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Clearly on completing the spell the caster 1) has a shield (made of force)...
I would push back on this, as the force described in the spell may be called the same thing as the item "shield", but it is most definitely distinct in the actual world of the game, and so the question is does anything that uses the word "shield" count as the category of items known as "shields" for all intents and purposes? I would say no, not necessarily, but... perhaps in this case. I'm not really sure one way or the other, but at the very least it isn't "clearly" the case imo.
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Is it possible to use the shield cantrip for a shield bash, RAW?
No.
The spell creates a force effect that gives +1 to AC and access to a special Shield Block reaction.
That's it. It does not give you an actual shield. It does not allow you to perform a shield bash.
Note that the spell description specifically mentions that the force shield does not occupy a hand. This means the force shield is not wielded in any way, shape, or form, and thus can not be used as a weapon.
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There was a thread on shield feats (e.g. aggressive block) with the cantrip that ended inconclusively (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs434kq?Aggressive-block-with-spell-shield#1).
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The shield spell creates a spell effect. It does not create a shield item and shouldn't be allowed to be used for things that require a shield item.
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Spells are allowed to create items. The shield spell does say it creates a shield. The argument is plausible. The problem is Paizo uses natural language which could allow this. Its up to your GM.
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I think that it's something meant for shields items.
Also, even if allowed, what about lvl 4+ characters that have access to striking runes?
In terms of balance, I just see 2 issues:
- Finding a proper way to deal with fundamental runes ( it's a cost that even a shield cantrip user would have to pay ).
- The shield's damage. The spell says "You raise a magical shield of force". Though it's a shield made of force it would be required to only do bludgeoning damage, because giving it "force" damage would be an insane powercreep.
I don't understand how runes are involved. You can't even apply runes to a physical shield.
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To get runes on it you need a shield spike or shield boss. Neither of which is relevant to the shield spell
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The RAW is admittedly ambiguous, but I would not allow it. It makes the Shield cantrip Too good to be true vs, say, a buckler.
So something that acts like a Martial that only deals [no traits] 1d4 B, with no real way to increase the damage, is too good? I'm missing something here... :P
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The RAW is admittedly ambiguous, but I would not allow it. It makes the Shield cantrip Too good to be true vs, say, a buckler.So something that acts like a Martial that only deals [no traits] 1d4 B, with no real way to increase the damage, is too good? I'm missing something here... :P
Shield block without paying a feat, with an automatically increasing hardness, that cannot be destroyed for good and that needs no repair, but only the 10 minutes cooldown.
If you add shield bash, why would anyone take a buckler ?
Not to mention that you can use it with your two hands occupied.
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Ok, let's see: You're definitely not wielding this shield because then it doesn't require a free hand. How do you attack with something you're not wielding?
Also, since you're not wielding it, you can't do Doubling Rings shenanigans to give this shield any kind of fundamental runes. So even IF you could bash with it, you'd be stuck with a 1d4 bludgeoning weapon. At which point you might as well just punch the enemy.
Only potential upsides I could see from using such a shield bash over a fist (and I still think it's outright impossible):
- It's leathal damage which can matter with immunities.
- It's (probably) a magical weapon wich can matter with resistances.
- As a force effect, one could argue that it deals full damage against incorporeal creatures.
But either way, it's still a martial weapon and if you're trained in those, you'd better have a better means of attack.
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I don't quite understand how being able to Shield Bash would be effective improvement at all. Shield Bash is a d4 damage, requires martial weapon proficiency and has no traits.
You can just headbutt them for d4 with agile and finesse instead and this requires no hands at all.
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I don't quite understand how being able to Shield Bash would be effective improvement at all. Shield Bash is a d4 damage, requires martial weapon proficiency and has no traits.
You can just headbutt them for d4 with agile and finesse instead and this requires no hands at all.
Then why try to add shield bash to the cantrip, which just never mentions it and talks only about raising and blocking ?
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Thanks for everyone's input above.
For clarity, this was not a power-gamer advice question, so matters of effectiveness vs headbutt are not important (although the point is taken). It's just a Rules question - does RAW allow it?
It seems the answer is the same as for the Aggressive Block which someone else asked about: RAW probably would allow it, but is not crystal clear.
Thanks! Other creative views welcome of course.
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion reading the same thread that I did, as it seemed like the near unanimous consensus was that you can't do it because it's not a "shield" item, which is what the feat seems to be describing, and you're not "wielding".
If anything, I'd say ask to your GM about whether it can't be used as a weapon, can be used with the standard shield bash statline, or can be used but counts as an improvised weapon (I'd probably go with this approach if someone asked, personally).
Yeah, what I am reading is the replies fall into one of two answers. It isn't allowed, or it would be pointless even if it was allowed.
I don't understand how runes are involved. You can't even apply runes to a physical shield.I think that it's something meant for shields items.
Also, even if allowed, what about lvl 4+ characters that have access to striking runes?
In terms of balance, I just see 2 issues:
- Finding a proper way to deal with fundamental runes ( it's a cost that even a shield cantrip user would have to pay ).
- The shield's damage. The spell says "You raise a magical shield of force". Though it's a shield made of force it would be required to only do bludgeoning damage, because giving it "force" damage would be an insane powercreep.
I was thinking about a progression.
Or was it just about using 1d4 shield bash damage during lvl 1-3 because reasons or flavor?
If it's something the character wants to keep doing at higher levels too, my reasoning stands ( it was obvious a character wouldn't have been ble to get it through attached weapons, reason why i mentioned an alternative).
I see what you meant now. That makes sense.
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Shield block without paying a feat, with an automatically increasing hardness, that cannot be destroyed for good and that needs no repair, but only the 10 minutes cooldown.
If you add shield bash, why would anyone take a buckler ?
Well, bucklers are NOT known for their hardness [people don't take one to BLOCK] so you take one for a free hand and getting a bonus on AC with no cooldown. As a bonus, you can get magic ones. Seems like a fine reason to buckler.
Not to mention that you can use it with your two hands occupied.
As mentioned a kick is LITERALLY better in every way: damage can be boosted, it has traits, EVERYONE has proficiency, ect. I'm assuming this is a question of 'can I do it' and not one of 'do I get some sneaky advantage out of it' as it's not as good as slapping someone. I'm not seeing the added value as there isn't a time I can think of that it'd be advantageous to do so. IMO, it's an academic exercise [can it be done] instead of a power gaming move of any kind.
I would say that the case for using shield bash is flimsy at best. From a pure rules perspective I probably wouldn't allow it. Especially because the force shield is fragile enough to be popped by one block and then need 10 minutes to recharge.
Balance wise, the gains are so small that I probably wouldn't mind it, with the caveat that doing so pops it as if it was used to block. Sacrificing your once per fight shield (and an action to cast it) seems like a fine cost to balance protecting your fist from hurting it on a spiky or corrosive critter, or doing marginally more damage to a ghost. Feels creative and cool without being overpowered.
For me it comes down to the Attack Trait. The shield cantrip doesn't have the Attack Trait so it can't be used to attack.
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I can see this being added into the Spell Trickster archetype eventually, but as it stands it's a no go for reasons that have already been laid out pretty well.
For me it comes down to the Attack Trait. The shield cantrip doesn't have the Attack Trait so it can't be used to attack.
They aren't exactly consistent with that kind of thing: for instance, Withering Grasp or Deity's Strike hits with a spell roll but has no attack trait.
Add to that that shield wouldn't be a spell attack roll if it were to be used, so it'd be more akin to something like Dragon Claws that gives you a 'normal' attack with an attack roll and no attack trait. We don't really have any spells that summon weapons to compare to to see if they'd have the trait.
Is it possible to use the shield cantrip for a shield bash, RAW?
Shield cantrip (from AoN) >> "You raise a magical shield of force. This counts as using the Raise a Shield action, giving you a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn, but it doesn't require a hand to use.
While the spell is in effect, you can use the Shield Block reaction with your magic shield. The shield has Hardness 5. After you use Shield Block, the spell ends and you can't cast it again for 10 minutes. Unlike a normal Shield Block, you can use the spell's reaction against the magic missile spell."
Shield Bash (also AoN) >> "A shield bash is not actually a weapon, but a maneuver in which you thrust or swing your shield to hit your foe with an impromptu attack."
Attacking with a Shield (AON again) >> "A shield can be used as a martial weapon for attacks, using the statistics listed for a shield bash on Table 6–7: Melee Weapons (page 280). The shield bash is an option only for shields that weren’t designed to be used as weapons. A shield can’t have runes added to it. You can also buy and attach a shield boss or shield spikes to a shield to make it a more practical weapon. These can be found on Table 6–7. These work like other weapons and can even be etched with runes."
Clearly on completing the spell the caster 1) has a shield (made of force), 2) the shield is raised and, 3) it is a shield that is not designed to be used as a weapon. That seems to meet the RAW requirements for shield bash / attacking with a shield, although I may be missing something.
Narratively it feels acceptable, although I'm still mulling it over, at least for a character using a one-handed weapon. It enables a sort of less-effective sword-and-board gish build and does not seem unbalanced. I.e. instead of a +2 AC physical shield, the character would have a +1 AC shield cantrip. The cantrip is disadvantaged since it takes an action each round not only to gain the AC bonus but also to enable shield bash (no shield = no bash...
This simply doesn't work for obvious reasons. Right off the bat, it doesn't work because the cantrip is a spell, not a shield item, and the ability to Shield Bash or attack with a shield are written with the assumption you are using a shield item, not a cantrip. Common sense tells you this, both based on where the Shield Bash/Attacking with a Shield entries are located (in the Items section, where shield items are also located), as well as the intended writing in regards to what you are supposed to use.
There is also no credence that the cantrip states it functions like a shield item in all respects, as pointed out with its listed exceptions, which is that the cantrip states that it "counts as using the Raise a Shield action," not that it "counts as a shield for all purposes, including the Raise a Shield action." Ironically, this would mean that feats and abilities that work with the Raise a Shield action (like Reactive Shield, Reflexive Shield, etc.) would work with a Shield cantrip as well, but things that require actual shields (such as Shield Bash) would not.
Lastly, the ability does not scale in that respect, even if we argued that it could be used that way. No potency or striking runes means that this mechanic ceases being relevant after 4th level, thus the odds that the cantrip is intended to be used as a means of striking a foe make no sense. It could also mean that, since you don't need to have the Shield cantrip active to utilize its effects, you could always perpetually use a Shield Bash Strike at all times (except for maybe if you chose to Shield Block with it, and it's on cooldown for 10 minutes). All for simply possessing a cantrip? And it doesn't even require a free hand to do? Even past 4th level, where the runes outpace its offensive effectiveness (which can be negated in an Automatic Bonus Progression game, I might add), that's very powerful and obviously not intended or in line with what the expected mechanic is.
We have Spiritual Weapon, which states for example "The spiritual weapon uses and contributes to your multiple attack penalty."
I'd thought about that spell but it's still making a spell attack on it's own vs the PC making an attack roll with them 'wielding' the weapon.
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We have Spiritual Weapon, which states for example "The spiritual weapon uses and contributes to your multiple attack penalty."I'd thought about that spell but it's still making a spell attack on it's own vs the PC making an attack roll with them 'wielding' the weapon.
Produce flame then. It's still a spell attack.
Note that if Shield could be used to bash, it stands to reason that it should be a spell attack. But then it should be described within the spell, which it isn't.
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I don't think the attack trait argument is pertinent. I mean Spiritual Weapon doesn't have the attack trait and its clearly used for attacks.
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Yeah, what I am reading is the replies fall into one of two answers. It isn't allowed, or it would be pointless even if it was allowed.
Yep. Its certainly an odd use case. I really only see it being relevant if your normal shield was destroyed but you have a Shield cantrip still(?!?) and you really wanted to use some of the Shield based maneuvers your character had invested in. I mean why not just carry a spare shield, bucklers are small.
Note that if Shield could be used to bash, it stands to reason that it should be a spell attack. But then it should be described within the spell, which it isn't.
I don't agree that it stands to reason: it's a spell that produces a shield and not intended for attacks. Being able to hit someone with it and being able to hit with your mental stat are 2 different things. IMO, you'd be doing the EXACT same thing as if you had a normal shield: bashing it with your normal ability as if it was a martial weapon. To me that's like saying it "stands to reason" that a weapon made with Creation uses a spell roll instead of an attack roll.
Yeah, what I am reading is the replies fall into one of two answers. It isn't allowed, or it would be pointless even if it was allowed.Yep. Its certainly an odd use case. I really only see it being relevant if your normal shield was destroyed but you have a Shield cantrip still(?!?) and you really wanted to use some of the Shield based maneuvers your character had invested in. I mean why not just carry a spare shield, bucklers are small.
The only thing I could come up with would be using a 2 handed weapon and the cantrip: it'd be mighty niche as you'd be trading your ability to negate damage for your shield maneuvers.
]The only thing I could come up with would be using a 2 handed weapon and the cantrip: it'd be mighty niche as you'd be trading your ability to negate damage for your shield maneuvers.
Maybe if you had a Bastard Sword or a Dwarven war axe and sometimes used a shield and sometimes not... just trying to work out how this situation might reasonably occur
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Yeah, what I am reading is the replies fall into one of two answers. It isn't allowed, or it would be pointless even if it was allowed.Yep. Its certainly an odd use case. I really only see it being relevant if your normal shield was destroyed but you have a Shield cantrip still(?!?) and you really wanted to use some of the Shield based maneuvers your character had invested in. I mean why not just carry a spare shield, bucklers are small.
That's because having the attack trait on the spell would technically give you a map before you even got to Strike with it. It is a weird corner case.
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I must say that I have trouble seeing a spell that does not mention attacks, spell attacks or Strikes you would do with it, nor have the Attack trait, used to attack someone, just based on a tiny part of its description.
*shrug* it calls it a "magical shield" more than once: it's mentioned MORE than Raise a Shield so I don't see it as tiny as you seem to.
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The description of the cantrip tells you what you can do with the shield. And based on that description, you can only use the Shield Block reaction. It doesn’t say you can Shield Bash with it. To me, it’s really a simple matter that the description tells you specifically what action you can take with the shield, and no more.
Now, 1d4B damage isn’t exactly game-breaking, so I’m not sure it really makes much of a difference.
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Nothing about the spell says that it cannot be used for shield bashing.
This is not how this works.
The spell tells you what you can do with it. Shield bashing is not one of the things it tells you you can do with it, so you can't.
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If the shield spell is wielded then that means it needs a free hand to do so and it just became a dramatically worse spell. Also making a shield bash strike doesn't require you to have the shield raised.
Given Paizo's picture of a multiclass casteris a guy with a two handed handed weapon casting shield, I'm pretty sure they don't want the spell to have that limitation.