...from a scroll, provided they could get a hold of one, and met the scroll requirements for casting said spell (capable of casting, scroll in hand, and spell in question is part of their tradition)?
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Yes, I believe so.
Sure, but giving a level 1 pc access to a scroll with the power to literally change reality around them is kinda overkill.
Also the DC will be like, 17 or something?
What DC? Is there a check or something I overlooked?
Or are you referring to the spell DC? (If the latter, then yes, it would be something like DC 15-17, depending on their spellcasting ability modifier.)
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...from a scroll, provided they could get a hold of one, and met the scroll requirements for casting said spell (capable of casting, scroll in hand, and spell in question is part of their tradition)?
Yes. But that's why the game put levels in items.
A GM can put these high lvl scroll in a player hand probably for a plot reason but by default a lvl 1 char haven't money for it and even if he has is a good idea not allow the access to it giving some decent excuse like "these scrolls are missing in the market now or you don't have contacts, knowledge or reputation to find this scroll in the city" or increasing the scrolls price temporally to higher than the money the player has and in off talk to the player explaining that accessing this high level scroll now would break the game balance.
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...from a scroll, provided they could get a hold of one, and met the scroll requirements for casting said spell (capable of casting, scroll in hand, and spell in question is part of their tradition)?
Scrolls are not the only high level consumables in the game. Any level 19+ consumable should be overkill on a 1st level character.
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Doesn't seem much worse then what a 1st level character could do with a +3 Major Striking Greater Flaming Speed Vorpal Weapon...
Doesn't seem much worse then what a 1st level character could do with a +3 Major Striking Greater Flaming Speed Vorpal Weapon...
Actually it does - the scroll is one time use, while the weapon can be used over and over again and makes everything to a certain point to a cakewalk (vs the scroll beeing the solution to probably only one problem)
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Doesn't seem much worse then what a 1st level character could do with a +3 Major Striking Greater Flaming Speed Vorpal Weapon...Actually it does - the scroll is one time use, while the weapon can be used over and over again and makes everything to a certain point to a cakewalk (vs the scroll beeing the solution to probably only one problem)
... which is why I said the scroll isn't worse than the weapon ;)
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Great. Thanks everyone! Just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking anything.
Huh, and here I thought that scrolls for 10th Lv spells wouldn't be a thing. Turns out I was thinking of wands.
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I would be wary of what scrolls you give your party access to though.
Let's say this is a fireball spell. If a level 20 wizard misplaces their fireball, and their lvl 20 fight is hit too, then it is a small mistake that is easily fixed by the lvl 20 cleric.
A level 1 wizard with a lvl 10 fireball scroll that hits their level 1 fighter is the guy that is going to be buying pizza for the group for the next three sessions as an apology.
Lower level characters simply have less ability to deal with the consequences of a high tier power. if they misuse a plane shift scroll then congratulations- your campaign has been converted into something set in that new plane, because they are 10 levels away from being able to fix the problem, and probably 7 levels away from paying someone else to fix it.
So carefully consider the dumbest thing they might do with that scroll, and whether they can do anything to fix that problem. Players assume that any item they are given- particularly unusual items like this- are to be used immediately, much like they will try to use a newly found plot key on any door they come across. Assume they will jump the gun on 'which problem they are supposed to solve' and waste the scroll on the midboss.
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I think it makes a great plot hook
You're at the King's castle to receive a quest, when the rogue slips away to look around. He stumble upon the Court Wizard's study, where he see a scroll on the table. No one's around, so he goes to check it out. Since he's have dabbled in the Arcane Arts he recognizes the spell as a Wish spell, and he gets the genus idea to cast the spell and slink out, and no one would be the wiser. He grabs the scroll and makes his wish: "I wish me and my party were the greatest heroes in all the land!" Poof, the scroll disappears, and he doesn't feel any different. The Court Wizard bursts out of his chambers yelling "Who's in my Stud- Oh! It's you, <character_name>! I'm so glad you're here, we have a major issue we need help with now!"
He's ushered back into the hall, where the party now has an audience with the king. The King wants the party to rid the area of the sinister Dragon that has been terrorizing these parts, and since they're the Greatest Heroes in the land, they are the only ones who can handle it.
Except, everyone is still level 1...
And the party has no idea what they mean by "Greatest Heroes"...
So, after explaining what happened to the party, they all agree to keep the ruse up and take on the quest to slay the dragon. But first, they're going to have to figure out a way to get super strong super quick. That's when one of the other party members remembers some rumors of a deck of cards...
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What with how the rules for Counteracting work, a high-level scroll of Dispel Magic can also be really powerful, because even on a poor check result, it'll still wipe away any lower level magic. So if you have a portal that's held shut by magic, finding this scroll can be the "blue keycard" they need to bust it open.
If, for some reason, a GM did want to shut this down, the best way I can see to do that RAW would be this line here:
To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on your spell list.
It could be argued that spells (other than maybe a few edge case exceptions from things like Witch Lessons) don't appear on your spell list until you are high enough level to cast them.
It is a tenuous argument at best, but if someone at the table was abusing the rules and causing problems this is what I would lean on to justify shutting it down.
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Yeah. That doesn't seem to jive with developer intent either since there are official dventure modules that give out scrolls of spells that are higher than what the PCs could normally cast. (That, or I have a very generous GM.)
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I think it makes a great plot hook
I mean, even aside from wish ...
A kingdom has a magical shield protecting it from the orc hordes, and some jackass accidentally casts disjunction and endangers the kingdom.
A con artist casts resplendent mansion and cons a bunch of people out of money, then vanishes.
PCs get an incredible job offer and go do a bunch of weird stuff and find out they're victims of a crusade spell.
First, let me say that I don't have a problem with allowing overcasting of scrolls. It is a cool idea generally. As many things in this thread have shown. I plan on allowing it and maybe even introducing it explicitly in the game I am running.
However, if it is a problem for some reason, this idea of only having spells on your spell list that you have the ability to cast naturally is the argument against it that I can defend the best.
I don't think you can argue that when Staffs specifically say you need to be able to cast spells of that level, but Scrolls and Wands do not.
That can also be seen as reminder text.
That doesn't seem to jive with developer intent either since there are official dventure modules that give out scrolls of spells that are higher than what the PCs could normally cast.
That game isn't my game. In my game...
Also, just because you get a high level scroll as loot, doesn't mean that you are expected to use it. You could also be expected to sell it, or save it until you are high enough level to use it.
...from a scroll, provided they could get a hold of one, and met the scroll requirements for casting said spell (capable of casting, scroll in hand, and spell in question is part of their tradition)?
Considering how magic works in my homebrew, my players would horde the spell knowledge until they could learn the spell themselves. Now if it was a spell they already knew, they would use it or sell it. Selling it would be worth a lot of coin and influence to the right faction :)
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...from a scroll, provided they could get a hold of one, and met the scroll requirements for casting said spell (capable of casting, scroll in hand, and spell in question is part of their tradition)?Considering how magic works in my homebrew, my players would horde the spell knowledge until they could learn the spell themselves. Now if it was a spell they already knew, they would use it or sell it. Selling it would be worth a lot of coin and influence to the right faction :)
Can they buy scrolls? I had considered saving it to learn later, but selling it now to buy a bunch of low level spells known would probably be a way better option.
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I love it and my mind raced with the possibilities. So then I looked up scrolls and how they worked and ran across this little interesting thing...
"If you find a scroll, you can try to figure out what spell it contains. If the spell is a common spell from your spell list or a spell you know, you can spend a single Recall Knowledge action and automatically succeed at identifying the scroll’s spell. If it’s not, you must use Identify Magic (page 238) to learn what spell the scroll holds."
If you give them a lvl 10 scroll of a common (in your game) spell, and it is of a list that they have, then they can ponder what to do with it. A level 10 scroll costs 8k gp. If they are prone to sell it, you can use that as a wbl balancing thing. Or, if they are level 1, maybe they don't run across someone with that much gold.
OR...
If you give them a lvl 10 scroll of an uncommon or rare (in your game) spell. The DC to identify is a 39 or more. For me as a player, an unidentifiable (at low levels) scroll would be so exciting and interesting.
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If, for some reason, a GM did want to shut this down, the best way I can see to do that RAW would be this line here:
To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on your spell list.It could be argued that spells (other than maybe a few edge case exceptions from things like Witch Lessons) don't appear on your spell list until you are high enough level to cast them.
It is a tenuous argument at best, but if someone at the table was abusing the rules and causing problems this is what I would lean on to justify shutting it down.
I have trouble seeing the abuse? You can't normally buy items above your level. If the players got hand on a high level scroll it's because you put it in loot somewhere as the GM in the first place.
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RAW: off course it is possible. (this should be the end of the discussion)
RAI: this must be a joke or theory craft
CRB table 10-9 Party Treasure by Level
8000 gp is the recommended whole party value for a 10th level party of four character.
While table 10-9 is 'only a recommendation' I would go as far as to say that either the GM introducing that scroll to a 1st level game has a very interesting plot line/hook or should be educated about level appropriate loot and how non appropriate items can wreck whole campaigns.
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Now that I think about it, just the existence of such a scroll could provoke story, regardless of what the characters do with it.
If they use it, maybe they cause a problem. Or, maybe they use it well and become famous for power that they don't have.
If they sell it... well, in order to sell it the buyer needs to know what it is to know how much it is worth. But, say they do. There could be a great tragedy caused by the scroll by whomever ended up with it.
If they hold on to it, you could have a BBE find out and send lackeys to retrieve it.
Such a cool campaign idea!
The difficulty there is that a critical failure, which is pretty likely given the DC, could spoil the fun a bit by having the character misidentify the scroll as something not so impressive.OR...
If you give them a lvl 10 scroll of an uncommon or rare (in your game) spell. The DC to identify is a 39 or more. For me as a player, an unidentifiable (at low levels) scroll would be so exciting and interesting.
That's easy to solve. Have them misidentify it as something that's either impossible/nonsensical, or as something that's not in the game (yet).
"I'd like to identify these enigmatic scrolls."
"Okay, I'll roll it."
*crit fails*
"The first one is a Lv.10 temporary tool, and the second one is... oh, wow, it's an interplanetary teleport scroll!
"Wait, that doesn't exist in PF2."
"No, it doesn't. Weird, huh?"