TSR is back

[EltonJ]

Anyone have an opinion on E. Gary Gygax Jr.'s latest venture?

https://tsr.games/

[Lord Fyre]

EltonJ wrote:

Anyone have an opinion on E. Gary Gygax Jr.'s latest venture?

https://tsr.games/

Tell me more about Giantlands. :)

There is also a rumor that they are looking to revive Star Frontiers!

[Pan]

Yikes, some not so great social media stuff coming out of this...

[thejeff]

Lots of not good and they keep digging themselves deeper.

Mind you, TSR's been back for awhile. So long that there are in fact two of them. :)

One of which has been around for a few years and publishes a new edition of Top Secret. They were the ones who brought out "Gygax Magazine" a few years ago.

The other grabbed the trademark when that company missed a legal deadline and just popped up recently. They may be publishing Giantlands, which has been a work in progress for another company for quite a while now. The talk of Star Frontiers seems overblown - all they own the rights to is the name, so any release would be entirely new and thus likely a long time off.

At the moment, they've got a famous trademark and a son of one of the founding fathers of the hobby and not really much else going for them.

[Rysky]

*passes popcorn around*

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

I'm a pessimist so I'm not expecting much. I do like to be proven wrong in these cases.

[Rysky]

Prepare to be disappointed.

[avr]

8 guys (all male, all white; mostly middle-aged+) are making a LARP system. They may be remaking Star Frontiers. No dates or previews on either, but apparently there was a kickstarter 18 months ago which raised $8,001 (not a typo) and which may be delivering next month for a tabletop version of the first. At least one of them is a white supremacist troglodyte which seems like statistics given their demographics.

Not a lot to get excited about IMO.

[Themetricsystem]

It seems they're targeting the OSR fanbase with their marketing and media presence being run targeting customers of My Pillow and thin-red line flags.

Maybe it will work out for them, after all, they are going out of their way to prove how non-inclusive and hateful they are, that sells well in certain markets and also insulates them from ever being canceled because manufacturing rage and hate is actually part of the goal in establishing that type of brand identity.

[dirtypool]

They are now likening the Twitter backlash against them to the Satanic Panic.

The OTHER TSR that they okeydoked the Trademark from was originally entering into a licensing deal with them for continued use of the name - but tweeted yesterday that they will no longer be licensing anything from the Ernie Gygax TSR. Whether this means they will post a legal appeal about their ownership of the trademark or simply change their name remains to be seen.

Luke Gygax has distanced himself from his brother.

This gets messier and messier the deeper you go.

[Haladir]

This has all the trappings of the attempted revival of Judge's Guild a few years ago, when the son of the original publisher attempted to cash in on his father's TTRPG legacy, and then revealed himself to be a white supremacist: After a brief flash of hype and some preliminary partnership announcements, anyone with a conscience walked away and slammed the door in his face.

This "nu-TSR" seems to be using a logo it doesn't actually have the rights to use (WotC owns it), and while it bought the expired trademark for the name "Star Frontiers", it does NOT own any of the original game's IP (WotC owns that too... and is still selling it on DTRPG.)

Gygax the Lesser is also clearly courting controversy to get social media mentions, and appears to be using this as a marketing ploy to attract the worst elements of the OSR community... like fans of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and the reactionary troglodyte followers of such radioactive personae non grata as Zak S, Venger Satanis, and Grimasaur.

This is a tempest in a teapot and deserves no more of our attention.

[Michael Talley 759]

All I heard was that it was a return to a percentile system. Such as early palladium games or the 80s Marvel Role Playing games.

I'm very meh about new systems, I'll likely give a look through but otherwise.

Like I said, Meh.

[Haladir]

You mean Star Frontiers?

That's always been a percentile system.

And still is: You can buy the 1982 Alpha Dawn rules for characters and 1984 Knight Hawks rules for starships from WotC via DTRPG right now... It's still a totally playable game, although very dated.

[dirtypool]

I think they were referring to Jim Ward's as yet unreleased Giantlands which was being folded in as a "TSR" Product. If it ever releases, it uses a percentile system.

[Michael Talley 759]

Pretty much. I haven't come across any new systems that leave me "Wowwed" and need to buy it right there.

For the most part, Pathfinder's first Edition is still the newest system I enjoyed where I started buying it the moment it came out, and almost all the Adventures.

[Lord Fyre]

Pan wrote:

Yikes, some not so great social media stuff coming out of this...

This feels "astroturf" rather then genuine. Is Hasbro/WoTC trying to stir up trouble for this new TSR?

[dirtypool]

You're suggesting that WoTC somehow convinced Ernie Gygax to go onto a podcast where he was being interviewed about his new company and say bigoted things that would stir up trouble for the company that he was on the podcast to promote?

Then they somehow convinced the companies official Twitter to double down in support of the things Gygax said and then got the dev of the book TSR's shilling for to make anti-trans comments...

I don't understand what WoTC's goal would be there, much less how they could convince three of the 8 senior leadership of the new TSR to sabotage themselves.

[thejeff]

And why would they? These guys are barely even a company. They're not a threat to Hasbro.

[Orville Redenbacher]

Lord Fyre wrote:

Pan wrote:

Yikes, some not so great social media stuff coming out of this...

This feels "astroturf" rather then genuine. Is Hasbro/WoTC trying to stir up trouble for this new TSR?

munch...munch

[Quark Blast]

Haladir wrote:

....

Gygax the Lesser is also clearly courting controversy to get social media mentions, and appears to be using this as a marketing ploy to attract the worst elements of the OSR community... like fans of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and the reactionary troglodyte followers of such radioactive personae non grata as Zak S, Venger Satanis, and Grimasaur.

This is a tempest in a teapot and deserves no more of our attention.

Based on the response in this little teapot of a thread, I'd say kudos to the genius marketing plan*.

* And no, I've no interest in these products or their purveyors. Just noting they are apparently getting precisely the response they want.... at the expense of the people who like them least.
Just say'n.

[Orville Redenbacher]

Quark Blast wrote:

Haladir wrote:

....

Gygax the Lesser is also clearly courting controversy to get social media mentions, and appears to be using this as a marketing ploy to attract the worst elements of the OSR community... like fans of Lamentations of the Flame Princess, and the reactionary troglodyte followers of such radioactive personae non grata as Zak S, Venger Satanis, and Grimasaur.

This is a tempest in a teapot and deserves no more of our attention.

Based on the response in this little teapot of a thread, I'd say kudos to the genius marketing plan*.

* And no, I've no interest in these products or their purveyors. Just noting they are apparently getting precisely the response they want.... at the expense of the people who like them least.
Just say'n.

Looks down at empty bowl...

[dirtypool]

Sure man, Ernie Gygax has been masquerading at cons and on the internet as a crap human with terrible opinions for decades all so that when the preordained moment to capitalize on a trademark filing to use his invented persona to promote a game written by someone who is equally posing as a rank human.

Occam’s Razor. They believe what they’re saying.

Ernie isn’t capable of the kind of 4th Dimensional chess you’re hinting at here.

[Quark Blast]

Aaaand BOOM!, more kudos!
:D

[dirtypool]

Could you please not flood this thread with more of your disingenuously performative pseudo intellectualizing of conspiracy theories?

You already hijacked one thread into your personal blog for crap like that.

[Lord Fyre]

dirtypool wrote:

Could you please not flood this thread with more of your disingenuously performative pseudo intellectualizing of conspiracy theories?

You already hijacked one thread into your personal blog for crap like that.

To whom are you speaking?

[dirtypool]

Lord Fyre wrote:

To whom are you speaking?

Quark Blast.

Though I am not saying that his conspiracy that this is a marketing strategy from TSR is somehow worse than your conspiracy that it is sabotage from Wizards. Neither makes as much sense as the idea that these people mean what they said.

[Goth Guru]

I recently found out Lovecraft was a raging racist so they can expand on that aspect of it. I know I won't buy a module where immigrants turn out to be deep ones. It's an imploding market like Nephilim was.

[thejeff]

dirtypool wrote:

Lord Fyre wrote:

To whom are you speaking?

Quark Blast.

Though I am not saying that his conspiracy that this is a marketing strategy from TSR is somehow worse than your conspiracy that it is sabotage from Wizards. Neither makes as much sense as the idea that these people mean what they said.

It's certainly possible it's both - that they mean what they say and that they're doubling down on it publicly to play victim and appeal to the anti-woke crowd.

It's a short term strategy - burning your bridges with the larger RPG community to generate short term cash. Usually works best if you're running a Kickstarter with no real intent to make a good product.

The amusing thing to me is the only reason we're talking about this isn't even the controversy, it's the branding. They sniped the TSR trademark and have one of Gygax's kids and therefore somehow they're significant. They don't even have a product to sell yet. The only thing they might have is an unfinished game another group was working on. It's like the words "Gygax" and "TSR" are magic even without any of the creative talent. People are really speculating that WoTC is scared of them.

[Fumarole]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the theme park yet.

[Orville Redenbacher]

thejeff wrote:

It's a short term strategy - burning your bridges with the larger RPG community to generate short term cash. Usually works best if you're running a Kickstarter with no real intent to make a good product.

Cart before the horse on this one.

[dirtypool]

I'll admit that it is entirely likely that after Gygax's comments on the podcast TSR saw clickthrough on their website and Twitter and decided to keep the outrage train going in an attempt to turn bad press into good dollars.

I don't believe that this was somehow premeditated in some Machiavellian attempt to manipulate the news cycle. Nor do I believe that it is in fact the shadowy act of a WoTC trying to strangle the nascent TSR3.0 in its crib.

The notion that WoTC is somehow "scared" of TSR is something I've only encountered in this thread.

While some people are only talking about this controversy because it's TSR, there are some of us who are only talking about TSR because of this controversy.

When the other TSR formed and partnered with Luke and Ernie to publish Gygax magazine - I never once discussed it on a public forum, and I don't recall there being anything about it here (though I may be wrong on that one.)

[Limeylongears]

I first came across this on an AD&D group on Facebook.

If they were producing cool OSR stuff, I'd be all over it, but since they're not, and are merely winding people up on social media instead, I shall steer very well clear of them.

[Michael Talley 759]

Limeylongears wrote:

I first came across this on an AD&D group on Facebook.

If they were producing cool OSR stuff, I'd be all over it, but since they're not, and are merely winding people up on social media instead, I shall steer very well clear of them.

Makes sense, best to wait and see if they make anything good before buying into anything.

[thejeff]

Fumarole wrote:

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the theme park yet.

That's because there isn't a theme park.

Though I guess there's supposed to be. Someday. Somehow.

I'm not even sure what Giantlands is supposed to be. Other than way to ambitious.

[thejeff]

Now Ernie Gygax has put out a non-apology apology that starts out by saying he never meant to hurt anyone and then goes into a dozen or so tweets about how he was poor and bullied back in school.

Weird

[Tender Tendrils]

I don't think whether their stuff is good or not really matters, unlike say, enjoying the works of HP Lovecraft as someone previously mentioned, if you buy Ernie's books you are contributing money and success to someone who is very much still alive and will use that platform to actively hurt people, and sending the message that you don't care if vulnerable people continue to be made to feel unsafe.

The TTRPG culture has come a loooong way in the past decade, from being a space where people like me could not participate in due to how pervasively unsafe and uncomfortable it was, to being a space that is pretty inclusive, and voting with your wallet is really important to keep us from backsliding and losing that progress.

[dirtypool]

Interesting that he apologizes to those he might have offended of different races, creeds, and colors - but not to those of different sexuality or gender identities which is where the controversial comments really snowballed thanks to Jim Ward's response.

[Orville Redenbacher]

thejeff wrote:

Now Ernie Gygax has put out a non-apology apology that starts out by saying he never meant to hurt anyone and then goes into a dozen or so tweets about how he was poor and bullied back in school.

Weird

You forgot the part where he wanted to trade his violin for a Thompson sub-machine gun as a teen...

[thejeff]

Orville Redenbacher wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Now Ernie Gygax has put out a non-apology apology that starts out by saying he never meant to hurt anyone and then goes into a dozen or so tweets about how he was poor and bullied back in school.

Weird

You forgot the part where he wanted to trade his violin for a Thompson sub-machine gun as a teen...

Yeah. I suspect I might have had similar feelings at times. But it was a long time ago and I don't dwell on them decades later.

[thejeff]

Tender Tendrils wrote:

I don't think whether their stuff is good or not really matters, unlike say, enjoying the works of HP Lovecraft as someone previously mentioned, if you buy Ernie's books you are contributing money and success to someone who is very much still alive and will use that platform to actively hurt people, and sending the message that you don't care if vulnerable people continue to be made to feel unsafe.

The TTRPG culture has come a loooong way in the past decade, from being a space where people like me could not participate in due to how pervasively unsafe and uncomfortable it was, to being a space that is pretty inclusive, and voting with your wallet is really important to keep us from backsliding and losing that progress.

And that's exactly the kind of politics they want to keep out of gaming.

Which is actually a very clever slogan for them to run with, since if you don't hear the dog whistle, it seems reasonable. Who wants to bog down a fun game with politics, right?

[Freehold DM]

Goth Guru wrote:

I recently found out Lovecraft was a raging racist so they can expand on that aspect of it. I know I won't buy a module where immigrants turn out to be deep ones. It's an imploding market like Nephilim was.

mm. I have some feelings about that myself, as I love Lovecraftian stuff but I am literally the living embodiment of what Lovecraft hated.

[Mark Hoover 330]

So, I'm new to all of this. I just read a couple of articles and it seems like, early on, there was actual debate over whether or not Luke G. was involved? Of all the different controversies, I feel like that one should never have been.

Also, I'm not following the legal here. So, TSR was held as a trademark by Jayson Eliot, but he let it lapse... or he willingly transferred it? And now he's getting some minor nominal fee that he did, or DIDN'T agree to, or is it the other way around; Ernie and crew are charging Mr Eliot a fee?

And lastly... do we NEED another OSR product out there? Especially one that specifically espouses to go the opposite route of "woke" gender identity politics among other things? Like, I'm not trying to get on a high horse here, but I'd think from a business standpoint such a niche business model is kind of doomed to failure, no?

[Themetricsystem]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

... I'd think from a business standpoint such a niche business model is kind of doomed to failure, no?

One would hope but sometimes all it takes for a product to make money for the owners is to motivate a loyal group of customers who are willing to "buy the culture" over the actual product, only time will tell in the end through.

[thejeff]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

So, I'm new to all of this. I just read a couple of articles and it seems like, early on, there was actual debate over whether or not Luke G. was involved? Of all the different controversies, I feel like that one should never have been.

Also, I'm not following the legal here. So, TSR was held as a trademark by Jayson Eliot, but he let it lapse... or he willingly transferred it? And now he's getting some minor nominal fee that he did, or DIDN'T agree to, or is it the other way around; Ernie and crew are charging Mr Eliot a fee?

And lastly... do we NEED another OSR product out there? Especially one that specifically espouses to go the opposite route of "woke" gender identity politics among other things? Like, I'm not trying to get on a high horse here, but I'd think from a business standpoint such a niche business model is kind of doomed to failure, no?

Eliot's version of TSR Games let the trademark lapse and the other group grabbed it. They were licensing it back to Eliot's TSR, but Eliot has said in the wake of this kerfluffle that they're not going to license anything from the other TSR. Nothing specifically about the name, but that would seem to be included.

As a business model for the long term I think it's doomed, but it's quite possible they can bring in some quick cash by monetizing the anti-woke crowd. I'm not sure what else they've got as a business model. They've got the Gygax and TSR names and an agreement to publish this Giantlands project, though it's not clear what state that's in. They've got essentially no one involved with any game development credentials and they're in the process of burning bridges with anyone or any group that has any and might want to work with them.

[Quark Blast]

I sometimes wonder if the "anti-woke" crowd is bigger than we think. I had an internship a couple of years back and there was a company-wide email from the CEO strongly suggesting everyone take advantage of a series of seminars (pre-pandemic Zoom), then a follow-up company-wide email from the head of HR saying the same thing, and then finally a boilerplate email from lower level managers to their mooks "suggesting" it yet again. The day of the seminar I finally got around to signing up and noticed that the signup system showed one how many seats were remaining out of 500 in each of the dozens of talks/trainings. I did some easy math, and made the assumption that no one signed up for more than one class (certainly NOT the case), and bracketed the participation rate between 0.5% and 1.7%.

I think most people are in the burnout stage for these issues. For myself I try to have energy to "fight" the battles that have the potential to matter and ignore the rest (e.g. all of the pro sports issues).

[Orville Redenbacher]

Anti-woke is just the same anti-PC crowd. Every so often, they have to come up with a new name to whip em up again.

[BlackoCatto]

Freehold DM wrote:

Goth Guru wrote:

I recently found out Lovecraft was a raging racist so they can expand on that aspect of it. I know I won't buy a module where immigrants turn out to be deep ones. It's an imploding market like Nephilim was.

mm. I have some feelings about that myself, as I love Lovecraftian stuff but I am literally the living embodiment of what Lovecraft hated.

That doesn't really narrow it down at all.

[captain yesterday]

I don't see why any of this matters as TSR hasn't been relevant since the 80s and was poorly managed even in it's hay day.

[BlackoCatto]

It matters enough that people are complaining about it atm in today's outrage culture and that we are still playing a game it layed the ground work for.

Also I wouldn't say it was just mismanaged. Takeovers, manipulation, all sorts of crazy stuff happened at TSR that would cause its end.

[Albatoonoe]

My first thought was "Okay, I guess." and then I read the comments. This is a hell of a rabbithole.