But to get panache you have to exceeds the very hard DC, which is not the flat DC20 that you otherwise need. So that is, um, very hard to do realiably.
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But to get panache you have to exceeds the very hard DC, which is not the flat DC20 that you otherwise need. So that is, um, very hard to do realiably.
With human getting a +4 circumstance bonus to it, it’s actually pretty reliable. 5+ at the highest level, as you’ll have a total of +40 to aid. Starts at 9-10+ (depends on if you start with 14 or 16 cha, but you’ll be at +9-10 to aid against DC20 to gain panache), although I wouldn’t use OFA until you can reliably crit it (around level 7-10 depending on how risk averse you are) unless you really need panache for that boss.
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One for all is definitely a good reason to get Swashbuckler Dedication. It's one of this gold nuggets the Swashbuckler has.
One for all is definitely a good reason to get Swashbuckler Dedication. It's one of this gold nuggets the Swashbuckler has.
Thankyou I didn't really see it till now. That +4 makes a big difference.
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One for all is definitely a good reason to get Swashbuckler Dedication. It's one of this gold nuggets the Swashbuckler has.Thankyou I didn't really see it till now. That +4 makes a big difference.
Even without this +4. The DC to Aid being static, at some point, you easily make a 30 to your Diplomacy Check. It has 30ft range and unlike Inspire Competence, you can use it on attack rolls. +3/+4 to an attack roll is completely out of line, especially because it's a circumstance bonus and as such adds up with everything else. On a Fighter, if you add Flat-Footed and a status bonus to hit (like Guidance or Inspire Courage) you can end up with 50% chances of critical. With the proper weapon, it's absolutely crazy.
Also, it can be used outside combat and allows you to help on many skill checks, which is always nice.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One for all is definitely a good reason to get Swashbuckler Dedication. It's one of this gold nuggets the Swashbuckler has.Thankyou I didn't really see it till now. That +4 makes a big difference.Even without this +4. The DC to Aid being static, at some point, you easily make a 30 to your Diplomacy Check. It has 30ft range and unlike Inspire Competence, you can use it on attack rolls. +3/+4 to an attack roll is completely out of line, especially because it's a circumstance bonus and as such adds up with everything else. On a Fighter, if you add Flat-Footed and a status bonus to hit (like Guidance or Inspire Courage) you can end up with 50% chances of critical. With the proper weapon, it's absolutely crazy.
Also, it can be used outside combat and allows you to help on many skill checks, which is always nice.
Well you can get +4 circumstance from Cooperative Nature, +4 from Charisma being your prime ability score, +4 from Expert diplomacy. So you are pretty soon rolling at 12+level. There are item bonuses for +1 or +2 around... So at level 10 you would be at +5,+6,+2,+10 for +23 before any status bonus. At which point critical succeses become ~75%....
Nice
Optional. You won't even notice if you don't take them. There are many rounds where nothing is done to activate them.Well at this point I will have to have a dig at you for claiming your group are mostly optimizers. If most of you aren't getting into AoO or another good reaction, then you are not close to optimised.
For sure maybe AoO might only trigger 30% of the time, maybe 50% if you work at it with reach and trip. But it's still an extra no penalty attack you are leaving on the table.
It doesn't change the fact they are optional. If AoO type of feats weren't optional, then casters and archers who often operate without these feats wouldn't be viable.
The question wasn't are they optimal. That answer to that question would have been yes with the obvious caveat of it depends on competing feats.
Not essential unless you’re going for an optimised build, though I always recommend having something to do with your reaction.
Optimisation wise, you definitely want some way to Strike with your reaction, preferably something that triggers easily (like Paladin reaction or Opportune Backstab) because Strike+Reaction Strike does more damage on average than Strike x3 does. The more reactions you can have and use, the more damage you deal at higher levels. This is why I rank, in terms of Striker effectiveness at higher levels
1. Fighter (3 reactions - Combat Reflexes, Improved Dueling Riposte). Although it’s hard to get off all 3, suggest Improved Knockdown to make AoO more consistent, and Paladin reaction to make Dueling Riposte more consistent (they attack you, riposte, attack allies, paladin).
2. Rogue (2 Reactions - Preparation). Opportune Backstab is one of the easiest reactions to trigger, and preparation just gives you another one. With 1-2 other melees, you can easily be making 3 MAPless attacks per round, dealing basically double the damage of an unoptimised rogue.
3. Swashbuckler (2 reactions - Reflexive Riposte). Swash is a bit more unique because they also have a way to use their damage booster feature more than other martials - bleeding finisher and dual finisher. I rate them below rogue because their extra reaction to hard to consistently use until you get parry and riposte at level 18.
4. Paladin (2 reactions - Divine Reflexes). Yes, the power of a second, easily triggerable reaction really does put them above barbarian.
5. Barbarian (No extra reaction). Unfortunately when playing at high op the lack of extra reaction anywhere in the barbarian’s kit means they fall behind. I suggest using Giant Instinct (for the extra size and reach) with Whirlwind Strike to maximise your number of MAPless attacks, but this leaves you distinctly lacking in the single target game relative to the higher tier martials. Attack of Opportunity as your only reaction isn’t that consistent either, I suggest...
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.
AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
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I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
I actually have data proving this wrong over an entire campaign with a Swashbuckler. I think I will go with that.
I tracked a bunch of gameplay data over several campaigns. Only the fighter exceeded the giant instinct barbarian damage and only the rogue roughly equaled it in real gameplay.
That is why I don't go by damage calculators and white room math for characters. Real game play is very different from a white room set up.
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This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
I actually have data proving this wrong over an entire campaign with a Swashbuckler. I think I will go with that.
I tracked a bunch of gameplay data over several campaigns. Only the fighter exceeded the giant instinct barbarian damage and only the rogue roughly equaled it in real gameplay.
That is why I don't go by damage calculators and white room math for characters. Real game play is very different from a white room set up.
Ya I have data too. How did your rogue, fighter and swash build and play? Were they optimising their reactions? That’s what I mean by optimised build. If they just built and played normally, getting a reaction whenever the opportunity gave itself rather than actively hunting, that’s probably right. Giant Barb benefits more from basic teamwork (+X/-X).
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This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
I would not say that unless you meant a Giant Barbarian without an AoO.
Level, build choices, party composition, and specifics of encounters come into it a lot. To make any sense of it you have to take a risk, and spend the time to post builds.
A well built and supported Giant Barbarian will be getting multiple targets out of Whirlwind Attack for a typical encounter every round they are on offer - being quickend is sort of compulsory, their reach will be impressive....
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Ya I have data too. How did your rogue, fighter and swash build and play? Were they optimising their reactions? That’s what I mean by optimised build. If they just built and played normally, getting a reaction whenever the opportunity gave itself rather than actively hunting, that’s probably right. Giant Barb benefits more from basic teamwork (+X/-X).This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
I actually have data proving this wrong over an entire campaign with a Swashbuckler. I think I will go with that.
I tracked a bunch of gameplay data over several campaigns. Only the fighter exceeded the giant instinct barbarian damage and only the rogue roughly equaled it in real gameplay.
That is why I don't go by damage calculators and white room math for characters. Real game play is very different from a white room set up.
I'm not sure why you're saying this.
Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck. If they crit, they crit like a truck. They do not benefit more from teamplay. I would say the rogue benefits the most from teamwork. The barbarian rages and rushes and hits things.
Yes. They tried to optimize their reactions. I'll give you some basic reasons why that stood out.
1. Barbarian is the least reliant on teamwork. He rages, rushes forward, and hits stuff. It's their basic playstyle.
Giant instinct rage damage doesn't require flanking, doesn't have any limiters like immunity to precision damage.
You just hit stuff real hard with a big weapon.
Reach allows you to take advantage of AoOs if things move around too much.
The damage is static and adds on to your weapon damage, so damage resistance applies only once.
2. Rogue relies on flanking usually easily done once you get gang up.
Rogue has Opportune Riposte, one of the easiest activated damage reactions in the game.
Rogue is the most reliant on teamwork as they generally find it desirable to attack a creature another creature is attacking getting an easy flank and avoiding attacks given they don't have DR, low hit points, and a slow AC progression.
3. Swashbuckler lies somewhere between the rogue and barbarian.
Swashbuckler has a decent AC progression and can use a buckler shield or a parry action.
Problem with the swashbuckler is they rely on a skill-based roll to regain their Panache. Even one failure disrupts their damage in short PF2 combats.
I found the Panache roll to be so problematic that I house ruled the Swashbuckler to start with a Panache. My player was failing his panache roll on occasion, then having to spend an extra action to roll panache again (and sometimes he even failed twice), then move into battle. That bad roll alone cost him substantially in the battle as failed panache rolls cost the Swashbuckler in battle where as rage and sneak attack don't cost the rogue or barbarian in battle.
That means a series of bad rolls has a more adverse effect on the swashbuckler than the barbarian or rogue.
Average combats are 3 to 5 rounds, possibly faster if a caster opens up with an AoE spells with critical fails.
I don't know where folks like you are getting your math or what you are playing against. But in actual game play an increased number of rolls to use your baseline abilities leads to increased chances of failure as well as taking up additional actions that are costly against classes that don't need to spend actions to roll for abilities to work.
That is what my data found was a limiter on the swashbuckler that did not limit the barbarian. His rage works, no roll required. Barbarian rage gets easier as you level to use combining with key actions that bring the barbarian into the fight sooner with immense reach as a Giant Instinct Barbarian.
It's why I generally take gameplay data over theorycraft. Something can look great on paper using an average that would occur for a given singular event over thousands of rolls, but doesn't work as well when fights are finite 3 to 5 round events where even one failure can reduce your damage substantially if it is for an ability like Panache which drives all your combat abilities.
That is what I found in play. The swashbuckler cannot account for saving throws of an enemy. If it is has a high Reflex save, then he might waste an action or two trying to get panache back using Acrobatics. If the enemy has a high Will save, he might use an action or two getting back panache using Diplomacy. In 3 to 5 round fights, this is substantial amount of time.
Whereas the giant instinct barbarian reaches a point where he sudden charges and rages all in the same action. He's ready to roll right now.
It's little advantages like this that pushed the barbarian up over the Swasbuckler as well as their reach.
I don't know why you're selling this idea that setting up reactions is as easy as you want to make it seem. It isn't. Lots of creatures have reach or don't fail to hit the Swashbuckler causing Opportune Riposte or act in a way that provokes AoOs.
I really don't like to give players a false idea of how easy it is to activate AoOs because they will be disappointed if they believe it is easy to do.
Please no one attack the line that a barbarian doesn't gain from team work. That is clearly not what Delvin means.
Yes the Swashbukler has to roll to get his panache - so he will fail at times. But there are some strong circumtance bonuses that he can get if he looks around. So it is not as hard as you might think.
However almost everything the Swashbuckler does for panache is valuable in its own right for helping the rest of the party. So the Swashbuckler is doing more than damage.
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Please no one attack the line that a barbarian doesn't gain from team work. That is clearly not what Delvin means.
Yes the Swashbukler has to roll to get his panache - so he will fail at times. But there are some strong circumtance bonuses that he can get if he looks around. So it is not as hard as you might think.
However almost everything the Swashbuckler does for panache is valuable in its own right for helping the rest of the party. So the Swashbuckler is doing more than damage.
I hope people naturally understand that any class including a barbarian benefits from the standard tactics like flanking or using debuffs, but they don't need it for their stuff to work like a rogue relies on flanking.
We did find the Swashbuckler makes a surprisingly good tank, especially a wit swashbuckler. With Dueling Stance and the Diplomacy special effect for Wit puts them on par for AC with a higher level Monk or Champion.
And Perfect Finisher is a huge game changer for damage. It's like a true strike on every attack with your flat precision damage. Not too shabby with a rapier with Deadly d8.
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I think the main difference between the Barb and the Swash not mentioned above is that the Barbarian takes the most damage of any of the martials, and the swashbuckler is on the low end of the spectrum for "how much you get hit". The barbarian needs teamwork not for offense, but for defense.
It's not just the AC thing, since the Swashbuckler (when the panache loop is running well) only really wants to make one attack and has the second best movement abilities after the monk.
Dueling Stance
Do you mean dueling dance? [stance for free Dueling Parry every round]
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This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
I would not say that unless you meant a Giant Barbarian without an AoO.
Level, build choices, party composition, and specifics of encounters come into it a lot. To make any sense of it you have to take a risk, and spend the time to post builds.
A well built and supported Giant Barbarian will be getting multiple targets out of Whirlwind Attack for a typical encounter every round they are on offer - being quickend is sort of compulsory, their reach will be impressive....
Barb does not do so much more damage on average compared to Swash, Rogue and Fighter that just one reaction attack is enough to make them close to 2 reaction attacks from the other 3. 3 MAPless attacks (hit 2 on whirlwind strike + reaction attack) will put them equal with fighter and swash (doing strike + 2 reaction attacks or finisher + 1), above rogue. 4 will put them ahead
The action cost and relative inflexibility of whirlwind attack also has to be considered. In the fighters case, they are only using 1 action plus 2 reactions, as opposed to the barb using 3 actions plus 1 reaction. The fighter has far more flexibility in their turn, even if the barb doesn’t necessarily need to move due to their massive reach. The cost of 3a melee activities is massive in my experience - my ranger player only used impossible flurry once, it was just too hard to use unhasted and too unreliable to be hasted. That’s why I say they need to be hitting 3+ enemies (+ getting their reaction attack) to be competitive with the best builds and teamwork from rogue/swash/fighter.
Dueling StanceDo you mean dueling dance? [stance for free Dueling Parry every round]
Yeah. Dueling Stance. That campaign is old, so not as up on all the abilities. No one else has wanted to play a Swashbuckler after his experience. He almost gave up a few times, but he's happier now at higher level as a Swashbuckler.
My current campaign is a thief rogue, shadow sorcerer, fervor witch (healer/buffer), monk, ancestor oracle monk MC, and flurry melee ranger with AC.
Big damage dealers in that group are the rogue and the flurry ranger is starting to dish it. Flurry ranger builds slower than the precision ranger, but can do some good damage once built out.
This is for optimised builds. Unless you’re routinely hitting 3+ creatures with a whirlwind attack, Barb is worse than rogue, swash and paladin at contributing meaningful damage. You can math it out, or you can trust my play experience. The gulf between optimised builds (and teamwork) for both in the efficacy of dealing with encounters is massive.
I put the giant instinct barbarian on par with the rogue for damage.AoOs are good, but not that good. Giant instinct barbarian hits like a truck with no real limitations on their damage. Other types of barbarians might have enough limitations to drop them down the list due to DR coming up more often. But giant instinct definitely a top level striker that gets pretty beastly as they level.
I would not say that unless you meant a Giant Barbarian without an AoO.
Level, build choices, party composition, and specifics of encounters come into it a lot. To make any sense of it you have to take a risk, and spend the time to post builds.
A well built and supported Giant Barbarian will be getting multiple targets out of Whirlwind Attack for a typical encounter every round they are on offer - being quickend is sort of compulsory, their reach will be impressive....
Barb does not do so much more damage on average compared to Swash, Rogue and Fighter that just one reaction attack is enough to make them close to 2 reaction attacks from the other 3. 3 MAPless attacks (hit 2 on whirlwind strike + reaction attack) will put them equal with fighter and swash (doing strike + 2 reaction attacks or finisher + 1), above rogue. 4 will put them ahead
The action cost and relative inflexibility of whirlwind attack also has to be considered. In the fighters case, they are only using 1 action plus 2 reactions, as opposed to the barb using 3 actions plus 1 reaction. The fighter has far more flexibility in their turn, even if the barb doesn’t necessarily need to move due to their...
My data shows fighter is clearly number one. It's not much of a contest save on occasional fights where the barb or rogue gets lucky crits. That +2 attack makes the fighter supreme given most damage dealing builds.
Barbarian is better than the swashbuckler according to my data. Swashbuckler gets closer at higher level with Perfect Finisher and the Swash having more tools for different opponents. Perfect Finisher is a huge game changer in high AC fights in favor the swashbuckler. Whereas his big damage finisher is nice against lower level opponents to hammer them hard. He has started to get a real feel for mixing it up.
I put the giant instinct barbarian and only that barbarian archetype as I have no experience with the other barbarian archetypes at a rogue level of damage. That is what my data shows. They hit real hard, pound through DR, reach allows them to use Whirlwind Attack and activate AoOs more often, and their crits are absolutely sickening.
So maybe the barbarian as an entire class is where you rank them as even dragon has some weaknesses when dealing with hardness or DR, but the giant instinct barbarian is a heavy hitter. Just a brutal damage dealer that almost made the swashbuckler quit his class because he felt he was some kind third wheel damage dealer due to sheer brutal damage that a giant instinct barbarian can do against everything.
I just looked at my old data. You know who sucks as a damage dealer? The Angel Summoner. What a terrible damage dealer. I really hope they do something about that before the summoner is released. They were like 3/4s of the damage of even an archer. Terrible at dealing damage.
The druid still had some absolutely sick combats. Real spiky damage. One fight do something like 12, 26, and 19 damage. Then spike up when AoE opportunities presented and do 144, 184, and 158. It made their overall damage very competitive as a class.
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I just looked at my old data. You know who sucks as a damage dealer? The Angel Summoner.
If he's bad, think about the poor BMX Bandit! Sorry, couldn't help myself. ;)
Personally I think Paizo have a done a pretty good job. The martials are all different in use:
Giant/Dragon Barbarian does better with fighting multiple targets: Swipe, Whirlwind Attack, Dragon's Rage Breath or Extra Reach
Fighter does better with reactions and just hitting/criticalling
Swashbuckler does better with reactions and debuffing
Rogue does better with single target damage and skills
Investigator does better with the plot not so much damage. But they are still useful.
Champion does better with defense, though Retributive Strike is strong offensively
Monk does better with defense and mobility, just not as good as the Champion at helping others.
Monk/Gymnast Swashbuckler/Animal Barbarian are good for grappling and control.
Ranger is Ok with single target damage. You need to work to get a good reaction.
If you want to be combat optimised a good reaction is not optional. But it is pretty easy to poach a lot from other classes.
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Barb does not do so much more damage on average compared to Swash, Rogue and Fighter that just one reaction attack is enough to make them close to 2 reaction attacks from the other 3. 3 MAPless attacks (hit 2 on whirlwind strike + reaction attack) will put them equal with fighter and swash (doing strike + 2 reaction attacks or finisher + 1), above rogue. 4 will put them ahead
The action cost and relative inflexibility of whirlwind attack also has to be considered. In the fighters case, they are only using 1 action plus 2 reactions, as opposed to the barb using 3 actions plus 1 reaction. The fighter has far more flexibility in their turn, even if the barb doesn’t necessarily need to move due to their massive reach. The cost of 3a melee activities is massive in my experience - my ranger player only used impossible flurry once, it was just too hard to use unhasted and too unreliable to be hasted. That’s why I say they need to be hitting 3+ enemies (+ getting their reaction attack) to be competitive with the best builds and teamwork from rogue/swash/fighter.
I strongly disagree with your analysis, as it gives the false impression that all Reactions are easy to trigger.
Champion's Reaction is the easiest to trigger, you will in general trigger it 2/3rd of the rounds (but if you expect to use the extra attack from Retributive Strike, then you fall under 50% even with Ranged Reprisal unless you play a ranged or a Reach Paladin).Opportune Backstab is easy to trigger but has the unpleasant tendency to increase luck impact during combat. If your allies have hard time hitting the enemy, you don't get your backstabs. It also strongly depends on the number of martials. If you have a single melee martial with you (which is a standard 4 character setup), you won't trigger it that often.
Riposte is quite common, especially against mooks. I'd say it triggers around 30% of the time unless you have a character that takes all the attention (like a Barbarian).
Attack of Opportunity is quite rare if you don't build for it. Roughly 20% of the time. Reach helps at low level, but monsters will quickly overreach you. Tripping or extreme reach is necessary if you want to get to roughly 40% chance to trigger AoOs.
Then, you forget the fact that extra reactions are specialized. So, you're not having "3 reactions", you're having one reaction, one AoO and one other thing. Scoring one AoO is common, but scoring 2 of them in the same round is a rarity unless you build with extreme Reach. Same with Riposte, which is often triggered by third attacks, and enemies have only one 3rd attack. That's why Combat Reflexes and Reflexive Riposte are level 10 feats while Divine Reflexes is level 14.
Also, all reactions are having different triggers, and as such are often incompatible. To trigger Riposte, the ennemies need to attack you, so you need to get close to them. To trigger AoO, you need the enemies to move away from you or toward you. Champion Reactions need the enemies to attack your allies. So you won't be able to use Riposte well with AoO or Champion Reactions.
And to end all of that, you completely forget the level prerequisites. Extra Reactions come at level 10-14. This is the late game.
So, I completely agree that your Reaction (without s) is important and you need to find a good use of it. Extra reactions can be nice, but they are not stellar due to level requirements and how hard it is to trigger the same reaction multiple times during a round.
Edit: And I forget the fact that you count Preparation as an extra reaction, when it cost you one action and as such very often your second attack. Considering that your second attack has 55% of the damage output of a primary attack and that second reactions are hardly triggered, the damage gain is negligeable, if any.
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Barb does not do so much more damage on average compared to Swash, Rogue and Fighter that just one reaction attack is enough to make them close to 2 reaction attacks from the other 3. 3 MAPless attacks (hit 2 on whirlwind strike + reaction attack) will put them equal with fighter and swash (doing strike + 2 reaction attacks or finisher + 1), above rogue. 4 will put them ahead
The action cost and relative inflexibility of whirlwind attack also has to be considered. In the fighters case, they are only using 1 action plus 2 reactions, as opposed to the barb using 3 actions plus 1 reaction. The fighter has far more flexibility in their turn, even if the barb doesn’t necessarily need to move due to their massive reach. The cost of 3a melee activities is massive in my experience - my ranger player only used impossible flurry once, it was just too hard to use unhasted and too unreliable to be hasted. That’s why I say they need to be hitting 3+ enemies (+ getting their reaction attack) to be competitive with the best builds and teamwork from rogue/swash/fighter.
I strongly disagree with your analysis, as it gives the false impression that all Reactions are easy to trigger.
Champion's Reaction is the easiest to trigger, you will in general trigger it 2/3rd of the rounds (but if you expect to use the extra attack from Retributive Strike, then you fall under 50% even with Ranged Reprisal unless you play a ranged or a Reach Paladin).
Opportune Backstab is easy to trigger but has the unpleasant tendency to increase luck impact during combat. If your allies have hard time hitting the enemy, you don't get your backstabs. It also strongly depends on the number of martials. If you have a single melee martial with you (which is a standard 4 character setup), you won't trigger it that often.
Riposte is quite common, especially against mooks. I'd say it triggers around 30% of the time unless you have a character that takes all the attention (like a Barbarian).
Attack of Opportunity is quite rare...
For the fighter: Ret Strike (from MC) and Riposte feed into each other such that you should get one of the two each round. Attack Op you should get once per round using improved knockdown, flail/hammer crit spec or some other proning method (if the enemy wants to stay prone, that’s also good). The third reaction is up in the air.
Rogue: Double backstab requires a melee support - this is where teamwork comes into play. It’s very possible, especially at level 17+, to have your fighter hitting on a 2 against a level+2 opponent. Base 75% hit chance, -3 for level+2, add a permanent +2 status from heroism (6) scroll spam, -2 enemy AC from flanking, -3 from synesthesia (or -2 if you want a more “reasonable” debuff at that level) and you’re looking at 90-95% hit chance. A simple Double Slice will then land 2 hits very consistently.
Swash: Panache gain at high levels so you can use your finisher isn’t that inconsistent. You can get it from OFA on a 3 if you are a human and use heroism scroll spam. Tumble Through numbers are similarly good, so launching off a dual/bleeding every round is not unfeasible. Their 2 reactions are hard to trigger until they get parry and riposte, where it’ll basically trigger both every round. Moreso if you start using disappearance scrolls.
Barb: Doesn’t really benefit much from teamwork. Their floor might be the same as the other 3, but their ceiling is definitely a lot lower.
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For the fighter: Ret Strike (from MC) and Riposte feed into each other such that you should get one of the two each round.
They don't feed into each other, they are mutually exclusive. So you don't need multiple reactions as you won't be able to score both of them.
Attack Op you should get once per round using improved knockdown
Improved Knockdown costs 2 actions, so you lose your second attack in general. A second attack deals 55% of a first attack. If you have 75% chances to hit, you only trip 75% of the time. And then the enemy may be dead before it gets it's turn (as piling on the prone enemy is quite a common tactic). So Improved Knockdown + AoO doesn't increase your damage output (it has another use, but we are speaking damage here). And you are adding a new feat. Maybe the "Improved Knockdown + extra AoO Fighter" is a massive build, but it's not the discussion.
It’s very possible, especially at level 17+, to have your fighter hitting on a 2 against a level+2 opponent. Base 75% hit chance, -3 for level+2, add a permanent +2 status from heroism (6) scroll spam, -2 enemy AC from flanking, -3 from synesthesia (or -2 if you want a more “reasonable” debuff at that level) and you’re looking at 90-95% hit chance. A simple Double Slice will then land 2 hits very consistently.
So many conditions to justify Preparation. Maybe just not taking it is a better thing to do, as your allies will be able to play the way they want then.
Barb: Doesn’t really benefit much from teamwork. Their floor might be the same as the other 3, but their ceiling is definitely a lot lower.
Quite the opposite. Due to the high damage per hit, the Barbarian is the one that gets the most bonus from extra chances to hit. For example, a Giant Barbarian with +5 to hit gains 10% extra damage compared to a Fighter with +5 to hit. So, the more bonuses and the more the Barbarian hits like a truck.
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Interesting analysis on the panache. Sounds like After You may be better than I gave it credit for.
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Interesting analysis on the panache. Sounds like After You may be better than I gave it credit for.
At low level, Panache is very hard to get. Level 7 is the moment where things change. But low level Swashbucklers struggle compared to other martials, that's a given.
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As Bidi said, Barbarians benefit a lot from teamwork. Having the highest base damage, bonuses to their attack multiply more than with any other class.
And I would never count on enemies making third strikes.
Most creatures are either smarter and should skirmish or Intimidate; or have a secondary effect (like Knockdown or Grab) that's using their actions. It all varies by context as always, but I've seldom had monsters make three swings except the most basic (and those aren't the ones to worry about/focus on.)
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...Barb does not do so much more damage on average compared to Swash, Rogue and Fighter that just one reaction attack is enough to make them close to 2 reaction attacks from the other 3. 3 MAPless attacks (hit 2 on whirlwind strike + reaction attack) will put them equal with fighter and swash (doing strike + 2 reaction attacks or finisher + 1), above rogue. 4 will put them ahead
The action cost and relative inflexibility of whirlwind attack also has to be considered. In the fighters case, they are only using 1 action plus 2 reactions, as opposed to the barb using 3 actions plus 1 reaction. The fighter has far more flexibility in their turn, even if the barb doesn’t necessarily need to move due to their massive reach. The cost of 3a melee activities is massive in my experience - my ranger player only used impossible flurry once, it was just too hard to use unhasted and too unreliable to be hasted. That’s why I say they need to be hitting 3+ enemies (+ getting their reaction attack) to be competitive with the best builds and teamwork from rogue/swash/fighter.
I strongly disagree with your analysis, as it gives the false impression that all Reactions are easy to trigger.
Champion's Reaction is the easiest to trigger, you will in general trigger it 2/3rd of the rounds (but if you expect to use the extra attack from Retributive Strike, then you fall under 50% even with Ranged Reprisal unless you play a ranged or a Reach Paladin).
Opportune Backstab is easy to trigger but has the unpleasant tendency to increase luck impact during combat. If your allies have hard time hitting the enemy, you don't get your backstabs. It also strongly depends on the number of martials. If you have a single melee martial with you (which is a standard 4 character setup), you won't trigger it that often.
Riposte is quite common, especially against mooks. I'd say it triggers around 30% of the time unless you have a character that takes all the attention (like a Barbarian).
Attack
What real play determined for panache was the following:
1. Average is rare. Sounds funny, but it was true. There were very few encounters where average was the case. A lot of boss monsters are custom made and have higher than normal key saves. This was also the case with many monsters developed specifically for the campaign you were in.
2. Movement tumbling through on bigger creatures takes up a lot of movement. If you start the round with no panache and a move reduced to 30 feet or so, it's hard to move to and through a large or huge target and tumble through at half speed with a single move.
And abilities like Intimidate and Bon Mot work within 30 feet. You have to move to within 30 feet of the target. Easy to do in dungeons, not so much in outdoor settings when larger creatures are moving around a lot.
3. Reach disrupts Opportune Riposte and AoOs. One 5 foot step by a creature with reach completely negates the AoO or opportune riposte of a medium creature with standard reach.
All a somewhat intelligent creature needs to do is spend their first action taking a 5 foot step and you completely negate the AoO or Opportune Riposte. So you take an ability that triggers not that often to begin with and make it trigger less with an extremely common and easy to use move action.
When you have reactions easily beat by a common action that any creature can take, their value is only so high.
The biggest advantage the rogue has is the reaction triggers off an ally attacking the same enemy during their turn, which doesn't allow the enemy to take a 5 foot step first. That's why I see Opportune Backstab go off the most. There's not a good way for an enemy to avoid it on their turn.
Even a Champion's Reaction can be avoided by the enemy moving beyond 15 feet on their turn to attack an enemy out of range or just attacking the Champion. But the enemy can't do much to counter Opportune Backstab unless their turn falls at some perfect time for the rogue to be out of range when the enemy is being attacked by an ally.
Reactions that can't be countered with a 5 foot step, reach, or attacking another target are more valuable than reactions that key off a tactical choice by the enemy rather than an ally.
4. Straight up immunity to the Panache ability. I know this is a debated a topic, but I do not allow a Bon Mot action to restore panache if it does not work against an enemy. If a Wit Swashbuckler tries to Bon Mot a golem or mindless ooze, it doesn't work and panache is not restored. That limits his option to Tumble Through, which requires movement.
It's not as easy as I expected it to be to get back panache. It really upset the Swashbuckler player. On rounds he failed a Panache roll, the player became super frustrated. It very much impacted his damage far more than a barbarian, rogue or practically any class.
Even on a 3 or less average failed roll, that means once every 10 rolls he will fail. That would be about once every 2nd or 3rd combat if every combat is that average. That adds up to a lot of rounds without panache if just going with averages and worse if the combat is against creatures with higher than average chances of failure or bad circumstances for gaining panache like flying creatures who can't be tumbled on if you can't fly or highly mobile creatures who move way beyond your range to get panache back.
You can get real mean as a DM with Swashbucklers to disrupt their ability to fight well. As a DM you have to careful about screwing a Swashbuckler in ways other characters can't be screwed by using enemies that disrupt their fighting style too often. It's not fun for them and the Swashbuckler has some of the easiest to disrupt fighting styles because it relies so heavily on Panache generation and various skill rolls.
Interesting analysis on the panache. Sounds like After You may be better than I gave it credit for.At low level, Panache is very hard to get. Level 7 is the moment where things change. But low level Swashbucklers struggle compared to other martials, that's a given.
You means its a roll with a significant failure chance yes. But you can always try to tumble through as a back up plan. That is something you can get circumstance bonuses for too.
Further you can mitigate it by trying to end you turn with panache, by striking early in your turn. Giving you more attempts to recover your panache if you fail.A Swashbuckler is ordinary without panache but they aren't hopeless. They can still just attack if they want.
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For the fighter: Ret Strike (from MC) and Riposte feed into each other such that you should get one of the two each round.They don't feed into each other, they are mutually exclusive. So you don't need multiple reactions as you won't be able to score both of them.
If one is 50% and the other 40% that is a 70% chance of getting at least one off. It is just maths. Two different reactions are useful even if you only have one reaction per round.
Attack Op you should get once per round using improved knockdownImproved Knockdown costs 2 actions, so you lose your second attack in general. A second attack deals 55% of a first attack. If you have 75% chances to hit, you only trip 75% of the time. And then the enemy may be dead before it gets it's turn (as piling on the prone enemy is quite a common tactic). So Improved Knockdown + AoO doesn't increase your damage output (it has another use, but we are speaking damage here). And you are adding a new feat. Maybe the "Improved Knockdown + extra AoO Fighter" is a massive build, but it's not the discussion.
I think you are playing it wrong there. Doesn't Improved Knockdown only count as one attack. So you still get your second attack. You are losing your third attack.
It’s very possible, especially at level 17+, to have your fighter hitting on a 2 against a level+2 opponent. Base 75% hit chance, -3 for level+2, add a permanent +2 status from heroism (6) scroll spam, -2 enemy AC from flanking, -3 from synesthesia (or -2 if you want a more “reasonable” debuff at that level) and you’re looking at 90-95% hit chance. A simple Double Slice will then land 2 hits very consistently.So many conditions to justify Preparation. Maybe just not taking it is a better thing to do, as your allies will be able to play the way they want then.
Yes that is the thing about the Rogue's extra reaction. It costs an action in your turn to get. Which is fair given that it it probably the best reaction.
But really I'm less interested with level 17+ than mid levels where more people play.
Barb: Doesn’t really benefit much from teamwork. Their floor might be the same as the other 3, but their ceiling is definitely a lot lower.Quite the opposite. Due to the high damage per hit, the Barbarian is the one that gets the most bonus from extra chances to hit. For example, a Giant Barbarian with +5 to hit gains 10% extra damage compared to a Fighter with +5 to hit. So, the more bonuses and the more the Barbarian hits like a truck.
I really don't get why the down on the Barbarian and team work, they have the biggest stick. You have the most to gain by optimising it. Yes the rogue combinations you are referring to are probably the strongest I've seen. Short of level 16 when other classes can poach that reaction too. It is just that there are a lot of other things you can do beyond maximising reactions to help.
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I strongly disagree with your analysis, as it gives the false impression that all Reactions are easy to trigger.
Champion's Reaction is the easiest to trigger, you will in general trigger it 2/3rd of the rounds (but if you expect to use the extra attack from Retributive Strike, then you fall under 50% even with Ranged Reprisal unless you play a ranged or a Reach Paladin).
If you have Retributive Strike then you will almost certainly have a reach weapon. The dreaded Flickmace or a Polearm. Getting even more reach should be your priority.
The other Champion reactions are even easier to trigger. But they don't do much damage, so not really what we are talking about here.
I think your odds for reactions are a shade low. But its hard to argue as no one has real metrics.
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2. Movement tumbling through on bigger creatures takes up a lot of movement. If you start the round with no panache and a move reduced to 30 feet or so, it's hard to move to and through a large or huge target and tumble through at half speed with a single move.
Am I missing something? Where in Tumble Through does it say you have to travel to the other side of the creature's space? You can go 5ft in and then straight out the way you came, it acts as a normal stride and you've certainly still moved through the enemy's space.
What real play determined for panache was the following:
1. Average is rare. Sounds funny, but it was true. There were very few encounters where average was the case. A lot of boss monsters are custom made and have higher than normal key saves. This was also the case with many monsters developed specifically for the campaign you were in.
Absolutely get it, this week I had about ten rolls over 13 in a row, followed by ten rolls under 9. It happens. IF your GM is constantly throwing high level monsters at you because its simpler for him to control fewer creatures (I've done this too much) Then it will be distorting the experience.
2. Movement tumbling through on bigger creatures takes up a lot of movement. If you start the round with no panache and a move reduced to 30 feet or so, it's hard to move to and through a large or huge target and tumble through at half speed with a single move.
Yes but you don't have to tumble all the way through. You can cross one corner square on a gigantic monster and you have fufilled the conditions for tumbling through it.
And abilities like Intimidate and Bon Mot work within 30 feet. You have to move to within 30 feet of the target. Easy to do in dungeons, not so much in outdoor settings when larger creatures are moving around a lot.
Yes but pretty much all the builds we are talking about are melee specific and have this problem. Swashbuckler are dex based and not terrible with bows. If they are moving around a lot then you are getting AoO, anyway.
3. Reach disrupts Opportune Riposte and AoOs. One 5 foot step by a creature with reach completely negates the AoO or opportune riposte of a medium creature with standard reach.All a somewhat intelligent creature needs to do is spend their first action taking a 5 foot step and you completely negate the AoO or Opportune Riposte. So you take an ability that triggers not that often to begin with and make it trigger less with an extremely common and easy to use move action.
This is a problem then. You have options to defeat this. Get reach. Get enlarged via a potion or spell, or just use a Scorpion Whip - yes there are reach finess options! Close to range zero. They can't step away now without some special ability or wasting their turn.
Even a Champion's Reaction can be avoided by the enemy moving beyond 15 feet on their turn to attack an enemy out of range or just attacking the Champion. But the enemy can't do much to counter Opportune Backstab unless their turn falls at some perfect time for the rogue to be out of range when the enemy is being attacked by an ally.
The Champion doesn't mind if he is attacked that is the real point. If this happens all the time just be a bit more defensive and soak it up.
4. Straight up immunity to the Panache ability. I know this is a debated a topic, but I do not allow a Bon Mot action to restore panache if it does not work against an enemy. If a Wit Swashbuckler tries to Bon Mot a golem or mindless ooze, it doesn't work and panache is not restored.
Try a misc arcobatics check or tumble through.
Every class has their weaknesses. There are a significant number of things that are immune to precision damage too. That's a weakness the Giant Barbarian does have (though he has to worry about doors).
You have a reasonable basic attack and some maneuvers to fall back on. Everyone should have a plan B.
2. Movement tumbling through on bigger creatures takes up a lot of movement. If you start the round with no panache and a move reduced to 30 feet or so, it's hard to move to and through a large or huge target and tumble through at half speed with a single move.
One point you may be forgetting is that you immediately gain your speed as soon as you succeed at your Tumble Through. So even if you have 30 ft of movement, you can Tumble Through a monster 25ft away from you as if you succeed, your speed immediately increases to the Panached one.
At low level, Panache is very hard to get. Level 7 is the moment where things change. But low level Swashbucklers struggle compared to other martials, that's a given.You means its a roll with a significant failure chance yes.
The problem is not the chance of failing one roll, as you have 3 actions you can retry once. The problem is the chance of failing 2 rolls in a raw. 2 failed attempts at gaining Panache + one normal attack with a Rapier is roughly a round lost.
Before level 7, you have hard time having high skill levels and you are very often at 30-50% chance to fail. Which means 10-25% chance to double fail and roughly lose your round. That's high.After level 7, chances tend to go under 30% and as such the double failure still exists but begins to be a rare sight.
If one is 50% and the other 40% that is a 70% chance of getting at least one off. It is just maths. Two different reactions are useful even if you only have one reaction per round.
Our discussion with Exocist is not about the chances to trigger a reaction but about the feats that give multiple reactions per round. By definition, you can't trigger both Riposte and Champion's Reaction at the same time and as such you won't benefit linearly from a high number of Reactions per round because there are mutual exclusions.
I think you are playing it wrong there. Doesn't Improved Knockdown only count as one attack. So you still get your second attack. You are losing your third attack.
The classical round is Stride, Strike, Strike, so you lose your second attack. If the overall strategy only works when the Fighter doesn't need to move or is Hasted, then I think it's not so much of a classical situation to base a build discussion on it.
If you have Retributive Strike then you will almost certainly have a reach weapon.
Not my experience but I don't think any of us can find the % of Reach Paladin, so it's not an important point.
But a Reach weapon comes with a price (not so much the Flickmace I agree). So you lose on damage output per attack to gain chances to trigger a reaction. That's not a strict gain in damage and I'm far from convinced that a Greatsword Paladin will do less damage than a Hallberd one.I think your odds for reactions are a shade low. But its hard to argue as no one has real metrics.
For the Champion's Reaction, I've counted it in one of my games. But I agree that we can't know for sure because it's also highly party dependent (a Barbarian will attract attention and as such trigger Champion's Reactions when a Dexterity Monk will rarely get hit and as such screw the Champion's efficiency).
Anyway, what I want to show is that having 3 Reactions doesn't mean making 4 MAPless attacks per round. Far from it. And that's what Exocist tend to show with his posts.
Reactions are hard to trigger, even the easiest ones to trigger won't be a given. Triggering multiple reactions per round will be very uncommon or ask for some specific team tactics (so other characters may sacrifice their damage output to increase yours).
If you have Retributive Strike then you will almost certainly have a reach weapon.
Not my experience but I don't think any of us can find the % of Reach Paladin, so it's not an important point.
But a Reach weapon comes with a price (not so much the Flickmace I agree). So you lose on damage output per attack to gain chances to trigger a reaction. That's not a strict gain in damage and I'm far from convinced that a Greatsword Paladin will do less damage than a Hallberd one.
It is going to vary, but I'm pretty confident that the first bit of extra reach is worth the few points of damage lost because of the extra attacks you get.
If you have another reach option then yes maybe it is more of a wash.
For the Champion's Reaction, I've counted it in one of my games. But I agree that we can't know for sure because it's also highly party dependent (a Barbarian will attract attention and as such trigger Champion's Reactions when a Dexterity Monk will rarely get hit and as such screw the Champion's efficiency).
No character is an island The Champion Barbarian combination is strong together.
I don't really like monks because I haven't really worked out how to
synergize with them yet.
Anyway, what I want to show is that having 3 Reactions doesn't mean making 4 MAPless attacks per round. Far from it. And that's what Exocist tend to show with his posts.
Yep. That is a best case situation.
Reactions are hard to trigger, even the easiest ones to trigger won't be a given. Triggering multiple reactions per round will be very uncommon or ask for some specific team tactics (so other characters may sacrifice their damage output to increase yours).
Yes but he is talking about teams built to work together. It is simple to really improve the numbers. Are you talking about PFS?
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Yes but he is talking about teams built to work together. It is simple to really improve the numbers. Are you talking about PFS?
I'm not talking about any team in particular.
The examples Exocist gave were not showing a "team built to work together" but a "team using all its ressources toward increasing the chances to trigger Opportune Backstab". It's a very different type of team.
Also, teams "built to work together" are in my opinion a rarity. Most teams I've seen are built with basic needs in mind, like having a valid frontline, a few casters from different traditions, most skills covered. But I've never seen people choosing a Fighter over a Barbarian because it increases Opportune Backstab chances. In my opinion, such level of team optimization is a rarity.
So, I 100% agree that team tactics will impact a lot the expected result. But we can't have a conversation considering that the team is perfectly built to trigger Opportune Backstab and acting toward it. We should stay as far as possible from advanced team tactics as they are far from a given and way too complex to analyze.
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Yes but he is talking about teams built to work together. It is simple to really improve the numbers. Are you talking about PFS?I'm not talking about any team in particular.
The examples Exocist gave were not showing a "team built to work together" but a "team using all its ressources toward increasing the chances to trigger Opportune Backstab". It's a very different type of team.
Also, teams "built to work together" are in my opinion a rarity. Most teams I've seen are built with basic needs in mind, like having a valid frontline, a few casters from different traditions, most skills covered. But I've never seen people choosing a Fighter over a Barbarian because it increases Opportune Backstab chances. In my opinion, such level of team optimization is a rarity.So, I 100% agree that team tactics will impact a lot the expected result. But we can't have a conversation considering that the team is perfectly built to trigger Opportune Backstab and acting toward it. We should stay as far as possible from advanced team tactics as they are far from a given and way too complex to analyze.
In this case it was a team built to work together
The wizard was playing a standard debuff focused wizard with halcyon speaker by free archetype, eventually getting synesthesia.
The rogue was playing a ruffian rogue with backstab, preparation and leave an opening
The fighter was playing a dual-wielder with a gauntlet, warhammer (ancestral echoing rune)
The fighter and rogue would support each other quite a lot, the rogue triggering attack ops off leave an opening, which would in turn trigger backstabs. It was fairly often at higher levels that the fighter would double slice, triggering 2 backstabs, which would in turn trigger 1-2 attack ops, defeating even a +2 (sometimes higher) monster in a single turn.
The barbarian, short of being buffed, has no such capability for advanced teamwork to push their ceiling higher. Buffing and debuffing is kind of just the baseline for "playing the game at all" in my opinion - I'm talking about the best builds, and unfortunately for the barbarian they don't compete at that level (in my opinion).
But even without a team built to work together that well, you can simply have a composition which supports the rogue well - any sort of melee strikers will do it, especially if they have more high accuracy attacks from reactions to trigger prep/backstab more consistently. Buffs and Debuffs also help the rogue get their backstabs off, of course. The Barbarian doesn't have any additional way to be supported - nothing can put more enemies on the board, or move more enemies into Whirlwind Strike in a way that's efficient, for instance. Whereas you can help the rogue/fighter/swash get off their reactions more consistently.
And yes, by "feed into each other" I mean that if they attack your allies, you trigger ret strike, if they attack you, you trigger riposte. In that way, you should be able to get one of the two off, plus your attack of opportunity, plus a small chance you get the third. Playing optimally you should always have a reach weapon for this sort of thing.
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In this case it was a team built to work together
Ok, so you're playing kind of a god Fighter team. You even have a character who took a 14th level feat just to improve the Fighter, it's not something that everyone is willing to do. Obviously, the Fighter is central to it and can't be replaced by another class. As a side note, the Fighter is also it's biggest weakness, if the enemies manage to put the Fighter down, the team takes a big hit (the Rogue loses most of its damage output and the Wizard has to switch to an offensive playstyle, so it may end up pretty badly).
It doesn't mean that other classes are bad, there are other teams that work better with a Barbarian than a Fighter. One can easily imagine a god Barbarian team with a central Barbarian obliterating everything and the proper characters around him to support his playstyle.
So, I still disagree with you. You can't speak about the occurence of reactions basing yourself on a team that is specifically designed to trigger these reactions. AoOs aren't trigger that often and Opportune Backstab is not a given every round in most 4-character teams.
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Not every round, but in my experience if there's a rogue to take it, Opportune Backstab will be triggered in more rounds than it isn't, unless the party is doing something silly like dividing up to 1V1 against individual opponents.
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Not every round, but in my experience if there's a rogue to take it, Opportune Backstab will be triggered in more rounds than it isn't, unless the party is doing something silly like dividing up to 1V1 against individual opponents.
I completely agree.
But Exocist was saying that, basically, Opportune Backstab can be triggered twice a round with 90-95% chances.Even if it may true with the proper team, it's far from a given.
2. Movement tumbling through on bigger creatures takes up a lot of movement. If you start the round with no panache and a move reduced to 30 feet or so, it's hard to move to and through a large or huge target and tumble through at half speed with a single move.Am I missing something? Where in Tumble Through does it say you have to travel to the other side of the creature's space? You can go 5ft in and then straight out the way you came, it acts as a normal stride and you've certainly still moved through the enemy's space.
I do allow that. But it doesn't allow you to move into flanking position. My player did that quite often. But movement was still a bigger pain than I expected it to be. I wish they had just made the Swashbuckler movement bonus always on as having to track their move with and without panache is annoying.
Speaking as someone who is a Paladin Champion with a Reach weapon and has played them from level 5 (joined in a group) to level 16, picking up Attack of Opportunity at 8th level, I have had plenty of encounters where not being able to use my Champion Reaction was a harsh reality, either due to positioning or mechanics, and in most of those cases, Attack of Opportunity was a useful substitute for making sure my Reaction was put to good use.
In one of our recent fights at 15th level, we faced mindless undead animals whose attacks didn't affect us until after they died, thus ensuring my Champion reaction wouldn't take place. However, I've used Attack of Opportunity a few times there instead to good effect, so it wasn't a complete waste of action economy.
So to answer the question: Is it mandatory? Not really. It works best with a character that has Reach and can create situations where enemies would trigger them. As a character with a Reach weapon, it makes more sense for me to compared to others who don't have it.
Is it nice to have? Absolutely. Even as someone who isn't wielding a Reach weapon, when Spellcasters and such risk casting in your threatened space, you make them pay for it, potentially disrupting their spell entirely. Barbarians with their ridiculous damage range will obliterate opponents. A free attack at no MAP without costing any in-turn actions is awesome for anyone competent in melee combat.
I did notice once I picked up Giant and Titan stature on the Giant Instinct Barbarian, my AoO was triggered way more often due to the insane reach. Just makes closing on the barbarian and moving around the battlefield of a large or huge creature with reach and an AoO dangerous. You cover a lot of space being large or huge with reach.
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So, I still disagree with you. You can't speak about the occurence of reactions basing yourself on a team that is specifically designed to trigger these reactions. AoOs aren't trigger that often and Opportune Backstab is not a given every round in most 4-character teams.
My point is that optimisation in this game is part build and part well built team. Leave an Opening is also helping the rogue combo off the fighter. If the rogue crits his Strike, the fighter can attack op which lets the rogue backstab. It’s not a purely “I took this just to support the fighter” thing.
The Barbarian doesn’t really have any complimentary classes that are particularly better for them than anyone else, so their ceiling is lower.
And also why is everyone building their characters independent of each other? Is it strange for people to ask each other what their characters do and how they can compliment each other? I guess in PFS it might be, but in home games that sounds weird.
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I think champions are a bit unusual because for them it's not all that bad that they have competing options for their reaction. The thing is that they put enemies in a "every choice is bad" situation. Attack the champion? Shield Block. Attack their allies? Cause-based reaction. Walk away? Attack of Opportunity.
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So, I still disagree with you. You can't speak about the occurence of reactions basing yourself on a team that is specifically designed to trigger these reactions. AoOs aren't trigger that often and Opportune Backstab is not a given every round in most 4-character teams.My point is that optimisation in this game is part build and part well built team. Leave an Opening is also helping the rogue combo off the fighter. If the rogue crits his Strike, the fighter can attack op which lets the rogue backstab. It’s not a purely “I took this just to support the fighter” thing.
The Barbarian doesn’t really have any complimentary classes that are particularly better for them than anyone else, so their ceiling is lower.
And also why is everyone building their characters independent of each other? Is it strange for people to ask each other what their characters do and how they can compliment each other? I guess in PFS it might be, but in home games that sounds weird.
Because they want to make a character they like?
Still not sure why you are trying to undersell the barbarian. They are a brutal high damage striker who commands attention by the sheer brutality of their strikes. They don't have much else going for them but doing a lot of damage.
So, I still disagree with you. You can't speak about the occurence of reactions basing yourself on a team that is specifically designed to trigger these reactions. AoOs aren't trigger that often and Opportune Backstab is not a given every round in most 4-character teams.My point is that optimisation in this game is part build and part well built team. Leave an Opening is also helping the rogue combo off the fighter. If the rogue crits his Strike, the fighter can attack op which lets the rogue backstab. It’s not a purely “I took this just to support the fighter” thing.
The Barbarian doesn’t really have any complimentary classes that are particularly better for them than anyone else, so their ceiling is lower.
Only in the sense that Barbarian doesn't have anything like the feedback loop you are talking about with that particular combination. They can still participate. They have an awesome AoO. They can still trigger the Rogue. They just can't chain it again.
And also why is everyone building their characters independent of each other? Is it strange for people to ask each other what their characters do and how they can compliment each other? I guess in PFS it might be, but in home games that sounds weird.
Yeah my players quickly adapt to each other as we run some fairly long campaigns.
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So, I still disagree with you. You can't speak about the occurence of reactions basing yourself on a team that is specifically designed to trigger these reactions. AoOs aren't trigger that often and Opportune Backstab is not a given every round in most 4-character teams.My point is that optimisation in this game is part build and part well built team. Leave an Opening is also helping the rogue combo off the fighter. If the rogue crits his Strike, the fighter can attack op which lets the rogue backstab. It’s not a purely “I took this just to support the fighter” thing.
The Barbarian doesn’t really have any complimentary classes that are particularly better for them than anyone else, so their ceiling is lower.
And also why is everyone building their characters independent of each other? Is it strange for people to ask each other what their characters do and how they can compliment each other? I guess in PFS it might be, but in home games that sounds weird.
Because they want to make a character they like?
Still not sure why you are trying to undersell the barbarian. They are a brutal high damage striker who commands attention by the sheer brutality of their strikes. They don't have much else going for them but doing a lot of damage.
I could understand that if I was asking you to dedicate your entire build to making us both better, but one feat? It’s such a minor part of the character, and makes two people a lot better.
To me, the barbarian is like the Zen Archer or the Kineticist. It has no flair, no special spice that can make it that much better. It looks impressive in comparison to unoptimised builds, or in a vacuum, but once you enter the realm of optimisation it doesn’t compete.
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So, I still disagree with you. You can't speak about the occurence of reactions basing yourself on a team that is specifically designed to trigger these reactions. AoOs aren't trigger that often and Opportune Backstab is not a given every round in most 4-character teams.My point is that optimisation in this game is part build and part well built team. Leave an Opening is also helping the rogue combo off the fighter. If the rogue crits his Strike, the fighter can attack op which lets the rogue backstab. It’s not a purely “I took this just to support the fighter” thing.
The Barbarian doesn’t really have any complimentary classes that are particularly better for them than anyone else, so their ceiling is lower.
And also why is everyone building their characters independent of each other? Is it strange for people to ask each other what their characters do and how they can compliment each other? I guess in PFS it might be, but in home games that sounds weird.
Because they want to make a character they like?
Still not sure why you are trying to undersell the barbarian. They are a brutal high damage striker who commands attention by the sheer brutality of their strikes. They don't have much else going for them but doing a lot of damage.
I could understand that if I was asking you to dedicate your entire build to making us both better, but one feat? It’s such a minor part of the character, and makes two people a lot better.
To me, the barbarian is like the Zen Archer or the Kineticist. It has no flair, no special spice that can make it that much better. It looks impressive in comparison to unoptimised builds, or in a vacuum, but once you enter the realm of optimisation it doesn’t compete.
I don't know how you can honestly say this. You can optimize a barbarian with feats and gear to make them brutal. It seems you haven't even tried and don't understand how to optimize them.
The barbarian doesn't look impressive in a vacuum. In fact, in a vacuum and using white room math, the barbarian looks less impressive. It's in real play in a group where the barbarian shines.
I made a Giant Instinct Barbarian for fun thinking this might be fun. I wasn't expecting much from the class. I had read the forums claiming the Giant Instinct Barbarian was just ok.
I had seen a ranger archer, strength and dex based rogue, Power Attacking Fighter, flurry ranger, two weapon fighter, and sword and board champion in action. No one had played a barbarian.
But once you play a Giant Instinct Barbarian optimized and backed up by a group, it is a site to behold. I don't like being dishonest myself, which is why I put them on par for damage with a rogue.
Rogues deal a lot of damage. It isn't big spike damage like a barbarian, but it's very powerful, consistently high damage over the course of many battles.
The fighter is also more of a consistent damage dealer. The +2 to hit makes it so their strikes land more often. It is born out by the data.
The barbarian is what I call a big spike damage dealer that over time will average out to a rogue with rounds so brutal that fights end quickly. You can go a few rounds where your landing your standard 50 point hits. Then you'll suddenly get a crit, then a hit, then activate an AoO, and suddenly your damage spikes up to nutty levels. The ceiling on a barbarian strike is much higher than the ceiling on other martial classes if optimized for damage dealing.
I have to say it sounds to me like you haven't even tried to optimize a barbarian. Your stuck in this mindset which I can only surmise is a white room mind set where multiple reactions are easy to set up and your DM doesn't appear to play enemies in a very tactical manner. Not really how it goes on a battlefield or with a DM actively using enemies in an intelligent and tactical fashion. But hey if your DM likes the tactics one-sided and that's how your group likes to play, then have at it.
I know with absolutely certain you are wrong about the giant instinct barbarian. They are a top tier damage dealer. Even with your optimization and tactics, I'd put my money on an optimized giant instinct barbarian being a top tier damage dealer that equals or exceeds anyone but an optimized rogue or fighter in a group.