A sort of continuation of my Last thread I am wondering if I can work towards two bonus feats at the same time?
Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.
Say the two feats I want have a level 9 and level 12 character prerequisite.
Could I use the first 3 levels putting the FC bonus towards the level 12 bonus.
Levels 4 to 9 for the level 9 required feat
And then levels 10,11, & 12 finishing off the level 12 feat.
Means at levels 4,5,6,7, & 8 I have my Favored Class Bonus working towards two seperate bonus feats
I don't think so, but Warpriests get bonus feats at level 9 and level 12 anyway (and one of your bonus feats would come online at level 12 as well).
So you'd be getting 2 feats at level 9 (one normal feat that everyone gets and one Warpriest bonus feat), and 2 feats at level 12 (one Warpriest bonus feat and one FCB bonus feat). Do you need more than that?
It's not clear that the bonus combat feats warpriests can get from FCB are part of their bonus feats class feature at all. I mean, via Occam's razor I could see it, but it's not specified anywhere and the wording isn't the same.
If they are the same in your game and your game also uses fractional BAB/saves (as a precedent) you might make an argument for it, but by RAW? No.
It's not clear that the bonus combat feats warpriests can get from FCB are part of their bonus feats class feature at all. I mean, via Occam's razor I could see it, but it's not specified anywhere and the wording isn't the same.
I mean, I think the GM would have to be reading it the harshest way to have them NOT be part of your bonus feats class feature ...
Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and Hit Dice) for the purpose of qualifying for these feats. Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
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Favored Class Options
Human : Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.
What is the point of doing so? If you are looking to use the bonus feats for something you don’t qualify for at the level you gain the feat you can always use the retraining rules to swap them out when you reach the appropriate level. When you gain the feat pick up something useful for that level and then train it out when you qualify for the one you want.
What is the point of doing so? If you are looking to use the bonus feats for something you don’t qualify for at the level you gain the feat you can always use the retraining rules to swap them out when you reach the appropriate level. When you gain the feat pick up something useful for that level and then train it out when you qualify for the one you want.
Not playing with retraining rules/Don't have the downtime to retrain
It's not clear that the bonus combat feats warpriests can get from FCB are part of their bonus feats class feature at all. I mean, via Occam's razor I could see it, but it's not specified anywhere and the wording isn't the same.I mean, I think the GM would have to be reading it the harshest way to have them NOT be part of your bonus feats class feature ...
Bonus Feats: At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, a warpriest gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats. The warpriest must meet the prerequisites for these feats, but he treats his warpriest level as his base attack bonus (in addition to base attack bonuses gained from other classes and Hit Dice) for the purpose of qualifying for these feats. Finally, for the purposes of these feats, the warpriest can select feats that have a minimum number of fighter levels as a prerequisite, treating his warpriest level as his fighter level.
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Favored Class Options
Human : Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.
Well, note the total lack of reference to prereqs in the alternate FCB. Anyway, the way I presented it was you start getting the FCB at level 1, or it's part of the bonus feats class feature not both - and you know what? People prefer the former in my experience.
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It's not clear that the bonus combat feats warpriests can get from FCB are part of their bonus feats class feature at all. I mean, via Occam's razor I could see it, but it's not specified anywhere and the wording isn't the same.
If they are the same in your game and your game also uses fractional BAB/saves (as a precedent) you might make an argument for it, but by RAW? No.
I mean, I think the GM would have to be reading it the harshest way to have them NOT be part of your bonus feats class feature ...
Generally, I am not lenient when reading rules, but I have a hard time seeing how someone can read the Favored class option as granting something different from the related class Bonus feat.
The book that introduced the Racial Favored Class Bonus, the ARG, hadn't fractional feat bonuses, so it considered only fractional bonuses to a roll, but the ACG has a text that I think is relevant:
Unlike those general rewards, the alternate favored class options speak directly to the features of specific classes and the general tendencies of various races.
So, by spending Warpriest FCBs to get a Bonus feat, you are actually getting the specific Bonus feat feature of the class, with all that it entails. As the FCB specific "bonus combat feat.", even if some archetype allows you to get bonus feats that aren't combat feat, you are still limited to combat feat.
A sort of continuation of my Last thread I am wondering if I can work towards two bonus feats at the same time?
Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.Say the two feats I want have a level 9 and level 12 character prerequisite.
Could I use the first 3 levels putting the FC bonus towards the level 12 bonus.
Levels 4 to 9 for the level 9 required feat
And then levels 10,11, & 12 finishing off the level 12 feat.Means at levels 4,5,6,7, & 8 I have my Favored Class Bonus working towards two seperate bonus feats
I don't think you can do that. You aren't selecting "FCB Combat feat named XX" when taking the Favored Class Bonus, you are selecting: "FCB, class feature Bonus feat". When you have accumulated 6/6 of the feature you get to select and must select a bonus feat. Until that point, you aren't forced to select the feat, so you can select any of the Bonus feat available when you get it.
You GM can allow it, as the Racial FCBs are an optional rule that explicitly says "As with any alternate or optional rule, consult with your GM to determine whether exchanging normal favored class benefits for those in this chapter will be allowed."
Ok here's a thought : Does it actually say in the rules that you must choose a feat at the level when you aquire one? Or can you save feats until they're useful?
I just looked HERE and couldn't see anything, and I'm honestly not sure where else to look online .
Again this might be the simplest question ever asked here, but ... is it?
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Ok here's a thought : Does it actually say in the rules that you must choose a feat at the level when you aquire one? Or can you save feats until they're useful?
I just looked HERE and couldn't see anything, and I'm honestly not sure where else to look online .
Again this might be the simplest question ever asked here, but ... is it?
It is in one of those pages we often forget exist:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level’s class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
Adding FCB is part of the third step, adding a Bonus feat granted from the class, AFAIK, can be done as part of the third step or as part of the final step, as you prefer, but is something you do immediately when gaining a level.
Favored Class Bonuses are NOT class features.
They have no prerequisites apart from the race and they are gained when first getting a new class level at a new character level.
Retraining a class level does not change a Favored Class Bonus either, it sticks, even if you have no levels in that class any longer.
A sort of continuation of my Last thread I am wondering if I can work towards two bonus feats at the same time?
Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.
Yes. Why wouldn't that be possible? There is no restriction or requirement for you to choose these fractions consecutively or pool them together at every new instance. You could take this FCB 20 times without ever putting 6 of them together. It would be something different if it employed language like "gain additional", as you would be required to add them right away, like gaining additional hit points. But the written text says no such thing (however, written text never stops others from hallucinating about reading things that aren't actually written there ^^).
And from a gaming point of view, all that happens is that you play 3+ levels without a feat, that you could have gotten early and retrained later. This only weakens your player character for 3+ levels. You're also allowed to have your character cut off her limbs or stab his eyes out. It's your choice.
Ok here's a thought : Does it actually say in the rules that you must choose a feat at the level when you aquire one? Or can you save feats until they're useful?
I haven't come across such a rule for feats in general, you add them during character advancement but are not rule-wise required to select one. However, each bonus feat gained from class levels has its own description and therefore some of those might have to be chosen at that level.
In the end it's the same thing as said above: Not getting something you are entitled to and could retrain later anyway, only serves to weaken your character in the meantime.
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Favored Class Bonuses are NOT class features.
They have no prerequisites apart from the race and they are gained when first getting a new class level at a new character level.
Race and a new level in the favorite class. If you don't consider that a class feature ...
Retraining a class level does not change a Favored Class Bonus either, it sticks, even if you have no levels in that class any longer.
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class.
Favored Class
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level
(including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
The FCB is something that you get as a benefit of gaining a level and you lose when you retrain that level.
Race and a new level in the favorite class. If you don't consider that a class feature ...
Favorite Classes are selected at character creation without regard to your actual class. The first class at character creation does not need to be the same as the favorite class. That's why you can pick for example Wizard as your favorite class, but start your character as a Rogue (for example when you want to play an Arcane Trickster in the long term).
It would be literally insane to claim that your choice of "Favorite Class (Wizard)" were a Rogue class feature. FCBs are character features, like feats gained at odd character levels. The Favored Class Bonuses are only triggered by getting a new class level in that class, but they aren't part of the class itself. As such, they aren't class features.
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Race and a new level in the favorite class. If you don't consider that a class feature ...Favorite Classes are selected at character creation without regard to your actual class. The first class at character creation does not need to be the same as the favorite class. That's why you can pick for example Wizard as your favorite class, but start your character as a Rogue (for example when you want to play an Arcane Trickster in the long term).
It would be literally insane to claim that your choice of "Favorite Class (Wizard)" were a Rogue class feature. FCBs are character features, like feats gained at odd character levels. The Favored Class Bonuses are only triggered by getting a new class level in that class, but they aren't part of the class itself. As such, they aren't class features.
Where have you that got "FCB is a class feature" as "FCB is a class feature of all your classes"? FCB is a class feature of the favored class. it is granted by a level on the favored class, it is lost when you lose a level in the favored class, it is unaffected by changes in a not favored class.
BTW: favorite class bonuses are totally unaffected by your character level, they are linked to your class level in a specific class.
Favored Class
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level. Prestige classes (see Chapter 11) can never be a favored class.
Every rule you quoted says exactly what I said, while it contradicts your position.
Favored Class is not a class feature, it's a character feature.
It is linked to character level, not class level.
If it's linked to character level, not class level how many times does a rogue 3 get to select a favored class bonus if wizard is their favored class?
Depends on how many Wizard levels he's had.
Careful reading is really important here. Hallucinating is bad.
Favorite Class is a character feature, just like feats gained at odd character levels or ability score increases every 4 character levels or experience points required for level-up or wealth by level...
If a level 4 character with 4 levels in Rogue, for example, retrains his highest Rogue-level to a Wizard-level, he keeps the Ability Score Increase original chosen upon taking his 4th character level (e.g. DEX). He can retrain the ASI separately to INT, if he wants to, but since it's not part of his class - but his character - it is not automatically changed upon changing his class level to Wizard.
The rules even give that as an explicit example:
When you retrain a class level, you lose all the benefits of the highest level you have in that class. You immediately select a different class, add a level in that class, and gain all the benefits of that new class level.
This retraining does not allow you to reselect the feats your character gains at odd levels or the ability score increases your character gains every four levels (though you can retrain those options separately). If retraining a class level means you no longer qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other ability you have, you can’t use that feat, prestige class, or ability until you meet the qualifications again. (You can still retrain that feat, prestige class, or other ability.)
These things (FCB, ASI, Feats, WBL, ...)aren't linked to class levels. They aren't class features. They are listed under Character Advancement before classes are even introduced in the core rule book. Is this so hard to grasp?
Ok I really didn't mean to start this argument and I don't think it's super relevant to the thread.
Thank you Diego for finding the rule, it does indeed look like you take the feat at the level it becomes available. If retraining is not an option then it looka like Minigiant is out of luck.
If favored class bonus is not treated as a class feature, you are opening up the possibility of abuse by indefinite stacking of favored class bonuses by repeatedly retraining into and out of a level in your favored class. The only logical way to prevent this is for the most recent favored class bonus choice to be lost whenever you retrain out of a level in a favored class.
Not that this would apy here, but what if you qualified for two different racial FCBs that gave the same fractional new feature effect? Would those stack always, never, or optionally?
E.g., Human Rogue with Racial Heritage: Changeling taking 1/6ths of a Rogue Talent from both races, alternating.
You would pick one or the other for each level, so maybe this is a way to delay getting said bonus feats until you reach the level prerequisite, but for practical purposes it shouldn't.
@Mr.Charisma (and I think someone else I can't find atm), keep in mind that retraining a feat doesn't change the reality of when it was taken. You can't take a feat in a X-level slot if it requires a later level prerequisite (either a feat you took at a later level, or a class level prerequisite of a number higher than you had at that point). E.g. a fighter who took cleave at level 3 can't swap it out for weapon specialization in that position, although he might be able to push something from level 4 on back down into that slot and then put specialization in some other slot.
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@Mr.Charisma (and I think someone else I can't find atm), keep in mind that retraining a feat doesn't change the reality of when it was taken. You can't take a feat in a X-level slot if it requires a later level prerequisite (either a feat you took at a later level, or a class level prerequisite of a number higher than you had at that point). E.g. a fighter who took cleave at level 3 can't swap it out for weapon specialization in that position, although he might be able to push something from level 4 on back down into that slot and then put specialization in some other slot.
Actually, you can retrain a feat and replace it with one with higher prerequisites, as long as you meet them.
Retraining: Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn't qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?
Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.
For example, if you are a 3rd-level rogue who took Improved Initiative at 1st level, you can retrain that feat and replace it with Weapon Focus. Even though Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of "base attack bonus +1" (which means you couldn't take it as a 1st-level rogue), it is a valid feat for your current level (3rd), and is therefore a valid choice for retraining.
(Note: Likewise, the fighter class ability to retrain fighter bonus feats does not require you to meet all of the new feat's prerequisites at the level you originally gained the feat.)
posted October 2013 | back to top
Careful reading is really important here. Hallucinating is bad.
Favorite Class is a character feature, just like feats gained at odd character levels or ability score increases every 4 character levels or experience points required for level-up or wealth by level...
Favored Class is a character feature sure... but only so far as your choice of what class is your favored class. Favored Class Bonuses however are class features of the chosen favored class.
Your choice of Wizard as your favored class as a level 1 Rogue is a character feature. When you take your first level of wizard and get your first FCB, that FCB is a wizard class feature, not a character feature.
@Mr.Charisma (and I think someone else I can't find atm), keep in mind that retraining a feat doesn't change the reality of when it was taken. You can't take a feat in a X-level slot if it requires a later level prerequisite (either a feat you took at a later level, or a class level prerequisite of a number higher than you had at that point). E.g. a fighter who took cleave at level 3 can't swap it out for weapon specialization in that position, although he might be able to push something from level 4 on back down into that slot and then put specialization in some other slot.Actually, you can retrain a feat and replace it with one with higher prerequisites, as long as you meet them.
Retraining: Can I retrain a feat to replace it with a feat I didn't qualify for at the level I originally gained that feat?
Yes. As long as the new feat is a valid feat for your current character, you can retrain the old feat and replace it with the new feat.
For example, if you are a 3rd-level rogue who took Improved Initiative at 1st level, you can retrain that feat and replace it with Weapon Focus. Even though Weapon Focus has a prerequisite of "base attack bonus +1" (which means you couldn't take it as a 1st-level rogue), it is a valid feat for your current level (3rd), and is therefore a valid choice for retraining.
(Note: Likewise, the fighter class ability to retrain fighter bonus feats does not require you to meet all of the new feat's prerequisites at the level you originally gained the feat.)
posted October 2013 | back to top
Then how does that reconcile with making a new character at level X, do you just treat all feats as not having a prerequisite if said prerequisite is below where you are starting out (e.g. cavalier taking outflank at level one as long as they start at level 6+)? Do you subtract from wealth by level for the assumed retraining and at what level do you assume you took the retraining?
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Then how does that reconcile with making a new character at level X, do you just treat all feats as not having a prerequisite if said prerequisite is below where you are starting out (e.g. cavalier taking outflank at level one as long as they start at level 6+)? Do you subtract from wealth by level for the assumed retraining and at what level do you assume you took the retraining?
I don't recall an official rule about making a character at above level 1. Some guideline, maybe, but outside PFS I don't think there is anything.
As a GM I would ask the players to make the character as if he had grown organically from level 1, not as he had sprouted bully bloomed at level 10. I am strict with retraining use, so they would have little chance of retraining, but for what I use, yes, the character would have to spend the resources needed to retrain.
I allow easy and low/no-cost retraining of feats that have seen little or no use and show to be mostly useless, while I frown and make it hard to retrain feats that were heavily used for several levels, even if at higher levels they become less useful.
Retraining is an optional rule with more optional rules on what is allowed, not something automatically available.
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Careful reading is really important here. Hallucinating is bad.
Favorite Class is a character feature, just like feats gained at odd character levels or ability score increases every 4 character levels or experience points required for level-up or wealth by level...
Favored Class is a character feature sure... but only so far as your choice of what class is your favored class. Favored Class Bonuses however are class features of the chosen favored class.
Your choice of Wizard as your favored class as a level 1 Rogue is a character feature. When you take your first level of wizard and get your first FCB, that FCB is a wizard class feature, not a character feature.
Thanks, I didn't realize that Theaitetos was conflating Favorite Class and Favorite Class Bonuses.
If favored class bonus is not treated as a class feature, you are opening up the possibility of abuse by indefinite stacking of favored class bonuses by repeatedly retraining into and out of a level in your favored class.
No, that's why I keep telling people that Favored Class Bonuses are linked to character level: Once you have your FCB for your 3rd character level, you don't get another FCB for your 3rd character level no matter how often you retrain your class levels at this point.
And the rules keep talking about character, not class, in that regard. FCB are a character feature, linked to character level, that only gets triggered by getting a level in your favorite class.
Favored Class is a character feature sure... but only so far as your choice of what class is your favored class. Favored Class Bonuses however are class features of the chosen favored class.
And no, FCB are not a class feature, these are just sub-features of the Favored Class ability, described by the Favored Class ability, subject to the rules of the Favored Class ability (with additional options available for different races):
Favored Class
Each character begins play with a single favored class of his choosing—typically, this is the same class as the one he chooses at 1st level. Whenever a character gains a level in his favored class, he receives either + 1 hit point or + 1 skill rank. The choice of favored class cannot be changed once the character is created, and the choice of gaining a hit point or a skill rank each time a character gains a level (including his first level) cannot be changed once made for a particular level.
It's really not that hard to understand, if you are willing to put the time into carefully reading the rules instead of hallucinating things that aren't written anywhere.
Seriously, does it say anywhere that Favored Class Bonuses are a class feature? No, it doesn't. Then how do people come up with such nonsense? My only explanation is hallucination. But maybe it's a delusion? I don't know, I'm not an expert in psychology, but I'm an expert in reading sterile rule texts.
p.s.: The term "Favored Class Bonus" isn't even a proper rule term to begin with, it's just a colloquially used term. You can't find it anywhere in the Core Rulebook. The only times you can find it is as part of the headline introducing racial options for the Favored Class ability (APG) and in two or three setting books, after the authors used the colloquial term as if it were a proper rules term.
Theaitetos, sure your anger is entirely about the topic?
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In most cases, these benefits are gained on a level-by level basis—your character gains the specified incremental benefit each time she gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, these benefits always stack with themselves. For example, a human with paladin as a favored class may choose to gain 1 point of energy resistance each time she gains a level; choosing this benefit twice increases this resistance bonus to 2, 10 times raises it to 10, and so on. In some cases this benefit may eventually hit a fixed numerical limit, after which selecting that favored class benefit has no effect. Of course, you can still select the bonus hit point or skill rank as your favored class benefit, so there is always a reward for sticking with a favored class. Finally, some of these alternate favored class benefits only add +1/2, +1/3, +1/4, or +1/6 to a roll (rather than +1) each time the benefit is selected; when applying this result to the die roll, round down (minimum 0). For example, a dwarf with rogue as his favored class adds +1/2 to his trap sense ability regarding stone traps each time he selects the alternate rogue favored class benefit; though this means the net effect is +0 after selecting it once (because +1/2 rounds down to +0), after 20 levels this benefit gives the dwarf a +10 bonus to his trap sense (in addition to the base value from being a 20th-level rogue).
FCB effectively is Favored Class Benefit, but unless you are saying that the whole section of the APG that gives the Racial Favored Classes benefits isn't a rule (and then the FCB don't exist), it is a game rule.
And that game rule says explicitly: "reward for sticking with a favored class", not "reward for sticking with a character level".
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There’s actually a fair number of people who would argue that FCBs that add spells known don’t add them to you spell list (because they aren’t a class feature) so many FCBs don’t work at all.Theaitetos, let's say I have a sorcerer 4, oracle 4, mystictheurge 10, and gain a level. I take a level of sorcerer, which is my favored class. I'm a human so I tale their favored class bonus to get an extra spell known. What class spell slots can be used to cast that spell?
If FCB is a class feature, then all abilities reference the features of that class, so the sorcerer FCB adds the spell to my sorcerer spells known and I would have to use sorcerer spell slots. But if it isn't class specific, I have 2 "spells known" features so I get to pick, right?
The FBCs that add spell know lets you pick only a spell from your spell list, so I don't see what is the problem.
Oracle: Add one spell known from the oracle spell list.
This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the oracle can cast.
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Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.
You don't need to add them to your spell list, because they are already there.
If you want to keep arguing about FCB being a class feature ...
CLICK HERE
Seriously, there's more in this thread about this argument than about helping the OP at this point.
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A sort of continuation of my Last thread I am wondering if I can work towards two bonus feats at the same time?
Gain 1/6 of a new bonus combat feat.Say the two feats I want have a level 9 and level 12 character prerequisite.
Could I use the first 3 levels putting the FC bonus towards the level 12 bonus.
Levels 4 to 9 for the level 9 required feat
And then levels 10,11, & 12 finishing off the level 12 feat.Means at levels 4,5,6,7, & 8 I have my Favored Class Bonus working towards two seperate bonus feats
no. you dont get "5/6 towards one feat, 2/3 towards another"
once you've taken the 1/6 of a feat 6 times, you get a feat. before that you dont declare its going toward this or that feat. you cant have 5/6 of 2 feats at 10th level. you can have the extra feat and 4/6 (i know 2/3 reduced fraction) of the way to the next FCB feat