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PC: "I closed my eyes first, so I can't be intimidated."Sure, but the notion that you can close your eyes at the exact second where it would be beneficial and open them at the precise moment when that would help you (i.e. when the orc attacks you) is probably not going to fly with most GMs.
My point exactly.
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DM: "The orc pulls out his axe and shouts menacingly at you 'Ima gut you like a FISH! RAWERARWR!' " /rolls intimidateSorry, bud. I'm wearing my shades right now which simply make me too cool for demoralize. On my turn I fingergun the orc with Magic Missile and pull out my pomade to fix the 'do.
Hah ;) Pretty much ;P
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That rule should be re-written as "can clearly perceive you". It shouldn't be impossible to intimidate someone who is blind, or deaf. They just need to be aware that you're there, and aware that they're trying to intimidate you.
DM: "The orc pulls out his axe and shouts menacingly at you 'Ima gut you like a FISH! RAWERARWR!' " /rolls intimidate
PC: "I closed my eyes first, so I can't be intimidated."
DM: *checks Intimidate rules*
DM:
DM: *flips table*
{. . .}
This should only work if the Orc is as dumb as a Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal.
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That rule should be re-written as "can clearly perceive you". It shouldn't be impossible to intimidate someone who is blind, or deaf. They just need to be aware that you're there, and aware that they're trying to intimidate you.
DM: "The orc pulls out his axe and shouts menacingly at you 'Ima gut you like a FISH! RAWERARWR!' " /rolls intimidate
PC: "I closed my eyes first, so I can't be intimidated."
DM: *checks Intimidate rules*
DM:
DM: *flips table*
{. . .}This should only work if the Orc is as dumb as a Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal.
Who needs shades? I have my towel!
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^The problem with Boon Companion is that it is only good for 4 levels in non-Companion classes, after which your Animal Companion will fall behind. But if you're willing to dip 1 more level, 4th level Cavalier has Expert Trainer (sadly, the Strategist archetype trades out Expert Trainer, so you can't use it for this), which qualifies you for Horse Master, which makes your Animal Companion progression depend upon your character level, no matter what your class is thereafter. If you take it at 5th level, then you don't have any levels at which progression is lost even temporarily.
An alternative is the feat Animal Ally at level 4
Packflanking build
Half orc
Wavveblade, Stegosaurus Compagnion (1 level dip open without animal compagnion getting weaker due to Animal Ally, Boon Compagnion & Beast Rider.)
Get in snapping flank (BAB 9) somewhere.
2 levels Snakebite Strike Brawler
4+ levels Unchained Rogue
3 levels Hunter
Progression:
1 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Improved Unarmed Strike, Nature soul) 1d6 sneak attack
2 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to hit) 2d6 sneak attack
3 lev: Unchained Rogue (Evasion, combat expertise, Rogue Talent- combat feat: Combat Reflexes)
4 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Brawlers Flurry-Two Weapon Fighting, Animal Ally)
5 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to dm. Beast Rider) 3d6 sneak attack
6 lev: Unchained Rogue (uncanny dodge, Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent-Surprise attack)
7 lev: Hunter (Animal focus, Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
8 lev: Hunter (Outflank)
9 lev: Hunter (Hunter Tactics, Paired Opportunitist, Pack flanking)
10 lev: Unchained Rogue (Rogue’s edge-Ride) 4d6 sneak attack
11 lev: Unchained Rogue (Rogue Talent-Befuddling Strike, Boon Compagnion (BAB +8))
12 lev: Unchained Rogue 5d6 sneak attack
13 lev: Unchained Rogue (Improved uncanny dodge, Critical Fokus, Rogue Talent)
14 lev: Unchained Rogue 6d6 sneak attack
15 lev: Unchained Rogue ((BAB +11) Advanced rogue talents-feat: Staggering Critical , Sneaking Precision)
16 lev: Unchained Rogue 7d6 sneak attack
Boon Compagnion: +4 level animal compagnion
Beast Rider: +2 level animal compagnion
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{. . .}
An alternative is the feat Animal Ally at level 4{. . .}
Progression:
1 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Improved Unarmed Strike, Nature soul) 1d6 sneak attack
2 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to hit) 2d6 sneak attack
3 lev: Unchained Rogue (Evasion, combat expertise, Rogue Talent- combat feat: Combat Reflexes)
4 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Brawlers Flurry-Two Weapon Fighting, Animal Ally)
5 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to dm. Beast Rider) 3d6 sneak attack
6 lev: Unchained Rogue (uncanny dodge, Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent-Surprise attack)
7 lev: Hunter (Animal focus, Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
8 lev: Hunter (Outflank)
9 lev: Hunter (Hunter Tactics, Paired Opportunitist, Pack flanking)
10 lev: Unchained Rogue (Rogue’s edge-Ride) 4d6 sneak attack
11 lev: Unchained Rogue (Rogue Talent-Befuddling Strike, Boon Compagnion (BAB +8))
{. . .}
Actually, in this case, if you're willing to wait, you wouldn't need Boon Companion, because Animal Ally says "If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources." Since Animal Ally starts you off with effective Druid level being your character level - 3, this means that the 3 Hunter levels will catch you back up to character level. Boon Companion would be of temporary use before that, and then you could retrain it for something else; even then, Beast Rider covers 2/3 of the delay in your Animal Companion progression, so you really only need 1 level of Hunter to catch up, and might as well eat 1 level of progression temporarily to leave out Boon Companion and adjust the rest of the build the way you like, OR take Accomplished Sneak Attacker and make up for Sneak Attack progression lost in the 3 levels of Hunter (since the 2nd and 3rd levels of Hunter have stuff you actually want).
I assume you meant to retrain Combat Expertise to get Animal Ally at level 4?
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{. . .}
An alternative is the feat Animal Ally at level 4{. . .}
Progression:
1 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Improved Unarmed Strike, Nature soul) 1d6 sneak attack
2 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to hit) 2d6 sneak attack
3 lev: Unchained Rogue (Evasion, combat expertise, Rogue Talent- combat feat: Combat Reflexes)
4 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Brawlers Flurry-Two Weapon Fighting, Animal Ally)
5 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to dm. Beast Rider) 3d6 sneak attack
6 lev: Unchained Rogue (uncanny dodge, Debilitating Injury, Rogue Talent-Surprise attack)
7 lev: Hunter (Animal focus, Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
8 lev: Hunter (Outflank)
9 lev: Hunter (Hunter Tactics, Paired Opportunitist, Pack flanking)
10 lev: Unchained Rogue (Rogue’s edge-Ride) 4d6 sneak attack
11 lev: Unchained Rogue (Rogue Talent-Befuddling Strike, Boon Compagnion (BAB +8))
{. . .}Actually, in this case, if you're willing to wait, you wouldn't need Boon Companion, because Animal Ally says "If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources." Since Animal Ally starts you off with effective Druid level being your character level - 3, this means that the 3 Hunter levels will catch you back up to character level. Boon Companion would be of temporary use before that, and then you could retrain it for something else; even then, Beast Rider covers 2/3 of the delay in your Animal Companion progression, so you really only need 1 level of Hunter to catch up, and might as well eat 1 level of progression temporarily to leave out Boon Companion and adjust the rest of the build the way you like, OR take Accomplished Sneak Attacker and make up for Sneak Attack progression lost in the 3 levels of Hunter (since the 2nd and 3rd levels of Hunter have stuff you actually want).
I assume you...
Ahh I didn't realize that! If you skip beastrider and boon companion you could make the build come online earlier.
It could be like this:
1 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Improved Unarmed Strike, Nature soul) 1d6 sneak attack
2 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to hit) 2d6 sneak attack
3 lev: Unchained Rogue (Evasion, Combat reflexes, Rogue Talent- combat feat: combat expertise)
4 lev: Unchained Rogue (Weapon finesse dex to dm., retrain combat reflexes to Animal Ally) 3d6 sneak attack
5 lev: Hunter (Animal focus, Combat Reflexes)
6 lev: Hunter (Outflank)
7 lev: Hunter (Hunter Tactics, Paired Opportunitist, Pack flanking)
8 lev: Snakebite Strike Brawler (Brawlers Flurry-Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
9 lev: Unchained Rogue (uncanny dodge, Debilitating Injury, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Rogue Talent-Surprise attack) 4d6 sneak attack
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Almost tempted to add another level of Hunter to get Improved Empathic Link (for scouting) and 2nd level spells (for utility), for the price of delaying your Sneak Attack by 1 more level (1/2 d6).
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Almost tempted to add another level of Hunter to get Improved Empathic Link (for scouting) and 2nd level spells (for utility), for the price of delaying your Sneak Attack by 1 more level (1/2 d6).
Yes it is always a trade off.
Reach could be a problem if your mount is large. Some GM’s would rule that you are mounted too long from the head/tail/claws and cannot reach far enough to gain all those AOO. Longarm spell would help with that.
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Derklord said, in another thread that, in general, builds without a move-and-full-attack option drop off hard after level 6. I don't know if that pertains to the Scout rogue specifically, but I'm guessing yes.
More like BAB +6 rather than level, but yeah. We also had this conversation earlier, no?
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OUTLINE
Race: Half-Orc (Sacred Tattoos)
Class: Rogue
Archetype: Sylvan TricksterStats – 25 Points
Str: 13
Dex: 16+2=18
Cons: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 10TRAITS
____________ (Campaign)
Fate's Favored (Faith)FEATS
1 – Rogue – Level – Iron Will
3 – Rogue – Level – Step Up
5 – Rogue – Level – Press to the Wall
7 – Rogue – Level – Power Attack
9 - Rogue - Level - Rhino ChargeROGUE TALENTS/HEXES
2 – Rogue – Level – Nails (Hex)
4 – Rogue – Level – Flight (Hex)
6 – Rogue – Level – Gift of Consumption (Hex)
6 - Rogue - Favored Class Bonus - Greater Gift of Consumption (Hex)
8 – Rogue – Level – Combat Trick: Improved Bull Rush (Talent)
10 - Rogue - Level - Animal Skin (Lynx) (Hex)What do you think? How can I improve this build
The idea is a Natural Attack build that can give themselves Flanking. Then at level 11, with a Lynx in Beast Shape, and always Pouncing. That should be 5 Primary Attacks all with Sneak Attack and all adding Dex to Damage. Theoretically I could take Bludgeoner to then go into the Sap Master line for even more damage
Another combo to lock in sneak attack as Sylvan Trickster is the Hex: Murksight + a wand of obscuring mist. Then use either a reach weapon, Lunge feat or enlarge/long arm spell.
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Derklord said, in another thread that, in general, builds without a move-and-full-attack option drop off hard after level 6
Around 6th level, it depends on the builds in question (see my last post in the other thread for a bit more on that). And yes, it does apply to Rogues, Scout or otherwise. There's a reason three of the four "standout options" I listed in my first post have pounce at 10th level or earlier, and the fourth works at range.
More like BAB +6 rather than level, but yeah.
Nah, it's not tied to BAB, but to when builds get either pounce (or other move-and-full-attack options), or something that pushes ranged martials over the threshold (like Manyshot, Haste, Gunslinger's dex-to-damage).
Another combo to lock in sneak attack as Sylvan Trickster is the Hex: Murksight + a wand of obscuring mist. Then use either a reach weapon, Lunge feat or enlarge/long arm spell.
It takes a standard action to cast from the wand, what stops enemies from moving out of the mist before the Rogue gets a chance to attack?
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^Use a Tanglefoot or Tangleburn Bag first so that they can't move fast enough to get out of it. Available even from low levels, although probably not worth the expense until you're at least 3rd level (and you're not going to be able to afford the Wand of Obscuring Mist until around then anyway).
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My preferred method of getting a lot of sneak attack is Amulet of the Blooded (Fey) Ignore the hideous laughter part, it's 9 rounds of greater invisibility per day for every 10,000 gold you spend. Yes you loose the first round of the fight activating it, but that's a problem with many of these setups.
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^Actually the Laughing Touch part isn't bad -- No Save, and if you don't think your second (eventually third) iterative attack can hit as a normal attack but could hit as a Touch Attack, you could use this to keep them from retaliating (or using anything more than a 5' step or Move Action to escape) for a round if your first attack isn't enough to take them out.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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^Actually the Laughing Touch part isn't bad -- No Save, and if you don't think your second (eventually third) iterative attack
Wait, does that work? I figured laughing touch would be a standard action to use, since the item doesn't specify otherwise.
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Derklord limited movement like corridors and small rooms.
So with "lock in sneak attack" you meant "occasionally in rare circumstance enable sneak attack"?
Obscuring mist could also be casted by an ally. But partymembers will not have murksight which is problematic.
An ally could just cast Greater Invisibility on you. Or maybe even Monstrous Physique II via Brown-Fur Transmuter so you can turn into a Deathsnatcher, at which point you don't even need Sneak Attack anymore! Of course, at that point you might just as well play an NPC class, for all that your class features matter...
Relying on others to function is not teamwork.
^Actually the Laughing Touch part isn't bad -- No Save, and if you don't think your second (eventually third) iterative attack can hit as a normal attack but could hit as a Touch Attack, you could use this to keep them from retaliating (or using anything more than a 5' step or Move Action to escape) for a round if your first attack isn't enough to take them out.
Using a magic item is a standard action unless otherwise specified, and this one doesn't specify otherwise. More general, virtually anything that says "make a [melee/ranged] touch attack" or "as a [melee/ranged] touch attack" require a specific standard action.
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Why is a character so less than without a move-and-full-attack option after this point.
Because there is a significant gap in damage output. Melees with a move-and-full-attack option, as well as ranged martials, will do twice as much damage on the first round (of actual fighting), maybe even more, and this will only increase with time. And usually, those builds are not (notably) behind on damage on subsequent turns, so the non-pounce-melees never catch up. And while it may not be a big deal against enemies that mindlessly run into melee range, losing pretty much a whole turn against ranged combatants (includign spellcasters) or enemies with pounce is a pretty big deal in a game where most fights last only a few rounds.
Can you play the game with only non-pouncing melees? Of course! APs are designed to require little system mastery, and homebrew game difficulty is completely up to the GM. But some games deliberately have a certain difficulty, challenging the players to build mechanically powerful characters.
Can you have fun with a non-pouncing melee? Of course! But if you do have a pouncing melee and/or a ranged cambatant in your party, your character doing notably less damage every fight can be really un-fun if your character is supposed to be good at that.
When people ask for help improving their build, I presume that the game they're playing in isn't super-easy play-whatever-you-want, or they wouldn't be asking. Both this thread and the thread I originally posted the statement in are about pretty powerful melee builds (evident from that the OP abandoned his build idea when he learned he can't get five attack at 10th level, as well as the other thread's title).
Please note that my original statement was strictly relative - it's exclusively about dealing damage*, and only in comparison to other builds. "At around 6th level, builds without a move-and-full-attack option (or extreme reach) fall off extremely hard and from then on [can't] compete with builds that have such ability when it comes to damage done."
*) Which in the same post I called out as usually not being enough for a character to be considered being powerful.
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Derklord limited movement like corridors and small rooms.So with "lock in sneak attack" you meant "occasionally in rare circumstance enable sneak attack"?
Obscuring mist could also be casted by an ally. But partymembers will not have murksight which is problematic.An ally could just cast Greater Invisibility on you. Or maybe even Monstrous Physique II via Brown-Fur Transmuter so you can turn into a Deathsnatcher, at which point you don't even need Sneak Attack anymore! Of course, at that point you might just as well play an NPC class, for all that your class features matter...
Relying on others to function is not teamwork.
Even so, it's easier to get one spell cast for you than two, especially if the same other party member would end up needing to cast both of them (which may make the logistics unworkable even if they really tried to make it work).
^Actually the Laughing Touch part isn't bad -- No Save, and if you don't think your second (eventually third) iterative attack can hit as a normal attack but could hit as a Touch Attack, you could use this to keep them from retaliating (or using anything more than a 5' step or Move Action to escape) for a round if your first attack isn't enough to take them out.Using a magic item is a standard action unless otherwise specified, and this one doesn't specify otherwise. More general, virtually anything that says "make a [melee/ranged] touch attack" or "as a [melee/ranged] touch attack" require a specific standard action.
Well, poo. I guess this limits it to instances where you got a Sneak Attack on them by an AoO but then something changes by your turn so that doing Sneak Attack on your turn is no longer tenable (or even possible at all, like they are no longer Flanked or you got Glitterdusted out of your Greater Invisibility) and you need to reposition more than you can do with just a 5' step (like if you seriously need to get out of there).
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Even so, it's easier to get one spell cast for you than two, especially if the same other party member would end up needing to cast both of them (which may make the logistics unworkable even if they really tried to make it work).
Er, what? Who's talking about two spells? Did you miss the "or" in my sentence about MP2?
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^I didn't miss the "or", but the point stands that if you can cover one of the spells yourself, it gets a lot easier to get the rest of what you need from somebody else in the party. In your post it looked like you were outsourcing both Obscuring Mist/Greater Invisibility and the normally self-only Transmutation spell (and Brown Fur Transmuters aren't exactly very common -- even though they sound like they should be pretty good, I have yet to run across one in a PbP, although admittedly I am well over a Year of Pestilence worth of having fallen behind on those).
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My point was that when your build only works because someone else casts a spell for you, you don't need the Murksight stuff that requires investment and has questionable reliablity. But also that what you bring to the table significantly decreases when you need outside help to function. If you only get SA because of, say, Greater Invisibility cast by your party's Wizard, all the SA damage (as well as the damage of any attack that only hits because you can target flat-footed AC -2) should really be attributed to the Wizard (or at least split half-half).
That Brown Fur Transmuters are rare might have something to do with people not wanting to play valet. It's also easy to break the game with it - a mere Warrior slightly build towards it outdamages a rather optimized pouncing Barbarian when buffed with MP2, with a synergistic PC class build, most combat become boring.