Clerics and Oracles are good healers and buffers. They can be reasonably effective combatants if they are built for it, but that will impact their support role. I consider clerics to be the easiest to learn and play of the four full divine casters, because channeling and domains are fairly straightforward compared to the other three classes' special features.
Oracles are more complicated due to their revelations and curses, but I enjoyed the one I played, who reached 12th level or just beyond. (Dedicated healer, practically a pacifist, but I chose the Lore mystery to make her useful for more than just healing and being the party face.) Choosing a curse that will not consistently detract from your fun may pose a bit of a challenge. (My oracle had the tongues curse, so the PCs who cared most about any useful info she might spout during combat quickly learned the language(s) she was allowed to speak under stress. It worked out well enough, and enhanced her growing reputation as a holy woman.)
Druids can be good combatants with wild shape, if you have the physical ability scores to back it up. (If you're used to D&D 3E or 5E, where you pretty much just use the creature's stat block as-is, you'll be in for a rude shock if you dumped Str. As did one of my players in a campaign that we converted from 3.5 to PF1 halfway through.) They also have a number of useful battlefield-control and damaging spells. They can contribute some healing if the party is lacking a dedicated healer, but are more fun if they don't have to swap out more interesting spells to fill that role.
I've played one shaman, up to 12th level, and I'm still not sure how effectively I was able to play him. The spirit rules make the class complicated, especially once you get access to wandering spirit and wandering hex. (I made a cheat sheet of all of his options for those, and still defaulted to the same load-out over 90% of the time.) I liked the character concept fine (spooky half-orc fortune-teller, heavens mystery), but it's my least favorite class of the four full divine casters.
Clerics are a solid choice due to their huge amount of available spells, and their ability to swap any of them out for cure* spells is great. They have a less defined theme than any of the other classes, but that lack of an inherent theme makes it easier to adapt them to a concept that you have in mind. They're more of a blank slate that you can do what you want with; the huge amount of archetypes and other character options makes it easy to use a cleric to fit many different character concepts. In fact, if I know I'm going to play a divine caster, I'll usually assume I'm playing a cleric while I figure out the concept I want to create, and then only consider switching to another divine class if it feels like any of those are a better fit.
* This assumes that you're playing a positive energy cleric. I've never seen much point in playing a negative energy cleric, since there's already plenty of spells for a cleric to do damage. If that fits with the concept you want to play, however, more power to you. I've never played one, but I understand that a cleric is one of the better necromancer-themed concepts to play.
Druids are great! I love them! But as Tim implied above, you need to choose to focus on melee wildshape or as a caster to be effective. Both can be fun. If you go caster route, wildshape is still a great tool to have for flight, stealth, and defensiveness. Not everyone will share this viewpoint, but druids are the most fun to play when the druid asserts their desire to protect nature/enforce balance even when it comes at odds with what others in the party want to do. Like cleric, the class has been around the longest, so it has a huge amount of archetypes and character options.
Oracles have the strongest themes to play around with, in my opinion. They are powerful casters, and their mysteries can be both colorful and powerful. I do like how their curses are legitimate, permanent handicaps that grow into mechanical benefits as you level up. They also have a wide range of spells to choose from, although this is focused by the curse and mystery chosen.
Shamans I have the least amount of experience with, but I agree with Tim that they are on the complicated side of the classes. Play one eventually, but I don't recommend it as your first divine full caster. Like oracles, they have a lot going for them thematically.
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So; I'm personally not that big a fan of clerics. They're all pretty similar to each other. Sure you can still specialize your spells and channel either positive or negative energy; but they just don't have enough class features. Plus I don't especially like prepared casting. When you don't have good information about what you're doing the following day its easy to fail to have sufficient spells prepared. If you're fine with having a mediocre loadout of buff and summoning spells when you don't have a good idea of what threats are head; Cleric is very beginner friendly for a 9th level caster.
Druid is another prepared class, and its kinda campaign dependent. The more outdoorsy your campaign -> the better the druid will feel. Not just from class features, but Wild Shape provides unparrelled scouting and movement even if you're not building to punch things as a bear. I love being able to choose a companion, domain, or free potions as appropriate. Again, I'm not a big fan of playing a prepared caster but at the same time a lot of Druid Spells are so incredibly situational that when you need them you'll have time to rest and prepare them. Wildshape is not beginner friendly though; especially if you aren't making yourself spare sheets for whatever form you take. Keeping track of all the various polymorph bonuses and size changes is a lot of work.
Oracle was my first class and I much prefer them. You have a number of different abilities thanks to your curse and mystery; you do have to pick and choose your spells as a spontaneous caster but you can spam them to your hearts content based on the situation. Its weaker than say the Sorcerer, just because of the nature of the cleric list, but being able to spam your spells instead of saving them for the exact moment they're needed is a huge upgrade in my book. Its the divine sorcerer and I love it for that.
Shaman is another class that I'm fond of; mostly for its incredible utility. Every day the Shaman can focus on doing something a little different for the party. Hexes are also quite nice as non-spell actions, even if you're locked out of the really good witch hexes. Again, its a third prepared class though and its native spell list is fairly niche. On the flip side you get to augment that with the spirit magic from your spirits for the day. Its the most work of any of the classes but also I think the most versatile. Fun if you don't mind the paper work.
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I am not much of a fan of the Cleric and that is because I find them mechanically boring. Add an archetype or two that change things up and you've got my attention again. Their domains and channel energy are pretty much the only thing they have going for them outside of their spell list. Also, I'm not that much of a fan of prepared casters. I am not knocking the Cleric by any means. It is a solid and powerful class. I just find them not very aesthetically pleasing. If given the choice between a Cleric and a 6th level casting divine class with more class features, I'd pick the 6th level caster almost every time.
Oracles... well, I like spontaneous casters so this is more my style despite the later spell access. The mystery, revelations, and curse allow you a great deal of flexibility in creating what you want. I would say this is my favorite class out of the four, except ... its not. It gets REALLY close when you use the Spirit Guide archetype, because now it pulls in some things from the Shaman class, which is my favorite class. They've got the spell slots to heal, access to channel energy (two forms through Spirit Guide and the Life/Restoration spirit).
Druid... I vastly prefer to play a druid over a cleric. Despite sharing a few things (like prepared casting, domain access), I just like the flavor and versatility that wild shape and having an animal companion allows. I enjoy the buffs and druid specific spells. And the archetypes are ... well, there are a bunch of duds that only shift a few things, but then there are others like Elemental Ally that just tickle me. Druids are not the best healers, lacking access to Channel Energy except through very specific domains that effect very specific subtypes. The selection of certain feats to enhance your wildshape can even let you smite very similarly to a Paladin. Druid is my 'go to' divine caster selection when I'm playing a wilderness themed or adjacent game.
Now, for Shaman. I am dangerously biased towards this class for what could appear to hypocritical reasons. It is a prepared caster, but CAN spontaneously cast their spirit spells depending on selections. They combine the two class I enjoy a lot (witches and oracles). Even before archetypes, their range of versatility is impressive. They are the ONLY CLASS that can combine the powers of a familiar and animal companion in one creature.
General observations: All four can be versatile in multiple roles; and in some cases dominant in multiple roles. There are also a lot of options with customizing the character (some classes more than others).
Cleric: The most straightforward choice. Most of the class customization comes from choices made during character creation (channeling, deity, domains, possibly archetype[s]) and the spells prepared each day, although there are some feat choices that impact class features and also some prestige classes that may be suitable for a given concept. Requires more effort by the player to stay on the "straight and narrow" with regards to serving the interests of their church/deity (some deities [and GMs] are more strict about this than others).
Druid: Even more versatile with regards to roles than a cleric (blasting and infiltration, for instance), but (again) most customization comes during creation and the spells prepared each day. The customization can have more of an effect on class features than with a cleric. Certain feats (such as Natural Spell) are considered "must haves" and there may be fewer suitable prestige classes for customization after character creation. Generally has more freedom than a cleric with regard to actions.
Oracle: Very customizable mechanically and thematically during creation (mystery) and when advancing (revelations, spells known), but more limited on day-to-day versatility (although the spirit guide archetype allows you to work around that). Can possibly be one of the strongest archers (Wood mystery, Wood Bond revelation, elf or half-elf for proficiency with a bow and the alternate favored class bonus to boost the [competence] bonus from Wood Bond [effectively the same bonus to bow attacks as a full BAB class 19 out of 20 levels], divine favor or divine power [luck bonus]; possibly 4 levels of the Deadeye Devotee prestige class) while retaining 9th-level spell access.
Shaman: Probably the most complicated choice. Choosing hexes, spirits, etc. can induce "analysis paralysis" in some players; especially since some choices are made during creation/advancement and some can be changed each day (or even more frequently in some cases). Can range from very powerful to meh, depending on the player's choices for the character.
I don't especially like prepared casting. When you don't have good information about what you're doing the following day its easy to fail to have sufficient spells prepared. If you're fine with having a mediocre loadout of buff and summoning spells when you don't have a good idea of what threats are head;
I dispute the logic of this.
Certainly it is much better if you are playing a prepared caster and know what challenges are ahead and can prepare spells accordingly.
If you do not you just have to prepare spells which are generally useful, which is nowhere near as good. Perfectly logical up to here.
BUT, this puts the prepared caster in the same position as the spontaneous caster. OK, the spontaneous caster has [slightly] more spells and can use their spells known in any combination, which is great. But they are one level behind in getting access to 2nd and higher level spells, which is dreadful.
What seals the deal for me in favour of prepared casters is spontaneous casters is the latter can only ever use their spells known without items. Divine prepared casters are particularly good as they have immediate access to every spell on their list.
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GENERALLY, in response to the original question, the responses above are pretty much in consensus, and I agree with that consensus.
So I am going to talk about my favourite divine caster, the Speaker for the Past Shaman.
I have not played a Shaman with the wandering spirit feature. It is obviously excellent and is what makes shaman's unique. But it is too much work for me and risks me holding up the game while I update for the day.
The Speaker for the Past trades this away for improvements to the classes skills and spell list and a total of 5 oracle revelations over 20 levels. A standard Oracle gets 7. And you get to draw from 2 oracle mysteries, the good Ancestors and Time, which is as good as it gets.
The result is a PC with a good arsenal or hexes, revelations and spells that all run off wisdom. This provides great flexibility in how you can meet the challenges of the game. Further, using hexes and sometimes revelations tends to save spells or allow an alternative when spells are running low.
Spirit guide is fantastic and probably the most powerful oracle archetype.
I played one in a skulls and shackles, very flexible, can adjust to situations, still plays quickly and smoothly.
OK, the spontaneous caster has [slightly] more spells and can use their spells known in any combination, which is great. But they are one level behind in getting access to 2nd and higher level spells, which is dreadful.
What seals the deal for me in favour of prepared casters is spontaneous casters is the latter can only ever use their spells known without items. Divine prepared casters are particularly good as they have immediate access to every spell on their list.
Access to the spells one level later is painful, but that’s how much value I place on being able to use your spells in any combination. I will give the divine lists credit for giving you the whole list for prepared casting, but as you mentioned items do exist. Scrolls, potions, staffs, and a mnemonic vestment can go a long way to solving your (non-combat) versatility problems as a spontaneous caster.
End of the day it’s just a preference thing. 9th level casters are poweful regardless of casting method by nature of being 9th level casters. I was just offering my opinion as someone who frequently plays divine characters.
@Shrouded Light- Different people evaluate things differently.
One of the times I played a spontaneous caster I crafted a mnemonic vestment with the same enchantment put in the item a second time, at 150% cost, so I could use it twice a day. That item is the spontaneous casters best friend imho.
Mnemonic vestment alleviate a lot of things, like, its a once a day semi spellbook with stuff like "Remove X", or stone shape, or other situationally useful but not *pick me!* spells.
I enjoy bloodrager/fighter/Barbarian X divine casters a lot, an am particularly fond of Steelblood (bloodrager) 1/oracle characters. You have heavy armor, martial weapons, a bloodrage, a few situational boni, but are still eventually a full caster, even if it takes to level 5 to get level 2 magic.
Swashbuckler/oracle works great too, lots and lots of panache.
Spirit guide is fantastic and probably the most powerful oracle archetype.
I played one in a skulls and shackles, very flexible, can adjust to situations, still plays quickly and smoothly.
I may be missing something as I have never played the archetype and haven't played a oracle.
Spirit Guide gets only a restricted version of the wandering spirit and grants only one hex, which wanders too. It costs 3 revelations, leaving only 3.
My favoured Speaker for the Past gets 5 revelations and 8 hexes. It seems to me that this must be much better. Can the restricted wandering spirit really be that good?
I may be missing something as I have never played the archetype and haven't played a oracle.
Spirit Guide gets only a restricted version of the wandering spirit and grants only one hex, which wanders too. It costs 3 revelations, leaving only 3.
My favoured Speaker for the Past gets 5 revelations and 8 hexes. It seems to me that this must be much better. Can the restricted wandering spirit really be that good?
Spirit Guide Oracles also receive (some of) the spirit abilities of the spirit as well as access to the spirit magic spells, which they add to their spells known for they day. The added spells alone is pretty much worth a single revelation, while the spirit abilities themselves are each generally equivalent to a revelation. The fact that you can CHANGE them every day makes them very valuable.
For the Life Spirit, that is:
Spells: detect undead (1st), lesser restoration (2nd), neutralize poison (3rd), restoration (4th), breath of life (5th), heal (6th), greater restoration (7th), mass heal (8th), true resurrection (9th)
Spirit Abilities: Channel Energy (7th level) and Healer's Touch (15th level).
Personally, I'd put a Spirit Guide Oracle and a basic Shaman on the same footing of power. The Oracle edges out the Shaman for having a better spell list, but the Shaman gets access to higher level spells a level earlier. I am extremely biased with these two classes though.
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Gaining an extra spell per spell level for a spontaneous caster is a huge advantage. Being able to change those spells on a daily basis make it even better. The fact that many of these spells are not on the oracle spell list makes the ability incredibly powerful. You can always take extra feat Extra revelations to regain your lost revelations. But no feats will give you the ability to swap out 17 different spells known of each spell level you can cast.
A 16th level spirit guide oracle of the heavens with the blackened curse will have 29 spells known of up to 8th level just from his mystery, curse and sprit, including all cure spells. That still leave the player the full allotment of spells known to choose. After taking extra revelation 3 times you still have 6 feats left. If you take the restoration (or life spirit) you get most of the condition removal spells and breadth of life can restore a dead character. You will also have channel energy to heal and can take enhanced cures to boost your cure spells, especially the lower-level cures. Play a race that gets extra spells known to give you even more spells known. At this point the limited number of spells of a spontaneous caster is not really that much of a limit. You know more spells than the cleric can memorize and can cast more spells.
Thanks. Now I know what I was missing.
Cleric with a 1 level dip into Slayer.
Cleric with a 1 level dip into Slayer.
But why?
Cleric with a 1 level dip into Slayer.But why?
Slayer gives access to a bunch of class skills. Especially perception. Studied target is good. The boost to your reflex save won’t hurt. Access to martial weapons. +1BAB. And the cleric has excellent spell casting.
At that point why not just play a nature fang Druid? You still get Studied Target and you’re not losing caster levels or spell progression.
No reason not to play a nature fang druid, if that’s what you’re feeling.
Usually, its the lack of martial weapon proficiency and limitations on armor that get in the way, and have to be worked around, when deciding to play a Nature Fang druid. You can get around the armor issue by worshiping Gorum.
Followers are forbidden from casting the rusting grasp spell. Druids are permitted to wear metal armor, though they do not automatically gain proficiency in any other categories of armor. They cannot cast spells while wearing metal armor, nor does it meld with them when they use wild shape; druids interested in metal armor acquire a set for a specific beast form and have allies or slaves put it on them when it is time to fight.
I played a Nature Fang druid of Gorum in a giantslayer campaign a while back. Crocodile domain, protector familiar, lots of fun.
That is certainly an interesting and unusual character idea Deathless One.
However I am not convinced it is the best solution to the problems you mention in terms of effectiveness.
You still have to spend feats on Medium and maybe heavy armour proficiency and martial weapons. And you can't use your druid spells while in metal armour.
Alternative answers like dragon skin armour and maybe a one level dip into fighter may be more effective.
Great, now we have to dig through all the fighter archetypes to find one that trades tower shield proficiency out for something useful to a druid.
;)
I have a player that makes the worst multiclass characters imaginable and I have to houserule half a dozen things to keep them relevant. So my personal, extremely biased, suggestion is that you play mono-class when doing a full divine caster unless you are going for a specific prestige class.
Talk with your GM about the Alternate Capstones from Chronicle of Legends if your campaign goes to 20 since this gives full casters like the cleric an actual capstone ability. Which discourages this one level dip "nonsense" (I am mildly bitter).
@ShroudedInLight
It sounds like your player's understanding of the game is not the best.
I know that some players swear by a one level dip into a martial class when playing a divine caster.
I have not tried it but it seems likely this works well at making the character a decent melee combatant at lower levels but would suffer at higher levels when casters start to dominate the game.
At least 90% of the time the most effective characters are built by putting all your levels into your base class. That has always been by deliberate design. So I don't think you are just bitter, dips are a mistake more often than not.
Clerics already get proficiency in medium armor, shields and their deities favored weapon. Many races also gain proficiency in some decent weapons. Dwarves, elves and half orcs all have proficiency in some good weapons. Half elves can gain proficiency in any martial or exotic weapon by trading away adaptability. Gaining proficiency in all martial weapons is not that important for a cleric. Druids do not gain their deities favored weapon but are proficient in scimitars and spears. That leaves only shaman and oracles of a race without racial weapons. Oracles of battle can gain proficiency with heavy armor and all martial weapons from a revelation.
At 1st level no one can afford heavy armor. Even after you gain a level or two the only heavy armor you can afford is not much better than a breast plate. Until you reach at least 4th level heavy armor is going to take up the majority of your wealth by level leaving you no room for anything else. By the time the divine caster can afford heavy armor their medium BAB is starting to reduce their ability to participate in melee combat. But at that point their spells are becoming more important.
So, while a single level dip in a martial class looks good on paper, in reality it is not as beneficial as it seems.
@ Mysterious Stranger
I agree with you. But why do so many players swear by a one level dip into a martial class when playing a divine caster? They are attracted by the apparent benefits not realising it does not work as well as it appears?
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When I played D&D 3.0/3.5, it seemed like you were the dumb one if you didn't level dip in at least one other class.
In PF1, it seems quite odd if you do a level dip.
That's one reason why I like PF1 so much. It's better if you don't level dip (you have so many options that it's really not necessary), but it also allows you to if you really want.
I have no idea whether level dipping is a thing in PF2.
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If I had to guess why some players constantly advocate for a one-level dip (or even two-levels in a couple cases) in a martial class for a divine caster, I suspect it's because they assume that if it works for some specific characters (such as a paladin dip with oracle) then it must be a good thing for every character.
Or they are used to a certain style of play and really want the bonus combat feat(s) for a fighter dip. Or the extra skills of a ranger or slayer (and possibly the combat style feat with a two-level dip).
PF1e definitely made dipping (and prestige classes) less common than D&D 3.x, but there are some instances where it can make sense.
PF2 uses a very different mechanic than PF1 for "multiclassing" using feats.
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Observation bias. More people will post about a dip that they are unsure might work than post about a straight build that simply works. Or they have a dip that does work really well and they want to share the rare find.
Most dips aren’t catastrophic in effectiveness as I’ve seen, marginally better or worse, but the nature of message boards amplifies how much each difference will make in the course of play — Because other people saw me saying this was better, I will prove I’m right or circle the world a few times trying.
D&D 3.5 actually made it somewhat more difficult to take a 1 level dip. You had to have the right race for your favored class, or you took a XP penalty.
Martials can happily dip. A fighter might have a level of cleric (will save, spells, scrolls, wands, +10 move for Travel domain), a level of barbarian (skills, reflex, +10 move, rage), a level of bloodrager (spells, scrolls, wands, +10 move) and be fast like a monk on the battlefield for the loss of 1 BAB, as well as much more versatile when not hitting things.
It can kinda work for 4- and 6-casters, but for 9-casters it's probably for character concept rather than utility. It depends on whether the campaign expects powergaming.
My Reign of Winter cleric with one level of slayer had the best perception and sense motive in the group. With Alertness, of course. Studied target is useable with sense motive. The Druid had second best perception.
Not really the original plan but I ended up being in the front line of combat because the melee player dropped out. The other characters were quite a bit more squishy.
Because Reign of Winter , I took a rank in bluff, always the plan with that is to do aid other support. (In so many games I’ve been in I’ve ended up being the primary face when I just thought to be support. Play by post seems like the high charisma player is the first to quit.)
True, we only played to third level before the game died, but that level of slayer was nothing but good. I really don’t think that missing out on one level of cleric was going to matter much.
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@ Mysterious Stranger
I agree with you. But why do so many players swear by a one level dip into a martial class when playing a divine caster? They are attracted by the apparent benefits not realising it does not work as well as it appears?
One of the benefits is the +2 to the fortitude save, but that matters mostly for arcane casters, not divine ones.
We generally use the Fractional Base Bonuses, so there is no double dipping.For full spellcasters, a one-level dip generally is a disadvantage, unless you want to get some prestige class with specific benefits.
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Martials can happily dip. A fighter might have a level of cleric (will save, spells, scrolls, wands, +10 move for Travel domain), a level of barbarian (skills, reflex, +10 move, rage), a level of bloodrager (spells, scrolls, wands, +10 move) and be fast like a monk on the battlefield for the loss of 1 BAB, as well as much more versatile when not hitting things.
It can kinda work for 4- and 6-casters, but for 9-casters it's probably for character concept rather than utility. It depends on whether the campaign expects powergaming.
For your happy dip, maybe Inquisitor is better than cleric. You get fewer spells, but more skill points and more class skills.
I'd like to note that the reason dipping worked better in 3.0/3.5 was because classes had fewer bonuses on level up. Lots of times you would encounter "dead" levels in those games where you didn't gain any new abilities. Lots of abilities are front loaded into the first few levels of a class, so dipping let you make your levels count.
3.5 especially had extremely powerful prestige classes, so typically you would only play your base class until you could get into a prestige class that did the job better or unlocked you something cool. Then you'd use that to build the prerequsites for your next prestige class.
@Joyant Jeezebel - Yeah, that player is a bit frustrating. They don't want help with the build. They pick a fluff idea and make all their mechanical choices around their fluff...with no thoughts given to the effectiveness of the resulting character. I pretty much just design my encounters around the party having -1 character and any time this player happens to contribute it a happy little accident. Unfortunately their choice of fluff this time doesn't really provide anything to the party it doesn't already have through other characters, so its hard for me to give them chances to shine. They're currently a hybrid druid / bard. They've basically dumped all their combat stats to have maxed out Wisdom and Charisma, they took the animal domain and have 4 bard levels so their animal companion is hopeless behind curve even with Boon Companion, our Hunter has access to higher level Druid spells than this guy, and the only thing they really have going for them that the other members of the party don't cover is their wild shape (which is also 4 levels behind the curve due to the bard levels).
I've just learned to live with it but as a result anytime someone comes to my table and is like "I wanna multiclass" I give them a look and go "are you sure we can't find you an archetype? Or maybe look at the house rules I adopted from VMC? Please?"
I think one of the reasons so many people favor the 1 level dip is fear of missing out. They see the fighter wearing heavy armor and using better weapons and want the same thing. They ignore the fact that the fighter is often useless in many situations their characters can contribute to and focus on what they do not have. They also focusing on instant gratification and ignore the fact that by gaining a slight advantage now they pay a greater price for it at higher level.
If you want your cleric to have a good weapon and use heavy armor the best way is to pick a deity and or races to provide the weapon and spend your 1st level proficiency on heavy armor. For a full caster using a feat is much better than losing a caster level.
With few exceptions multiclassing in Pathfinder 1E is usually a mistake. Taking 2 levels of paladin for an oracle is one I can see being worth it. Adding CHA to all saves for a CHA based character with only one good save is a huge benefit. Being able to add CHA to hit and AC and bypass all DR is also useful at any level. Lay on hand is great at early levels but becomes minor once you reach higher levels. The one benefit the oracle does have is due to their high CHA they get more lay on hand than normal. Add in proficiency with all martial weapons and heavy armor is minor but still useful.
The other multiclass combination that works surprisingly well is fighter/rouge. Neither class have many level dependent class features and the synergy between the classes is quite good. If you use the unchained rouge, it is even better. You end up with a character with 2 good save, 5 skill points per level, 5/6 BAB, weapon finesse and DEX to damage, and a lot of other class feature that work well together. Armor training and weapon training also are very useful. Your sneak attack is weaker than a pure rogue, but you have a better chance of actually hitting.
@Joyant Jeezebel - Yeah, that player is a bit frustrating. They don't want help with the build.
Players often do not. Even when they don't know what they are doing. I try to help less experienced players with their characters or to get the party efficient in terms of what the group can do. Often I am not followed or it is even resented so I have given up doing it unless asked.
Then I get asked for advice after many decisions have been made which can politely be called sub-optimal.
And it is Joynt Jezebel. I am only Joyant Jezebel when I am ecstatic, which unfortunately isn't very often.