dual target blasting, not really multi-target blasting. If the Kinteticst has less than 3 targets, they will definitely suffer. This is a valid area of concern to express about the class, but it is contingent on adventure design, and if multi-target blasting is what the developers want the class to be, saying the class is terrible because it does exactly what it was designed to do is the wrong approach.
The better approach is to play test it, respond to the surveys and provide qualitative statements about what was specifically disappointing about not being able to do the things with the class that you want to do.
well remember that overload impulses cost 50% more actions than a cantrip, so over a long term hitting 3 with an impulse vs hitting 2 with a cantrip evens out in terms of action cost, You need to hit 4 to actually be pulling ahead
I'm not sure. I would happily trade a lot of my blasting (most of the AoE stuff honestly) for significantly better defense.
The Kineticist should also be available as "A tank that does okay damage" which is how I built all of mine in PF1.
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The rightful issue to question is "how necessary is a martial version of the multi-target blaster?" since that is something casters are already even better at than single target blasting.
I'd say moderately so, in that it's a fantasy that doesn't have a lot of exploration right now.
So far generally Paizo has set of martials to be single target damage dealers and casters to be better at AoE (with a handful of exceptions like Barbarians and Inventors having some interesting AoE options).
So a class that flips that script seems interesting.
... In a way it seems almost like a counterpart to the Psychic, where the former is a spellcaster that powers up their direct damage and the latter is a martial with more AoE abilities.
How successful either class is at doing that job is another question, but imo it's good design space.
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The rightful issue to question is "how necessary is a martial version of the multi-target blaster?" since that is something casters are already even better at than single target blasting.I'd say moderately so, in that it's a fantasy that doesn't have a lot of exploration right now.
So far generally Paizo has set of martials to be single target damage dealers and casters to be better at AoE (with a handful of exceptions like Barbarians and Inventors having some interesting AoE options).
So a class that flips that script seems interesting.
... In a way it seems almost like a counterpart to the Psychic, where the former is a spellcaster that powers up their direct damage and the latter is a martial with more AoE abilities.
How successful either class is at doing that job is another question, but imo it's good design space.
I am also in the "interested" boat. I think people always get nervous about damage and accuracy with every new class, and then get very minor boosts in the final class release that make 75-90% of folks happy, and that could very easily be the case here.
The bigger issue that I see is from people who were very much expecting the Kineticist to be the Single Target Blaster, and I just don't think small accuracy and damage boosts will ever get the class there. In fact, if it did, we'd have a real problem of having the ultimate striker class that does single target damage and Multi-target damage very well and can do so all day.
I think muddling the two issues together won't really help the playtest much. For the class to be what some people want it to be as a single target striker, there would have to be significant ways of restricting it away from multiple attack options.
One proficiency boost in either direction towards strikes or AoE saves is not the restriction that will make that difference.
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While I think that everyone can agree that it needs damage, nobody really agrees with how much (and it's not really our job, that is the designers to figure).
My balance point per example would be a class feature increasing damage that uses Constitution in some way for the blast and have the impulses be somewhat weaker than unstable actions (as they are once per battle while impulses don't have limit).
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I'm not sure. I would happily trade a lot of my blasting (most of the AoE stuff honestly) for significantly better defense.
The Kineticist should also be available as "A tank that does okay damage" which is how I built all of mine in PF1.
What do you think of Rebirth in Living Stone? Makes you a great tank by ignoring critical damage *and* gives you good damage on your Elemental Blasts.
The fact you can be AoO'd on your Blasts does kill it a bit for me personally, I wish Impulse didn't have Manipulate in melee.| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think in terms of "the kineticist is a multi-target attacking class" the thing I would want them to focus on is less "you make n attacks against different targets" and more about "the volcano/vortex/enormous boulde you're throwing at them is hard to escape and does damage on a successful save".
Since the trouble spot in this game for most parties is "a solo boss who is 3 levels higher than the party" or something like that, for which your ability to throw rocks at 5 people at once is completely useless but your ability to create volcanoes and earthquakes is helpful.
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Can folk upthread stop the name-calling and personal attacks and use of the word 'gaslighting' in a totally inappropriate context? We have the privilege of participating in the creation of fun things. Let's not ruin that for ourselves or for the designers.
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A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.
This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.
You can have only one element gathered at a time, and Gathering an Element again causes any element you’ve already gathered to dissipate.
That said, nothing you mentioned has the Overflow trait so you can still do all of that with just Air Blasts. Flurry of gusts!
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I think in terms of "the kineticist is a multi-target attacking class" the thing I would want them to focus on is less "you make n attacks against different targets" and more about "the volcano/vortex/enormous boulde you're throwing at them is hard to escape and does damage on a successful save".
Since the trouble spot in this game for most parties is "a solo boss who is 3 levels higher than the party" or something like that, for which your ability to throw rocks at 5 people at once is completely useless but your ability to create volcanoes and earthquakes is helpful.
So an argument away from increasing accuracy with blasts and towards higher proficiency for something to help Overflow attacks stick?
As far as kineticist defensive abilities, they seem tied up in Kinetic auras that create difficult terrain around them and other feats you have to opt into. I wonder, if all the kineticists get some kind of level 1 aura that creates difficult terrain + an effect, if that kinetic aura can't be a level 1 feature that you get when you gather your element?
Can folk upthread stop the name-calling and personal attacks and use of the word 'gaslighting' in a totally inappropriate context? We have the privilege of participating in the creation of fun things. Let's not ruin that for ourselves or for the designers.
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A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.
You can have only one element gathered at a time, and Gathering an Element again causes any element you’ve already gathered to dissipate.That said, nothing you mentioned has the Overflow trait so you can still do all of that with just Air Blasts. Flurry of gusts!
Do you need to keep air gathered to keep flying? Isn't the duration just 10 minutes? So once you are flying, I guess you can barrage blast and then cycle blast every other round?
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Air doesn't get difficult terrain, it gets a speed boost.
Fair wind makes it difficult terrain for your enemies only, and speed boost for your allies. It is probably the best one.
Not exactly. You are both correct.
The Fair Winds aura does both. Enemies in the aura have difficult terrain. Allies in the aura get a +10 status bonus to speed and you get +5 status bonus to speed. Which does mean some allies/yourself might not benefit from it.
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So an argument away from increasing accuracy with blasts and towards higher proficiency for something to help Overflow attacks stick?
The game with tough solo bosses is normally "the party works together in order to eventually land stuff that makes it easier to everybody else to hit the boss" (e.g. flat-footed) and the problem is that the Kineticist really doesn't participate in this game. You're able to move people when they fail saves, or force them prone if they crit fail" but generally this doesn't seem to play well with others, in fact it kind of does the opposite since your fighter is unlikely going to appreciate a solar explosion in their face."
So if we want to give the class more toys, I think the class of toys you want to give it is "things that genuinely inconvenience quality opposition" things like "the ground grabs your feet" or "I knock you off balance with elemental matter."
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Do you need to keep air gathered to keep flying? Isn't the duration just 10 minutes? So once you are flying, I guess you can barrage blast and then cycle blast every other round?Can folk upthread stop the name-calling and personal attacks and use of the word 'gaslighting' in a totally inappropriate context? We have the privilege of participating in the creation of fun things. Let's not ruin that for ourselves or for the designers.
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A dual element kineticist could have air in one hand, fire in the other and be flying around and attacking 3 enemies with the fire blast (barrage blast) and then spending one action on a 4th attack with the air attack and still be flying.This was my thinking too, but unfortunately Gathering an Element disperses any Element already Gathered... Which also means no dual-wielding of Elemental Weapons and not much incentive not to use a shield for blasters. This is something that I really hope that they can change.
You can have only one element gathered at a time, and Gathering an Element again causes any element you’ve already gathered to dissipate.That said, nothing you mentioned has the Overflow trait so you can still do all of that with just Air Blasts. Flurry of gusts!
Oh yeah that totally works, I thought you meant literally having one Element Gathered in each hand.
I do think the class needs to buffed a little, but they shouldn't do more damage than a caster expending resources, no. And to those saying that casters have utility so kineticist can just be straight damage - kineticists have some pretty good utility too if you look for it. Very focused, sure, but being able to do anything all day makes their utility potentially very strong (things like whole party all day flight or casting wall of stone over and over).The kineticist impulses should deal 35% more of whatever the difference is between casters cantrips and spells. So for example.. fireball deals 20d6 at level 20 and produce flame deals 10d4+7 = 47+17=64/2=32 dmg on avg vs 70 dmg on avg aoe.
70-32=38 damage difference.
35% of that equals 13.3. 13+32= 45.
45×2=90. 9d10 should be the minimum an impulse attack deals.
Either 9d10 or 15d6 or 7d12. Depends on how much variance you have.
Note: this is calculating both the 20% difference PLUS the DC difference at level 20 for single target damage.
If we are at level 1 with this ability. I could see this
2d6 dmg
Level+2 +1d6
Level 5 +1d6
Level 10 +1d6
Level 15 +1d6
Level 20 +1d6For a total of 15d6 at level 20 for a single target spell. For a multi target aoe I could see 12d6 instead.
I think this would be much more in line with the balance.
But Area do more than damage, they have an effect also.