I'm glad we agree, neighbor. :)
It's your world, boss. The rest of us just live in it. :)
Have a good one.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.Ah, "yours."
OK, if you say so.
To be clear, I want Paizo to be a place where transpeople don't have to deal with any bigotry, whether viewing it from posters they've yet to mute, or seeing arguments raging around that muted person about why transpeople deserve dignity or other tired debates. I want Paizo to be a zone of control for all communities capable of tolerating each other and treating their neighbor with dignity regardless of whether or not they agree. And I don't want mods to have to dread getting up in the morning to flush away vitriol while forcing on a smile.
Does this mean I think this rule should apply everywhere? No. At some point, people have to live with each other despite the ugliness. But for a moment of their day, give them a damn break.
That's what I'd like to see, anyway. I respect that people can have legitimate reasons to want something else from their time here.
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It was really heartening to see the mods taking such active steps to improve on the old moderation measures--not only deleting the bad posts, but identifying which posts to leave to help clarify the point of the moderation, as well as explicitly outlining the meaning of the decision, and saying up-front, "Hey, we suspended this guy. Yeah, he was out of line. No, we won't apologize for defending trans forum users."
It was a huge step forward, and a huge part of what we've been asking for. It made me really happy, and I hope it's a pattern from now on. It shows moderation has been listening.
Honestly, I wonder if now the key is to start encouraging management to dedicate more actual funding to community management. The CSRs are doing amazing work, and basically extracurricular work at that, but... they shouldn't have to. They shouldn't need to be amazing and working around the clock. They should have the kind of support and manpower that they can get away with just being average sometimes, you know?
Not that I think they ever would settle for just being average. This is Paizo, after all. Still, it's a job! A job shouldn't be like this year-round.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.Ah, "yours."
Henceforth in my own personal headcanon, whenever you say something like my street or my neighbor or my home state, I'm going to interpret it as a claim of literal ownership. ;)
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Friends, just let him go and ride off into my sunset.
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Telling people being attacked not to defend themselves is sending thoughts and prayers.
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It can be pretty cringe, not gonna lie.
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Telling people being attacked not to defend themselves is sending thoughts and prayers.
I'm genderfluid. In the South.
You insulting me is no more an attack than my reply of extending a single finger, uttering two words, and leaving you in the dust.
For the rare actual (physical) attack? Well, there is a solution for that, too, if it can't be avoided.
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KC, bring back the sun this very instant you hear? It's FREEZING here. :>
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Friends, just let him go and ride off into my sunset.
Eh, one more unpopular but undeniably true statement before I recall why I rarely peek outside the Starfinder forums:
Young Justice is the best show on TV/streaming today.
Night, all.
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KC, bring back the sun this very instant you hear? It's FREEZING here. :>
I would be showing my age if I added a "KC and the Sunshine Band" quip here.
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Ignoring the link between verbal abuse and physical abuse is sort of like saying the pouring rain has nothing to do with the flooding rivers. Sure, sometimes one doesn't lead to the other, but I'm still going to make sure I'm ready for the worst if I hear a real storm is on the way.
And in general, dismissing the impact of abuse and harassment is just... not the most empathetic way to talk to other queer people. Or anyone.
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Friends, just let him go and ride off into my sunset.Eh, one more unpopular but undeniably true statement before I recall why I rarely peek outside the Starfinder forums:
Young Justice is the best show on TV/streaming today.
Night, all.
Loved the first season, felt like the second had higher highs and lowers lows, and never went further than that. Are three and four worth a look?
I'm always looking for more Masks inspo.
Friends, just let him go and ride off into my sunset.Eh, one more unpopular but undeniably true statement before I recall why I rarely peek outside the Starfinder forums:
Young Justice is the best show on TV/streaming today.
Night, all.
Loved the first season, felt like the second had higher highs and lowers lows, and never went further than that. Are three and four worth a look?
I'm always looking for more Masks inspo.
I binged the first season and lost track during the second, through no fault of that show itself. I've also really loved what I've seen. I also noticed they brought in Cassandra Cain, who's straight up my #1 favorite superhero. I hope she plays a larger role in the show later on — I've only seen one scene with her so far.
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Young Justice is the best show on TV/streaming today.
How dare you, Arcane pretty much stole the spotlight from everything this year! <twirls not-really-existing moustache>
Telling people being attacked not to defend themselves is sending thoughts and prayers.I'm genderfluid. In the South.
You insulting me is no more an attack than my reply of extending a single finger, uttering two words, and leaving you in the dust.
For the rare actual (physical) attack? Well, there is a solution for that, too, if it can't be avoided.
Who said my post was attacking you?
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Henceforth in my own personal headcanon, whenever you say something like my street or my neighbor or my home state, I'm going to interpret it as a claim of literal ownership. ;)I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.Ah, "yours."
When I was a kid, I lived on a street with our family's last name on it, so I could get pretty close to making a claim like this at the time.
Alas, now I must live adjacent to proper, paved streets named after individuals I have no knowledge or care about, like some kind of plebeian . Ugh.
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I have discussed this same issue on another thread, so I will just say this here: I agree with Sanityfaerie that simply removing the offending posts is a weak method of moderation. It does little to discourage bad actors, so it invites more or less covert repeat offenses, until the moderators are forced to apply suspensions. It does even less to educate people who, without being bad actors, will do mistakes. And it fails to bring reassurance to the victims of offensive posts.
Instead, showing which posts were removed and the reason why is a clear warning to both bad actors and the rest of the audience, as well as closure to the victims.
Where I differ with Sanityfaerie is on the idea of leaving the offending text for all to see. I believe bad posts should stay, but the text should be removed and replaced with a banner like "violates guideline xxx". This is because leaving the text in the open gives permission to readers to judge for themselves if the moderator was right or not: In other words, it leaves the debate open. That's a recipe for further warfare. We should instead trust the moderators: Right or wrong, they have the sole authority to make these calls, and we shouldn't second-guess them.
Also: Jiggy's analogy, linked above, is excellent.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.
KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.
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Henceforth in my own personal headcanon, whenever you say something like my street or my neighbor or my home state, I'm going to interpret it as a claim of literal ownership. ;)I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.Ah, "yours."When I was a kid, I lived on a street with our family's last name on it, so I could get pretty close to making a claim like this at the time.
Alas, now I must live adjacent to proper, paved streets named after individuals I have no knowledge or care about, like some kind of plebeian . Ugh.
Me, I always wanted to live on the most memorably named street in my hometown (there's that my again!), Labor-in-Vain Road.
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Me, I always wanted to live on the most memorably named street in my hometown (there's that my again!), Labor-in-Vain Road.Henceforth in my own personal headcanon, whenever you say something like my street or my neighbor or my home state, I'm going to interpret it as a claim of literal ownership. ;)I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.Ah, "yours."When I was a kid, I lived on a street with our family's last name on it, so I could get pretty close to making a claim like this at the time.
Alas, now I must live adjacent to proper, paved streets named after individuals I have no knowledge or care about, like some kind of plebeian . Ugh.
Please tell me there are train tracks that cross that road.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.
I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
Rally the wagons! The Kobold Coup is coming!! The devious monarch will censor all our speech! (/sarcasm)
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>:)
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
All glory to our new Kobold Overlords I guess.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
I know that is not what you meant, but being careful with language is important as it can often feed the trolls.
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I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
Rysky is going to be so mad when she finds out you stole her forums. She owns paizo, you know. /s
These forums are your forums, these forums are my forums
From Customer Service, to General Discussion,
These forums were made for you and meeeeee.
(But not bigots!)
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I'll jump on this train.
All glory to our new Kobold Overlords!
<Sincerely. Based on the many amazing posts KC has gifted to us recently, we would be in very good hands.>
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I know that is not what you meant, but being careful with language is important as it can often feed the trolls.I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
I felt like I was being very careful with language. We can't just "mute/block" toxic people because that's, in effect, trans people conceding that these aren't our forums anymore, that these forums belong to the bigots. I consider that unacceptable. These are my forums, too.
I really side-eye anyone who chooses to take me literally there and act like I'm actually going mad with power, but I know you're acting in good faith, so that's the clarification I'll offer.
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All Hail the Tripods!
(Wait wrong overload)
All Hail the Kobolds!
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Please tell me there are train tracks that cross that road.
Me, I always wanted to live on the most memorably named street in my hometown (there's that my again!), Labor-in-Vain Road.
...sure!
I suppose whether an abusive poster develops a better attitude is secondary to me to the priority of ensuring they aren't posting abuse and harassment on my forums.KC, while I don't disagree with the message of the post, one thing to point out, these are not your forums.I don't know if I can think of a better example of the importance of reading people in good faith than assuming that the use of "my" to indicate the forums I inhabit was instead an attempt by me to seize control of the forums.
Wait, wait, hold off on the good faith for a second, I'm working on a way to parlay the phrase my perspective into becoming Monarch of All I Survey.
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Look, if elected Dictator of the Forums, I promise to do something about the Basselope Gap.
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Fake edit: I wrote the first part of this prior to seeing the recent moderation changes. I would ask that the bit up to the "/***********/" be read with that in mind.
I do recall engaging in some conversations with you during the initial days of the current forum controversies that began with you posting some fairly inflammatory things.
Would you want all of those comments to have stuck around? You launched the exchange, and are now saying that post removal allows people to sweep such actions and the offending poster to pose as behaving more rationally.
You benefited from that system and are now saying that sunlight is the best disinfectant against you own behavior.
I would. If there are those who would judge me for my own words, let them judge. Call me out where you think that I am wrong. I'll never claim that I am not capable of being wrong. let me see the argument that I have fallen short and if I agree with you, I'll admit it, and I'll do my best to improve. So yes. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for my own behavior, because it lets people actually tell me where I have failed so that I can get better. If my posts were still here, you could actually point them out to me rather than making vague references, and I might be able to learn something from it. If my early posts damage my reputation, then perhaps it deserved to be damaged, and hopefully I can improve and repair that reputation accordingly.
While the system may well have had this effect on me, I personally do not see it as a benefit. As far as sunlight's disinfectant qualities, where I am infected, I desire to be cleansed.
Rest is as important to dialogue as struggle. Paizo, in my view, is a tavern where adventurers can stop and rest between adventures. Without places like these, it can be very hard to find the strength to keep engaging with people of very adverse opinions.
And yes, I think zones of control are important for everyone, including people I disagree with strongly. But for people who otherwise have a hard time finding places where they aren't constantly beset by people trying to knock them down, I value places like Paizo — that watch their back while they catch their breath — very, very much.
I sympathize and agree with this, but... is it working? I mean, as far as I can tell, from having read the second-order effects, these spaces aren't feeling safe anyway. LBAA keeps coming in and posting stuff. Certain parts of the forum environment feel pretty toxic to me, and I don't think it's just because I'm not one of the people the space is being made safe for. If it really is working, and it really is providing people with this thing then yeah, that has real value... but is it?
/***********/
That all having been said... apparently there has been a marked improvement quite recently. Going in search of signs of it... yes. That is much better, and I suspect the long-term results will be quite a lot healthier. It's not exactly the path I would have chosen... but it's far better than what they were doing, and it's entirely possible that they're more correct than I about exactly what this forum needs. If that had been the previous standard of moderation, I would not have had reason to start this thread in the first place. As it is... I suppose I have some hope that my efforts in this thread have been helpful in some way in inspiring the new policy. If so, I suspect I am not alone in that.
On that note... I really like the way that Paizo embraces and responds to customer feedback just in general. It's nice to see it applied here, too.
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Friends, just let him go and ride off into my sunset.Eh, one more unpopular but undeniably true statement before I recall why I rarely peek outside the Starfinder forums:
Young Justice is the best show on TV/streaming today.
Night, all.
Loved the first season, felt like the second had higher highs and lowers lows, and never went further than that. Are three and four worth a look?
I'm always looking for more Masks inspo.
3 was awesome.
4 has been... slow, and limited largely to 5 characters (2 of whom aren't in the title sequence, one of whom *is* Cassandra Cain). Three of the title characters haven't even shown up yet unless I blinked and missed them. I have no idea where it's going, but interested to see how it gets there.
I think we moved on from the TV show talk.
I'd be okay with kobold overlords.
At least with them you know where you stand (or not). :>
Having a post telling people that they need to show that they are sorry for harming the community rather than simply saying they are sorry being taken down shows to me that the Moderators, again, are part of why there is an issue on the boards.
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Having a post telling people that they need to show that they are sorry for harming the community rather than simply saying they are sorry being taken down shows to me that the Moderators, again, are part of why there is an issue on the boards.
What are you on about?
Yeah sucks that you may have a post removed isn't an immediate indicator that the mods are causing the problem. Inaction has been allowing hateful peoples influence the conversation, no need to be offended that you got caught in the crossfire while the mods (who are still understaffed and underfunded) are actually doing something.
Ninja edit: if you have a problem with something that was removed you may want to reach out to the staff via the email that has been indicated in other threads. Frankly, it probably isn't worth the effort, there are going to be roadbumps
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Having a post telling people that they need to show that they are sorry for harming the community rather than simply saying they are sorry being taken down shows to me that the Moderators, again, are part of why there is an issue on the boards.
It was explained that it was removed because it quoted a deleted post from a now suspended poster. This isn't a new policy. If a post gets deleted so do the posts that quote it.
I've been trying to be careful about my posting and not quoting other posts, instead putting my own words and thoughts together.
Unfortunately, some of them did cross out of the topic material so I can understand why they were removed.
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Burn the fields and salt the earth I say. People with online anonymity have all the power and privilege of bad faith with little to none of the consequences. Keeping their posts up to educate or to shine a light on their behavior in hopes of change is an idealization that doesn't pass the sniff test of the way people conduct themselves online. You'd be trying to fight a war on fair terms against a foe that doesn't fight fair, nor will they ever. Delete the content, and moreover if a poster reaches an arbitrary number of deletions, delete their account. Zero tolerance and a united front of refusal to engage is the only means of combating bigotry and bad faith dog whistling.
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I'm saying it's off-topic.
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While there was a temptation to type out on a new alias "San Dimas Football RULES!", I've been able to resist the urge for now and focus on the matter at hand.
There is a problem with Post Removal, in that it effectively rewrites the 'story' of a given thread.
However, the alternative is to shut down a thread completely, and there are bad actors out there that would take advantage of this wholeheartedly thinking it was the perfect emulation of their faith/belief's will.
There are some who feel that talking about people being people is 'political'.
It shouldn't be.
Growing up in some environments, though, it's very possible to get raised with a perverse form of American Exceptionalism that banks on politicizing the very right of individuals to exist.
Education is how we learn, but even school systems indicate what is and is not what they want to be indoctrinating their students with.
I'd prefer to purge the toxins rather than letting them take root and rot from the inside. Doing it in a way that would preserve the 'story' without endangering the host (in this case, the forums) would be ideal.
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As a long-time moderator for a variety of forums, I will chime in with this:
Whether you support free-range posting (no moderation, just let the community "police itself"), deleting posts that are problematic, or just locking down discussions, you're going to have people who disagree with how you've worked to keep your community safe.
It has been my experience that removing toxic behavior (and the ability of toxic posters to contribute toxicity to the community) is the most effective means of dealing with toxic behavior. There is some value in leaving artifacts of how toxic behaviors are dealt with to demonstrate to the community that healthy moderation does occur, but in my experience, having a few artifacts is far healthier and more productive than leaving every possible artifact of how the community is moderated. Having too many toxic posts preserved for posterity has a tendency to create an environment that leads to increased toxicity (often as a game for the trolls to see just how far they can push boundaries before action is taken), which has the unfortunate side effect of increasing trauma-causing behaviors (such as quoting from those preserved posts, or referring to them).
Essentially, it's a delicate balance that is not going to satisfy everyone. This is not a sign of poor forum moderation, merely a natural consequence of forum moderation in general. Toxic posters don't want to be moderated. Gaslighters will also argue against what they consider to be "reactionary moderation". People who are genuinely trying to interact in healthy ways will still try to interact in healthy ways regardless of how the forums are moderated (unless moderation is truly oppressive and harmful, at which point, healthy discussion will cease and posters will leave).
I will freely admit that I haven't spent much time on these forums in a long while. That doesn't mean that I've been disconnected from Paizo & Pathfinder - just not here on these forums. But, recent developments did encourage me to come back to not only weigh in on such matters, but reconnect with some of the awesome members of this community.
Suffice it to say... Trolls will regenerate, unless you use magic or burn them with fire. Leaving pieces of trolls lying around can give rise to fully reformed trolls. Let's work together to prevent trolls from taking over our spaces.
Best wishes!