What weapon group do the unarmed attacks of battle forms fall into? Has there been any ruling on this yet? Essentially none of the unarmed attacks for polymorph effects list a weapon group for their unarmed attacks.
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Calling them brawling or something that fits the specific attack is a reasonable way to run it. The strict reading Rules answer is still "they don't" in a case where none is listed.
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By default unarmed attacks don't belong to any weapon groups. They can belong to a weapon group, but that requires an explicit statement.
Almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. Unarmed attacks can belong to a weapon group (page 280), and they might have weapon traits (page 282). However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
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Yeah, an unarmed attack only falls into a weapon group when it says so.
Contrast Sprite's Spark- "You gain a ranged unarmed attack in the sling weapon group" to Seedpod's "You gain a seedpod ranged unarmed attack that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage" to Wild Wind Stances "You can make wind crash unarmed Strikes as ranged Strikes against targets within 30 feet. These deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage, use the brawling group,..."
If something doesn't have a weapon group listed, until there is errata, it simply doesn't have one.
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So you're saying that a fighter cannot choose to be a master in his natural weapons (obtained from ancestry or from druid wild shapes)?
Well, unless he uses the Core1 book +Errata (which is different from 2nd printing Core and Archives).
If that is true, there goes a character I was about to turn my GM credit PFS character into :-(
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It falls under none as default. Frankly, I don’t see brawling as appropriate since slashing and piercing damage are available with natural attacks. Sometimes claws do bleed making them more like knives. Some bites cause slowing to speed, but not action. There just isn’t anything consistent to use to justify applying a weapons group without special consideration.
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Frankly, I don’t see brawling as appropriate since slashing and piercing damage are available with natural attacks.
I don't see why they wouldn't be appropriate as a monks Tiger Claw deal slashing damage, Wolf Jaw deals piercing and Cobra Fang deals poison, Fire Talon deals fire and Shadow Grasp deals negative: ALL of those are Brawling so clearly, damage type has absolutely nothing to do with group.
Frankly, I don’t see brawling as appropriate since slashing and piercing damage are available with natural attacks.I don't see why they wouldn't be appropriate as a monks Tiger Claw deal slashing damage, Wolf Jaw deals piercing and Cobra Fang deals poison, Fire Talon deals fire and Shadow Grasp deals negative: ALL of those are Brawling so clearly, damage type has absolutely nothing to do with group.
I concede in terms of damage type. However, those are all given the brawling trait specifically.
Just like a bear intimidating with a -4 due to lack of shared language (maybe it is just telling us Timmy is stuck in a well?) their bites and swipes just aren’t skilled enough to qualify as brawling. /shrug
Sadly it has to be explicitly granted before an attack belongs to a weapon group. So lots of attacks like everything in Animal Form simply have no weapon groups.
Having said that there are still ways to add extra effects onto them
such as the Orcs Bloody Blows feat.
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Just like a bear intimidating with a -4 due to lack of shared language
On the other hand, if a bear were to look you in the eye and say threatening things to you in English that would be much more terrifying.
Just like a bear intimidating with a -4 due to lack of shared languageOn the other hand, if a bear were to look you in the eye and say threatening things to you in English that would be much more terrifying.
Or the mushrooms kicked in
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I'm not at all sure that you're right. Unless I am missing something feats such as the Iruxi Unarmed Cunning become totally meaningless and useless since without weapon groups there are no critical specialization feats to apply
And "Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body" would certainly seem to strongly imply that other attacks count as fists.
And the errata that explicitly grants critical specialization effects to unarmed strikes would be useless for the most common unarmed strikes actually made (some natural attack from spell, ancestry or feat).
And Animal instinct barbarians no longer get crit effects unless they're ape instinct? And ape fists are the only attack from animal form that gets a weapon group?
This just can't be the intent. And I'm far from convinced it is what the rules actually say.
I'm not at all sure that you're right. Unless I am missing something feats such as the Iruxi Unarmed Cunning become totally meaningless and useless since without weapon groups there are no critical specialization feats to apply
And "Unarmed Attacks lists the statistics for an unarmed attack with a fist, though you’ll usually use the same statistics for attacks made with any other parts of your body" would certainly seem to strongly imply that other attacks count as fists.
And the errata that explicitly grants critical specialization effects to unarmed strikes would be useless for the most common unarmed strikes actually made (some natural attack from spell, ancestry or feat).
And Animal instinct barbarians no longer get crit effects unless they're ape instinct? And ape fists are the only attack from animal form that gets a weapon group?
This just can't be the intent. And I'm far from convinced it is what the rules actually say.
The Iruxi all come with claws that say in the description “...offer an alternative to the fists other humanoids bring to the fight.” Though is isn’t explicitly stated, I believe the intent is that they are brawling just as fists by default.
The animal instinct barbarian specifies that the attacks are in the brawling group.Nothing states that natural attacks animals make are in the brawling group by default. They are not fists, nor a substitute for fists, nor have the trait attached. They cannot be assumed to be brawling.
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I just looked at the rules for handwraps of Mighty Blows.
I'm selectively quoting for brevity. I don't think that I've changed the meaning at all but feel free to look at The actual text yourself
These handwraps ... making your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons ...
Treat the handwraps as melee weapons of the brawling group"
So I think that handwraps apply to ALL unarmed attacks. And any attack using handwraps makes the unarmed attack a member of the brawling group.
Whether that applies to wild shape attacks is, of course, a whole other kettle of undecided fish :-(. But I think it is about as clear as it can be that
1) All non transmutation unarmed attacks benefit from handwraps
2) Any attack using handwraps is in the brawling group
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I just looked at the rules for handwraps of Mighty Blows.
I'm selectively quoting for brevity. I don't think that I've changed the meaning at all but feel free to look at The actual text yourself
These handwraps ... making your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons ...
Treat the handwraps as melee weapons of the brawling group"
So I think that handwraps apply to ALL unarmed attacks. And any attack using handwraps makes the unarmed attack a member of the brawling group.
Whether that applies to wild shape attacks is, of course, a whole other kettle of undecided fish :-(. But I think it is about as clear as it can be that
1) All non transmutation unarmed attacks benefit from handwraps
2) Any attack using handwraps is in the brawling group
“You can upgrade, add, and transfer runes to and from the handwraps just as you would for a weapon, and you can attach talismans to the handwraps. Treat the handwraps as melee weapons of the brawling group with light Bulk for these purposes.”
That is a conditional clause that doesn’t mean any use of the item adds the brawling group.
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I'd really like them to be in the brawling group, but that paragraph is just about runes. So I don't see that it applies more generally.
I don't have a horse in this race so let me just ask.
What harm would there be if there were Errata issued that provided the Brawling Weapon Group classification to ALL Unarmed Attacks regardless of if the Ability itself specifies that classification?
It would open the door to allowing critical specialization effects on animal attacks is my initial guess. They wouldn’t just automatically get it, but they would be one step closer and maybe that provides too many worms in the can.
Without knowing designer intent.../shrug?
I don't have a horse in this race so let me just ask.
What harm would there be if there were Errata issued that provided the Brawling Weapon Group classification to ALL Unarmed Attacks regardless of if the Ability itself specifies that classification?
It would open the door to allowing critical specialization effects on animal attacks is my initial guess. They wouldn’t just automatically get it, but they would be one step closer and maybe that provides too many worms in the can.
Without knowing designer intent.../shrug?
There would need to be an "unless otherwise specified" provision.
I don't think it would have all that dramatic an impact on the game (except for the better).
What harm would there be if there were Errata issued that provided the Brawling Weapon Group classification to ALL Unarmed Attacks regardless of if the Ability itself specifies that classification?
They were pretty careful in the CRB (and playtest) to insist that unarmed attacks are not weapons, so putting them in a weapon group muddies that distinction.
What harm would there be if there were Errata issued that provided the Brawling Weapon Group classification to ALL Unarmed Attacks regardless of if the Ability itself specifies that classification?They were pretty careful in the CRB (and playtest) to insist that unarmed attacks are not weapons, so putting them in a weapon group muddies that distinction.
That isn't a very persuasive argument when they do just that in the CRB... *glances at fist entry, animal instinct attacks, monk attacks...*
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Making unarmed attacks default to brawling if there's no other specification does two main things:
-It lets you enable crit specialization on unique unarmed attacks if you have access to them. So I guess you have to ask whether or not these natural attacks are intentionally designed around not having any crit specialization effect to decide whether or not that's a problem.
-It allows Fighters using the CRB 2 ruleset (as opposed to the errata ruleset, which is different) to gain full proficiency in unique unarmed attacks. Again, you have to ask yourself if there's a good reason Fighters should be specifically barred from fully utilizing battle form and other ungrouped unarmed attacks or not to decide if this is reasonable.
What harm would there be if there were Errata issued that provided the Brawling Weapon Group classification to ALL Unarmed Attacks regardless of if the Ability itself specifies that classification?They were pretty careful in the CRB (and playtest) to insist that unarmed attacks are not weapons, so putting them in a weapon group muddies that distinction.
YMMV but it's a terrible rule, so I'd argue that's a perk more than anything.
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I have no idea if it is related, but my personal ox that got gored by this rule was a PFS fighter with druid dedication (fortunately built but not actually played :-)).
That is the most powerful martial shapeshifter that I could build. Its hard to be dispassionate about ones creations but it didn't seem too powerful to me.
But (assuming that animals benefit from to hit runes which is very definitely open to interpretation but a fairly popular interpretation) that DOES translate to a character with the best to hit in the game having a +2 status bonus over what he normally has. And that may well be seen as too powerful.
The wording of the fighter expertise specifically precludes that combination. May be pure coincidence but it also may be intended and at least part of the reasoning for the current wording.
I'm pretty sure it was intended as a balance restriction.
Your Fighter Wildshaper just needs the Martial Artist Dedication. A bit trickier but doable.