Opinions: Are Attack-of-Opp Feats Optional or Essential?


Advice

1 to 50 of 144 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Many martial classes have class feats available that mimic the fighter's built-in ability to make attacks of opportunity:

Monk 4 - Stand Still
Ranger 4 - Disrupt Prey
Barbarian 6 - Attack of Opp
Champion 6 - Attack of Opp

These are presented as feats, making them optional choices rather than inherent features of the class... but are they? Is the ability to make AOOs so important that every martial character should always take it?


9 people marked this as a favorite.
Calybos1 wrote:

Many martial classes have class feats available that mimic the fighter's built-in ability to make attacks of opportunity:

Monk 4 - Stand Still
Ranger 4 - Disrupt Prey
Barbarian 6 - Attack of Opp
Champion 6 - Attack of Opp

These are presented as feats, making them optional choices rather than inherent features of the class... but are they? Is the ability to make AOOs so important that every martial character should always take it?

Optional. My swashbuckler is doing just fine in Extinction Curse without AoO.

Don't confuse "powerful" with "essential". This is a collaborative game. Just play what you dig and make it work for your group.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Calybos1 wrote:

Many martial classes have class feats available that mimic the fighter's built-in ability to make attacks of opportunity:

Monk 4 - Stand Still
Ranger 4 - Disrupt Prey
Barbarian 6 - Attack of Opp
Champion 6 - Attack of Opp

These are presented as feats, making them optional choices rather than inherent features of the class... but are they? Is the ability to make AOOs so important that every martial character should always take it?

They’re really strong choices for sure. But their attractiveness can vary depending on your build, so I don’t think they’re mandatory.

For example, if you build a Giant Barbarian, who gets absurd reach, it’s really hard to not pick up AOO. Whereas if you’re an archer Ranger, then Disrupt Prey isn’t that appealing.


12 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Also, if you have a really good reaction routine you might not want to compete with it. You could find yourself taking an AoO against something and wasting your Retributive Strike opportunity on the next enemy's turn.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Depends a lot on your class as well as your GM's and groups style of play.

Ranger Disrupt Prey - only works versus your designated prey and only works in melee, so depending on your style (bow vs melee weapons) and on how many mooks your GM is throwing at you in relation to single, stronger opponents or boss fights the feat will be more or less useful

Monk - only works versus movement and your single attacks are neither especially likely to crit like the Fighters nor as powerful as the Barbarians, so again more or less useful

Champion - AoO might be in conflict with your Champions Reaction, so it is good but not as universally good as for others (see below)

Barbarian - due to the combination of not using reactions as a default and hitting like a truck at full attack bonus I rate AoO the most valuable for this particular class and do consider it an auto-pick at some point of the Barbarians career

On the other hand it also comes down on how good (cautious enemies or metagaming or else) your GM is at avoiding reactions and on how your typical battlefield looks like. Lots of open space = lots of opportunity to avoid AoO, dungeon crawl = you are already happy enough if all heros and enemies fit into a single room and AoO will trigger very likely and very often.


A last important point is level.
At low level, AoO proc quite easily because noone or nearly noone has reach. At high levels, when melee enemies start to have 15ft reach, AoOs proc far less often.
It also depends on your party. If there are already AoOs, then you should be ok. If there are none of them, being able to punish enemies who go for your squishies is important. Also, if you have a character who loves to Trip enemies, AoOs are a must. If you have a character who prefers to Grapple them, it becomes less interesting.

But, anyway, it's a solid choice, one that must be considered at least a minimum.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Optional but strong is the simplest way to think of it.

AoO is one of the strongest reactions and are a chance to do an extra attack with no multiple attack penalty. They are a significant boost to your damage.

Or if the enemy chooses not to move past you then you have protected the rest of you party. So you can control enemy movement to an extent.

Reactions are a resource that you should be doing something useful with as you get one every round. AoO is but one of many reactions. So it is not compulsory even amongst highly optimized builds. There are plenty of others I'd recommend. Like Riposte, the Champion's Cause, Shield Block, Target of Opportunity, Topple Foe, Opportune Backstab, Embrace the Pain. Even spells like Blood Vendetta, Scintillating Safeguard, Arcane Countermeasures.

There is not a lot of point in having too many options for your reaction as they cost in feats to get access to them. Unless you also take a feat that gives you another reaction. But that is eactly what I would do if I wanted to maximise damage output as a martial character.


Gortle wrote:
Unless you also take a feat that gives you another reaction. But that is eactly what I would do if I wanted to maximise damage output as a martial character.

That would be a nice thought process to determine how far you can go with Reactions.

As I clearly agree with you, some reactions (Retributive Strike, Opportune Backstab) can net you one no MAP attack every other rounds. Which is a crazy amount of extra damage.
AoO can be pretty cool, but it won't proc often unless someone else is triggering it for you (a Tripping character).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

AoO comes up reasonably often. Cases like tripping don't need to be someone else, and it isn't that rare for a creature to trigger with movement or manipulate actions at some point in an encounter if creatures aren't being run as mysteriously knowing who has reactions and who doesn't in advance.


My players enjoyed hitting spellcasters in the face with Attack of Opportunity, hard for them to step away if they're flanked.


HammerJack wrote:
AoO comes up reasonably often. Cases like tripping don't need to be someone else, and it isn't that rare for a creature to trigger with movement or manipulate actions at some point in an encounter if creatures aren't being run as mysteriously knowing who has reactions and who doesn't in advance.

You're right, I forgot a word: AoO won't proc as often (as Retributive Strike and Opportune Backstab).

AoO procs once every 5 rounds roughly, if you don't have something specific to make it proc (Reach or tripping friend/critical). It's nice, but it's not that crazy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Don't forget all the shield reactions. I had a Warpriest Bastion where all their reactions were eaten up with raise shield and shield block. While AoO is nice, the higher AC was more important and hits every round instead of occasionally.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I feel its generally important to have at least one reaction. Especially one you're likely to use at least 25-50% of the time. It helps keeps players engaged and alert off their turns; and the one reaction per turn is a resource everyone gets, so its nice to have a way to use it.

There's some like Nimble Dodge, that while a bit annoying in how its timed, that can you almost use every round. A Champion with Shield Block and CHampion's Reaction can basically get one or the other to proc every round, assuming the party isn't spreading out too much.

There's others like a Bard's Counter-Perform, that don't come up often, are gaming changing when they do.

Pure AoO/Stand Still/etc type ones may not proc as often as you hope they do, so its often ok to have a second reaction on that character. Even if you only get one per combat agaisnt intelligent foes, if it causes them to adjust their tactics in response its still a big win and important to keep that in mind when analyzing how much value you get from it


Gortle wrote:
Reactions are a resource that you should be doing something useful with as you get one every round.

This I agree with. You should always find a reliable way to use your reactions: AoO is one option but far from the only one. Myself, it's more important to pick at least one that fits your playstyle if you have multiple options.

HammerJack wrote:
AoO comes up reasonably often.

The rate they trigger is really variable from Dm to Dm and even encounter to encounter. It boils down to how 'smart' the Dm runs your enemies. If you know how your Dm runs things [and what kind of adventure you'll be playing], it can inform you which reaction(s) is best to pick up.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
graystone wrote:


HammerJack wrote:
AoO comes up reasonably often.
The rate they trigger is really variable from Dm to Dm and even encounter to encounter. It boils down to how 'smart' the Dm runs your enemies. If you know how your Dm runs things [and what kind of adventure you'll be playing], it can inform you which reaction(s) is best to pick up.

If creatures are cautious and avoid taking Manipulate actions/Step instead of Stride and the like then you still benefit from the idea of AoO, since your enemies limit themselves around your party positioning. If enemies only play "smart" around people that actually have reactions, your GM is wrong and needs to correct themselves. (Unless, of course, those specific enemies have advance knowledge about the party or they actually spend the actions to Recall Knowledge).


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
HammerJack wrote:
graystone wrote:


HammerJack wrote:
AoO comes up reasonably often.
The rate they trigger is really variable from Dm to Dm and even encounter to encounter. It boils down to how 'smart' the Dm runs your enemies. If you know how your Dm runs things [and what kind of adventure you'll be playing], it can inform you which reaction(s) is best to pick up.
If creatures are cautious and avoid taking Manipulate actions/Step instead of Stride and the like then you still benefit from the idea of AoO, since your enemies limit themselves around your party positioning. If enemies only play "smart" around people that actually have reactions, your GM is wrong and needs to correct themselves. (Unless, of course, those specific enemies have advance knowledge about the party or they actually spend the actions to Recall Knowledge).

Yeah, as a GM I'm telling everyone in this thread: If your GM is having all of the enemies avoid your reaction triggers with supernatural prescience, have a talk with them about it. Chances are, they aren't thinking too hard about it.

In my opinion, enemies shouldn't assume you have an AoO unless they've seen your character use one before, are extra intelligent, or extra cautious.

Liberty's Edge

AoO are soo good for Reach builds I would be tempted to say it does stray over into the "essential" category of their toolkit since passing it up is just such a huge loss for them.


I agree with the view that gaining an AoO is a strong option, but not a necessary one.

Amusingly enough, because AoOs are not the default in PF2, I've found that both PCs and enemies get more chances to actually use them as the trigger comes off as a surprise. (Heck, sometimes as GM I forget a PC has an AoO, and rule that if I forgot - the enemy doesn't change their action to avoid it even if they already knew the PC had that ability.)

On the other side, AoOs are a reaction which you only generally get one of each round. So if you already have access to some other good reactions - then the value of an AoO starts to drop quickly. Even without having another reaction, you're not always guaranteed to get an AoO every combat, or might only get one before enemies realize what you're capable of and avoid triggering it again.

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.

As a GM. I think the strongest part of AoO isn't the additional damage it does (although that certainly IS quite nice), its the control that it exerts.

Intelligent enemies who actually want to live don't LIKE being hit and therefore (once they find out that a character has an AoO) will tend to avoid actions that provoke one. Locking down an opponent is often far more valuable than getting an extra hit in.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
WatersLethe wrote:
In my opinion, enemies shouldn't assume you have an AoO unless they've seen your character use one before, are extra intelligent, or extra cautious.

There's a 2-D matrix where on one axis enemies assume or do not assume AoO, and the other the character does or does not actually have AoO. The problematic part is when there's a diagonal line - enemies only assume PCs have it when the PCs actually have it.

Enemies always assuming PCs have it OR enemies never assuming PCs have it are both solutions. But the more complex (but more fun) solution is to fill in the "other" diagonal - to have some enemies assume PCs have AoO when they don't, and to assume PCs don't have AoO when they do. And, of course, sometimes they guess correctly.

To that end, I tend to have mindless or unintelligent creatures keep provoking - even after they've been hit with an AoO. On the flip side, creatures with AoO themselves (especially humanoid warriors who have been combat-trained to have it) tend to assume PCs have it even when they don't, and take unnecessary steps.


For monks, champions, and rangers it depends on the build. An archer ranger, a hit-and-run monk without reach, and a champion who uses their champion's reaction frequently without investing in extra reactions, etc. obviously don't need or want it.

The one class where I almost always take it is the barbarian, just because the barbarian can become the king of reach, but even without it you still have individual hits that do more damage than anybody else and any opportunity to make them without MAP is golden.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I've been informed that they are mandatory in games that I'm running. I tend to have (most living) enemies leave when they get low, and that irritated a couple of my players to no end.


HammerJack wrote:
graystone wrote:


HammerJack wrote:
AoO comes up reasonably often.
The rate they trigger is really variable from Dm to Dm and even encounter to encounter. It boils down to how 'smart' the Dm runs your enemies. If you know how your Dm runs things [and what kind of adventure you'll be playing], it can inform you which reaction(s) is best to pick up.
If creatures are cautious and avoid taking Manipulate actions/Step instead of Stride and the like then you still benefit from AoO, since your enemies limit their movement around your party positioning. If enemies only play "smart" around people that actually have reactions, your GM is wrong and needs to correct themselves. (Unless, of course, those specific enemies have advance knowledge about the party or they actually spend the actions to Recall Knowledge).

If the creatures are cautious, then the players have control of the encounter. They get to choose when to flank and when to take risks with flanking. Their rear characters no longer need to worry about wasting actions raising shields and they can do other useful things like a ranged attack, intimidate, or an offensive single action spell.

Feats like Shield Stride and Mobility can help a lot too.

Its like playing the game in easy mode.

But many of the other reactions are not in control of the enemy.
The defensive ones are quite reliable. You are generally happy if they don't attack either.
The offensive ones like Oppourtune Backstab. Which is under player (and dice) control. Are a lot of extra attack power when you set it up.

Dataphiles

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Not essential unless you’re going for an optimised build, though I always recommend having something to do with your reaction.

Optimisation wise, you definitely want some way to Strike with your reaction, preferably something that triggers easily (like Paladin reaction or Opportune Backstab) because Strike+Reaction Strike does more damage on average than Strike x3 does. The more reactions you can have and use, the more damage you deal at higher levels. This is why I rank, in terms of Striker effectiveness at higher levels

1. Fighter (3 reactions - Combat Reflexes, Improved Dueling Riposte). Although it’s hard to get off all 3, suggest Improved Knockdown to make AoO more consistent, and Paladin reaction to make Dueling Riposte more consistent (they attack you, riposte, attack allies, paladin).

2. Rogue (2 Reactions - Preparation). Opportune Backstab is one of the easiest reactions to trigger, and preparation just gives you another one. With 1-2 other melees, you can easily be making 3 MAPless attacks per round, dealing basically double the damage of an unoptimised rogue.

3. Swashbuckler (2 reactions - Reflexive Riposte). Swash is a bit more unique because they also have a way to use their damage booster feature more than other martials - bleeding finisher and dual finisher. I rate them below rogue because their extra reaction to hard to consistently use until you get parry and riposte at level 18.

4. Paladin (2 reactions - Divine Reflexes). Yes, the power of a second, easily triggerable reaction really does put them above barbarian.

5. Barbarian (No extra reaction). Unfortunately when playing at high op the lack of extra reaction anywhere in the barbarian’s kit means they fall behind. I suggest using Giant Instinct (for the extra size and reach) with Whirlwind Strike to maximise your number of MAPless attacks, but this leaves you distinctly lacking in the single target game relative to the higher tier martials. Attack of Opportunity as your only reaction isn’t that consistent either, I suggest MCing Champion (Paladin) to get a better reaction, some healing and heavy armor (take Sentinel Ded at 14 to scale).

6. Ranger (no extra reaction). Ranger unfortunately has no way to compete in the late game on the damage front, and their in class reaction is IMO one of the worst if not the worst Strike reaction. Fortunately ranger does have a trick unique to them - support. My optimal build for ranger uses the Monster Hunter line (Don’t care about RK just want the circ bonus) and Shared Prey to scale. I would suggest Champion MC for melee rangers to get a decent Strike reaction. Bow rangers probably want to go Marshal Instead, taking Target of Opportunity as their Strike reaction. I would always recommend starting Precision, retrain to Flurry when you get Shared Prey if your team benefits more from it. You can even consider retrain Outwit for Scare to Death purposes.

7. Monk (no extra reactions). It’s not really meant to do damage. If you, however, want to do damage on a Monk, take Snarecrafter. Snares kinda suck unless your GM lets you set them up beforehand… until you get Lightning Snares, which makes them amazing. Whirling Throw your opponent into a snare for big damage. Large+ Opponents can be thrown into multiple snares at once - enjoy that 96d8 from 4 Instant Evisceration snares.

Liberty's Edge

IMO the essential feats are those that give you an additional reaction of the kind you are already using.


Exocist wrote:


5. Barbarian .... Attack of Opportunity as your only reaction isn’t that consistent either.

Embrace the Pain is a good secondary reaction for Barbarians who are built to grapple, which should be a fair percentage.

Really good comments.

You could include Investigator as a Martial. It has got next to nothing though as its reactions are utility/secondary

But even casters should have a good reaction organised. Probably best not a reaction to do a strike.

I've got some notes about it. Someone needs to do a guide on reactions.....


Themetricsystem wrote:
AoO are soo good for Reach builds I would be tempted to say it does stray over into the "essential" category of their toolkit since passing it up is just such a huge loss for them.

of course, if you use a reach weapon with AoO, then it is like someone that uses a single dagger on a pure strength, no dex build. It raises the question "why?" when you are not using its advantages of finesse, or at least the option to throw it for ranged attacks.

Reach weapons usually have slightly smaller damage dice, specifically because you more than make up for it with AoOs. There are other melee weapons you can use if you aren't using that option, or a similar option (reach paladins).

'Hitting things in a wide area' is such a core part of polearms that it is hard to argue that you shouldn't try to do something with that ability when given the chance.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Exocist wrote:


5. Barbarian .... Attack of Opportunity as your only reaction isn’t that consistent either.

Embrace the Pain is a good secondary reaction for Barbarians who are built to grapple, which should be a fair percentage.

Really good comments.

You could include Investigator as a Martial. It has got next to nothing though as its reactions are utility/secondary

But even casters should have a good reaction organised. Probably best not a reaction to do a strike.

I've got some notes about it. Someone needs to do a guide on reactions.....

Investigator’s best build involves eldritch archer and cleric MC, it uses next to no invest feats.

I was writing a guide on what I consider to be the optimal build for each class here. Work in progress, probably won’t be finished any time soon but all the class feat selections are there.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Optional. In 2e, AoO is very weak compared to 1e.


HeHateMe wrote:
Optional. In 2e, AoO is very weak compared to 1e.

It is good if you have reach, and someone likes to trip. Less so if the GM gives all your enemies Mobility and Kip Up.

All the martials can do it, even Rogues can trip and get reach with a Whip or Scorpion Whip.


Exocist wrote:


Investigator’s best build involves eldritch archer and cleric MC, it uses next to no invest feats.

I was writing a guide on what I consider to be the optimal build for each class here. Work in progress, probably won’t be finished any time soon but all the class feat selections are there.

Thanks.

It's good that you have a strong build suggestion for each class. Though optimal or best is always going to be disputed.
I'll have to put some more suggestions out there.


10 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HeHateMe wrote:
Optional. In 2e, AoO is very weak compared to 1e.

Don't really agree. The mechanic itself is comparatively weaker than the 1e version in vacuum, but because of the way the math and action economy shakes out it's an incredibly powerful damage multiplier when you can get it going.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
HeHateMe wrote:
Optional. In 2e, AoO is very weak compared to 1e.

Can't say I get this idea. AoO should get triggered a lot more often in PF2, and is one of the few things preventing the otherwise much more mobile fighting. And you can use a reach weapon to hit adjacent squares now, too. And that's without getting into weird stuff like drawing a sword or using the parry trait provoking. And finally there's less ways to avoid it-- you need to have specific feats or abilities, as opposed to just making an Acrobatics or Concentration check to cast defensively which anyone can attempt. Oh, and five foot steps now cost actions, so casters and archers actually sacrifice something to step out of range safely. Really, the only drawback I can think of is it eats your reaction, but that's only a problem if you have other reactions.

Now, Combat Reflexes is significantly worse and harder to access, but that's not really a mark against AoO itself. Oh,and I guess you can't use it to abuse trip shenanigans anymore.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Optional. You won't even notice if you don't take them. There are many rounds where nothing is done to activate them.

Scarab Sages

Captain Morgan wrote:
And that's without getting into weird stuff like drawing a sword or using the parry trait provoking.

Parry trait no longer provokes. Errata changed it from an interact action to a single action.

Parry wrote:
This weapon can be used defensively to block attacks. While wielding this weapon, if your proficiency with it is trained or better, you can spend a single action to position your weapon defensively, gaining a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

As for AoOs, I think they are optional, because most everything in 2E is optional. But they are also usually the most powerful option when they become available. Not every build will need one, and if there’s another option you like, take it. There’s nothing wrong with making a choice because it’s fun instead of optimal.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Optional. You won't even notice if you don't take them. There are many rounds where nothing is done to activate them.

Well at this point I will have to have a dig at you for claiming your group are mostly optimizers. If most of you aren't getting into AoO or another good reaction, then you are not close to optimised.

For sure maybe AoO might only trigger 30% of the time, maybe 50% if you work at it with reach and trip. But it's still an extra no penalty attack you are leaving on the table.

Ferious Thune wrote:
There’s nothing wrong with making a choice because it’s fun instead of optimal.

Absolutely. Fun is more important.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The difference between no reaction and reactions is huge.
My ExC players had no reactions on their frontline (ranger and wild druid), by the time they got to the upper levels it was taking them forever to kill even level-2 monsters, often meaning combats were lasting 5+ rounds against multiple enemies unless the oracle/wizard brought out banishment 9.

Meanwhile my AoA players heavily optimised around reactions. Even at later levels, combats would routinely only last 1-2 rounds between Scare to Death, the fighter+rogue consistently getting 3 mapless attacks each (the interaction between prep, backstab, leave an opening and combat reflexes meant that pretty much whatever one of them striked died) and the wizard debuffing/splitting the enemies up into Strike sized chunks.

But it is a point that reaction optimisation requires teamwork. If you have 2 people with AoO, then someone should be tripping. Or using improved knockdown. Or flail/hammer crit spec. If you have Paladin reactions, then people should be in range (and maybe get more of them so the enemies can’t attack anyone without triggering a paladin reaction).


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Also, it's important to remember 2 absolutely awesome reactions that don't cost class feature/feat: Goblin Scuttle and Unexpected Shift.
Goblin Scuttle can be triggered by allies. And a free Step (or even Stride at higher level) is not equivalent to a MAPless attack, but is still very interesting. And Unexpected Shift (and especially Fortutious Shift) gives an excellent defensive ability. There's also Empathetic Plea for the Diplomacy optimized characters who don't want to invest too much in the Shift line.


My overall impression from this thread is that AoO is in a good place. A generally solid option but it ultimately comes down to build, playstyle, encounters etc.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Decimus Drake wrote:
My overall impression from this thread is that AoO is in a good place. A generally solid option but it ultimately comes down to build, playstyle, encounters etc.

Reactions are valuable since they're effectively a bonus action.

Everybody should have some Reactions (even if minor ones).
MAPless attacks are valuable, being a majority of one's offense (if martially inclined) for most builds.
AoOs irregularly make use of one's Reaction to give a valuable benefit to martials engaged in melee. So yeah, they're a gamble for great result.
Yet if one can make AoOs more common (via Reach, Trip, etc.) then AoOs (& the feats for them) become more valuable, very valuable as feats of their level go. But in turn, at higher levels monsters often have abilities that bypass AoOs or resist abilities like Trip.

So one has to gauge %occurrence vs. payoff, and I think other feats compete mainly due to their Reactions being more common as it's hard to get a better payoff (for a martial). Note that AoOs become available when an MCD Champion could pick up a (usually better) Champion's Reactions, and nobody's calling that a must.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:
Decimus Drake wrote:
My overall impression from this thread is that AoO is in a good place. A generally solid option but it ultimately comes down to build, playstyle, encounters etc.

Reactions are valuable since they're effectively a bonus action.

Everybody should have some Reactions (even if minor ones).
MAPless attacks are valuable, being a majority of one's offense (if martially inclined) for most builds.
AoOs irregularly make use of one's Reaction to give a valuable benefit to martials engaged in melee. So yeah, they're a gamble for great result.
Yet if one can make AoOs more common (via Reach, Trip, etc.) then AoOs (& the feats for them) become more valuable, very valuable as feats of their level go. But in turn, at higher levels monsters often have abilities that bypass AoOs or resist abilities like Trip.

So one has to gauge %occurrence vs. payoff, and I think other feats compete mainly due to their Reactions being more common as it's hard to get a better payoff (for a martial). Note that AoOs become available when an MCD Champion could pick up a (usually better) Champion's Reactions, and nobody's calling that a must.

No, but to be fair the champion dedication itself isn't worth it for many builds.

I agree with your overall assessment though.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think that if you've got the champion dedication, everyone would call that reaction a must, though. Champion reactions are so strong that them even being available via dedication is kind of shocking. They are a bigger deal than the champion's armor proficiency progression.

Dataphiles

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

The larger barrier to getting champion reaction isn’t the fact that you need to spend a 2nd feat on the dedication (and lock yourself out of other archetypes). Because the reaction and lay on hands are so strong that losing a 2nd feat for them isn’t that bad.

The problem is the stat requirements, which can lock it out of a lot of builds. I prefer one for all as my reaction of choice for cha casters now, but I used to take Champion on nearly all of them before.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There's also Anathema and the code to consider, though I guess that doesn't cut you off from your reaction, does it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Captain Morgan wrote:
There's also Anathema and the code to consider, though I guess that doesn't cut you off from your reaction, does it?

Well, as long as you don't use your focus pool: if you do have focus spells from outside the champion class, it gets complicated.

Dataphiles

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
There's also Anathema and the code to consider, though I guess that doesn't cut you off from your reaction, does it?

Yeah it only cuts you off from your focus pool (including non champion) and your divine ally.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For what it's worth, taking champion dedication with no intention of following any Edict or Anathema is very nearly the platonic ideal of a case where divine curses are appropriate.


Yes. At my table you wouldn't get away with it. I imagine PFS and other tables are different.


Exocist wrote:
I prefer one for all as my reaction of choice for cha casters now, but I used to take Champion on nearly all of them before.

One for all is a Swashbuckler feat. So its costing you two feats to get. I guess you can aid just about anything this that so you can always find a use for it, but it is using an action as well.

No one that immediately appealed to me as Swashbuckler has two good reactions already.
Hmmm.

Dataphiles

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote:
Exocist wrote:
I prefer one for all as my reaction of choice for cha casters now, but I used to take Champion on nearly all of them before.

One for all is a Swashbuckler feat. So its costing you two feats to get. I guess you can aid just about anything this that so you can always find a use for it, but it is using an action as well.

No one that immediately appealed to me as Swashbuckler has two good reactions already.
Hmmm.

Most casters have bad 2nd and 4th feats, and it’s comparing against Champion which would also need 2 feats to get the reaction (2nd and 6th). (Eventual) consistent +3-4 to a martial’s attack roll for the cost of only a skill is really quite good (it’s great for swashes too - it’s a way to get panache which doesn’t rely on your opponent’s DC, which means you can reliably get panache in solo boss encounters). Casters also don’t have the greatest use for their 3rd action (although stuff like Bon Mot, Intimidate, etc. is quite good) so having a very powerful ability that solves both those issues is pretty good in my opinion.

1 to 50 of 144 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Advice / Opinions: Are Attack-of-Opp Feats Optional or Essential? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.