I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that your GM is correct, as Spell-Combat says it functions much like two-weapon fighting, with the spell being in your off-hand.
You can still just use your Str when attacking with a whip though and you might as well as Magus can eventually wear heavy armor which negates a lot of the use of a high dexterity.
The only regularly available feat for dexterity to damage that works with magus is Dervish Dance. So, a lot of Magi tend to go with scimitar.
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and delivery that spell as touch on 15 ft. (use spell strike ability).
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.
You make a melee attack, not a touch attack when using Spellstrike.
If you want to make a touch attack you can't use a weapon.
Hola, fellows.
I'm new-boy in Pathfinder and need help in creation of my first personage...
I want magus with whip. But my grampy GM said that this my Dexterity+Int based build don't be working.I've think about magus with feat Slashing grace (that make more chance for attack succeeds for high Dex and deal more damage for high Int) that can on one turn by one attack-action make whip strike + cast spell (use free second hand by spell combat ability) and delivery that spell as touch on 15 ft. (use spell strike ability).
But feat Slashing grace said that it's "not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied".Is this right and can somebody help me with this build?
You need one more feat: Two Weapon Grace.
This feat unlocks the ability to use Fencing Grace (rapiers), Starry Grace (star knives), and/or Slashing Grace feats while dual-wielding - and since spell combat follows the rules of dual-wielding, this should fix the problem.
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Hola, fellows.
I'm new-boy in Pathfinder and need help in creation of my first personage...
I want magus with whip. But my grampy GM said that this my Dexterity+Int based build don't be working.I've think about magus with feat Slashing grace (that make more chance for attack succeeds for high Dex and deal more damage for high Int) that can on one turn by one attack-action make whip strike + cast spell (use free second hand by spell combat ability) and delivery that spell as touch on 15 ft. (use spell strike ability).
But feat Slashing grace said that it's "not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied".Is this right and can somebody help me with this build?
You need one more feat: Two Weapon Grace.
This feat unlocks the ability to use Fencing Grace (rapiers), Starry Grace (star knives), and/or Slashing Grace feats while dual-wielding - and since spell combat follows the rules of dual-wielding, this will solve your build's current problem. (:
Doesn't work.
Spell combat isn't actually dual wielding and nothing that effects twf applies
Hola, fellows.
I'm new-boy in Pathfinder and need help in creation of my first personage...
I want magus with whip. But my grampy GM said that this my Dexterity+Int based build don't be working.I've think about magus with feat Slashing grace (that make more chance for attack succeeds for high Dex and deal more damage for high Int) that can on one turn by one attack-action make whip strike + cast spell (use free second hand by spell combat ability) and delivery that spell as touch on 15 ft. (use spell strike ability).
But feat Slashing grace said that it's "not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied".Is this right and can somebody help me with this build?
You need one more feat: Two Weapon Grace.
This feat unlocks the ability to use Fencing Grace (rapiers), Starry Grace (star knives), and/or Slashing Grace feats while dual-wielding - and since spell combat follows the rules of dual-wielding, this will solve your build's current problem. (:
Doesn't work.
Spell combat isn't actually dual wielding and nothing that effects twf applies
What exactly stops it from working? (Actually curious.)
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
no, you only take the -2 spell combat penalty.
it functions like two-weapon fighting in that you have an off-hand attack (a spell), but that's about it.
The problem is that it's "like" two weapon fighting, but it's not always clear how it's "not like" two weapon fighting. Basically the designers said it was or wasn't as they wanted to "balance" options.
Hola, fellows.
I'm new-boy in Pathfinder and need help in creation of my first personage...
I want magus with whip. But my grampy GM said that this my Dexterity+Int based build don't be working.I've think about magus with feat Slashing grace (that make more chance for attack succeeds for high Dex and deal more damage for high Int) that can on one turn by one attack-action make whip strike + cast spell (use free second hand by spell combat ability) and delivery that spell as touch on 15 ft. (use spell strike ability).
But feat Slashing grace said that it's "not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied".Is this right and can somebody help me with this build?
You need one more feat: Two Weapon Grace.
This feat unlocks the ability to use Fencing Grace (rapiers), Starry Grace (star knives), and/or Slashing Grace feats while dual-wielding - and since spell combat follows the rules of dual-wielding, this should fix the problem.
Arrr!!!
So from 1-st lvl magus CAN use both hand (as in case two-weapon fighting) - one for use weapon, secondary for cast spell.
BUT!!!
1) Without feat Two-weapon fighting he has penalties -6 on weapon hand and -10 on spell hand?
/after taking feat Two weapon fighting he will have -4 on each hand (or -2 if he have light weapon in primary hand)?
2) When magus take feat Two-Weapon Grace he can add 1/2 of his Dex bonus to his weapon damage (and he will have -4 on each hand atttack even with light weapon)?
So... hold on. Let's get the answer of whether it works, or why it doesn't, before we go anywhere else.
1. Spell Combat only imposes a -2, not a -2 *and* the penalty for TWF.
Spell Combat is a full-round action defined by the ability to do two things in either order.
- Make a full attack with your equipped one-handed weapon. This takes a -2.
- Cast one standard-action (or faster) spell. If this spell has an attack roll, it takes a -2.
TWF is a full-round action defined by the ability to do two things:
- Make a full attack with your equipped primary weapon. This takes TWF penalties.
- Make 1-3 attacks (based on your progress down the TWF feat chain) with your equipped secondary ("off-hand") weapon. This takes off-hand TWF penalties.
They're not quite the same action, though they follow similar principles.
2. Considering the above, what Two-Weapon Grace would do for Spell Combat is allow it to work at all.
...and thinking about it further, I'm starting to think that even if it DOES work, that it's not worth trying. Yes, there's the dream of being able to achieve Dex to damage with a whip while allowing spell combat and spellstrike to work. However, magi don't have so many feats to be throwing at shenanigans like that (which is why the less fiddly Dervish Dance build is used.)
Taking three levels of unchained rogue would get Dex to damage on a whip with no restrictions, though.
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It simply doesn't work because twf is not spell combat and spell combat is not twf, no matter how you fiddle with things they are 2 completely separate things. Even if you can reduce twf penalties it never reduces spell combat penalties.
IMHO even mentioning twf with spell combat was one of the worst wordings ever printed
It simply doesn't work because twf is not spell combat and spell combat is not twf, no matter how you fiddle with things they are 2 completely separate things. Even if you can reduce twf penalties it never reduces spell combat penalties.
IMHO even mentioning twf with spell combat was one of the worst wordings ever printed
Well, then, let's forget that TWF is involved.
In light of the fact that Two-Weapon Grace also allows you to activate the Grace feats with your hand occupied by something that isn't a weapon, why wouldn't it work with spell combat?
Sadly, I suspect I might know the answer, and it would put spell combat into Schrodinger territory with regard to whether it counts as TWF or not. (It's not TWF, so the first clause doesn't activate. But the spell is called an off-hand weapon in spell combat's description, so the second clause doesn't activate... unless the spell isn't defined as an attack?)
Yeah... better to just rewrite spell combat so that there is no mention of TWF.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a -2 penalty, and cast any magus spell with a casting time of 1 standard action. If the spell includes attack rolls (due to Spellstrike, a touch attack, etc,) the attack rolls are also made with a -2 penalty.
If the magus casts defensively, he may take an additional penalty on the attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. The penalty is applied to his attack rolls regardless of the outcome of this check.
A magus can choose whether to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first; if he has more than one weapon attack, he may not cast the spell between them.
In light of the fact that Two-Weapon Grace also allows you to activate the Grace feats with your hand occupied by something that isn't a weapon, why wouldn't it work with spell combat?
I say it does work! The second sentence of the Spell Combat description is pure explanatory text, 0% rule text. There isn't a single TWF rule element that explicitly is used, nor is there a single TWF related rule option that explicitly works with Spell Combat. The TWF stuff is like a metaphor, and that includes the 'spell = off-hand attack' crap. Therefore, the penultimate sentence of the TWG benefit text ("If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.") applies. Which also means that the increased TWF penalty does not apply.
I love how everyone picks and chooses what applies and what doesn't. It is adorable how SpellCombat is not TWF, has nothing to do with TWF, blah blah blah, but the last sentence of Two Weapon Grace somehow applies. Lol.
But sure, if you want to take TWF as a prerequisite just to pick up Two Weapon Grace... I guess it might as well work, you paid for it.
In my opinion, either all of Two Weapon Grace applies, or none of it does.
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It's because the last sentence of the feat is fairly standalone.
Benefit: You can gain the benefit of the Fencing GraceUI, Slashing GraceACG, or Starry GraceUI feats while fighting with two weapons. Your penalties from two-weapon fighting increase by 2 on all attack rolls you make when doing so, and you can’t decrease the penalties to less than –2 even if other abilities would reduce the penalties further. Add 1/2 your Dexterity bonus to damage with your off-hand weapon instead of 1/2 your Strength modifier. If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.
So, it really has nothing to do with two weapon fighting. It's that you can use the grace feat while your other hand is being occupied. In theory, you could be doing anything else with that hand, like using a shield.
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But how does that override the FAQ? The FAQ flat says Slashing Grace doesn’t work with Spell Combat. The feat would have to say that it does work with Spell Combat.
All that bolded line does is let you have two weapons in hand, but still use Slashing Grace if you don’t make a full attack. So you don’t get into a situation where you’re dual wielding, but only have a standard action to attack, and suddenly can’t use Slashing Grace because your off hand is occupied.
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Slashing Grace doesn’t work with Spell Combat because your offhand “is otherwise occupied”.
With Two-Weapon Grace, Slashing Grace works if either
(A) your offhand is occupied by attacking as part of Two Weapon Fighting
(B) Your offhand is occupied by something that is not attacking as part of Two Weapon FightingI would guess that (B) would apply to Spell Combat, but I am unable to come up with a rules interpretation for Spell Combat that doesn’t end up falling into (A) or (B), either of which mean that it works.
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand
the hand isnt occupied for TWG to kick in and SG is still NA
Brawlers flurry literally is two weapon fighting, just with some extra bits tacked on.
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Brawlers flurry literally is two weapon fighting, just with some extra bits tacked on.
That one might have an argument, but only because Brawler’s Flurry specifically calls out using the two-weapon fighting feat, not “much like two-weapon fighting.” But then there’s obviously a need to name brawler’s flurry as separate from two-weapon fighting, so there’s an argument it doesn’t work as well. So I’d expect table variation there, just like there’s table variation about whether or not a Brawler can select feats that require Two-Weapon Fighting without taking Two-Weapon Fighting (playtest Brawler thread says yes, final version is quiet on it, so some GMs don’t allow it. I personally do, so I might be able to be convinced on Slashing Grace for Brawler’s Flurry).
Even if that last sentence in Two-Weapon Grace applies to the Magus, it only applies when you aren’t using your off-hand weapon. Casting a spell in spell combat is using your off-hand weapon, even in the interpretation that most relies on two-weapon fighting. Otherwise you wouldn’t take the -2 penalty when you cast a spell that doesn’t have an attack. Whether or not you make an attack roll with that spell or you make an attack roll with your weapon, or you cast mirror images, it’s casting the spell that is the off-hand weapon. So that last sentence wouldn’t apply.
When would it apply? When you don’t cast a spell using Spell Combat. And Slashing Grace already works for a Magus on rounds that they don’t cast a spell using Spell Combat. You can cast shocking grasp and make a single attack with your whip using Spellstrike and apply Slashing Grace all you want. You can make an attack with a held charge and use Slashing Grace (or a full attack with a held spell like chill touch). And you don’t need Two-Weapon Grace to do so. But if you use Spell Combat, Slashing Grace doesn’t work that round whether or not you have Two-Weapon Grace.
Two-weapon Grace only mentions two-weapon fighting.
Wrong, it also mentions attacking with the weapon with an occupied off-hand without using TWF.
Casting a spell in spell combat is using your off-hand weapon, even in the interpretation that most relies on two-weapon fighting.
No it's not! It's a spell, not a weapon. Spell Combat has absolutely no relation to TWF. You're mistaking explanatory text for ruletext.
Otherwise you wouldn’t take the -2 penalty when you cast a spell that doesn’t have an attack.
Objectively wrong. You take the penalty because the ability says so. Indeed, if the penalty came from the TWF rules, it would be a -6 penalty without the TWF feat, and a -4 with it, because nowhere does it say thatyou count as havign the feat, or that the spell counts as a light off-hand weapon. Since we're explicitly told that we suffer a -2 penalty, this is proof that the TWF rules are not used!
Slashing Grace lists three situations for when it doesn't work: TWF, Flurry of Blows, and "any time another hand is otherwise occupied". I have shown that Spell Combat does not use TWF rules and thus isn't TWF; and it's obviously not FoB, so the only reason for the feat to not work is #3, the hand being occupied. If Spell Combat wouldn't occupy the off-hand, Slashing Grace would work with it. The FAQ doesn't change anything about that, it just clarifies that Spell Combat does indeed occupy the off-hand.
Now, the hand being occupies is exactly what that sentence in the TWG description helps with - "you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied."
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And if Spell Combat is not TWF, the. I refer you back to the FAQ, which does not say you can’t use Slashing Grace with Spell Combat because your other hand is occupied. It directly says you can’t use Slashing Grace with Spell Combat. As a GM, you’re welcome to ignore it, but Two-Weapon Grace does nothing to change that sentence.
Basically, you want to use the context in Slashing Grace to determine that the reason it doesn’t work with Spell Combat is that the hand is occupied, but you don’t want to use the context in Two-Weapon Grace to determine that it is only referring to when you are wielding two weapons. Without that last line, you would not be able to make a standard attack while wielding two weapons and benefit from Slashing Grace. That’s why it’s there.
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The FAQ does not say anything about spell combat occupying the off-hand being the reason that it doesn’t work with Slashing Grace. It says that, among other abilities, it does not work with Slashing Grace. No qualifiers. That’s all it has to say with regards to Spell Combat.
Two-Weapon Grace does not saying anything about allowing Spell Combat to work with Slashing Grace. So it does not change the limit imposed by the FAQ.
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If you aren’t using the other hand. That’s where the issue is. If in Spell Combat the spell is occupying your off-hand, then you are using it when you cast a spell, and the line at the end of Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t apply.
If it’s not occupying the off-hand, then Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t have anything to do with Spell Combat.
But the FAQ asks several questions. They do not all necessarily pertain to the off-hand being occupied, and the answer isn’t given that way. It does not say all of these things that are listed occupy the off hand. It says all of these things listed don’t work with Slashing Grace. If the sentence at the end of Two-Weapon Grace is a standalone sentence that ignores the rest of what the ability is talking about, then why isn’t the sentence in the FAQ also a standalone statement?
Either way I look at it, Two-Weapon Grace does nothing for Spell Combat, because Spell Combat isn’t TWF, and Two-weapon Grace is only taking about fighting with two weapons.
If Spell Combat is not occupying your off-hand, then the statement in the FAQ is definitive and it does not work with Slashing Grace.
Or if the spell is occupying your off-hand then you are using it when you cast the spell, and therefore the sentence in Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t change anything.
In order for it to work, you have to decide that Spell Combat is Two-Weapon Fighting, which as far as I can see, it is not.
The FAQ does not say anything about spell combat occupying the off-hand being the reason that it doesn’t work with Slashing Grace. It says that, among other abilities, it does not work with Slashing Grace. No qualifiers. That’s all it has to say with regards to Spell Combat.
Two-Weapon Grace does not saying anything about allowing Spell Combat to work with Slashing Grace. So it does not change the limit imposed by the FAQ.
FAQs are meant to be rules clarifications, they do not replace rules unless stated otherwise. The FAQ in question is simply a clarification, it clarifies that spellcombat is infact one of the things slashing grace does not work with. Slashing grace states it doesn’t work if your off-hand is occupied. Spellcombat declares that your spell is your “offhand weapon” despite being delivered with your main hand weapon as a main hand attack. The FAQ ties these rules together and clarifies that slashing grace by RAW does not work with spellcombat on its own. Two-weapon grace changes the rules for slashing grace to allow for it to function with two-weapon fighting and any time your off-hand is otherwise occupied.
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I follow that. But if your spell is your “offhand weapon” then when you cast a spell in Spell Combat, you are using your off-hand weapon. Therefore the sentence, “ If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.” doesn’t apply.
The argument seems to be that it occupies your off-hand, but it’s not a weapon, therefore you aren’t using your off-hand weapon.
I say if it’s not a weapon, then Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t apply at all, because the context of the feat is that you are “fighting with two weapons.”
See the issue? If you ignore the context of the feat to claim that a single sentence doesn’t care if you are wielding two weapons, then it’s applying far outside of what is intended. The sentence in the FAQ is equally as succinct and more specific.
I follow that. But if your spell is your “offhand weapon” then when you cast a spell in Spell Combat, you are using your off-hand weapon. Therefore the sentence, “ If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.” doesn’t apply.
The argument seems to be that it occupies your off-hand, but it’s not a weapon, therefore you aren’t using your off-hand weapon.
I say if it’s not a weapon, then Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t apply at all, because the context of the feat is that you are “fighting with two weapons.”
See the issue? If you ignore the context of the feat to claim that a single sentence doesn’t care if you are wielding two weapons, then it’s applying far outside of what is intended. The sentence in the FAQ is equally as succinct and more specific.
The FAQ is specific to slashing grace (and by extension fencing grace and starry grace), it is NOT about two-weapon grace which specifically alters the very rule the FAQ is referring to.
Two weapon grace has multiple effects.
Effect one: allows slashing grace, fencing grace, and starry grace to apply when fighting with two weapons. Note, this effect does not say “when using two-weapon fighting, just “when fighting with two weapons. This means any and all effects that count as fighting with two weapons apply here, including but not limited to flurry of blows.
Effect two: your penalty on two-weapon fighting is increased by -2 and can never be reduced below a -2 penalty. This effect specifically applies only to two-weapon fighting. If you gain the ability to attack with two weapons through any effect that is not two-weapon fighting (nor functions as two-weapon fighting) this penalty does not apply.
Effect three: if you attack without using an offhand weapon, you may apply the effects of the feats even though your offhand is occupied. This allows someone with a shield to use these feats even if they elect not to shield bash that round. It also allows you to wield an offhand weapon for any purpose you desire and gain the benefits of the feats weather you attack with your offhand or not each round.
You say the argument is that spellcombat is not an offhand weapon. The rules for spellcombat say otherwise. Spellcombat specifically states that the apelll being cast is your offhand weapon. Even if you are not casting a weapon spell, using spellcombat is by RAW fighting with two weapons.
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I follow that. But if your spell is your “offhand weapon” then when you cast a spell in Spell Combat, you are using your off-hand weapon. Therefore the sentence, “ If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.” doesn’t apply.
The argument seems to be that it occupies your off-hand, but it’s not a weapon, therefore you aren’t using your off-hand weapon.
I say if it’s not a weapon, then Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t apply at all, because the context of the feat is that you are “fighting with two weapons.”
See the issue? If you ignore the context of the feat to claim that a single sentence doesn’t care if you are wielding two weapons, then it’s applying far outside of what is intended. The sentence in the FAQ is equally as succinct and more specific.
But the off hand is NOT occupied. it must remain free
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
and its NOT twf so TWG doesnt apply.
I follow that. But if your spell is your “offhand weapon” then when you cast a spell in Spell Combat, you are using your off-hand weapon. Therefore the sentence, “ If you attack without using your off-hand weapon, you can use the aforementioned feats despite your other hand being occupied.” doesn’t apply.
The argument seems to be that it occupies your off-hand, but it’s not a weapon, therefore you aren’t using your off-hand weapon.
I say if it’s not a weapon, then Two-Weapon Grace doesn’t apply at all, because the context of the feat is that you are “fighting with two weapons.”
See the issue? If you ignore the context of the feat to claim that a single sentence doesn’t care if you are wielding two weapons, then it’s applying far outside of what is intended. The sentence in the FAQ is equally as succinct and more specific.
But the off hand is NOT occupied. it must remain free
To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.
and its NOT twf so TWG doesnt apply.
Two weapon grace only cares about two weapon fighting for the additional penalty. It enables use of the feats any time you fight with two weapons. Spellcombat specifically declaires your spell as an offhand weapon. If you use an offensive spell you are “fighting with two weapons” if you use a non-offensive spell then you are “attacking without using your offhand weapon”. Both conditions enable use of the other grace feats.
To use spellcombat your offhand must be empty. While using spellcombat your spell becomes your offhand weapon. While using spellcombat your offhand is occupied. It is an order of operations.
First is offhand empty? Yes, you may use spellcombat. No, you may not use spellcombat.
Are you using spellcombat? Yes, your offhand is now occupied by your spell and your spell is an offhand weapon. No, your offhand is not occupied by your spell and your spell is not an offhand weapon.
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I’m just going to leave it at this point, as it became a circular conversation long ago.
It’s a feat with some wording issues referencing another feat with wording issues and being stretched to apply to an ability with wording issues. It’s easy to see why it was never made legal for PFS. Very similar to what happened with Bladed Brush.
At this point, it’s just going to be ask your GM and go with what they say. Or rule as you like if you are the GM.
just want to say this to the op - make sure you grab whip mastery or something like it if you intend on delivering spells via whip.
since a whip has :"A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher"
most gm would rule that if the weapon deal no damage any added effects (like added spell) also doesn't follow through (i think the source is in the dr rules about dr blocking the damage and thus also blocking stuff like poison etc).
the fact the spell delivered need to bypass normal ac (instead of touch) if you use a weapon to deliver it would even support this.