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So I’m curious on some of the ridiculous legit AC builds you have seen. We had a player in my old group who made a Dwarf Armor Master Fighter (got him all the way to 20)
Who wore
+5 full plate (14)
+5 Tower Shield (9)
+5 ring of protection
+5 amulet of natural armor
+5 defending dwarven war axe
+1 Shield Focus
+1 greater shield focus
His dex was maxed at a +5 in armor but he wasn’t that high. So even without dex
That’s a 45 (50 with defending active); 20/25 touch. Offensively it relied on cleaving and sunders. Was a fun teammate until it got dominated and we had to fight it
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Hmm.... Well, I made a Brawler for the Crimson Throne game that had some levels of ridiculous AC. He dipped into prestige class for three levels, though this did not effect his AC, and he took the variant multi class Cavalier option (Order of the Eastern Star).
10 (base)
+5 (Dexterity modifier)
+11 Armor (+5 lamellar steel armor: Mithril)
+6 Shield (+5 light steel shield)
+5 Defending (+5 defending spikes on that shield)
+5 Deflection (+5 Ring of Protection)
+5 Natural (+5 Amulet of Natural armor)
+1 Dodge (Dodge Feat)
+5 Dodge (Combat Expertise)
+5 Dodge (Cavalier Challenge)
+4 Dodge (Osyluth Guile feat)
+2 Dodge (Defensive Weapon Training via Martial Flexibility)
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So, that's 59 AC before any kind of magical 'spell' buffs. I haven't really optimized him for complete 'turtling' and spent lots of his other resources helping to offset the consequences of being so defensive (namely attack bonus decreasing from Combat Expertise).
The character had ZERO ability to cast spells or use magic. He relied on UMD or magical weapons/armor/items to even come close.
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Going to have to update that total, since my memory wasn't as sharp as I thought it was.
Here is base AC (aka, no special abilities activated)
10 (base)
+5 (Dexterity modifier)
+11 Armor (+5 lamellar steel armor: Mithril)
+6 Shield (+5 light steel shield)
+5 Deflection (+5 Ring of Protection)
+5 Natural (+5 Amulet of Natural armor)
+1 Dodge (Dodge Feat)
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43
Adding special abilities:
+5 Defending (+5 defending spikes on that shield)
+4 Dodge (Osyluth Guile feat)
+2 Dodge (Defensive Weapon Training via Martial Flexibility)
+5 Dodge (Fighting Defensively + Crane Style)
+6 Dodge (Combat Expertise)
+6 Dodge (Cavalier Challenge)
+4 Dodge (Inspire Heroics)
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+36
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Total AC: 75
Flat-Footed: 42
Touch: 53
I am sure I can boost that higher if I filled out the rest of his feats properly. I just updated him to level 20 from his level 10 stats where the game ended.
Character is just a Brawler (Exemplar) 17 / Chevalier 3 with the VMC Cavalier (order of the eastern star).
Notable abilities: Inspire Prowess (EX version of Bard Songs: Inspire Courage, Greatness, and Heroics), Can Smite Evil 1/day, Greater Vital Strike, Awesome Blow, Knockout, Deflect/Snatch/Throwback Arrows, Has DR 4/-, Can grant Teamwork feats, Call to Arms (remove flat-footed condition from party), has insanely high CMD of 76 (because of the dodge bonuses) and higher CMV vs Grapple (93), Sunder (84) and Trip (85). AND, he can ignore the penalty from Combat Expertise on the first attacks he makes with his fist and shield each turn (and doesn't take any defensive fighting penalties to attack). He has around a +40 to hit with either weapon, before any 'buffs', and gets 7 attacks per round without haste.
........ I want to play this Character again.
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in PFS i ran a Cavalier Honor Guard Envoy (6), Bard Savage Skald (1), Rogue Thug (1), Battle Herald (1), Ranger Freebooter (2)
i only had a 36ish ac, as did my mount
we used the bodyguard feat, with benevolent armor/barding, the halfling trait to add to aid another.
I'd add 11 to an adjacent characters ac, and my mount could add 9 more
so together we could just pump up someone elses ac by 20, or eachothers by about 10
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Going to have to update that total, since my memory wasn't as sharp as I thought it was.
Here is base AC (aka, no special abilities activated)
10 (base)
+5 (Dexterity modifier)
+11 Armor (+5 lamellar steel armor: Mithril)
+6 Shield (+5 light steel shield)
+5 Deflection (+5 Ring of Protection)
+5 Natural (+5 Amulet of Natural armor)
+1 Dodge (Dodge Feat)
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43Adding special abilities:
+5 Defending (+5 defending spikes on that shield)
+4 Dodge (Osyluth Guile feat)
+2 Dodge (Defensive Weapon Training via Martial Flexibility)
+5 Dodge (Fighting Defensively + Crane Style)
+6 Dodge (Combat Expertise)
+6 Dodge (Cavalier Challenge)
+4 Dodge (Inspire Heroics)
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+36------------------
Total AC: 75
Flat-Footed: 42
Touch: 53I am sure I can boost that higher if I filled out the rest of his feats properly. I just updated him to level 20 from his level 10 stats where the game ended.
Character is just a Brawler (Exemplar) 17 / Chevalier 3 with the VMC Cavalier (order of the eastern star).
Notable abilities: Inspire Prowess (EX version of Bard Songs: Inspire Courage, Greatness, and Heroics), Can Smite Evil 1/day, Greater Vital Strike, Awesome Blow, Knockout, Deflect/Snatch/Throwback Arrows, Has DR 4/-, Can grant Teamwork feats, Call to Arms (remove flat-footed condition from party), has insanely high CMD of 76 (because of the dodge bonuses) and higher CMV vs Grapple (93), Sunder (84) and Trip (85). AND, he can ignore the penalty from Combat Expertise on the first attacks he makes with his fist and shield each turn (and doesn't take any defensive fighting penalties to attack). He has around a +40 to hit with either weapon, before any 'buffs', and gets 7 attacks per round without haste.
........ I want to play this Character again.
Do all those dodge bones stack?
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Do all those dodge bones stack?
Dodge bonuses are the only bonuses that do stack.
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
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Dodge bonuses are the only bonuses that do stack.
Along with Circumstance, Racial, and Untyped Bonuses.
With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties — a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
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I've seen (and participated in) plenty of "what's the highest theoretical AC you can get this character to?" threads. I think the highest AC I've actually seen in practice (pro-rated by level) was one of my PFS characters who regularly rocked a 41 AC (32 touch) at 11th level. Occasionally it would be higher - depending on buffs available. I know I could have eked out at least another 5 or 6 points if I had chosen to spend my money differently and another 2 or 3 with different stats/feats.
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Honestly never seen anyone use combat expertise in general. It's the kind of feat people try to get out of taking.
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You can use combat expertise AND fight defensively at the same time?
Don't know why I never realized that
Yeah, you can totally do that. Fighting defensively is a full round action. Combat Expertise can be activated when you make an attack. It is not an action. Most people don't because of the severe attack penalties involved.
Honestly never seen anyone use combat expertise in general. It's the kind of feat people try to get out of taking.
In my experience, it is because they either lack the required INT score or don't have ways to get past the penalties to hit. Or their character builds are so tight with feats that they cut everything they can. It is a great feat, just not a flashy one.
Honestly, after 7th level, I only knew which direction I wanted to go with the next three levels (Prestige class) and that was about it. I had everything online that I needed feat wise from 5th level, and the Guarded ability for the VMC Cavalier came online. The only feats I NEEDED (wanted) were Chain Challenge (5th) and Combat Expertise (1st). I picked up Lingering Performance (1st: Human Bonus) and planned to retrain later once I had sufficient rounds to fuel the Inspiring Prowess ability. Most of the other feats I picked up were prerequisites for other feats or feats I used with Martial Flexibility and thought were great enough to make permanent.
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Because of iterative attacks, attack penalties are almost always a bad thing, no matter how high your attack bonus. You'd have to be in some real super minmax territory for a -1 to attack to not be meaningfully detrimental.
I guess it might be useful when you can't make a full attack, but that's hardly optimal in itself. Maybe a natural attack build, who doesn't make iteratives? Not sure how high the attack bonuses can get on those.
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Because of iterative attacks, attack penalties are almost always a bad thing, no matter how high your attack bonus. You'd have to be in some real super minmax territory for a -1 to attack to not be meaningfully detrimental.
Or be a character whose purpose isn't really to do damage in which case the likelihood of hitting isn't a consideration. The 41 AC character I mentioned above was a concept that worked well but isn't for every group. Great skills, tons and tons of long-duration buffs to hand out to the party, and at 11th level could attack for 1d6-1 damage. Once combat started he had a couple of in-combat buffs to hand out but mainly would wander around eating up AoOs and providing flanks. Fun fact: you can take an ineffectual swing at the NPC next to you while using Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively. Then make your movement with a higher AC.
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Because of iterative attacks, attack penalties are almost always a bad thing, no matter how high your attack bonus. You'd have to be in some real super minmax territory for a -1 to attack to not be meaningfully detrimental.Or be a character whose purpose isn't really to do damage in which case the likelihood of hitting isn't a consideration. The 41 AC character I mentioned above was a concept that worked well but isn't for every group. Great skills, tons and tons of long-duration buffs to hand out to the party, and at 11th level could attack for 1d6-1 damage. Once combat started he had a couple of in-combat buffs to hand out but mainly would wander around eating up AoOs and providing flanks. Fun fact: you can take an ineffectual swing at the NPC next to you while using Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively. Then make your movement with a higher AC.
The problem is there's no "taunt" so when an enemy realizes they can't hit you they just go after someone else.
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The problem is there's no "taunt" so when an enemy realizes they can't hit you they just go after someone else.
Certain cavalier orders can de-incentivize ignoring them. The Order of the Shield gets a bonus to attack the target of their challenge if the target attacks anyone other than the cavalier.
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In one campaign that wrapped recently, we last played at 18th, with enough XP to reach 19th if we ever go back to it. My ranger/fighter was the lowest-AC frontliner, in the mid-30s (2-handed build, so no shield hurt). Our other frontliner was an armor master fighter, minimum AC 40+, touch about 1/2 that.
But our zen archer was the clear winner with her AC at 50+ by 18th. I'll to ask my wife how she did it.
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15th Level Rogue - keep in mind this is my AC for 1 round against 1 opponent which I have hit 5 times to get the offensive/defense bonus
Armor +9 Celestial Armor
Deflect +2 Ring of Prot
Dex +8
Shield +2 +1 Buckler
Dodge +3 Fight Def
Dodge +45 Offensive Defense (since self-nerfed as this is ridiculous)
Base +10
Nat Armor +5 Amulet84 AC
84 Flat Footed (cant be flat footed
68 Touch
You might want to reread offensive defense… it can’t ever grant more than a +10… and for your 15th level rogue it caps out at +8. Hitting multiple times does NOT grant a larger bonus. It specifically states that it does NOT stack with itself. Hitting 5 times results in 8=8=8=8=8=+8 it does not result in 8+8+8+8+8=+45.
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You might want to reread offensive defense… it can’t ever grant more than a +10… and for your 15th level rogue it caps out at +8. Hitting multiple times does NOT grant a larger bonus. It specifically states that it does NOT stack with itself. Hitting 5 times results in 8=8=8=8=8=+8 it does not result in 8+8+8+8+8=+45.
AFAIK there never was a final decision made about Offensive Defense. While the design team acknowledged there was a problem back in 2012, the FAQ entry has never been updated from:
While we haven’t reached a final decision on what to do about this talent, we are leaning toward this solution: the dodge bonus only applies against the creature you sneak attacked, and the dodge bonus does not stack with itself.
Offensive Defense does not specifically state that it does not stack with itself, but the Design Team was leaning that way. I certainly play it as if it does not stack.
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You might want to reread offensive defense… it can’t ever grant more than a +10… and for your 15th level rogue it caps out at +8. Hitting multiple times does NOT grant a larger bonus. It specifically states that it does NOT stack with itself.
The actual text of the talent is this: "When a rogue with this talent hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, the rogue gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each sneak attack die rolled for 1 round." APG pg. 132
d20pfsrd.com simply incorpoated the potential changes mentioned in the FAQ Belafon linked, ignoring that the FAQ is very explicit in that it doesn't actually change anything and that the respective text never got actually made as an actual change-by-FAQ or erratum. With absolutely no note that they they added something to the text.
The site should never be used for rule arguments.
keep in mind this is my AC for 1 round against 1 opponent which I have hit 5 times to get the offensive/defense bonus
It's actually against all opponents, the limitation that the AC only works against the target was removed for the 2nd printing of the APG alongside the switch from '+1 circumstance bonus' to '+x dodge bonus with x = SA dice'.
Yes...math is hard.
- Nah, math is fun! For example, it tells you this: I don't know what you were fighting, but a monster of the highest CR one is supposed to fight (CR=APL+3, i.e. 18 in this case) focussed on attacks following the monster creation guidlines has an attack roll of +28, meaning the highest total attack roll one can defend against is 47 (a 19 on the dice). Your Rogue had 47 AC with a single instance of Offensive Defense. So unless your party was fighting something beyond what they're supposed to fight (or at least an etraordinarily tough boss), OD stacking with itself did increase the AC by a whopping +1.
Wow, a free Dodge under specific conditions. Yep, that must absolutely be banned. Full casters with free metamagic couldn't compete with that!
See? Fun!
So DL, what you're saying is... keep using PFSRD? :) Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Yeah, I know, I was a little vague. Couldn't figure out how to make the text multicolored and blinking!
To get real for a moment, though, my reaction may seem extreme, but I've seen so many rule discussion get mislead by objectively wrong text on d20pfsrd. And if you think about it, it's the equivalent to fake news - not every news form an unreliable source is fake news, but a lot of bad things come from people trusting unreliable sources. And while people are unlikely to die from a mis-ruling in Pathfinder, I think the spreading of objectively wrong information should be opposed. Even if it's just to establish a culture of discerning between fact and falsity.