Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
It doesn't look like there's a thread for this adventure yet; apologies if there is.
The cairn wights in the first combat have a critical failure outcome for Funereal Dirge of: "The creature is frightened 2 and takes a –2 status penalty to saving throws against drain life." This is problematic on a couple levels.
First (and less problematic), it doesn't do much: the status penalty from the crit fail doesn't stack with the status penalty from frightened, so it does very little in the short term.
Second (and potentially quite problematic), the status penalty has no listed duration. As written, the effect is permanent. Moreover, the ability lacks any relevant traits, so there's no way to remove the effect: a PC who critically fails this save takes a permanent -2 status penalty against Drain Life.
By the rules of OrgPlay, that's a permanent negative condition that isn't cleared at the end of the adventure, and thus the PC must be marked as dead. This is *almost surely* not intended, but it's the scenario as written.
I have read the table variance rules very, very carefully and repeatedly. There is no ambiguity or lack of clarity in how Funereal Dirge works, it's just (probably) written incorrectly from what the designer intended it to do; it has the same phrasing in the Bestiary.
Within the bounds of the OrgPlay rules, am I allowed to not run the ability as written? If so, what gives me that permission? Is it the dictum to "provide a fun, engaging, consistent experience", and being marked as dead due to a badly written ability isn't "fun", and wouldn't be "consistent" with how most GMs would run it (because they overlooked the problem)? Is it that this sentence doesn't include the word "abilities", so the GM can change monster abilities: "No changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, statistics, traits, or weapon"
I'm asking for guidance on the OrgPlay principle that gives the GM permission to not "run [the] Pathfinder Society adventures as written".
LeftHandShake wrote: It doesn't look like there's a thread for this adventure yet; apologies if there is.
The cairn wights in the first combat have a critical failure outcome for Funereal Dirge of: "The creature is frightened 2 and takes a –2 status penalty to saving throws against drain life." This is problematic on a couple levels.
First (and less problematic), it doesn't do much: the status penalty from the crit fail doesn't stack with the status penalty from frightened, so it does very little in the short term.
Second (and potentially quite problematic), the status penalty has no listed duration. As written, the effect is permanent. Moreover, the ability lacks any relevant traits, so there's no way to remove the effect: a PC who critically fails this save takes a permanent -2 status penalty against Drain Life.
By the rules of OrgPlay, that's a permanent negative condition that isn't cleared at the end of the adventure, and thus the PC must be marked as dead. This is *almost surely* not intended, but it's the scenario as written.
I have read the table variance rules very, very carefully and repeatedly. There is no ambiguity or lack of clarity in how Funereal Dirge works, it's just (probably) written incorrectly from what the designer intended it to do; it has the same phrasing in the Bestiary.
Within the bounds of the OrgPlay rules, am I allowed to not run the ability as written? If so, what gives me that permission? Is it the dictum to "provide a fun, engaging, consistent experience", and being marked as dead due to a badly written ability isn't "fun", and wouldn't be "consistent" with how most GMs would run it (because they overlooked the problem)? Is it that this sentence doesn't include the word "abilities", so the GM can change monster abilities: "No changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, statistics, traits, or weapon"
I'm asking for guidance on the OrgPlay principle that gives the GM permission to not "run [the] Pathfinder Society adventures as written".
I think the simplest interpretation here is that the cairn wights ability lasts as long as the frightened condition lasts since it's a condition that decays on its own absent something keeping it in play. In the case of the critical fail effect, you're correct it's redundant unless someone has an ability which may reduce the incoming frightened effect. In that instance, a character who crit fails might only gain frightened 1, but still have -2 to saves vs. drain life.
To your point, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that any scenario author intentionally added an AoE death effect that was permanent and could never be removed should a character fail a single save. That's fundamentally against much of the game's design and skips over other potential conditions which would be more appropriate liked Doomed. It's far outside of a level 4 threat's abilities. So I think you rightfully identified why it would be problematic to run the way you read it the first time and that the text around the ability may be wrong and/or ambiguous (e.g. lacking a duration). I can't speak for campaign leadership, but I believe that you would be encouraged to use your discretion in this case and take the less punitive interpretation. In my experience, no one is going to jump out of a wall if you make a judgement call like that at a table and if you really are worried, talk to your venture officer to get their opinion.
Relevant Rule from the CRB (which we're bound by as much as the Org Play Guidelines):
Ambiguous Rules, Core Rulebook pg. 443 2.0 wrote: Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
The cairn wraith ability was merely copied from the Bestiary 2 (where it has the same missing duration), and I'm not aware of any correction that has been provided. My expectation would be that the -2 status penalty to saves against drain life is meant to last for a minute, which would adress both of the problems. Alternatively, I'd let the effect end when the creature causing it dies.
In a society scenario, I'd generally decide in favor of the players if I think (as is the case here) that the catastrophic outcome is not intended but the consequence of an oversight by author or editor. Keep in mind that PFS scenarios have an abysmal track record when it comes to catching issues like that before publication. I'd probably check with my VA or VC afterwards, but if I were to encounter a situation like this, I'd opt for what I think is reasonable.
As an aside, I've been unable to find the rule in the guide that says PCs shall be marked dead when they have an unresolved negative condition, curse, etc. at the end of the scenario. Did that get removed since I last checked (season 1, probably?!), or am I just too blind to find it with the current format?
Relevant to this discussion, in the section on Table Variation in the guide:
Table Variation wrote: Beyond the above, GMs are encouraged to make choices which would result in the most enjoyable play experience for everyone at the table and that emphasize PCs are the heroes of the story. Some examples of GM discretion include the following.
[...]
Unclear rules, or situations or player actions not covered by the rules.
If you're not changing the monster ability, and instead just choosing to read it in a way that addresses obvious ambiguity around it, then I believe you're well within the guidance we're provided.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Thanks. I'm aware of that rule from the box on p444, but my understanding is that the OrgPlay table variance rules qualify what can and can't be adjusted by appealing to that rule. That is, the specified list of what can't be changed under the "run as written" OrgPlay specify elements of the adventure that cannot be changed by the GM, period. Is that not actually the case? Does p444 override even the OrgPlay table variation rules?
I don't think any author *intentionally* made an effect with this outcome. The creature is *almost surely* written incorrectly: I think its designer meant for the -2 penalty to stack with frightened, and for it to either expire when frightened does or to last (say) 1 minute. There are abilities that work like that (e.g. "frightened 2 and fleeing as long as it's frightened"), but it's not written that way.
That's why I specified in my post that there's no ambiguity or lack of clarity-- things that the OrgPlay guide lets you fix. I really wish the guide would clearly give GMs authority to fix *anything* that's problematic. Instead, we get this statement (in the Table Variation Appendix):
"As a Pathfinder Society GM, you have the right and responsibility to make whatever judgments, within the rules, that you feel are necessary at your table to ensure everyone has a fair and fun experience. This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com."
To me, the very plain meaning of that passage is that GMs can fix anything to make it fair *unless* it would violate the OrgPlay or Pathfinder rules. Those include the prior list of what it means to "run as written". They should be more clear about what has primacy: the CRB, OrgPlay rules, or fairness & fun.
I understand that no one's going to come hunt me down if I don't mark this player as dead due to a badly written monster ability. But I'd like to not have to feel like I'm breaking the rules when doing that.
Quote: GMs should run Pathfinder Society adventures as written, which means:
No change to major plot points and interactions
No addition or subtraction to the number of monsters other than scaling directed by the scenario
No changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, statistics, traits, or weapons.
No alteration of mechanics of player characters,
Nor banning of legal character options
You may think you're running a monster RAW here, but I'd argue you're imposing as much judgement on the ability by giving it a permanent duration as someone who chooses some other time (a minute, the duration of the frightened condition, etc). You're choosing as a GM to interpret a missing duration on a monster ability as an implicit statement that it's permanent even though that interpretation is obviously problematic.
Those items above are the 5 prohibitions. If you choose to give that ability a reasonable duration, rather than assume it's permanent, you have not changed a major plot point or interaction as there's nothing indicating in the plot that this monsters ability should be a major plot point. You've also not changed the number of monsters. You have not modified the text of the monster ability -- there's no text to modify. It doesn't have a duration. Lacking a duration is different that permanent. Y also have not altered a player characters mechanics or banned a legal character option.
All you did was make a judgement call in the face of ambiguous information. In this case, a permanent negative condition which would result in a dead character with no recourse by the player is pretty clearly an non-ideal outcome. Literally any other reading of that ability is more consistent with the general guidance of how to handle ambiguous rules, which are are encouraged to follow. The core rules include that passage.
I'm gonna bow out here because I can't speak with any more authority on this and short of a VO or campaign clarification here I don't know if I'll be able to convince you, but you did the right thing in the moment by choosing not to punish players for a likely oversight. Maybe I'll be proven wrong here and that it was intentional after all, but even that's okay because the point is that you're doing your best to handle what's always gonna be a little bit of a messy process adjudicating a living game like this.
albadeon wrote: As an aside, I've been unable to find the rule in the guide that says PCs shall be marked dead when they have an unresolved negative condition, curse, etc. at the end of the scenario. Did that get removed since I last checked (season 1, probably?!), or am I just too blind to find it with the current format? After the Adventure
After the Adventure wrote: The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:
Death
Permanent negative effects, including polymorph or petrification
Curses
The point brought up by the OP is that if this effect is permanent, it's a permanent negative effect with no tags. In many ways it's worse than death because you can deal with death using a successful use of AcP. But in this case the effect is uncategorized and untagged. It's not a curse, it's not spell. There's effectively no recourse, which is why it's also wildly unlikely that the ability is meant to be interpreted that way.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
I don't think I'm making a judgment call. Here's the second paragraph of the CRB rules entry for "Conditions" on p453; it's the first "mechanical" paragraph after a brief, general definition of a condition.
Quote: Conditions are persistent; when you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition cause it to end. It is explicitly stated that "conditions are persistent" until they are ended in one of those three ways. There are other monster abilities that inflict conditions on a PC with no duration or terminal condition, and they're assumed to be permanent until removed by some other means. This is why I said in both prior posts that there isn't any ambiguity. In this case, the rules are clear on what happens.
So the allowance for GM discretion with respect to "[u]nclear rules, or situations or player actions not covered by the rules" doesn't help. Likewise, consider the strength of the language in these sentences:
"This does not mean you can contradict rules or restrictions outlined in this document, a published Pathfinder source, errata document, or official FAQ on paizo.com. What it does mean is that only you can judge what is right for your table during cases not covered in these sources."
and
"GMs should run Pathfinder Society adventures as written, which means: no change... no addition... no changes... no alteration... nor banning"
versus...
"Beyond the above, GMs are encouraged to make choices..."
The first quote is from the table variation appendix, and is very clear and direct about what *cannot* be violated. The second quote lists the things we can't change, specifying what it means to "run as written" (and my understanding is that "should" is meant as an imperative). The third quote immediately follows that list, and it qualifies itself as subordinate to it: "beyond the above".
This is what I mean by the GM lacking the clear authority to fix some problems with PFS scenarios. I'm aware of other problems that have come up, as mentioned above by albadeon. If someone from the OrgPlay team is reading this: please change the table variance document to allow GMs to make *any* adjustment that they believe to be reasonable and fair, even if it would clearly violate the scenario text, Pathfinder rules, or OrgPlay guidelines.
Also: I renew my question about what has primacy: the boxed rule on p444 about "problematic repercussions" or the OrgPlay guidelines about what can't be altered by GMs.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
LeftHandShake wrote: I don't think I'm making a judgment call. Here's the second paragraph of the CRB rules entry for "Conditions" on p453; it's the first "mechanical" paragraph after a brief, general definition of a condition.
Quote: Conditions are persistent; when you’re affected by a condition, its effects last until the stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition cause it to end. It is explicitly stated that "conditions are persistent" until they are ended in one of those three ways. There are other monster abilities that inflict conditions on a PC with no duration or terminal condition, and they're assumed to be permanent until removed by some other means. This is why I said in both prior posts that there isn't any ambiguity. In this case, the rules are clear on what happens.
To be fair, it could quite reasonably be argued that a "condition" in terms of the rules is not just any effect, but only those specific conditions listed in the "list of conditions" in the conditions appendix on p618ff of the CRB, e.g. blinded, broken, clumsy, concealed, etc.
Therefore, rules specifically concerning (e.g. the duration of) conditions do not necessarily apply to other non-"condition" effects, such as the cairn wight's "status penalty to saving throws against drain life".
And if there are no clear, unambiguous rules then it requires a gm call...
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