| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Reduce CHA to 10 (your build is not using it, you can increase it to 12 at lvl 10 for the persistent good damage with the lvl 9 feature) and then either CON or WIS 12 to increase DEX to 18.
Change the longsword for a finesse weapon like Rapier or Shortsword.
|
Yep, a character with four stats at 14 is not going to be particularly good at anything.
For an archer, I'd probably suggest:
Str: 14 (Background, Initial Boost)
Dex: 18 (Ancestry, Background, Class, Initial Boost)
Con: 14 (Ancestry, Initial Boost)
Int: 10
Wis: 12 (Initial Boost)
Cha: 10
Equipment: Leather Armor, Steel Shield, Shortsword, Composite Shortbow (or Composite Longbow if you think you'll be over 30' from your targets)
Please note that the Tenet of Good champion's Blade Ally class feature doesn't actually offer any property runes that can be used on a ranged weapon.
For better melee performance, you might want to move the class stat bonus to Strength to get a Str 16 Dex 16 combination and switch to a Studded Leather for armor and a non-finesse weapon for melee damage: Since you are already 3rd level, you are close to the 5th level ability boosts that can get you to Str 18 Dex 18, at which point you are as good or better than the 18 Dex build (at least, until you hit level 10).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm guessing 'wannabe' in the sense that he's on his way to archerying, since you have Ranged Reprisal. Sadly, there's only one option for Blade Ally, and that's Ghost Touch; the other options are non-bow ones.
If you're in the right terrain, maybe shifting to a steed ally? You'll get a wider movement range so you're in that sweet spot to launch some Retributive Strikes.
And as much as I hate it, maybe nudge your stats to hit more. I'm experiencing the joy of a crappy Dex for ranged combat in Starfinder, and I don't think PF2 is any kinder.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm guessing 'wannabe' in the sense that he's on his way to archerying, since you have Ranged Reprisal. Sadly, there's only one option for Blade Ally, and that's Ghost Touch; the other options are non-bow ones.Ghost Touch is 'Melee Weapon Only' as well:
Source Core Rulebook pg. 584 2.0Magical, Transmutation
Price 75 gp
Usage etched onto a melee weapon
The weapon can harm creatures without physical form. A ghost touch weapon is particularly effective against incorporeal creatures, which almost always have a specific vulnerability to ghost touch weapons. Incorporeal creatures can touch, hold, and wield ghost touch weapons (unlike most physical objects).
I'm guessing 'wannabe' in the sense that he's on his way to archerying, since you have Ranged Reprisal. Sadly, there's only one option for Blade Ally, and that's Ghost Touch; the other options are non-bow ones.Ghost Touch is 'Melee Weapon Only' as well:Source Core Rulebook pg. 584 2.0Magical, Transmutation
Price 75 gp
Usage etched onto a melee weapon
The weapon can harm creatures without physical form. A ghost touch weapon is particularly effective against incorporeal creatures, which almost always have a specific vulnerability to ghost touch weapons. Incorporeal creatures can touch, hold, and wield ghost touch weapons (unlike most physical objects).
Revise 'one' to 'zero'.
Still, I'm suggesting the Steed ally more for mobility than for an actual fighting component. From what I've heard, Champions aren't there to contribute via huge damage numbers (although every little bit helps), but being nearby so your reprisals can kick in will help.
Also having a finesse melee weapon will help so your attacks can come mainly from Dexterity, so doing stuff for that will more often help with attacks.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm guessing 'wannabe' in the sense that he's on his way to archerying, since you have Ranged Reprisal. Sadly, there's only one option for Blade Ally, and that's Ghost Touch; the other options are non-bow ones.Ghost Touch is 'Melee Weapon Only' as well:Source Core Rulebook pg. 584 2.0Magical, Transmutation
Price 75 gp
Usage etched onto a melee weapon
The weapon can harm creatures without physical form. A ghost touch weapon is particularly effective against incorporeal creatures, which almost always have a specific vulnerability to ghost touch weapons. Incorporeal creatures can touch, hold, and wield ghost touch weapons (unlike most physical objects).
Revise 'one' to 'zero'.
Still, I'm suggesting the Steed ally more for mobility than for an actual fighting component. From what I've heard, Champions aren't there to contribute via huge damage numbers (although every little bit helps), but being nearby so your reprisals can kick in will help.
Also having a finesse melee weapon will help so your attacks can come mainly from Dexterity, so doing stuff for that will more often help with attacks.
I don't have any personal experience with Animal Companions / Mounts, but I'm under the impression that they are the sort of thing you need to keep investing feats into to maintain their effectiveness, which can be a bit of a downside if you have any other plans for those slots...
On the character stats, I would definitely say either 'Str 14, Dex 18' for a true ranged build or 'Str 16, Dex 16' for more of a 'Melee who wants to also be effective at range' build.
|
|
OK, advice appreciated. But how about actual damage? Is there, in fact, any way to improve archery damage output without magic items (i.e., money)?Honestly, your "Don’t take any archetypes" restriction kinda kills most of your future options (even if you could take a Dedication feat at level 2, you'll need a follow-up feat or two to really get 'something of value' out of it):
- If you want to focus on being an archer now, go with a Str 14 Dex 18 starting build: You'll hit fairly often, but you won't do much damage with each hit.
- If you want to focus on future archery or more of a 'switch-hitter' build, go with a Str 16 Dex 16 starting build and boost both stats to 18 at 5th level: At levels 3-4 you won't hit as often and you'll do the same damage with a bow, but you'll do more damage with a non-finesse melee weapon. At levels 5 through 9, you'll hit just as often and do a little bit more damage.*
- Either way, archery in PF2 is not the damage dealer it was in PF1 and your damage will probably never be 'great' (A Str 18 melee build will just do more damage most of the time): Most classes with archery builds get additional attacks through class feats, but I don't believe Champions get this (this is where Archetypes come in to 'save the day').
- Oh, you'll definately want a composite bow (long version if you think you can keep 30+ feet away from your foes, short version otherwise) if you are an archer with a 14+ strength.
- Once they become an option, Striking runes are very important due to nearly all of your damage coming from your bow's damage dice (your first striking rune will nearly double your damage on each hit).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While not a zero-cost option, if your GM would allow the access, choosing an alchemical crossbow over a composite bow could boost your damage, though at the cost of rate of fire. The no archetype limitation is a challenge since branching into either alchemist for free bombs or ranger for crossbow feats are both a nice boost if you want to improve your DPR.
I know that mechanical stats are important, but personally i would rather know more about the PC's overall theme and story. IME, a champion is more about defense and damage mitigation than DPR. I find that focusing on that aspect and pair with another PC who might have fewer defensive options, but more damage output. My champion is teamed with a rogue. Works very well. I'm not saying you cannot be a good DPR character, but your overall party effectiveness might be better served with a group-build methodology. Good luck!
|
|
Oh, you might also want to keep resistances/vulnerabilities in mind:
- Individual arrows don't do a lot of damage, so damage resistance can really shut down archery.
- Rangers / Fighters / Archer builds typically get a 'attack multiple times and combine your damage before applying resistances/vulnerabilities' feat to somewhat offset this, but that isn't really an option for a CRB 'no archetype' Champion.
- If you are facing something with a vulnerability (or reduced resistance) to a precious material (demons vs cold iron, devils vs silver, constructs vs adamantine), you basically need to 'shoot gold' at them to take advantage of this (precious material arrows are treated as 'one use' consumables). Even if you do have the appropriate material, you still might have a damage type issue (Our AoA group faced a creature with Resistance that was only pierced by a combination of 'bludgeoning and adamantine').
- On the topic of precious material arrows, there is some forum debate on whether you only need the 'cheapest available grade' arrows or you need the 'grade appropriate to your weapon runes' (which is really expensive): I personally think the 'appropriate grade' argument is the one best supported by the actual rules, but this isn't clearly spelled out anywhere and you'll have to ask your GM how this works in your game.
I'd consider also getting training in stealth. Tracking prey is only half of hunting, after all. You also need to sneak close enough to get the kill shot. Not only does this help the concept, but it will let you render enemies flat-footed and therefore easier to hit and crit. Archery works well with the Avoid Notice activity, and you might as well Avoid Notice since you'll have bad perception and can't detect magic.
I'm honestly not sure you want to go longbow, since Champion Reaction stuff goes off within 15' and longbows penalize you for being that close.
I understand wanting to do more damage, but aside from pumping some iron (and points into Strength), there's really not a lot. I think you're looking for setting off Retributive Strikes there. (Hence my idea of mounting up so you can easily keep where you need to be.)
|
Our GM is letting us revise our Level 3 characters for more effectiveness, provided that we
*Stick to the Core Rulebook only,
*Don’t take any archetypes, and
*Use only our existing money.
So getting magic weapons is out. Any suggestions for my level 3 champion of Erastil and wannabe archer? The 'champion of Erastil' is the core of the concept and will remain the same.
Champions need to be withing 15' for their reactions to fire, so a longbow is a poor choice. I would ditch the longbow in favor of sword-and-board if remaining a champion, or switch to a fighter w/ cleric dedication if remaining an archer. Archer Paladins don't deal very good damage.
|
|
...
I'm starting to get the impression that "no archetypes allowed" is a huge deal in 2nd edition.....
Well, the real issue is that the Champion class doesn't really support an archery build very well: If you were building a ranger archer or fighter archer, you'd be just fine without an archetype, but the Champion class is just not really suited for archery.
This is part of what the non-class archetypes like the Archer do: They add options to support a play style that your class doesn't.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Champion is not a good class for archery. If your GM won’t allow any archetypes, then you will be heavily restrained from doing anything even remotely archery-like.
I would be far more concerned that your GM won’t allow a key component to this game’s ability to make custom characters. If you have to stick to core 1-20, then save yourself the pain and ditch archery full stop.
Otherwise to answer your key question, the only way to boost your damage at this junction (level 3 no archetype) is to increase your STR and use a melee weapon.
It works fine completely mechanically if you get to use the mechanics of the game. It isn't the games fault your GM is disallowing you to use the basic tools needed to fulfill your character vision. Thats on him.Erastil's lawful good and his favored weapon's a bow, so a divine-champion archer seemed like a valid concept. Apparently it doesn't work out mechanically, though.
Pretty much this
Otherwise, just max your DEX and STR and grab a bow with the propulsion trait. The dexterity is needed to hit. The strength is need for half the modifier to damage and to still use heavy armor (if intended since you won’t have a shield). You can also pick up a potency crystal or two to give you use of +1 striking temporarily.
|
|
Champions need to be withing 15' for their reactions to fire, so a longbow is a poor choice. I would ditch the longbow in favor of sword-and-board if remaining a champion, or switch to a fighter w/ cleric dedication if remaining an archer. Archer Paladins don't deal very good damage.Still no archetypes allowed. I'm starting to get the impression that "no archetypes allowed" is a huge deal in 2nd edition.....Erastil's lawful good and his favored weapon's a bow, so a divine-champion archer seemed like a valid concept. Apparently it doesn't work out mechanically, though.
Oops, I forgot about the "no archetypes" restriction. That's a tough one, but I think a fighter or ranger with a high skill in Religion works out well. The champion is more of a knight-in-shining-armor character type. The class can use a bow just fine but it suffers from lack of synergy and low damage (as you've noticed).
Archetypes are a game platform differentiator for P2, and the way they were implemented impressed me right away. They are useful, flavorful, and balanced, and a P2 game without them is going to miss out on a significant benefit of the system.