Sure. There is room for a Basic Trikery feat, and plenty of good ones to take. When I iterate around with builds I sometimes forget prequisites. The tools are better but they are all slower at exploring concepts than a simple text editor.
I'm not a super fan of flurry myself, I much prefer reach options because of ability to just take other actions. But it is mathematically superior under certain assumptions.
Lets not forget at those levels you are often boosted with a haste, which you do need to set up these 3 action powers some times. But a flurry build can turn that into yet another good attack.
Sure. There is room for a Basic Trikery feat, and plenty of good ones to take. When I iterate around with builds I sometimes forget prequisites. The tools are better but they are all slower at exploring concepts than a simple text editor.
I'm not a super fan of flurry myself, I much prefer reach options because of ability to just take other actions. But it is mathematically superior under certain assumptions.
Lets not forget at those levels you are often boosted with a haste, which you do need to set up these 3 action powers some times. But a flurry build can turn that into yet another good attack.
You need Haste for Impossible Flurry to happen consistently. Especially if you want Flanking bonus for Sneak Attack.
I would put Familiar Master Dedication instead of Swashbuckler, to get an Independent Manual Dexterity Familiar for free Haste at round 1. Your build will be less dependent on other party members and their initiative rolls.Also, you speak of level 18, but you need level 19 for Swift Prey. Without it, Impossible Flurry becomes even more of a dream, as you'll only be able to trigger it against bosses.
Anyway, I really prefer Precision for Rangers. With a Bow, optimized Precision builds outdamage Optimized Flurry builds even with 3 actions. With melee weapons, Flurry wins for 3 actions, but it asks for so many conditions that I find these builds more theoretical than practical.
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Use a (spiked?) gauntlet and light hammer. Buy 100 haste potions at level 18. Start each combat with one in your hand and use it r1. No need for familiar master.
But yes, Flurry is not good. People underestimate just how hard it is to use impossible flurry, I’ve seen it in play. Starting the turn next to your hunted target (and them having enough HP) just doesn’t happen a lot. Being hasted makes it easier but it’s still a small return for the investment.
Optimal flurry uses fangwire temple sword and maneuvers.
I prefer using precision, but even that isn’t great, it gets outscaled by bow fighter at dealing damage. Hence why I recommend support bow precision, because the fighter can’t be a support bow build.
Use a (spiked?) gauntlet and light hammer. Buy 100 haste potions at level 18. Start each combat with one in your hand and use it r1. No need for familiar master.
It costs you one action when the Famliar does it for free.
I prefer using precision, but even that isn’t great, it gets outscaled by bow fighter at dealing damage. Hence why I recommend support bow precision, because the fighter can’t be a support bow build.
Precision Ranger is definitely a versatile build. If you just want to deal damage, I agree with you that it's far from ideal.
But if you're looking for a versatile build, Precision Bow Ranger is among the top one. You have one or 2 available actions every round. It's among the best martial gishes in the game as you can cast spells without losing on your martial damage output.
Optimal flurry uses fangwire temple sword and maneuvers.
Is the idea here to use your MAP-0 attack with a maneuver and then attack with your flurry strikes?
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Use a (spiked?) gauntlet and light hammer. Buy 100 haste potions at level 18. Start each combat with one in your hand and use it r1. No need for familiar master.It costs you one action when the Famliar does it for free.
I prefer using precision, but even that isn’t great, it gets outscaled by bow fighter at dealing damage. Hence why I recommend support bow precision, because the fighter can’t be a support bow build.Precision Ranger is definitely a versatile build. If you just want to deal damage, I agree with you that it's far from ideal.
But if you're looking for a versatile build, Precision Bow Ranger is among the top one. You have one or 2 available actions every round. It's among the best martial gishes in the game as you can cast spells without losing on your martial damage output.
The familiar feeding it to you for free with independent? It can’t activate the item as per p604 so that doesn’t work. It handing it to you for free is equivalent to just starting with it drawn.
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Is the idea here to use your MAP-0 attack with a maneuver and then attack with your flurry strikes?
Optimal flurry uses fangwire temple sword and maneuvers.
Or the other way around, it doesn’t matter. Because your weapon is the one doing the maneuver as per the trip/grapple trait, your MAP reduction applies.
I mis-spoke when I said temple sword as well. I meant Kukri, as it is agile+trip, and the fangwire is agile+grapple. Your hit bonus is better than a fighter for that because you can get legendary athletics combined with your MAP reduction.
The familiar feeding it to you for free with independent? It can’t activate the item as per p604 so that doesn’t work. It handing it to you for free is equivalent to just starting with it drawn.
"A potion is a magical liquid activated when you drink it, which uses it up."
Potions are activated by the recipient, not by the Familiar. If the Familiar can feed you the potion, it's fine.
The familiar feeding it to you for free with independent? It can’t activate the item as per p604 so that doesn’t work. It handing it to you for free is equivalent to just starting with it drawn."A potion is a magical liquid activated when you drink it, which uses it up."
Potions are activated by the recipient, not by the Familiar.
"You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature."
"You can activate a potion with an Interact action as you drink it or feed it to another creature."The familiar feeding it to you for free with independent? It can’t activate the item as per p604 so that doesn’t work. It handing it to you for free is equivalent to just starting with it drawn."A potion is a magical liquid activated when you drink it, which uses it up."
Potions are activated by the recipient, not by the Familiar.
This sentence doesn't contradict the previous one. It just details the most classical ways of using it. But if you drink a potion, whatever the way it got into your mouth, it gets activated.
Lets not forget at those levels you are often boosted with a haste, which you do need to set up these 3 action powers some times. But a flurry build can turn that into yet another good attack.
You need Haste for Impossible Flurry to happen consistently. Especially if you want Flanking bonus for Sneak Attack.
I would put Familiar Master Dedication instead of Swashbuckler, to get an Independent Manual Dexterity Familiar for free Haste at round 1. Your build will be less dependent on other party members and their initiative rolls.
Mounts can give you a free prepositioning move as well. So hasted and on an Independent Mount is probably the the best scenario. 7 strikes. I don't see it as that hard to do at that level. The main problem is running out of live targets.
Lets not forget at those levels you are often boosted with a haste, which you do need to set up these 3 action powers some times. But a flurry build can turn that into yet another good attack.
You need Haste for Impossible Flurry to happen consistently. Especially if you want Flanking bonus for Sneak Attack.
I would put Familiar Master Dedication instead of Swashbuckler, to get an Independent Manual Dexterity Familiar for free Haste at round 1. Your build will be less dependent on other party members and their initiative rolls.
Mounts can give you a free prepositioning move as well. So hasted and on an Independent Mount is probably the the best scenario. 7 strikes. I don't see it as that hard to do at that level. The main problem is running out of live targets.
That's what I found to be a problem as well. I only made it to level 11 I think. With haste was getting up to 5 attacks. I had a Power Attack Great Weapon fighter in the group, so it was at times pretty pointless to flurry. You hit a lot. You crit a lot. You could build up the single hit damage pretty well. But the thing would die with multiple characters hitting it and you had these extra wasted attacks. Ranger feels that way at times for almost any ranger since you have to use Hunt Prey to gain your advantage which is an action tax for many levels.
Though I do have a lot of fun playing rangers because of the overall package. Rangers may not be optimal, but they are sure fun with some cool builds.
I played a dual weapon fighter/Marshal Archetype with Dread Marshal stance. That seemed to do more damage on a round by round basis than the flurry ranger. Easier to set up Double Slice.
The familiar feeding it to you for free with independent? It can’t activate the item as per p604 so that doesn’t work. It handing it to you for free is equivalent to just starting with it drawn.
Also, to end this discussion about Familiars: Familiars are no Animals, they can be Animals. The rules are quite clear:
"Most familiars were originally animals" so some were not."You can choose a Tiny animal" so you can choose something else.
"Some familiars are different, usually described in the ability that granted you a familiar".
Interesting, let's look at Familiar Master:
"You have forged a mystical bond with a creature. This might have involved complex rituals and invocations, such as meditating under the moon until something crept out of the forest. Or maybe you just did each other a good turn, such as rescuing the beast from a trap or a foe, and then being rescued in turn. Whatever the details, you are now comrades until the end. You gain a familiar. If you already have a familiar, you gain the Enhanced Familiar feat."
It speaks of a creature and of a beast in the examples. Beast without capital B, but Familiar rules speak of animal without the capital A, so it doesn't hold less water.
And if you look at the description of Familiar Master:
"From the wise owl perched on the wizard's shoulder to the crafty gremlin that serves the witch for their own reasons, the ghastly homunculus in the alchemist's lab to the clever monkey that picks the lock of the thief's cell, familiars have always served"
So, it's a bunch of fluff text and can't be used as rules, but it gives an information about the intent. Only 2 of these familiars are animals, the other 2 are impossible to get right now if we apply your ruling.
So neither RAW nor RAI supports your ruling of Familiars from Familiar Master having to be Animals. As such the rule from page 604 only applies to some Familiars.
Well, looking at p. 604:
"These items have the companion trait, meaning they function only for animal companions, familiars, and similar creatures. Normally these are the only items a companion can use. Other items can qualify, at the GM's discretion, but an animal can never Activate an Item."
So it mentions companions and define it as animal companions, familiars and similar creatures and then say that normally they can only use companion items but the GM chooses. So already here you'll have a hard time it's fully RAW that they can use potions.
RAI is always very hard to discern as an individual but I think it is more vague. Is the use of animal meant as a stand-in for companion or is it meant that animals specifically perhaps doesn't have the intelligence to activate items?
Well, looking at p. 604:
"These items have the companion trait, meaning they function only for animal companions, familiars, and similar creatures. Normally these are the only items a companion can use. Other items can qualify, at the GM's discretion, but an animal can never Activate an Item."
So it mentions companions and define it as animal companions, familiars and similar creatures and then say that normally they can only use companion items but the GM chooses. So already here you'll have a hard time it's fully RAW that they can use potions.
RAI is always very hard to discern as an individual but I think it is more vague. Is the use of animal meant as a stand-in for companion or is it meant that animals specifically perhaps doesn't have the intelligence to activate items?
True.
My previous message was about the Animal tag, as it's the only one directly preventing a Familiar from activating an item. If the Familiar is an Animal, then RAW is clear. If it's not an Animal, it's grey. Clearly, it's up to the GM, but that's the case for most Familiar rules.Actually, Manual Dexterity doesn't state much besides the ability to use Manipulate actions like if you have hands. One can easily argue that it doesn't do anything, as the GM still has to choose what the Familiar can and can't do.
Familiars rules are open to a lot of interpretation.
You convinced me that my statement was not well written. As it's up to the GM, but not directly contradicting RAW, I should have issued a warning when giving this piece of advice.
Another Build: An indoor cavalier
There is only one character that can ride a size medium mount and go basically everywhere normal characters can go mounted. That is the Sprite. All other characters are left riding weak mounts. This mounted build can be done with other classes, but I like the Ranger as it has the best bonuses to boost the companion. They gain the Precise Strike feature, and Benefit from Monster Hunter (as do all your allies). Recall knowledge is not used as much as it should be. This build gets it as a free action, may get another bonus, and from level 10 can recall knowledge on all creatures with Nature and Wisdom. So no investment in other skills or Intelligence required.
In pure damage terms not a super powered build. But permanent Flanking from level 12 without having to expose yourselves is nice, so your Corgi will be effective in combat all the way up. As a team it is competitive.
Rules issues: the Corgi is taken as Wolf Animal Companion which explicitly includes all Cannines. We know that the Corgi has the mount trait. So this works.
Also I am mixing Ranger animal companion Feats and Beast Master. It is not really necessary but it gets you the feats a bit faster and avoids the collision at level 10.
Note that I could just build this character Dex based with Finesse weapons. In which case use a spiked chain/bladed scarf
Heritage Sprite Melixie
Ancestry Feats:
1 Evanescent Wings not Corgi Mount
5 Animal Speaker
9 Energize Wings
13 Invisible Trickster
17 Hero's Wings
Background:
Squire. (Athletics skill, Heraldry Lore skill, Armor Assist skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Incredible Initiative
7 Toughness
11 Incredible Scout
15 Canny Acumen to cover that Will Save
19 True Perception
Class Feats:
1 Animal Companion
2 Beastmaster Dedication
4 Mature Beastmaster Companion
6 Disrupt Prey
8 Incredible Beastmaster's Companion
10 Master Monster Hunter
12 Side by Side (Ranger)
14 Specialized Beastmaster Companion
16 Specialized Beastmaster Companion
18 Lead the Pack or Specialized Beastmaster Companion if you want it
20 Legendary Monster Hunter
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18 (strong enough to carry his mount if required)
Dex+2 14
Con+1 12
Int-1 8
Wis+2 14
Cha+0 10
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+4 18
Con+4 18
Int+1 12
Wis+5 20
Cha+2 14
Animal Companions
Corgi (Wolf)
1 Str +2, Dex +3, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +1, Cha +0, Trained Saving Throws, Barding, Unarmed Def, Unarmed Att, Survival, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics
4 Str +3, Dex +4, Con +3, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +0, Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Perception; Trained Barding, Unarmed Def, Unarmed Att,Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
8 Nimble Str +4, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0, Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Acrobatics, Perception, Unarmed Def; Trained Barding, Unarmed Att, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
14 Daredevil Str +4, Dex +7, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0, Master Unarmed Def, Acrobatics; Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Perception; Trained Barding, Unarmed Att, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
16 Ambusher Str +4, Dex +8, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0, Master Unarmed Def, Acrobatics; Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Stealth, Perception; Trained Barding, Unarmed Att, Athletics, Intimidation
A second Corgi with a pack strapped to its back.
Skills:
Nature
Survival
Medicine
Society (Corgis can go into palaces so we better have the basic etiquitte sorted out)
Stealth
Athletics
Heraldry Lore skill
By level 20
Trained: Diplomacy, Society, Stealth, Heraldry Lore
Expert: Athletics, Medicine
Master:
Legendary: Nature, Survival
Languages: Common, Sylvan + all animals(level 5)
Skill Feats:
BG Armor Assist
2 Continual Recovery
4 Titan Wrestler
6 Battle Medicine
8 Ward Medic
10 Trick Magic Item
12 Courtly Graces
14 Influence Nature
16 Experienced Tracker
18 Legendary Guide
20 Hefty Hauler
Equipment:
Breastplate
Belt of Giant Strength
Goggles of Night (Major)
Halberd (remember your reduced reach)
Short Bow
Lance and Shield for formal occasions. Light Hammer and Dagger for backup
Horseshoes of Speed
Barding of the Zephyr
Blaster Wizard
Gnome Wizard (Evocation, Spell Blending)
Ancestry/General feats:
- Unexpected Shift
- Armor Proficiency at low level, retrained at level 13
- Adopted Ancestry
- Multitalented for Sorcerer Dedication
- Fortuitous Shift
Class feats:
2: Beastmaster Dedication
4: Mature Beastmaster Companion
6: Spell Penetration
8: Advanced School Spell (Elemental Tempest)
10: Dangerous Sorcery
12: Quickened Casting
14: Bonded Focus
Here is a comparison between a Greatsword Dragon Barbarian making 3 attacks and this build casting a 2d6 per level spell.
So, the goal of this build is to maximize elemental damage output. To achieve this goal, you combine Elemental Tempest with an Elemental spell. Against a single target, you are extremely competitive in terms of damage output. And all these effects are AoE, so you can get to crazy damage if you start affecting multiple monsters.
The Beastmaster Dedication is there to give you a mount to move as a free action, as Elemental Tempest + 2-action spell costs you your 3 actions.
The only drawback is the range of Elemental Tempest (10ft.). That's why I go for Fortuitous Shift, to actually save my Wizards butt if he gets targeted. This build is better used if you have a Champion in the party.
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The Beastmaster Dedication is there to give you a mount to move as a free action.
Note that this will not work at all tables as it is unclear whether or not a ridden animal companion can move as its independent action (the rules for familiars/animal companion contradict those for mounts and in practice GMs DO rule differently on this)
Note that this will not work at all tables as it is unclear whether or not a ridden animal companion can move as its independent action (the rules for familiars/animal companion contradict those for mounts and in practice GMs DO rule differently on this)
The Beastmaster Dedication is there to give you a mount to move as a free action.
I see what you mean, but specific wins over general, so the rules about Mature Companions stating that they take an action even if you don't Command them trumps the general Mounted Combat rules. I don't see much of an issue here.
Note that this will not work at all tables as it is unclear whether or not a ridden animal companion can move as its independent action (the rules for familiars/animal companion contradict those for mounts and in practice GMs DO rule differently on this)
The Beastmaster Dedication is there to give you a mount to move as a free action.
Well they really should stop it as they are wrong. Its a very poor interpretation that makes a power useless. If they give you grief then use Cavalier instead of Beastmaster. Impressive Mount is crystal clear and leaves no wriggle room for that argument.
I'd do a Sorcerer like this. But then again this is not super focused on damage.
This is an simple primal sorcerer. The real strength of this build is the excellent Nymph Blinding Beauty and Razzle Dazzle. There is a nice fit between the excellent area based will control spells that the Nymph has with the Primal Spell list. Which is just all around excellent. Finally there is the One for All reaction for huge circumstance bonuses to everything.
Its very nice, but she will need a party to protect her.
Heritage Chameleon Gnome
Ancestry Feats:
1 Razzle Dazzle
5 Cooperative Nature
9 Multitalented - Wit Swasbuckler.
13 Empathic Plea
17 Instinctive Obfuscation
Background:
Ward. (Performance skill, Genealogy Lore skill, Fascinating Performance skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Adopted Ancestry Human (retrained from initial Armor Proficiency)
7 Ancestral Paragon Animal Accomplice
11 Toughness
15 Incredible Initiative
19 Fleet
Class Feats:
2 Dangerous Sorcery
4 Primal Evolution
6 Advanced Bloodline
8 Crossblooded Evolution
10 One for All
12 Blood Component Substitution
14 Bloodline Focus
16 Greater Vital Evolution
18 Effortless Concentration
20 Bloodline Perfection
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str-1 8
Dex+3 16
Con+2 14
Int+0 10
Wis+1 12
Cha+4 18
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+0 10
Dex+5 20
Con+5 20
Int+1 12
Wis+4 18
Cha+7 24
Skills:
Diplomacy,
Nature
Survival
Performance
Society
Genealogy Lore skill
By level 20
Trained: Nature, Society, Survival, Performance Genealogy Lore
Expert: Acrobatics
Master:
Legendary: Diplomacy, Stealth
Languages: Common, Gnome
Skill Feats:
BG Fascinating Performance
2 Bon Mot
4 Courtly Graces
6 Glad-Hand
8 Quiet Allies
10 Trick Magic Item
12 Entourage
14 Shameless Request
16 Legendary Negotiation
18 Swift Sneak
20 No Cause for Alarm
Equipment:
Explorer's Clothing
Circlet of Persuasion
Goggles of Night (Major)
Sling
Dagger
Small size Ancestry ... 5: Ageless Patience
Ageless Patience is an elf feat, and elves are Medium. But it also doesn't seem to be an integral part of the build.
1: Alchemical Familiar (Valet + whatever)
"Whatever" has to be Manual Dexterity, since Interact has the Manipulate trait, no?
I wouldn't put an Alchemist in an optimized 4-character party, but I'd definitely consider adding one in a 5+-character party in a campaign with short adventuring days (like PFS). Especially if the party lacks some important but secondary roles (skill monkey, secondary healer, Knowledge dispenser, non magical range attacker).
I've mentioned this in various Great Alchemist Debate threads, but I absolutely agree that an optimized alchemist ends up being the "backup everything" character that's actually disproportionately good for PFS and not disproportionately bad for APs.
I've mentioned this in various Great Alchemist Debate threads, but I absolutely agree that an optimized alchemist ends up being the "backup everything" character that's actually disproportionately good for PFS and not disproportionately bad for APs.
Would it be possible to expand on this? A player in my group is an alchemist, and is having a little trouble with it.
This build is for a fearsome leader who wields two weapons.
The goal is maximizing attacks: regular and MAPless as well as damage per attack with a bit of utility worked in.
You'll focus on Double Slice with Sawthooth Sabers providing you a source of circumstance damage to stack with your status damage from Dread Marshal Aura. You might also pick up fearsome brute since when you crit, you make the enemy Frightened 1 which will eventually be a constant +3 circumstance bonus to damage.
By lvl 10 you'll get one AoO and one Champion's Reaction per round should you need it. At lvl 20 you get a reaction for Champion's Reaction or AoO every enemy's turn.
If you get Free Archetype, I highly recommend rogue with sneak attack with free archetype to get Sneak Attack and Opportune Riposte.
You can mix and match weapons as you wish. I chose Sawtooth Sabers because I like having multiple ways to gain a circumstance bonus to damage and I like flat-footing targets on crits which obviates flanking and helps even casters hit. But most of it will work with nearly any weapon combination as Fearsome Brute will often get you circumstance bonus to damage against many creatures.
Half-elf Fighter
1st: Double Slice
2nd: Marshall Dedication
4th: Dread Marshall Stance
6th: Steal Yourself.
8th: Take something and Retrain Champion’s Reaction after lvl 9
10th: Combat Reflexes
12th: Fearsome Brute
14th: Two-weapon Flurry
16th: Agile Grace
18th: Graceful Poise
20th: Boundless Reprisals
Ancestry:
1st: Elf Atavism: Cavern Elf
5th: Unconventional Weaponry: Sawtooth Sabers
9th: Multitalented (Champion Multiclass Dedication)
13th: Pinch Time
17th: Pick what you want
General:
3rd: Fleet
7th: Toughness
11th: Ancestral Paragon
15th: Canny Acumen (Reflexes)
19th: Diehard
For me builds like this highlight the synergy issue:
If you have reactions like AoO and Champions Retributive Strike, and you investing in Combat Reflexes - then you really need reach to make them sing and dance.
The feats are all still good by themselves. It is just the cumulative synergy effect is really missing.
So I would be using a scorpion whip, and say a light hammer as my two weapons here. AND/OR make sure I can get Enlarge spell cast on me.
If you really want to go with the extra damage of the saw twooth blades, thats fine, but your reactions are just not going to fire as much so you want to weight your options differently. Probably a different Champions reaction - that can work outside your reach is a better call.
Thinking about Trip and Prone options would help too.
Taking Champions Reaction as a level 8 feat with your qualification not arriving till level 9 is not valid. Even with retraining. You'll have to take it at level 10 or 12 instead.
Small size Ancestry ... 5: Ageless PatienceAgeless Patience is an elf feat, and elves are Medium. But it also doesn't seem to be an integral part of the build.
1: Alchemical Familiar (Valet + whatever)"Whatever" has to be Manual Dexterity, since Interact has the Manipulate trait, no?
I wouldn't put an Alchemist in an optimized 4-character party, but I'd definitely consider adding one in a 5+-character party in a campaign with short adventuring days (like PFS). Especially if the party lacks some important but secondary roles (skill monkey, secondary healer, Knowledge dispenser, non magical range attacker).I've mentioned this in various Great Alchemist Debate threads, but I absolutely agree that an optimized alchemist ends up being the "backup everything" character that's actually disproportionately good for PFS and not disproportionately bad for APs.
You can take Ageless Patience through Adopted Ancestry.
Manual Dexterity gives you the ability to make Manipulate actions as if you had hands. But a Familiar can make Manipulate actions without Manual Dexterity.
I agree that an Alchemist can be good, especially in PFS. But I disagree that it's disproportionately good. And clearly, in an AP, I would pass.
I know the Alchemist good enough to make it work, but it doesn't make the Alchemist a Tier S class (as we are speaking optimized builds, I think Tier 1 is the minimum).
I've mentioned this in various Great Alchemist Debate threads, but I absolutely agree that an optimized alchemist ends up being the "backup everything" character that's actually disproportionately good for PFS and not disproportionately bad for APs.Would it be possible to expand on this? A player in my group is an alchemist, and is having a little trouble with it.
Briefly, in the classic setup (fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard), the alchemist is going to be a worse striker than the fighter, have fewer skills than the rogue, can't heal as well as the cleric, and can't buff/debuff as well as a wizard. So in situations where you have someone dedicated to doing those tasks, alchemists struggle.
But if any of those were missing, alchemist can fill in as a backup, and its infused reagents feature makes it very versatile.
There are a lot of alchemist threads, and many of them have some very good advice and some very good builds (among a sea of stupid criticisms). I can't immediately find any of them, but several of the posters here - Exocist, Gortle, Superbidi - are names I recognize as having some really good ideas on building alchemists.
Edit: Also, read my paragraph below to Superbidi.
Manual Dexterity gives you the ability to make Manipulate actions as if you had hands. But a Familiar can make Manipulate actions without Manual Dexterity.
If so, what would Manual Dexterity allow a familiar to do that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do?
I agree that an Alchemist can be good, especially in PFS. But I disagree that it's disproportionately good. And clearly, in an AP, I would pass.
I meant disproportionate to its overall ranking.
The terminology in these optimization threads is always a bit weak, so I'll clarify. I think the word "optimization" is often used in an absolute sense, like, "what is the best class out of all the classes." But there's also relative optimization, or, "what is the best this class can be". These threads tend to be focused on the former, but the latter is useful as well.
There's also situational optimization, meaning "what else does this class perform the best, even including externalities." For example, an optimized rogue includes a second melee combatant to give flanking. Not part of the exact build, but important to note - a rogue can't really shine unless they have a reliable way of getting sneak attack. So trip build + rogue = something greater than the sum of their parts, and bottled lightning + rogue = something greater than the sum of their parts.
There's also a behavioral component to optimization. In the alchemist's case, if a player takes an A+ build and tries to throw three bombs/round, it's not going to perform very well. So it's not simply a function of constructing an "optimized" character and putting it on autopilot.
In many of the alchemist threads, there's a conflation of the multiple meanings. "Fighters can throw alchemist bombs better than the alchemist" is an example of absolute optimization. If your key criterion is to be able to throw bombs, don't be a bomber (weird to say, but true). In the same vein, what I'm saying is that if you really want to have fun playing an alchemist, you have to seek out situations in which the alchemist is going to have more fun, and that's going to be places where the proverbial fifth wheel is going to be welcomed.
I don't know what all your tiers mean, so I'll just pretend it's a Yelp review: I think the "best alchemist that an alchemist can be" is maybe 3 stars overall, but broken down further, 4 stars in PFS and 2 stars in APs.
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Where can I find Paizo’s rework of Heaven’s Thunder?
Special cases:
1. If used, Heaven's Thunder is assumed to work according to Paizo's suggested rework.
Took me a while to find but you can see some suggested fixes on the arcane mark discord
Including any of the following
1) Make it a focus spell (and the feat gives a focus point)
2) Make it one of of the two damage types, chosen when you use the ability (so its only half level to damage)
3) Make it one of each damage type per weapon damage dice.
4) Make it only apply to only one attack
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If so, what would Manual Dexterity allow a familiar to do that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do?
I don't think anyone really knows the answer to this question. When the CRB was printed, Manual Dexterity was competing against other weak master abilities like Amphibious, Climber, Darkvision, Tough and Resistance. You could point at those and say "Manual Dex is mostly a non-combat flavour ability that's useful to help your familiar pick up keys that are left unattended or whatever". With the APG, there's been some more useful familiar abilities like Independent, Valet and Partner in Crime.
So what is the intention of the feat? I prefer to take the most restrictive interpretation (It literally just lets the familiar pick up stuff, not activate items - which it also can't do RAW otherwise you would have a lot of exploits with Horn of Blasting familiars and whatnot) when theorycrafting, obviously work it out with your GM if you're playing not PFS.
If so, what would Manual Dexterity allow a familiar to do that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do?
Familiars are a lot "up to the GM". The rules are quite vague. So, on paper, you can say that Manual Dexterity doesn't open any action. But it's quite wrong, as depending on the situation, there are cases where hands are handy.
I personally allow Manual Dexterity Familiars to feed Potions and Elixirs, as Lab Assistant strongly hints that Familiars can use some Alchemical Items and as Bombs and Poisons are not usable as they are/use weapons, I only see Elixirs available.It's up to the GM, but currently, I haven't seen a GM getting opposed to this (and I play PFS).
If so, what would Manual Dexterity allow a familiar to do that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do?Familiars are a lot "up to the GM". The rules are quite vague. So, on paper, you can say that Manual Dexterity doesn't open any action. But it's quite wrong, as depending on the situation, there are cases where hands are handy.
I personally allow Manual Dexterity Familiars to feed Potions and Elixirs, as Lab Assistant strongly hints that Familiars can use some Alchemical Items and as Bombs and Poisons are not usable as they are/use weapons, I only see Elixirs available.
It's up to the GM, but currently, I haven't seen a GM getting opposed to this (and I play PFS).
Given how weak familiars on in this edition, I don't see why this would disrupt anything.
** spoiler omitted **
And it still gets trashed by a level 24 enemy.
God I love this edition!
So easy for the GM to tailor their game to the needs of their table (be it extreme grit survival horror, monty haul superheroes, or anything in between).
So what is the intention of the feat? I prefer to take the most restrictive interpretation (It literally just lets the familiar pick up stuff, not activate items - which it also can't do RAW otherwise you would have a lot of exploits with Horn of Blasting familiars and whatnot) when theorycrafting, obviously work it out with your GM if you're playing not PFS.I agree.
Or else would be mandatory stuff on some sort of quickened condition for specific tasks ( potions/elixirs ) at no cost ( 1 familiar feat, which would probably be an ancestry one ).
And I'd like to point out that even a familiar able to pick up stuff and bring it to people is extremely good in terms of action managemnt.
Not having that possibility, would require the characters to use more actions. So, even without the item activation, is still very strong.( even in terms of comparison with the quickened status ).
First, potions are not "at no cost". And a Familiar can't hold many of them without the GM to be super nice. So it's more a once per fight ability that cost money and a feat, it's far from mandatory or super strong.
But the major point would remain "who in the would would not take a familiar with manual dexterity to benefit from this, since there's nothing equal to it?"
Off course there is: Mounts. Mounts give you one extra Stride per round. That's way stronger. Still, not everyone takes a mount...
Getting a Familiar is nowhere close to free. It costs you one feat, from a Dedication, so it doesn't go into that many builds. It's weak if the enemy decides to kill it. And yes, there are a few Ancestries that can take it for an Ancestry feat, but so few.So, I disagree with you. If I could, I'd take it for many builds. But it's too expensive for most of them. And playing a Gnome or a Ratfolk isn't exactly stellar.
Familiar can be achieved through an ancestry feat ( or a general feat + ancestry feat if your base ancestry doesn't allow it ).
Adopted Ancestry + an Ancestry feat gives you a first level feat or a second level Dedication. So it's still pretty high for a cost.
Leaving apart that if you don't invest on it, you are going to see your mount die because of aoe or even a direct attack.
Not much of an argument when we are speaking of 5hp/level Familiars.
Personally, I have seen how it worked with the herbalist dedication and how would have worked without the possibility to "administer" a dose, but simply pass the elixir ( 1 action for the given character, a free hand, maybe another action to take the grip back or extract the weapon again, and so on ). I am not really a fan of mandatory stuff.
I'd not call that "mandatory stuff" but an enabler. The same way you can't play a two-weapon Fighter without Double Slice, playing a Herbalist without a Familiar will make the investment not worth it.
And Elixirs are balanced around 1-action administration (you can see with Elixirs of Life that heal half the amount of Heal), so I think it is intended in terms of balance.And when you add Lab Assistant, that is unusable if the Familiar can't use Alchemical Items, considering that Lab Assistant asks for Manual Dexterity, I read a strong intention for Familiars to be able to use Elixirs.
But intent is impossible to know without a dev comment.
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Completely compensated by your small dice. My Fighter actually does more damage per hit than your Barbarian. You just deal more damage on criticals, but not incredibly more as my Fighter as Deadly d10 attacks.Anyway, talking about a lvl 16 character, I say that a barbarian with reckless abandon is way better.You'd be surprised. The damage should be the same between both builds (I'll check when I get access to Citricking's tool), but Reckless Abandon has a steep cost.Kinda weird given the extra damage from the barbarian rage.
Weapons would obviously be pick and light pick, on a double slice attack.
What about adding Investigator MC dedication to your Fighter Monk MC Alchemist MC mix?
Wield a Greatpick and Power Attack with it if you know you are going to crit. Otherwise, use the Flurry.
I haven't done the math, but I believe it is even higher damage than critting with the Flurry (both Greatpick and unarmed with Greater Striking rune of course).
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Another Build: An indoor cavalier
Updated to get the prerequisites right.
Sprite Knight
There is only one character that can ride a size medium mount and go basically everywhere normal characters can go mounted. That is the Sprite. All other characters are left riding weak mounts. This mounted build can be done with other classes, but I like the Ranger as it has the best bonuses to boost the companion. They gain the Precise Strike feature, and Benefit from Monster Hunter (as do all your allies). Recall knowledge is not used as much as it should be. This build gets it as a free action, may get another bonus, and from level 10 can recall knowledge on all creatures with Nature and Wisdom. So no investment in other skills or Intelligence required.
In pure damage terms not a super powered build. But permanent Flanking from level 12 without having to expose yourselves is nice, so your Corgi will be effective in combat all the way up. As a team it is competitive.
Rules issues: the Corgi is taken as Wolf Animal Companion which explicitly includes all Cannines. We know that the Corgi has the mount trait. So this works.
Also I am mixing Ranger animal companion Feats and Beast Master. It is not really necessary but it gets you the feats a bit faster and avoids the collision at level 10.
Note that I could just build this character Dex based with Finesse weapons. In which case use a spiked chain/bladed scarf
Heritage Sprite Melixie
Ancestry Feats:
1 Evanescent Wings not Corgi Mount
5 Natural Ambition=> Monster Hunter
9 Energize Wings
13 Invisible Trickster
17 Hero's Wings
Background:
Squire. (Athletics skill, Heraldry Lore skill, Armor Assist skill feat)
General Feats:
3 Adopted Ancestry Human
7 Incredible Initiative
11 Incredible Scout
15 Canny Acumen to cover that Will Save
19 True Perception
Class Feats:
1 Animal Companion
2 Beastmaster Dedication
4 Mature Beastmaster Companion
6 Disrupt Prey
8 Incredible Beastmaster's Companion
10 Master Monster Hunter
12 Side by Side (Ranger)
14 Specialized Beastmaster Companion
16 Specialized Beastmaster Companion
18 Lead the Pack or Specialized Beastmaster Companion if you want it
20 Legendary Monster Hunter
Ability Scores Level 1:
Str+4 18 (strong enough to carry his mount if required)
Dex+2 14
Con+1 12
Int-1 8
Wis+2 14
Cha+0 10
Ability Scores Level 20:
Str+7 24
Dex+4 18
Con+4 18
Int+1 12
Wis+5 20
Cha+2 14
Animal Companions
Corgi (Wolf)
1 Str +2, Dex +3, Con +2, Int -4, Wis +1, Cha +0, Trained Saving Throws, Barding, Unarmed Def, Unarmed Att, Survival, Perception, Acrobatics, Athletics
4 Str +3, Dex +4, Con +3, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +0, Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Perception; Trained Barding, Unarmed Def, Unarmed Att,Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
8 Nimble Str +4, Dex +6, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0, Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Acrobatics, Perception, Unarmed Def; Trained Barding, Unarmed Att, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
14 Daredevil Str +4, Dex +7, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0, Master Unarmed Def, Acrobatics; Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Perception; Trained Barding, Unarmed Att, Athletics, Intimidation, Stealth
16 Ambusher Str +4, Dex +8, Con +4, Int -4, Wis +3, Cha +0, Master Unarmed Def, Acrobatics; Expert Saving Throws, Survival, Stealth, Perception; Trained Barding, Unarmed Att, Athletics, Intimidation
A second Corgi with a pack strapped to its back.
Skills:
Nature
Survival
Medicine
Society (Corgis can go into palaces so we better have the basic etiquitte sorted out)
Stealth
Athletics
Heraldry Lore skill
By level 20
Trained: Diplomacy, Society, Stealth, Heraldry Lore
Expert: Athletics, Medicine
Master:
Legendary: Nature, Survival
Languages: Common, Sylvan + all animals(level 5)
Skill Feats:
BG Armor Assist
2 Continual Recovery
4 Titan Wrestler
6 Battle Medicine
8 Ward Medic
10 Trick Magic Item
12 Courtly Graces
14 Influence Nature
16 Experienced Tracker
18 Legendary Guide
20 Hefty Hauler
Equipment:
Breastplate
Belt of Giant Strength
Goggles of Night (Major)
Halberd (remember your reduced reach)
Short Bow
Lance and Shield for formal occasions. Light Hammer and Dagger for backup
Horseshoes of Speed
Barding of the Zephyr