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I was thinking LE human ex-paladin with a variant broken soul template: namely, instead of the wail and gaze he would have telekinesis as a spell-like ability and force choke, which would probably work like constrict but could function at a distance, and he wouldn't be considered grappled.
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3pp Dual Discipline Telepath Kineticist Psion
Weapon:
Brilliant Energy Psicrystal Weapon (Longsword)
Feats:
Psicrystal Affinity
Superior Psicrystal ---> Psicrystal Weapon (Psionics Augmented: Psicrystals Expanded book)
Combat Reflexes
Martial Focus
Cut from the Air
Frequently used Powers:
Crisis of Breath
Telekinetic Force
Solicit Psicrystal + Telekinetic Maneuver
Deliver Touch Powers thru Weapon --> Hammer
Precognition, Defensive
Precognition, Offensive
Prescience, Offensive
Compelling Voice (Jedi Mind Trick)
Read Thoughts
Sense Minds
Control Body
Empathic Connection
Energy Cone (if you want Force Lightning)
Energy Current (also for Lightning)
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Since the darkside of the force is all about anger and fear you could write him up as a Steelblood Bloodrager. Spells would be used for force abilities.
He would not be an Ex-paladin, because he would have used the retraining rules
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He is also not lawful evil.
I mean ... isn't he?
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He is also not lawful evil.I mean ... isn't he?
*Is drawn in like a gravity well to the barest mention of an alignment thread*
I can see arguments for both Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil, but I can certainly agree he's not really Lawful Evil. Palpatine would be closer to Lawful Evil. Vader isn't a statesman or politician. Everything he accomplishes is through browbeating everyone in the room with him by virtue of being the single most dangerous being there. He makes little to no appeals of authority, takes actions that are irrational and frequently antithetical to his actual goals. His primary desire for even becoming Evil is selfish and frankly petty.
As for on topic, I'd build him as a [3pp]Spheres of Power Mageknight. Focusing primarily on Telekinesis, Mind, and Divination with a smattering in Destruction for lightning blasts.
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Does broken soul make sense (due to him being horribly mutliated and burned?) If not, what template might work better? I would guess he has one of some kind both due to his injuries and how he's mostly made of robot parts.
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Lawful means following the laws...
It Reeeaaally doesn't.
Since people wanted to keep this up:
They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.
For example: WHAT IS THY BIDDING MY MASTER?
Personally, I see him as Neutral Evil, but with a Lawful bent.
It's really quite well done since a young Annikan would have been Chaotic good. His Chaotic bent is what caused his fall, but by the time of the original trilogy he's pretty far from that person.
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Since the darkside of the force is all about anger and fear you could write him up as a Steelblood Bloodrager. Spells would be used for force abilities.
He would not be an Ex-paladin, because he would have used the retraining rules
I like this option. Maybe an ID RAGER as an Anger, Fear or Hatred avatar.
I also like the idea that a character can "Fall" withiut being a Paladin, something to keep in mind.
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Depends what you think of when you hear Lord Varder's name mentioned...
If you immediately think Vader surrounded by tanks and infantry saying, "I am surrounded by fear and dead men" then activating everyone's thermal detonators on their belts... or when he uses the force the hold someone against the ceiling and then cuts them up with his lightsaber in Rogue One... or him throwing him lightersaber like a boss... or him using the force to turn a stormtrooper's head around backwards because they seen him without his helmet... or him using the force to pull stormtroopers in front of him to take blaster bolts...
Lord Vader is probably gestalt, Kineticist and probably some form of AntiPaladin... because Dark Side, b!tches. Lol. We want Vader to be full BAB, too. Go with Aether and Air on the Kineticist side, maybe Aether and Void... and typical Power Attack/Hurtful/Cornugon Smash for melee side. Ryze Kuja's Psion sounds legit, but I know nothing about that chassis.
If you think about the pasty dying old man, I got nothing for that.
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Void telekinetic knight
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Lawful means following the laws...It Reeeaaally doesn't.
They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.For example: WHAT IS THY BIDDING MY MASTER?Lawful:
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.Other than judging his underlings for failing Vader does not fall into lawful...
Vader respects the Emperor and expects his underlings to respect him
He honours tradition by continuing his apprenticeship.
He certainly judges those who fall short of their duties.
Now, as to the truth, VADER TOLD THE TRUTH, it was OBI WAN WHO LIED.
Oh, and in that scene with Vader and Luke, what's his goal? Not wanton destruction, he wants Luke to join him. He make a deal - a Lawful act. What does he want to do with Luke? "... end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.".
He's not doing any of this out of altruism mind you, it's good to have order when you're in charge. Complete obedience is great to have when you're the one giving orders.
The one non-lawful act he commits is his redemption.
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Vader doesn't honor tradition. His entire onus for joining the Dark Side is because he despised the Jedi traditions.
His redemption isn't a non-lawful act, it's an act on the Good/Evil scale.
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Vader doesn't honor tradition. His entire onus for joining the Dark Side is because he despised the Jedi traditions.
His redemption isn't a non-lawful act, it's an act on the Good/Evil scale.
Annikan didn't honour traditions. Vader does.
Annikan's Law/Chaos alignment has as as much to do with Vader as his Good/Evil alignment does - ie nothing to do with it.
Annikan was Chaotic Good . His Chaotic nature is what put him at odds with the Jedi order, and lead him down a dark path to becoming Evil . By the time we meet Darth Vader in the original Star Wars movie he's no longer Annikan Skywalker , he has become Darth Vader.
As to his redemption, you're right. It's a good act, it doesn't really affect the Order/Chaos scale. Which means even THAT action doesn't make him more Chaotic ...
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Ok we've now got more posts arguing Vader's alignment than posts on topic. We've officially derailed this thread.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, if someone wants to start a new thread we can take this outside.
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Ok we've now got more posts arguing Vader's alignment than posts on topic. We've officially derailed this thread.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, if someone wants to start a new thread we can take this outside.
Agreed. His exact alignment isn't very important as even if he's an antipaladin, there are variant antipaladins that can be LE and NE instead of the normal CE, and I don't think any of the other classes suggested have alignment restrictions.
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I disagree, since we're discussing one of the statistics that will be listed on the sheet a discussion of "What alignment is Darth Vader?" is at least somewhat on topic. What effects should harm him? Abilities that bring order or chaos?
Also because alignment discussions grant me sustenance like a dehydrated man in a desert.
Vader respects the Emperor and expects his underlings to respect him (respect authority)He honors tradition by continuing his apprenticeship.
He certainly judges those who fall short of their duties.
Now, as to the truth, VADER TOLD THE TRUTH, it was OBI WAN WHO LIED.
Oh, and in that scene with Vader and Luke, what's his goal? Not wanton destruction, he wants Luke to join him. He make a deal - a Lawful act. What does he want to do with Luke? "... end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.".
He's not doing any of this out of altruism mind you, it's good to have order when you're in charge. Complete obedience is great to have when you're the one giving orders.
Demanding obedience is not necessarily Lawful. Any bandit leader or Barbarian chieftain would do the same. He respects the Emperor as being the sole means of continuing his own ascension of power. Remember, his entire onus for joining the Dark Side was because he couldn't break Jedi laws and be "officially" in a relationship with Padme. He continued his allegiance to the Emperor because he believes that someday he'll be able to bring her back. The cruelties he inflicts on others is in service to that goal.
Lawful doesn't necessarily mean you won't lie, but that you honor agreements and see them through. "I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it further." is a clear example of Vader breaking an agreement.
Personal familial bonds have no real bearing on alignment. Ultimately, Vader just doesn't want to fight his son.
Annikan's Law/Chaos alignment has as as much to do with Vader as his Good/Evil alignment does - ie nothing to do with it.
I don't believe one becomes an entirely different person whatever actions one takes. Vader is still immensely Chaotic. The "redemption" if anything, shows that ultimately they are still the same person. "Vader" does not die and "Anakin is reborn", but Anakin simply stops choosing to go by that name.
Lastly, Obi Wan's statement of "You were supposed to bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness." Jedi aren't paladins. They're supposed to be impartial judicators. Neither supremely good or evil.
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He is also not lawful evil.I mean ... isn't he?
Just gonna put it out there, I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me. My original post was intended to show that a statement like "He is also not lawful evil." is too definitive for something as subjective as alignment, not to difinitively say that he is Lawful Evil.
The argument that "Lawful means following the laws" also seemed to be missing the nuances of alignments.
I do think the "I am altering the deal, pray I do not alter it further" scene is a good argument against Lawful alignment though.
And the redemption scene doesn't really say anything either way. Vader clearly struggles with his beliefs before acting; his final act could be against alignment , or it could be hesitation out of fear, or he could simply be deciding which of these 2 people he loves the most, since they apparently can't coexist.
TLDR: Vader's alignment is whatever you want it to be.
Anyway, regardless of how important you think alignment is to a character, we've discussed it enough. It's clearly an open ended debate, and there are enough options that any class you choose should be able to work with the character. Pick an alignment for your Vader and go with that.
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His exact alignment isn't very important...
OP even said it.
Holy crap, who gives a $#!+ what imaginary alignment Lord Vader is? Why is this what we chose to argue about? Nobody cares. Literally, nobody.
The hills people choose to die on will forever amuse me.
Lord Vader's class would probably be something with access to some form of telekinesis... it [telekinesis] is most accurate representation of "the Force" in PF1. Lord Vader wasn't much into the Enchantment/Charm parts of Jedi mind tricks BS... he would rather just put the squeeze on your windpipe to get you to comply.
I feel he would be best presented with full BAB, because he is boss like that. Max ranks in Profession Pilot (sailor?), because he THEE ace. I would probably make him an Android, because reasons.
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His exact alignment isn't very important...Holy crap, who gives a $#!+ what imaginary alignment Lord Vader is? Why is this what we chose to argue about? Nobody cares. Literally, nobody.
Just an amusing tidbit, before ANY other detail is given for OP's own suggestion, before even race? "LE human ex-paladin with a variant broken soul template". So atleast 4 people care :D
Android is a great suggestion. +1
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Actually the BATTLE HOST Occultist works pretty well. The Telekinetic Mastery focus power from the TRANSMUTATION IMPLEMENT pretty much covers those force powers.
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Okay so there's like two big options I think of with Spheres based on how well you want to replicate Lightsabers or just Vader's general combat expertise. One is to go Doomblade Mageknight. This lets us "create" a flaming blade initially and upgrade it to one that Disintegrates later allowing Vader to carve through doors with ease.
The other big option is to go Martial Mageknight which lets Vader properly utilize his parrying(Fencing Sphere), intimidation(Gladiator Sphere), or just how absurdly hard he is to kill(Berserker Sphere).
The Martial Mageknight gets less magic talents...but it's kinda worth it. These archetypes stack so you could do both.
The Telekinesis Sphere took a lot of inspiration from Star Wars so there is even a Choking Grasp talent.
The base ability of the Mind sphere lets you plant Suggestions so he could do the basic Jedi mind trick.
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My only contribution to the Vader discussion is you could home rule in the D20 starwars stuff fairly easily. Even if your just trying to map it across that would be a good starting point see how you'd build him there then see what class features work well as a match to it, for example telekinesis is a lot more limited in pathfinder than it is in starwars. So I think you'll need to go with the multi-class option above because one single class isn't likely to reflect him accurately.
His exact alignment isn't very important...OP even said it.
Holy crap, who gives a $#!+ what imaginary alignment Lord Vader is? Why is this what we chose to argue about? Nobody cares. Literally, nobody.
The hills people choose to die on will forever amuse me.
Lord Vader's class would probably be something with access to some form of telekinesis... it [telekinesis] is most accurate representation of "the Force" in PF1. Lord Vader wasn't much into the Enchantment/Charm parts of Jedi mind tricks BS... he would rather just put the squeeze on your windpipe to get you to comply.
I feel he would be best presented with full BAB, because he is boss like that. Max ranks in Profession Pilot (sailor?), because he THEE ace. I would probably make him an Android, because reasons.
I will also add that EVERYONE debating his alignment obviously cares what alignment he's classified as even if you don't. Nothing personal it just bugs me when your talking about something important to you with other people who share that view (subjects importance not necessarily your side of the debate) and someone who doesn't just dismisses it like this. We're all here to have fun and getting smacked on the nose and told something you enjoy is "bad wrong fun" just pushes people away from contributing to anything. I've left forums in the past because a large part of my enjoyment in anything is world building how it works, what's going on around the heroes, what options might be available to other people as an extension of this (rather than say super tech for the fantastic four and none of it available to the general public) only to have someone post in my thread "WHO #*#@(*#)* cares its a fictional world just make up some rubbish. What's important is character power X not what impact that could have on Joe Schlub."
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I'm thinking probably Magus or Kineticist is a proper fit for Vader. If we're just going based off of the movies, he doesn't really do all that much that can't be covered by a magus. I'm not too familiar with expanded universe stuff, if you had that in mind, too.
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If we're just going based off of the movies, he doesn't really do all that much that can't be covered by a magus.
Actually I just thought of one thing Vader does that isn't covered by a regular Magus - block lasers with his light saber.
I'm not super familiar with Weapon Mastery feats, but CUT FROM THE AIR and SMASH FROM THE AIR seem to cover it. Is there a way to get them without Weapon Training?
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Awesome.
Carry on =)
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Yeah, at least gestalt of Telekinetic Kineticist. Its the easiest way to use the force. Or at least some archetype of a class that gets the telekinesis, telekinetic haul, telekinetic finesse and force choke powers of a kineticist.
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Probably Kineticist is what you want, then, since martial focus/cut from the air is a thing. It seems to cover what he does, for the most part.
I'm seeing suggestions for Gestalting, but I think it's unnecessary. Vader doesn't exactly have such a wide variety of powers that he needs two classes to cover it.