Hey folks, simple and fairly silly question but I’m not sure I’m understanding the free archetype variant.
Do the players get the archetype at 1st level, then at 2nd and every even get a free feat from the archetype
-or-
Do the players get the archetype at 2nd level for free, then the subsequent free archetype feat every even level?
I feel like the answer is simple and I’m overthinking it, thanks for the help!
You get a free archetype at 2nd level and then you can pick an archetype feat every 2 levels up to 20 for a total of 10 extra feats.
I'm trying this right now in my group just to see how much of a power increase it is. So far it appears to be substantial, but we will see in play.
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Since it is already a houserule - although an officially sanctioned one - you are of course free to change it to suit your purposes.
I'm trying this right now in my group just to see how much of a power increase it is. So far it appears to be substantial, but we will see in play.
It is a substantial increase in character flexibility and available options. And since breadth of options and character synergy are the best ways of optimizing a party as a whole, it can be a nice boost to the overall power level of the party - especially for low character count parties.
On the other hand, it doesn't substantially increase the numerical power of any particular attack, skill, or other ability. So it doesn't require as much adjustment from the GM. Basically you can still follow the encounter building guidelines in the CRB or run encounters from published materials without additional adjustments. Things might be slightly easier for the characters, but not game breakingly so.
Since it is already a houserule - although an officially sanctioned one - you are of course free to change it to suit your purposes.
I'm trying this right now in my group just to see how much of a power increase it is. So far it appears to be substantial, but we will see in play.It is a substantial increase in character flexibility and available options. And since breadth of options and character synergy are the best ways of optimizing a party as a whole, it can be a nice boost to the overall power level of the party - especially for low character count parties.
On the other hand, it doesn't substantially increase the numerical power of any particular attack, skill, or other ability. So it doesn't require as much adjustment from the GM. Basically you can still follow the encounter building guidelines in the CRB or run encounters from published materials without additional adjustments. Things might be slightly easier for the characters, but not game breakingly so.
My feeling at the moment is it will make the game much, much easier, though not trivial. Hard to make PF2 trivial.
We had a sorcerer, monk, fighter, and rogue in this particular group. The monk has bolted on Champion Paladin. The sorcerer has bolted on bard MC. The fighter has bolted on rogue. I'm not sure what the rogue is doing yet.
So far we've added bard Inspire Courage, Paladin Champion Reaction for the monk, and Rogue Sneak attack for the dual-weapon fighter using the Aldiori Dueling sword. While choosing the ideal feats for each class and the monk has a lot of good feats, so this is particularly good for the monk.
I feel it will have a more 5E like effect than breaking the numbers. Bounded Accuracy in 5E made it so you didn't much break the numbers with MCing, but you allowed the taking of ideal low level abilities of high value classes which led to an overall increase in power and a diminishing of base classes who did not choose to multiclass.
For example, a person playing a straight class Paladin in 5E felt inferior to a wizard who took a couple of level of paladins just to smite due to the high number of slots and versatility provided by spellcasting.
As I see it right now as a monk I will get the Champion's Reaction and free attack, while having the mobility, defenses, and best feats of a monk. I even managed to pick up Aura of Courage eventually in the build, which is one of the higher value Champion Feats.
We'll see how it goes in play. Data trumps white room math and feelings.
I'm fairly surprised Free Archetype seems common from quite a few posters. Maybe they were liberal with such choices PF1 as well. Adding 10 feats is a big deal in my opinion.
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As I see it right now as a monk I will get the Champion's Reaction and free attack, while having the mobility, defenses, and best feats of a monk. I even managed to pick up Aura of Courage eventually in the build, which is one of the higher value Champion Feats.
Yes but you can get some of these anyway. The feat to pick up Champion and a reaction, is pretty much worthwhile for any class that can afford the ability scores. You should see that even without free archetype.
As I see it right now as a monk I will get the Champion's Reaction and free attack, while having the mobility, defenses, and best feats of a monk. I even managed to pick up Aura of Courage eventually in the build, which is one of the higher value Champion Feats.Yes but you can get some of these anyway. The feat to pick up Champion and a reaction, is pretty much worthwhile for any class that can afford the ability scores. You should see that even without free archetype.
You can. I was already planning on picking up Champion with my monk, but the feats I had to give up were hard to do and it would have been much later in level. Now it's easy as pie and I can pick up Jalmeri Heavenseeker as well. Heaven's Thunder sickeningly overpowered I think, but I'm going to test it in play. Then I'll adjust it as needed.
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Now it's easy as pie and I can pick up Jalmeri Heavenseeker as well. Heaven's Thunder sickeningly overpowered I think, but I'm going to test it in play. Then I'll adjust it as needed.
Some things I don't need to test that they are broken. Its pretty obvious...
I mean lets give a multiattacking monk more damage than a giant barbarian gets.
Divide the extra damage to one third and its still a good power.
Now it's easy as pie and I can pick up Jalmeri Heavenseeker as well. Heaven's Thunder sickeningly overpowered I think, but I'm going to test it in play. Then I'll adjust it as needed.Some things I don't need to test that they are broken. Its pretty obvious...
I mean lets give a multiattacking monk more damage than a giant barbarian gets.
Divide the extra damage to one third and its still a good power.
Did you divide it to 1/3rd to make is usable?
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Just a suggestion that brings it more inline with others powers that add extra damage. No I have not tested it.
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Since it is already a houserule - although an officially sanctioned one - you are of course free to change it to suit your purposes.
I'm trying this right now in my group just to see how much of a power increase it is. So far it appears to be substantial, but we will see in play.It is a substantial increase in character flexibility and available options. And since breadth of options and character synergy are the best ways of optimizing a party as a whole, it can be a nice boost to the overall power level of the party - especially for low character count parties.
On the other hand, it doesn't substantially increase the numerical power of any particular attack, skill, or other ability. So it doesn't require as much adjustment from the GM. Basically you can still follow the encounter building guidelines in the CRB or run encounters from published materials without additional adjustments. Things might be slightly easier for the characters, but not game breakingly so.
My feeling at the moment is it will make the game much, much easier, though not trivial. Hard to make PF2 trivial.
We had a sorcerer, monk, fighter, and rogue in this particular group. The monk has bolted on Champion Paladin. The sorcerer has bolted on bard MC. The fighter has bolted on rogue. I'm not sure what the rogue is doing yet.
So far we've added bard Inspire Courage, Paladin Champion Reaction for the monk, and Rogue Sneak attack for the dual-weapon fighter using the Aldiori Dueling sword. While choosing the ideal feats for each class and the monk has a lot of good feats, so this is particularly good for the monk.
I feel it will have a more 5E like effect than breaking the numbers. Bounded Accuracy in 5E made it so you didn't much break the numbers with MCing, but you allowed the taking of ideal low level abilities of high value classes which led to an overall increase in power and a diminishing of base classes who did not choose to multiclass.
For...
seems like your conclusion is already reached
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I feel like if you think free archetype is a bit much, try "free non-multiclass archetype". Since 100% of the examples Deriven is bringing up about this being a big power increase are about multiclass archetypes, but at my table people mostly take the other ones when they get a free one.
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seems like your conclusion is already reached
Well in another thread, he's already said it'll "increase power substantially" so...
It will increase power substantially and already has by allowing me to combine Champion's Reaction with Heaven's Thunder with no hard choice made.
The question is less about whether it increases power, but what we each see as "substantially." There is zero question that it increases power, but by how much and how will it affect the game.
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This seems to have devolved into a discussion about the power of free archetypes
The original question has already been answered but I would like to add that option 2 is the only possible answer as there a no level 2 archetype feats other than the dedication. So if they got it as level 1 then there would be nothing to take at level 2
I have seen a houserule variant to give the level 2 dedication at level 1 and then use the slot at level 2 to take a level 1 class feat. But that might have been for situations when playing without free archetype now that I think about it
Someone was theorizing that Strength of Thousands would start with the free archetype at level 1 to help with the whole entry to a magical school thing, but I have my doubts.
The default rule is definitely to get it at level 2!
For thematic campaigns, it wouldn't really hurt to get it at level 1 and say you don't get anything extra at level 2.
This seems to have devolved into a discussion about the power of free archetypes
The original question has already been answered but I would like to add that option 2 is the only possible answer as there a no level 2 archetype feats other than the dedication. So if they got it as level 1 then there would be nothing to take at level 2
I have seen a houserule variant to give the level 2 dedication at level 1 and then use the slot at level 2 to take a level 1 class feat. But that might have been for situations when playing without free archetype now that I think about it
You’re not wrong, 2nd level did make the most sense but the reason I want clarification was because of the Ancient Elf heritage, which does allow a multiclass archetype at level one.
My original intent was a better safe then sorry Q&A…not this power level discussion.
One thing I've noticed is Free Archetype doesn't seem to work for Archetypes that start at lvl 8 like Shadowdancer.
One thing I've noticed is Free Archetype doesn't seem to work for Archetypes that start at lvl 8 like Shadowdancer.
Sure it does. You just have to take a different archetype for your first three archetype feats (2, 4, and 6) then you can take the Shadowdancer dedication at 8.
Where it's tricky is when an archetype starts at 4 (like Ritualist) but you can manage it with an Archetype with a skill feat, like Herbalist (or Medic if you're a Rogue or an Investigator.)
Isn't the point of Free Archetype, just to take feats from any archetype? A large portion of the archetypes don't have feats all the way up. I'd be expecting most people to be taking 2 or 3 by level 20.
Isn't the point of Free Archetype, just to take feats from any archetype? A large portion of the archetypes don't have feats all the way up. I'd be expecting most people to be taking 2 or 3 by level 20.
I read it again. Apparently you can mix and match archetypes, so you could grab Shadowdancer at lvl 8. You get 10 free feats to pick only from Archetype feats, but must still follow the limitations.
Did not read that one close enough. So you can mix and match archetypes as long as you meet the requirements.