Delaying when Grappled


Rules Discussion


Just occurred in a gaming session:

1. PC A is Restrained by an NPC’s critical grapple. Delays.
2. PC B kills the NPC grappling A.
3. PC A undelays.

Is PC A now forced to play the turn still Restrained because they are not permitted to use a Delay to wait out a negative effect?


hyphz wrote:

Just occurred in a gaming session:

1. PC A is Restrained by an NPC’s critical grapple. Delays.
2. PC B kills the NPC grappling A.
3. PC A undelays.

Is PC A now forced to play the turn still Restrained because they are not permitted to use a Delay to wait out a negative effect?

There is nothing preventing you from delaying so naturally you can.


HumbleGamer wrote:

IIRC, it's explained in the "delay" Action

Everything meant to trigger or end at the end of your turn, triggers or ends when you delay.

Just negative effects trigger and positive effects end! Otherwise everyone would delay a second when they are frightened for example.


_benno wrote:
hyphz wrote:

Just occurred in a gaming session:

1. PC A is Restrained by an NPC’s critical grapple. Delays.
2. PC B kills the NPC grappling A.
3. PC A undelays.

Is PC A now forced to play the turn still Restrained because they are not permitted to use a Delay to wait out a negative effect?

There is nothing preventing you from delaying so naturally you can.

But that being said RAW dying does not end the grappled condition as far as I have read xD

If you fall prone you move so grabbed ends but what if the grabbing creature is disintegrated ...
Naturally I'm just joking and I don't think anyone sane would ever play it that way XD


Worst case you would have to spend one action on Escape.

What would be the Athletics DC of a dead body that has you grabbed?


I think the argument is that they are not dead at that time, because characters later in initiative order are not standing around doing nothing waiting for the earlier ones, it’s all the same 6 seconds.

Grand Lodge

In fringe cases like this, I tend to rule in the player's favor. Whatever benefits them is probably good. They are heroes after all so luck is a predominate trait. Not to mention that good tactics and teamwork should be rewarded. If you Delay so that another payer can do something cool, you should reap the benefit of said coolness. Plus, the game is already challenging enough, do we really need to make it harder for the players?


I tend to rule in the doer's favor, whether player or NPC.
In this instance, the last agent was the PC freeing his buddy, but I don't think it even has to go that deep into game principles, as the grapple relies on the grappler who's no longer grappling. Conditon didn't end because of the Delay or elapsed time, so there are no shenanigans IMO. The grappler has been moved (albeit to the afterlife) away from the grapple.

Plus as narrative it makes sense that "pinned guy" springs into action as soon as freed, though I could see (as noted above) doing the Escape action to remove the arm/tentacle/etc. against a body (no level, no stats, ultimately DC 5 (if stat counted as negative 5) or DC 10 (if counted as null). Maybe 10 simply because I could see an incompetent rookie struggling to free themselves!


TwilightKnight wrote:
In fringe cases like this, I tend to rule in the player's favor. Whatever benefits them is probably good. They are heroes after all so luck is a predominate trait. Not to mention that good tactics and teamwork should be rewarded. If you Delay so that another payer can do something cool, you should reap the benefit of said coolness. Plus, the game is already challenging enough, do we really need to make it harder for the players?

When I'm the player no, when I'm the GM yes ;)


If, in this scenario, B was grappled and A killed the creature instead of delaying, would you make B roll an escape check?

If not, then I don't see why you would in this scenario either.


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hyphz wrote:

Just occurred in a gaming session:

1. PC A is Restrained by an NPC’s critical grapple. Delays.
2. PC B kills the NPC grappling A.
3. PC A undelays.

Is PC A now forced to play the turn still Restrained because they are not permitted to use a Delay to wait out a negative effect?

I don't see a problem. The penalty with being restrained is the ongoing effect of being flatfooted and immobilized - which you are continuing to suffer. Perhaps there is no enemy availble to attack you in that time but you still suffer the effect. The secondary penalty of being restrained (having to escape) just can't occur till you take actions.

As for PC A havng to use an Escape action at the end - I would say no. Based on the rule for Grapple which ends if the grappler is moved, I'd have attack fall into this category because the grappler is dead. In effect the escape action was done by your ally PC B. It seems to me to be quite similar to the situation where PC B uses Shove to force the grappler away.

Rules are:
For Grapple Your target is grabbed until the end of your next turn unless you move or your target Escapes

For Delay When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action. Any beneficial effects that would end at any point during your turn also end. The GM might determine that other effects end when you Delay as well. Essentially, you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn.

And Restrained You're tied up and can barely move, or a creature has you pinned. You have the flat-footed and immobilized conditions, and you can't use any actions with the attack or manipulate traits except to attempt to Escape or Force Open your bonds. Restrained overrides grabbed.

Grand Lodge

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As Gortle says - the equivalent of the escape action was done by your ally who killed the grappler.

Delay might be used more often then you think to gain (or lose) a condition (effect?)

I delay to become quickened (wait for the wizard to cast haste)
I delay to become un-blinded (wait for someone with light to move first into darkness)
I delay to become concealed - Fog Cloud or somethin similar to be cast before I flee
I delay to become un-deafened - wait for character with silence to move out of my area
...
Restrained - I delay for the barbarian to smash the slaver chain before fleeing

The list will go on for a while.

There is even a condition that places you in auto-delay so that allies can remove it - dying - it moves your initiative in front of the creature who caused it.


It just seems a rather odd mismatch. I mean, consider the following effects:

a) PC 1 is in a zone that deals 2d6 fire damage on turn start.
b) PC 1 is in a zone that deals 2d6 fire damage to anyone attacking while in it.

If PC 2 is capable of putting out the flames on their turn, then if they go after PC 1 on initiative, then they can put out B but not A. That doesn't seem representative given that in world, PC 1 is standing in a fire in both situations.

BTW I have no issue with the idea that killing the grappler would end the grapple in normal circumstance. Rather, it's the interaction with the rule that says that you cannot Delay to wait out a negative situation.

So as written, if an enemy has an emanation with the text "any PC that starts its turn in the aura.." then a PC who starts their turn in the aura and delays is still subject to it even if the enemy moves away in their turn, because their turn start effects were processed when they delayed and they were in the aura at that time. Waiting out Silence _does_ work, because it says "while [the target] is in the area.." rather than "if they start their turn in the area.."


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Consider that being grabbed isn't the same kind of 'negative situation'. Most of the effects you are describing are auras and DoTs. These work passively on all creatures affected, so of course they trigger automatically at regular intervals--you can't prevent DoTs that trigger on your turn just by never having your turn. Time still passes in the game world even when you don't take your turn. On the other hand, being grappled is a much more context-specific situation. You are only grabbed while another creature has its limbs on you, and you automatically stop being such if it even fails to maintain for 1 round.

From a purely mechanics perspective, what kind of penalties does being grabbed inflict? It allows the grappling creature to lock down one foe and prevent them from moving, and gives them a failure chance on somatic spells. Put another way, it forces the grabbed creature to focus their attention on attacking the grappler rather than move into position, or else spend their time trying to escape. From the grappler's perspective, causing an opponent to forego attacking or harming anybody while remaining an immobile and Flat-Footed target is a strict upgrade. If nobody manages to kill the grappler in that turn, the grappler turned a 1-action "Immobilized, Flat-Footed" effect into "Slowed 3, Flat-Footed"

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The rule doesn't say you can't wait until someone helps you out of grab. It's a free action that has specific exceptions to the normal flow of play. Your turn begins. You take a free action to delay.

Delay wrote:
When you Delay, any persistent damage or other negative effects that normally occur at the start or end of your turn occur immediately when you use the Delay action. Any beneficial effects that would end at any point during your turn also end. The GM might determine that other effects end when you Delay as well. Essentially, you can’t Delay to avoid negative consequences that would happen on your turn or to extend beneficial effects that would end on your turn.

Grab doesn't impose any kind of persistent damage. If the creature had some ability that caused you to take damage at the start or end of your turn while grabbed, you'd take that damage immediately. But just being grabbed is neither a negative effect that would occur at the start or end of your turn, nor is it a beneficial effect that would end.

Most players I've seen just attack the grabbed creature. But delaying until someone kills it is a viable tactic.

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