Gortle has a guide diving into the various twists and turns of the battle form rules.
Weapon Specialization it seems does according to one of the designers. It's an untyped damaged tied to your proficiency rank in a given attack.
I do not believe property runes apply, but RAW they aren't item bonuses. They are magic items that are always active. If you were to have an unarmed attack item with property runes that applies to unarmed attacks perhaps it would apply RAW since it is always active, affects unarmed attacks of all kinds, and isn't one of the prohibited bonuses.
I think it would more likely be absorbed into the form myself and become inert like other always active magic items. But that isn't clear at this point in time.
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If you were to have an unarmed attack item with property runes that applies to unarmed attacks perhaps it would apply RAW since it is always active, affects unarmed attacks of all kinds, and isn't one of the prohibited bonuses.
I think it's very important for this conversation to point out that these "prohibited bonuses" are not a thing for battle forms, and thus this sentence makes no sense. What is mentioned is a list of things that can adjust the special statistics provided (and I would hope we can all agree that an attack with stats provided in the form is a "special statistic" of said form)
If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted ONLY by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
Nowhere does it say those are the only bonuses and penalties that can be applied, but rather that they're the only thing that can adjust the special statistics at all. Weapon specialization is not a circumstance bonus, status bonus, or penalty. Therefore, no, it should not apply to attacks with stats listed in the form.
If, for some reason, a battle form is printed in a later book that doesn't give you an attack, or if you want to do an unarmed attack that doesn't use the form's statistics but rather your own handwraps of mighty blows, then I think the runes, weapon specialization, etc. would all apply. But at that point you're just punching something while looking like an [insert creature here].
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Gortle has a guide diving into the various twists and turns of the battle form rules.
I would be careful leaning too hard on that, since their discussion and leading argument regarding additional damage.
A) Leans on a non literal reading
B) Doesn't line up as Dragon Transformation (barbarian feat) specifically calls out rage damage as a special exception allowed because of the feat alongside other exceptions
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Gortle has a guide diving into the various twists and turns of the battle form rules.I would be careful leaning too hard on that, since their discussion and leading argument regarding additional damage.
A) Leans on a non literal reading
B) Doesn't line up as Dragon Transformation (barbarian feat) specifically calls out rage damage as a special exception allowed because of the feat alongside other exceptions
B) was just discussed in another thread.
I would love it if you would elaborate on
A) Leans on a non literal reading
Please note I am just trying to find the official or proper way to play these rules. I have changed my mind on several of these issues. I hope I am not being unreasonable.
I want criticism with substance. Its the only way to get to the truth. Or a least a reasonably workable truth.
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I do want to reply to this quote which I'm extracting out of another thread so as not to derail that thread
2) Additional damage is not a damage bonus so it adds (maybe it shouldn't but this is the guidance we have from Mark)
Though if you're gonna base that of a developer comment then you have Michael Sayre as well:
Battle forms? Is the number you're looking at granted to you by the spell? Then it can only be affected by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. It doesn't matter what the thing you're trying to add is, only that it's not one of those things.
First off I do like the irony of quoting a developer complaining about being quoted. I deliberately obstained at the time as the responses in that thread seemed too emotional.
Michael Sayre doesn't actually disagree with what I an saying on Battle Form
Then on top of that, a lot of the questions that are getting "ignored" really aren't that common as questions, they're just 10 really passionate people arguing back and forth for page after page when there are quick and reasonable rulings that may not be what one side wants but are still pretty straightforward.
Yeah I guess I must be one of those ten at least on a few issues. But the conclusions that the ten people who argue come up with do get taken up by the broader community. So to dismiss them like this is just silly. People inluence other people. The reason that some arguments drag on is often because the people involved are behaing poorly yes. I get that and it is probably the bulk of what you have to deal with. But there are still clear problems in a lot of cases. Help us to understand the correct interpretations and we will help you deal with the rest of the mob.
Battle forms? Is the number you're looking at granted to you by the spell? Then it can only be affected by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. It doesn't matter what the thing you're trying to add is, only that it's not one of those things. Is it a number you got from somewhere else, like your normal AC or attack modifier? Then it can be affected by the things that normally affect those statistics, including item bonuses from handwraps of mighty blows and whatever other effects you have that normally change that number or are called out in the effect that let you take on the form. Half the confusion on this front is specifically because Mark gave an "unofficial" answer outside of the FAQ and errata process that ended up being thrown around to muddy the waters, which is exactly why official answers like that are kept to FAQ and errata releases by policy.
Which confirms my interpretation that the special statistics in the battle form is everything mentioned with a number.
Further that item bonuses from handwraps of mighty blows do count when working out your own attack bonus to factor into a battle form.But sheds no like on additional damage except to complain that Mark was quoted on his response.
If you don't like what you have said go back and change it or issue a retraction. We can cope. I really don't understand the reticence of Paizo in this regard. It is Ok to make mistakes and fix them.
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I suspect the developers themselves have not reached a consensus on how they think it should go. It's the only reason I can think of why they would remain silent on such a monumental issue for so long.
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Gortle has a guide diving into the various twists and turns of the battle form rules.I would be careful leaning too hard on that, since their discussion and leading argument regarding additional damage.
A) Leans on a non literal reading
B) Doesn't line up as Dragon Transformation (barbarian feat) specifically calls out rage damage as a special exception allowed because of the feat alongside other exceptions
I disagree with Gortle on some of his conclusions.
But, to be fair, he tried REALLY hard to present all sides of the arguments and to be fair to all sides. Given that he is a human being, I don't think he totally succeeded in not letting his own biases show through but he obviously DID try really hard and also obviously DID largely succeed.
His guide is very much worth reading. Although parts of it are, IMHO, wrong :-) :-). But it is by far the best summary of the issues that exists.
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It does seem like a good FAQ candidate. Regardless of how obvious the answer might seem to some people, it's a question I've seen come up with some degree of frequency in a lot of different settings.
There are some broader questions about polymorphing I see come up that'd be nice to get clearer responses on too, but an FAQ on additional damage and battle forms could literally be as little as two letters long (three, if they rule the other way).
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There are alot of Ancestries that have resistances (poison, cold and fire seem to be popular), I wonder if those carry over into battle forms? By RAW I suspect yes unless the battle form specifies particular resistances. By the same token, I wonder if the Druid's Poison Resistance feat works in a battle form.
Does it change a number in the form spell?
If yes: it doesn't work.
If no: it works.
That's my interpretation too.
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There are alot of Ancestries that have resistances (poison, cold and fire seem to be popular), I wonder if those carry over into battle forms? By RAW I suspect yes unless the battle form specifies particular resistances. By the same token, I wonder if the Druid's Poison Resistance feat works in a battle form.
Some GMs will say it is related to the physiology of your original form, and say no it is overwritten by polymoprh.
Others will say you keep it as it is not affected by the battle form.
Likewise with special senses.
What about the Goblin Ankle Bite reaction attack. Do you keep that - your natural goblin bite attack is clearly goone but your new form may well have a bite attack? It might make sense
Lots of little questions GMs just have to guess on.
My preference is to keep it by default, unless it is really impractical for the new form. But that is just a preference based on attitude not any specific rule.
Not to mention things like Power attack, sneak attack or things that don't modify numbers per say, but are variations of your basic strike action, which you have as a battle form.
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I suspect the developers themselves have not reached a consensus on how they think it should go. It's the only reason I can think of why they would remain silent on such a monumental issue for so long.
I think it actually probably relates to them waiting to release Errata and FAQ drops in BIG chunks based on how it's been done recently. I anticipate any and all such updates to NEVER be simply created and released to address even one BOOK let alone issue.
Does it change a number in the form spell?
If yes: it doesn't work.
If no: it works.
Some things are allowed to change the numbers in the spell though.
A Druid with multiclass Barbarian archetype for example. Cast Wild Shape to polymorph into an Animal Form battle form, then Rage.
Polymorph doesn't prevent Rage since Rage is not a spell, does not require speaking, and is not a manipulate action.
Rage applies an untyped bonus to damage. It is debatable whether that would affect the numbers in the Animal Form. By RAW, probably not. However, the temporary HP does get added, as does the AC penalty.
It is that last one that I am wanting to point out. Penalties are still applied to the numbers from the battle form polymorph effects. As are circumstance bonuses and status bonuses.
Thus Rage gives you some nice penalties for no gain. Which is mildly hilarious.
Well, you would still get the temp HP. Not saying that this is a good idea to actually build a character around. Just saying that it isn't possible to have a quick rule-of-thumb that is going to work in all cases.
For examples of things that would actually be an improvement and would work:
Take Cover. Since cover provides a circumstance bonus to AC, it is allowed while in a polymorph battle form.
Forbidding Ward. Someone else will have to cast it on you, but since it is a status bonus to AC, it is also allowed.
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Rage applies an untyped bonus to damage.There are no untyped bonuses. It gives additional damage, which would adjust the statistics, and is not of a type that is allowed.
Unlike bonuses, penalties can also be untypedThus Rage gives you some nice penalties for no gain. Which is mildly hilarious.
The statistic granted by the battle form isn't your total/final damage, it is a specific amount of damage given as a number of dice plus a static value. If you don't modify the damage dice or the flat modifier then you aren't modifying the statistic, therefore additional damage (which is a separate part of the final damage calculation formula, not a modification of your damage bonus) is not modifying a granted statistic. Same with critical hits, sneak attack, and property runes.
This ambiguity/variety of interpretation is exactly why there should be clarification on battle forms. The definition of statistic is incredibly vague as to what it covers.