Trying to do too much and failing in the end

[tytalan]

I like the class concept but I see a fundamental flaw in the class. On one hand it’s a martial style class that get both master with strikes and armor proficiency while only being trained in unarmored and light armor on the other hand it’s a DC based class but only gets masters in Class DC proficiency. I really think this is a case of Jack of all master of none. Tho I hate to suggest it I think we need a class split like the cleric with a martial version that gets master in strike and un, light, medium armored but only expert in class DC and a blaster version that gets master in un, and light armor as well as legendary proficiency in class DCs. I think this would be a good fix for the problems that I see in the class while keeping it balanced

[Pronate11]

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

[Kekkres]

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

saves are harder and you are also already doing half damage compared to a spell, so you likely end up with 1/4 spell damage on your AOEs

[tytalan]

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

[Ediwir]

Not quite sure why the progression is so unique. It uses the half-martial advancement early, but caps at full martial.

Is there any other class that does expert at 7 but still gets master at 13? AFAIK it was always either 5/13, 11/nil, or 7/nil.

[Kekkres]

Ediwir wrote:

Not quite sure why the progression is so unique. It uses the half-martial advancement early, but caps at full martial.

Is there any other class that does expert at 7 but still gets master at 13? AFAIK it was always either 5/13, 11/nil, or 7/nil.

I honestly think this may be an error, since "full martial except two levels where you are worse" just.... doesnt make sense

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

The attack is the same as the thaumaturge or inventor. That's not inherently a problem. Also, the DC uses the same progression as the thaumaturge. Damage and action cost are separate issues that can be fixed without spliting the class in half

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

The attack is the same as the thaumaturge or inventor. That's not inherently a problem. Also, the DC uses the same progression as the thaumaturge. Damage and action cost are separate issues that can be fixed without spliting the class in half

[tytalan]

Pronate11 wrote:

tytalan wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

The attack is the same as the thaumaturge or inventor. That's not inherently a problem. Also, the DC uses the same progression as the thaumaturge. Damage and action cost are separate issues that can be fixed without spliting the class in half

Thaumaturge have abilities to both improve his to his and to weaken his opponent. The inventor is closer to a investigator which means a skill focused class. This is a front line combat class that has three different core builds but the third is useless. If you want the AC for front line you have to go Dex but lose on damage, if you want to do damage you go strength but lose on the AC in either case almost all the element based feats are useless because not only do you only get master in DC but your con has become you second or third stat.

While a character that want to do the elemental area effects fails because casters do more damage on the effects and have a higher DC.

The only build that works is a Str primary with Dex secondary and con whatever being a melee fighter and never taking elemental specific feats. A Dex primary str secondary can also work but you losing on the damage side.

The elemental build just plans fails the damage is lower than spells and it grows slower as well as suffering from lower DCs

[tytalan]

Plus Thaumaturge almost never uses its DC like most martial classes the Kineticist uses it primarily like a caster if you go the elemental effect route. Your really comparing apples to oranges when you compare the Kineticist to a Thaumaturge or inventor

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

tytalan wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

I feel like that is very excessive. All it needs is to get expert attacks at lvl 5 and maybe some more damage and its fine on the attacking end. Saves are slightly harder, but master is arguably good enough, and even if playtest shows it isn't, there's probably class budget for legendary DC. I feel like a class split is way overkill, and will ruin many characters that want to do both.

Your to hits are either strength or Dex but your class DCs are Con so you either make con secondary and your class DCs fall short or you make Dex or str secondary and your to hits and crits as well as damage suffers. In addition light armor forces you either to go the Dex route or take a additional hit on AC

Every DC damaging attack does both less damage than a spell is saved vs better and has the overflow tag which means it has a additional action tax on top.

Doing both means you are going to be weaker than other classes in both. This is why I think it needs to be split

The attack is the same as the thaumaturge or inventor. That's not inherently a problem. Also, the DC uses the same progression as the thaumaturge. Damage and action cost are separate issues that can be fixed without spliting the class in half

Thaumaturge have abilities to both improve his to his and to weaken his opponent. The inventor is closer to a investigator which means a skill focused class. This is a front line combat class that has three different core builds but the third is useless. If you want the AC for front line you have to go Dex but lose on damage, if you want to do damage you go strength but lose on the AC in either case almost all the element based feats are useless because not only do you only get master in DC but your con has become you second or third stat.

While a character that want to do the elemental area effects fails because casters do more damage on the effects and have a higher DC.

The only build that works is a Str...

Those are all separate issues that splitting the class in 2 won't inherently fix. For example, just letting you add your con mod to damage rolls will go a long way, as would letting you use Con to hit. The inventor is in a very similar boat, as it is not just a "skill focused class", it is a formidable combatant in its own right. I should know, I gm for one. The kineticist is in a very similar boat to the inventor and thaumaturge, as their damage isn't the main draw of the class, their versatility and utility are. Your saves are not useless, they are 2 lower at 6 levels. less than a 3rd of the game. -2 isn't the end of the world. Summoners have the same progression, and they're spells aren't useless. And even if playtests show that that -2 is too much, they can probably get away with legendary. they aren't spell casters, at most they would need to limit it to just kineticist stuff if wands or something are too much

[tytalan]

Actually they Are at least 3 lower because you have to max you strength or Dex to hit. So that a much greater chance for a critical success. The Thaumaturge is all about damage buffing so your completely wrong about that. The inventor is not a front line combatants yes it can do damage but it also has medium armor as does the Thaumaturge. The Kineticist is a front line fighter but only has light armor and has to sacrifice it’s DC abilities to fight.

It’s not like I’m suggesting two classes I’m just suggesting two core builds. Other wise if you go combat all you DC base abilities are going to be useless. There are few DC abilities for either the Thaumaturge or the inventor most of the element based abilities are DC based for the Kineticist

[tytalan]

And the summoner is another totally different type of character their spells are not attack spell they are support and they don’t generally go directly into melee. You keep given example of classes that are completely different and have only one main focus this class has two different possible focuses.

Out of 16 air feats 8 that half of them are DC based and all but one of those have the overflow tag which means even tho they are only two action abilities they have a additional action fee when you use them.

You say the Kineticist is not a caster but those that use the element based feats are closer to a caster than anything else but between the -3 to DC and the extra action cost they are worthless.

So people might just want to play the none direct combat build to bad it’s worthless

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

Actually they Are at least 3 lower because you have to max you strength or Dex to hit. So that a much greater chance for a critical success. The Thaumaturge is all about damage buffing so your completely wrong about that. The inventor is not a front line combatants yes it can do damage but it also has medium armor as does the Thaumaturge. The Kineticist is a front line fighter but only has light armor and has to sacrifice it’s DC abilities to fight.

It’s not like I’m suggesting two classes I’m just suggesting two core builds. Other wise if you go combat all you DC base abilities are going to be useless. There are few DC abilities for either the Thaumaturge or the inventor most of the element based abilities are DC based for the Kineticist

they are two lower, as you can still have maxed con and cha. there is no time where the kineticist is 3 lower in attacks or DC.

Only one implement primarily helps you deal damage with your weapon, the weapon implement. Wand can also help you deal damage, but uses your class DC. The thaumaturge can deal damage, and it can deal a good amount of it, but versatility and utility are a huge part of its identity. As for the inventor, medium armor is not what defines a front line character (literally only the fighter and champion get it without feat investment) but even if it did, armor inventor exists. The kineticist does not need to sacrifice its DCs to fight, you can start with 16 in your attacking stat and 18 in con. I agree there should be something to help str builds, but you don't need to split the class in two. you can and should be able to make a kineticist that can both attack and use an AOE well. You shouldn't need to chose. I also like how you completely ignored my summoner comparison, who again gets the same DC progression. The summoner can attack and use saves (although they are less MAD, but that's a separate issue we can solve elsewhere). It is posable. We do not need this dissection.

[tytalan]

By the way pronate you can’t do both that the problem. If you go the strike route you con is at best secondary which give you a -3 to DC if you go the DC route your str/Dex is secondary and you take a similar hit to your strike.

Add to that unless you dual element your always taking a chance of not being able to damage your opponents. It’s the same as the Cleric if you try to do both you fail which is why two main class builds make sense just like the cleric

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

By the way pronate you can’t do both that the problem. If you go the strike route you con is at best secondary which give you a -3 to DC if you go the DC route your str/Dex is secondary and you take a similar hit to your strike.

Add to that unless you dual element your always taking a chance of not being able to damage your opponents. It’s the same as the Cleric if you try to do both you fail which is why two main class builds make sense just like the cleric

except you can do both. you literally can. You can start with 18 con and 16 str or dex, and boost all three and wis. there is literally nothing stopping you from doing both now. And depending on how the playtest goes, there can be even less stopping you during the final release. You can make to hit con based and literally remove most of these issues.

[Kekkres]

Pronate11 wrote:

tytalan wrote:

By the way pronate you can’t do both that the problem. If you go the strike route you con is at best secondary which give you a -3 to DC if you go the DC route your str/Dex is secondary and you take a similar hit to your strike.

Add to that unless you dual element your always taking a chance of not being able to damage your opponents. It’s the same as the Cleric if you try to do both you fail which is why two main class builds make sense just like the cleric

except you can do both. you literally can. You can start with 18 con and 16 str or dex, and boost all three and wis. there is literally nothing stopping you from doing both now. And depending on how the playtest goes, there can be even less stopping you during the final release. You can make to hit con based and literally remove most of these issues.

well you need dex regardless, since the class is locked to light armor, so str builds at least are super MAD

[Pronate11]

Kekkres wrote:

Pronate11 wrote:

tytalan wrote:

By the way pronate you can’t do both that the problem. If you go the strike route you con is at best secondary which give you a -3 to DC if you go the DC route your str/Dex is secondary and you take a similar hit to your strike.

Add to that unless you dual element your always taking a chance of not being able to damage your opponents. It’s the same as the Cleric if you try to do both you fail which is why two main class builds make sense just like the cleric

except you can do both. you literally can. You can start with 18 con and 16 str or dex, and boost all three and wis. there is literally nothing stopping you from doing both now. And depending on how the playtest goes, there can be even less stopping you during the final release. You can make to hit con based and literally remove most of these issues.

well you need dex regardless, since the class is locked to light armor, so str builds at least are super MAD

Yes, and that is a separate issue that this proposed fix won't actually fix. medium armor can probably fix inside the power budget. Medium armor doesn't actually seem to take up that much of the power budget once you get light. It's the same AC either way, it just enables different builds.

[graystone]

Kekkres wrote:

well you need dex regardless, since the class is locked to light armor, so str builds at least are super MAD

This class is begging for the Sentinel Dedication + Armor Proficiency for scaling Heavy armor proficiency for str builds. That and Mighty Bulwark can cover ref saves.

[aobst128]

Light armor is manageable even if you max strength. You can still have an 18 con and 14 dex to max out a chain shirt at 5th level. You just can't have intelligence or charisma which limits your multiclass potential. Definitely would prefer medium armor but I don't think it kills the strength kineticist.

Edit: *only for humans damnit.

[PossibleCabbage]

graystone wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

well you need dex regardless, since the class is locked to light armor, so str builds at least are super MAD

This class is begging for the Sentinel Dedication + Armor Proficiency for scaling Heavy armor proficiency for str builds. That and Mighty Bulwark can cover ref saves.

It feels like Sentinel is the best option for Str builds, but I hate that Sentinel is the best option for Str builds.

This is especially awkward since if I want to build, say, a Geokineticist who is a Dwarf and emphasize Str something like the optimal progression is 1. Flexible Blasts 2. Placeholder 3. Armor Proficiency (General Feat) then retrain your 2nd level feat to Sentinel.

[graystone]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

graystone wrote:

Kekkres wrote:

well you need dex regardless, since the class is locked to light armor, so str builds at least are super MAD

This class is begging for the Sentinel Dedication + Armor Proficiency for scaling Heavy armor proficiency for str builds. That and Mighty Bulwark can cover ref saves.

It feels like Sentinel is the best option for Str builds, but I hate that Sentinel is the best option for Str builds.

Yeah, I have to agree.

PS: and I hate that for those that don't start with medium armor, a HUMAN Sentinel is the way to go for the extra general feat for Armor Proficiency... ;P

[Unicore]

Or you pick up medium armor as a general feat and boost dex 2x by level 10, making light armor fine by the time you would even need Sentinel. Earth’s shield option is champion good and you are a class that doesn’t/shouldn’t end your turn adjunct to enemies.

[PossibleCabbage]

Unicore wrote:

Earth’s shield option is champion good and you are a class that doesn’t/shouldn’t end your turn adjunct to enemies.

Earth's Shield option seems good until you realize that every Kineticist should be using a regular shield for the +2 AC (you don't need a feat to do this) so the Earth Shield infusion just lets you use Shield Block without the feat and without costing money to buy more shields (just actions to gather more rocks).

[Unicore]

At level 3, the earth shield is shield blocking for 9 hp. By 5, 12. By 7 15.

It obliterates real shields and the shield cantrip and can be repaired in an action.

It is good.

[Pronate11]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Earth’s shield option is champion good and you are a class that doesn’t/shouldn’t end your turn adjunct to enemies.

Earth's Shield option seems good until you realize that every Kineticist should be using a regular shield for the +2 AC (you don't need a feat to do this) so the Earth Shield infusion just lets you use Shield Block without the feat and without costing money to buy more shields (just actions to gather more rocks).

+2 to fort saves is nothing so sneeze at. Plus, it maxes at 33 (6 +3*9) hardness, and sturdy shield maxes at 20. there might be a way to get an extra 13 hardness, but thats probably the max. and you can use it multiple times with only two actions, instead of needing to replace the shield. worse for many smaller attack, better for a few bigger ones

[tytalan]

If you have a 18 con and a 16 str you are going to be 3 points short of a fighter at 20 level 1 point short of all others. If you a single element user your going to be useless against anyone immune or resist to your element because you DC is two less vs opponents that normally save when the DC is normal.

So with this build your not only not criting but your also often not doing damage vs opponents of your same element.

I think all of you are looking at this as a purely fighter type class which it is not that only one build type which I would say does work but the AOE build fails without legionary DCs.

[aobst128]

Yeah the shield option is great. Especially with the physical resistance ability you can get at 8th.

[aobst128]

An indestructible shield at level 1 might be a little too good honestly. Especially if you can poach it.

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

If you have a 18 con and a 16 str you are going to be 3 points short of a fighter at 20 level 1 point short of all others. If you a single element user your going to be useless against anyone immune or resist to your element because you DC is two less vs opponents that normally save when the DC is normal.

Do you know who else has this problem? Thaumaturges and inventors using non versatile weapons. except Kineticists use unarmed attack proficiency, and hand wraps of mighty blows, so they can pick up a unarmed attack that deals a different damage type, and be better at going against immunity than most martials without a versatile weapon. Plus, yet again, summoners exist and seem to be doing just fine on the save department.

[tytalan]

Pronate when was the last time you seen a Fighter/Champion/Ranger/Barbarian/Swashbuckler that didn’t have their primary attack stat maxed? You don’t that because crits are so important. When was the last time you say a caster that didn’t have their primary DC stat Maxed? You didn’t because DC are so important. This class not only have two primary stats but the DC is screwed by it’s proficiently. Maybe you’ve never ran PC over 10 level but I have and opponents have a hard time failing saves when the caster has all the bonuses. This class might as well not even bother.

Creating two builds makes sense it let people specialize so they can actually do what they want to while letting them dabble. As it is right now the only type of Kineticist that’s worth playing beyond 10 level is a dual or all element melee fighting/range type. The blaster build is just to weak without legendary DCs.

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

Pronate when was the last time you seen a Fighter/Champion/Ranger/Barbarian/Swashbuckler that didn’t have their primary attack stat maxed? You don’t that because crits are so important. When was the last time you say a caster that didn’t have their primary DC stat Maxed? You didn’t because DC are so important. This class not only have two primary stats but the DC is screwed by it’s proficiently. Maybe you’ve never ran PC over 10 level but I have and opponents have a hard time failing saves when the caster has all the bonuses. This class might as well not even bother.

Creating two builds makes sense it let people specialize so they can actually do what they want to while letting them dabble. As it is right now the only type of Kineticist that’s worth playing beyond 10 level is a dual or all element melee fighting/range type. The blaster build is just to weak without legendary DCs.

What part about "you can actually max both attack and DC" are you not getting? I am currently running a campaign thats gone from lvl 5 to lvl 18, with an inventor, and I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. that same campaign has a wild druid that uses wild shape all the time, often having -1 or 2 to hit compared to the martials. I have a champion using litany against rath every combat. they miss sometimes, and enemy's succeed on their saves more often, but its not that big of a deal. Also, I have literally never heard any one complain that the summoner can't use save spells, and that using them is a waste. becouse it isn't.

[Squiggit]

I agree there are some issues with the kineticist's accuracy.

A split build class path idea though is the worst possible solution, imo. Actually worse than just leaving it as is.

[Unicore]

I think the “accuracy issue” is intentional. This is class that should not be trying to flurry of attacks at boss monsters. It is not a single target striker

[Temperans]

Squiggit wrote:

I agree there are some issues with the kineticist's accuracy.

A split build class path idea though is the worst possible solution, imo. Actually worse than just leaving it as is.

Idk, if you had ranged kineticist and kinetic knight be two different paths then it would solve some of the issues given how ranged isn't very good with Str from the start.

For example, regular kineticist being unable to use melee blast but getting the level 1 feat to do so with finesse. While kinetic knight gets all the goodies we know and love and the cost of no range abilities.

I guess the people who end up losing are the people who want heavy armor, ranged abilities, and perfect scores to do everything.

*******************

P.S. I am saying make default kineticist purely ranged with a feat to enable finesse melee. Then have Kinetic Knight as a class archetype that changes things to be purely melee; Maybe a feat to get some range back.

[Pronate11]

Temperans wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

I agree there are some issues with the kineticist's accuracy.

A split build class path idea though is the worst possible solution, imo. Actually worse than just leaving it as is.

Idk, if you had ranged kineticist and kinetic knight be two different paths then it would solve some of the issues given how ranged isn't very good with Str from the start.

For example, regular kineticist being unable to use melee blast but getting the level 1 feat to do so with finesse. While kinetic knight gets all the goodies we know and love and the cost of no range abilities.

I guess the people who end up losing are the people who want heavy armor, ranged abilities, and perfect scores to do everything.

*******************

P.S. I am saying make default kineticist purely ranged with a feat to enable finesse melee. Then have Kinetic Knight as a class archetype that changes things to be purely melee; Maybe a feat to get some range back.

I mean, that seems worse than what we have now, where at the cost of one feat, they can use both melee and ranged blasts, and don't need a class archetype to use strength. How does your idea improve anything? how will it help where giving them whatever feats the class archetype would have to give them not help? Becouse I all can think of is armor, and I feal like the class can just give medium armor without the need of a class archetype.

[tytalan]

If your opponents are expected to save on a regular basis and you introduce a class that relies on saving throws but has -2 to DC giving the opponent 20% greater chance to crit save how is that playable. Add to that the same class imposes both a action fee and less damage when using these abilities how is that playable. There is not a single AOE in the class that doesn’t take 2 actions to use and 90% have the overflow tag. All I heard about when people where excited about this class is how it’s a blaster class that will do great AOE but this class does not do that between the lower damage the weaker DC the action tax. There’s not a caster in the game that will not out perform the Kineticist in this type of build.

[PossibleCabbage]

Unicore wrote:

I think the “accuracy issue” is intentional. This is class that should not be trying to flurry of attacks at boss monsters. It is not a single target striker

I think the only fix needed for the "accuracy issue" is to transpose the order of Critical Element (moves to 7th) and Blast Expertise (moves to 5th).

Since then the Kineticist has the same accuracy as the Inventor and the Thaumaturge and we know from experience that's good enough.

[Guntermench]

aobst128 wrote:

An indestructible shield at level 1 might be a little too good honestly. Especially if you can poach it.

I hope the caveat in Destructive Block about not being used with shields that can't be destroyed means it doesn't work with a shield that destroys itself. Otherwise that will get very nutty very quickly.

[Angel Hunter D]

aobst128 wrote:

An indestructible shield at level 1 might be a little too good honestly. Especially if you can poach it.

Don't you need to Gather and then take the action to Raise it? Sounds decent for 2 actions but not too good.

[Guntermench]

Angel Hunter D wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

An indestructible shield at level 1 might be a little too good honestly. Especially if you can poach it.

Don't you need to Gather and then take the action to Raise it? Sounds decent for 2 actions but not too good.

Only if you're otherwise using something with Overflow.

[Unicore]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Unicore wrote:

I think the “accuracy issue” is intentional. This is class that should not be trying to flurry of attacks at boss monsters. It is not a single target striker

I think the only fix needed for the "accuracy issue" is to transpose the order of Critical Element (moves to 7th) and Blast Expertise (moves to 5th).

Since then the Kineticist has the same accuracy as the Inventor and the Thaumaturge and we know from experience that's good enough.

I agree with this change.

[aobst128]

Guntermench wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

An indestructible shield at level 1 might be a little too good honestly. Especially if you can poach it.

Don't you need to Gather and then take the action to Raise it? Sounds decent for 2 actions but not too good.

Only if you're otherwise using something with Overflow.

Looks like it does expend the element unfortunately. Less useful than I thought it was.

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

If your opponents are expected to save on a regular basis and you introduce a class that relies on saving throws but has -2 to DC giving the opponent 20% greater chance to crit save how is that playable. Add to that the same class imposes both a action fee and less damage when using these abilities how is that playable. There is not a single AOE in the class that doesn’t take 2 actions to use and 90% have the overflow tag. All I heard about when people where excited about this class is how it’s a blaster class that will do great AOE but this class does not do that between the lower damage the weaker DC the action tax. There’s not a caster in the game that will not out perform the Kineticist in this type of build.

How is -2 mean a 20% increases in crit successes? if they would need to roll a nat 20 or 19 to crit succeed with a caster DC, that's 2/20, or 10%. with a kineticist DC, they would need to roll a nat 17,18,19, or 20, thats 4/20 or 20%. A ten percent increase. and only for 6 levels. I do think this could be a problem, but your solution is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think they could get away with legendary class dc in the final version, or maybe they could find a way to give it +1 somehow, as thats all I think it really needs. I also think that damage should be higher, but you also have to keep in mind, you can't compare it to the casters highest level spell slots, as you can do this all day, the caster can do it 2-3 times. Disintegrate does more single target damage than a lvl 11 fighers power attack.

[Martialmasters]

Class DC in general has been over valued in budgets for a while.

[Kekkres]

Unicore wrote:

I think the “accuracy issue” is intentional. This is class that should not be trying to flurry of attacks at boss monsters. It is not a single target striker

in a system that loves to throw single target fights all over the place in ap's "you're not supposed to be focusing on one target" is basically a death sentance for a character that is supposed to even resemble a martial

[PossibleCabbage]

Martialmasters wrote:

Class DC in general has been over valued in budgets for a while.

This might be the class that gets the most mileage out of its class DC to date. Since even though a lot of your good AoE impulses are overflow, they're two actions so they're kind of spammable if they let you just stand there and throw boulders.

[Guntermench]

aobst128 wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

Angel Hunter D wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

An indestructible shield at level 1 might be a little too good honestly. Especially if you can poach it.

Don't you need to Gather and then take the action to Raise it? Sounds decent for 2 actions but not too good.

Only if you're otherwise using something with Overflow.

Looks like it does expend the element unfortunately. Less useful than I thought it was.

Yeah I missed that too.

[tytalan]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Class DC in general has been over valued in budgets for a while.

This might be the class that gets the most mileage out of its class DC to date. Since even though a lot of your good AoE impulses are overflow, they're two actions so they're kind of spammable if they let you just stand there and throw boulders.

Not likely with the lower DC proficiency. With overflow being a action tax on two action abilities on top of not getting legendary DC proficiency. Plus all the AOE trigger AO. This aspect of the class need work which was why I made my suggestion but since pronate hates clerics he keeps yelling NO NO NO

[Pronate11]

tytalan wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Class DC in general has been over valued in budgets for a while.

This might be the class that gets the most mileage out of its class DC to date. Since even though a lot of your good AoE impulses are overflow, they're two actions so they're kind of spammable if they let you just stand there and throw boulders.

Not likely with the lower DC proficiency. With overflow being a action tax on two action abilities on top of not getting legendary DC proficiency. Plus all the AOE trigger AO. This aspect of the class need work which was why I made my suggestion but since pronate hates clerics he keeps yelling NO NO NO

A, I have made many suggestions on how to fix this issue. B, I am not the only one on here saying that this is a terrible idea. C, I don't "hate clerics" I play a cloistered cleric. But most people agree that war priest is terrible becouse they made its DC worse to make its attack better. Presumably they would make its attack better than a war priest, but still. You have made arguments on why the numbers are too low, but almost nothing on why we can't just increase the numbers. There is room in its power budget to fix these things. so why are you so dead set that the only way to fix these things is to separate the class? All in all, you seem really disingenuous, and unwilling to comment on my actual points.