Questions about Urgathoa’s relationship.Why does Charon let Urgathoa and Zyphus crash in Abaddon? and Why is it that Urgathoa and Zon-Kuthon as allies?

[Konradleijon]

I mean does Charon let Urgathoa and Zyphis chill in Abanndon to piss of Pharmisa?

and I say some memes about how Urgathoga’s Involved with Zon-Kuthon. with her listed as Zon-Kuthon “ally” so what’s their relation?

[Temperans]

Charon, Urgathoa, Zyphus, and the daemons all came into a deal where Urgatboa and Zyphus would get a divine realm in Abaddon, but the wiki does not say what Charon or the daemons got out of that deal. My guess is that it was a mutual non-aggression, maybe a deal to cooperate?

Zyphus' is all about accidental deaths which is seen as the reason why he competes with Pharasma. Although its probably more likely caused by his followers actively killing people "accidentally". Which probably causes all sorts of problems for people who weren't supposed to die. Also doesn't help he sees Urgathoa as a mentor when Urgathoa really is opposed to Pharasma.

Charon seems like a person that wants to maintain status quo, which would explain why he spends so much effort trying to hide the disagreemts between the horsemen. So Pharasma is not really at issue outside of the fact that Charon guides lost souls to the abyss.

As for Urgathoa and Zon-kuthon. She is the goddess of hedonism and undead. He is the god of pain and doesn't care about other deities, except to torture their followers. So likely its a matter of shared interests.

[keftiu]

Urgathoa and ZK both want to harm the living, and both have their faiths held in good esteem in Geb.

[Konradleijon]

keftiu wrote:

Urgathoa and ZK both want to harm the living, and both have their faiths held in good esteem in Geb.

so it seems like Urgathoa is the closest thing has to a ally that isn’t his sister.

I presume she’s the only other major god/ess on speaking terms with him

[Temperans]

I am pretty sure he is in speaking terms with other evil deities. Just doesn't care enough to stop doing his own thing in the shadow plane.

[Konradleijon]

Temperans wrote:

I am pretty sure he is in speaking terms with other evil deities. Just doesn't care enough to stop doing his own thing in the shadow plane.

My HC is that Lamshtu asked ever deity (not Rovhog) she can if they want to mate with her. of the people propositioned. Calistia, Urgathoa, and Zon-Kuthon, where the only ones of the major gods that agreed.

I HC that Zon-Kuthon acts like Melvin from Yugioh: the Abridged series.

[Perpdepog]

My guess is Charon doesn't care. Infinity is a slippery concept when it comes to things like planar geography, and letting some other deities with similarly aligned goals take a piece of their infinity to make their own doesn't seem all that big a deal.

Not to mention it means Charon can keep an eye on both Urgathoa and Zyphus just in case. Recall that, to daemonkind, reality is a game where the only winner is the last one to die.

[Konradleijon]

Perpdepog wrote:

My guess is Charon doesn't care. Infinity is a slippery concept when it comes to things like planar geography, and letting some other deities with similarly aligned goals take a piece of their infinity to make their own doesn't seem all that big a deal.

Not to mention it means Charon can keep an eye on both Urgathoa and Zyphus just in case. Recall that, to daemonkind, reality is a game where the only winner is the last one to die.

I always pictured Charon acting like a grumpy man. desperately trying to keep the young ins in the Horseman and the entirety of Abanndon in line.

then he lets this random hunger chick in his house and who goes through his fridge.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I mean it's not like he was gonna eat anything in that fridge anyway. It's probably all spoiled and smelly at this point, so if she wants to eat it he's not gonna argue.

[Konradleijon]

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

I mean it's not like he was gonna eat anything in that fridge anyway. It's probably all spoiled and smelly at this point, so if she wants to eat it he's not gonna argue.

Urgathoa is a trash women who eats your old expired food as she crashes in your house. like a living garbage disposal

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Konradleijon wrote:

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

I mean it's not like he was gonna eat anything in that fridge anyway. It's probably all spoiled and smelly at this point, so if she wants to eat it he's not gonna argue.

Urgathoa is a trash women who eats your old expired food as she crashes in your house. like a living garbage disposal

And then tries to eat YOU once the fridge is empty.

[Perpdepog]

I've always seen Charon as the most patient of the four. It's his patience and willingness to sit, observe, and play the long game that have kept him as the first, last, and only Horseman of Death for all this time while his peers keep playing their game of Dead Men's Boots.

[The Raven Black]

Zon-kuthon is the god of darkness. Many undead like darkness. And several hate the sun as much as ZK does.

[Konradleijon]

Perpdepog wrote:

I've always seen Charon as the most patient of the four. It's his patience and willingness to sit, observe, and play the long game that have kept him as the first, last, and only Horseman of Death for all this time while his peers keep playing their game of Dead Men's Boots.

i picture him as a grumpy dad taking care of his younger kids (the other horseman) and trying to get the young uns off his young (mortals)

[Yqatuba]

I was wondering something similar. Specifically, Urgatoa and Apollyon are on the same plane, have the same alignment, and the same portfolio (disease)? So, are they friends or enemies? I would guess friends, since she hasn't killed him a long time ago. She's a full-fledged deity, while he's "just" a CR 29 Horseman. Obviously, he wouldn't stand a chance.

[Temperans]

That is honestly an interesting thought.

But I don't think they meet often while they are on the same "plane" that plane is huge. Considering that Charon is involved it wouldn't surprise me if he is keeping any fights under tight seal, it might even be one of the reasons why he helped Urgatoa get a piece land.

[Deloth Vyrr]

Edit: Oops, I didn't notice how old this thread was, I stumbled across it through a google search. Sorry for the necro (pun intended?)

-

When talking about Urgathoa and Daemons, it's worth noting that if you look at the stat blocks of most Daemons, including the 4 Horsemen themselves, there is a lot of necromancy/undeath themes going on. Animate Dead, Create Undead, etc. are all tools used liberally by Daemonkind in their ends of ending all life. This at least suggests that Daemons are on good terms with the Pallid Princess.

And at least in the short term, Urgathoa and the rest of the denizens of Abaddon's goals are fairly well aligned. Daemons aren't currently going around hunting undead, they are focused entirely on the living creatures of the material plane for now (aside from trolling the abyss from time to time).

Of course we know that the ultimate endgame for Daemonkind is the cessation of all things, themselves included. So once all mortals are gone, they would turn on the undead, demons, devils, angels, and so on, and should they somehow emerge victorious, the final stage is to turn on themselves.

But that is an eternity away (and ultimately a fruitless endeavor, but that won't stop them from trying), so for now, Urgathoa and Daemonkind make sense as allies of convenience if nothing else.

[SOLDIER-1st]

As a side note, Charon probably doesn't have the power to stop Urgathoa or Zyphus from living there even if he wasn't benefiting from it somehow. Abbadon is at a dearth of full gods, particularly compared to the good aligned planes, so having some muscle to act as a deterrent is prudent.

[Arkat]

SOLDIER-1st wrote:

As a side note, Charon probably doesn't have the power to stop Urgathoa or Zyphus from living there even if he wasn't benefiting from it somehow. Abbadon is at a dearth of full gods, particularly compared to the good aligned planes, so having some muscle to act as a deterrent is prudent.

I was going to say something similar.

Charon is a Horseman which, iirc, that makes him a demigod.

Urgathoa and Zyphus are full-fledged deities. They're significantly more powerful than Charon.

[James Jacobs]

Power is what it really boils down to. Charon is powerful, but he still has to play by the rules as a level 30 creature with a stat block. Urgathoa and Zyphus are deities and the only rules they play by are the rules of the narrative we (or the GM) want to tell. In this case, there's a sort of political agreement between them all. It's all narratively driven rather than rules driven.

[Benjamin Tait]

Yeah, plus Urgathoa is majorly powerful, but seems more reactionary than actively threatening. She just wants to party - the Horsemen would be better off leaving her alone/cooperating with her than drawing her ire. Let the girl party!

[Scarablob]

Daemons want nothing more than to finally end the cycle of souls, and through it all things. Undeath existing by itself disrupt the cycle, which is why Pharasma hate them and Urgathoa. Thus, helping Urgathoa spread undeath seems to be a good investment for daemons. At worse, it keep Pharasma busy and direct her attention away from them, and at best, Urgathoa actively further their goal merely by existing.

No idea for Zyphus tho, I'm not deep into his lore.

[Benjamin Tait]

Scarablob wrote:

Daemons want nothing more than to finally end the cycle of souls, and through it all things. Undeath existing by itself disrupt the cycle, which is why Pharasma hate them and Urgathoa. Thus, helping Urgathoa spread undeath seems to be a good investment for daemons. At worse, it keep Pharasma busy and direct her attention away from them, and at best, Urgathoa actively further their goal merely by existing.

No idea for Zyphus tho, I'm not deep into his lore.

Zyphus lives in Urgathoas realm and is basically protected by her, being something of a student for the Pallid Princess. Dudes a god but isn't especially big time so he needs the help (he thinks hes gonna overthrow the Lady of Graves, the little scamp).

[The Raven Black]

It seems that all deities in Abbadon have some axe to grind with Pharasma.

[Nezzmith]

The Raven Black wrote:

It seems that all deities in Abbadon have some axe to grind with Pharasma.

Abaddon is the realm of death and evil in a metaphysical concept. Tell the machine to condense evil down to a single idea and the machine will spit out: "The Other that ends your existence."

All of the Abaddon Divinities share this theme in some way, but I personally find it fascinating that they all seem to not embody Death as a fact of existence like Pharasma does, but instead represent concepts borne from mortal's experiences with Death.

Take the two Gods of the Wastes: Urgathoa and Zyphus.

Both were mortals before they were gods. Urgathoa fled Pharasma's endless lines and was the first mortal soul able to escape back to the Universe and as such, created the concept of Undeath. Or a rejection of Death itself, in contrast to Pharasma. Urgathoa represents the horror of death not functioning or being overpowered by need.

Then there's Zyphus. He's the first mortal who rejected judgement. His death was of little consequence, and he considered his life unfinished, his story unwritten. When Pharasma herself attempted to offer him an afterlife, he vehemently refused on such a scale that he became Pathfinder's representative of Indeterminism. Zyphus represents the fear of death ending a mortal's story before they've accomplished their dreams and goals.

Without including the Horsemen, it's clear that Abaddon uniquely lays claim to being Pharasma's rivals on account of the fact that when the Gods wove mortality into existence, they honestly thought mortals would appreciate their existences ending.

There's no doubt in my mind that Pharasma foresaw that Urgathoa and Zyphus would result from her hand in creating the concept of mortality, and that's why she doesn't bother antagonizing them. Ultimately, very few mortals will ever consider death as something they deserve, and so Pharasma will never win the hearts of the majority of those who live.

[Eldritch Yodel]

Will say, Lo Shu Po does somewhat throw a spanner in the works with her also being in Abaddon despite not having much to do with death, but then she less has her own divine domain there and just lives in sewers of the one city in Abaddon which specifically is open to non-daemons.

[The Raven Black]

Eldritch Yodel wrote:

Will say, Lo Shu Po does somewhat throw a spanner in the works with her also being in Abaddon despite not having much to do with death, but then she less has her own divine domain there and just lives in sewers of the one city in Abaddon which specifically is open to non-daemons.

Maybe it being her territory is why Norgorber settled on ruling the underground of Axis even though he is NE.

A note also that Lo Shu Po got her divinity from eating a dead deity and ascended to full blown godhood by stealing the Night domain from the god that would become the patron of undead in Tian Xia. There are still links with death and undeath there, though not directly with Pharasma.