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Just double checked my 2e character (who's 4th level), and counted its gold (about 300). And went over its Chronicles. Not a lot on it to buy, magic item wise. So I thought, I'll go look at what is available.
Utter trash. Every item. Utter trash.
I mean, in society, he can only buy level 4 / 6 anyway. But omg, why bother with any of it. Utterly disgusting, useless, utter trash.
That is all. Feel free to delete this if you want. Or add to the complaint. Whatever. I don't care. Magic items in 2e are just trash.
In particular: Who was high when they designed the pricing scheme of Bags of Holding? I can spend an extra 150 gp to get double the capacity? Or I could have just spent HALF the gold for the same capacity.
BOH 1 - 1 bulk, 25 bulk capacity. 75 gp
BOH 2 - 1 bulk, 50 bulk capacity. 300 gp
Are you high? Why wouldn't I buy 4 of the type 1, and stuff three of them in the first one?
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This isn't very constructive or useful.
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Are you high? Why wouldn't I buy 4 of the type 1, and stuff three of them in the first one?
You've never been able to nest extradimensional containers like this, and PF2 is no exception:
An extradimensional effect placed inside another extradimensional space ceases to function until it is removed.
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Hopefully at least some of this will be addressed pretty soon. There’s a number of books coming out this year that will ((or should) have a fair number of new magic items.
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Not sure what your character is, but here's some good common level 4-6 magic items:
1. A striking rune
2. Insistent Door Knocker
3. Horn of Fog
4. Wand of Manifold Missiles
5. A 2nd Level Wand
6. A Minor Sturdy Shield
7. A Spellguard Shield
8. A Disrupting Rune
9. A Fearsome Rune
10. A staff of healing
11. A Staff of Divination
12. Boots of Elvenkind
13. Goggles of Night
14. Diplomat's Badge
15. Sleeves of Storage
Just to name some. We definitely need more items, but to say there's no good ones just isn't true.
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I think that the title of the post summed up pretty well that this was about a desire to complain, not about whether the content of the complaint is accurate.
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Honestly, even as a rant I can't disagree too much. Items are incredibly disappointing. Aside from consumables costing 4x what a consumable should, and level gating, most permanent effects outside of fundamental runes are pretty dull. Sure, there are a few wands and property runes that are cool, but not enough to play more than a couple characters without their gear looking identical. Even if you do find something cool, it's obsolete in a level or two so you better hope there's a better version printed somewhere.
Finding exciting loot for my party has been excruciating, sometimes I can't even find something with novelty value. So much stuff is just bad.
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My players struggled to find items they found interesting when making their 8th level characters for the G&G playtest.
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As far as the bags of holding..you're paying more for having a single container. Woe betide the adventurer who went the route of four type I bags. 'You want that scroll? Roll a d4 to see if you pick the right bag.'
Seriously, this is an RL thing too when buying storage items if memory serves. Let's also not forget that each bag of holding is one bulk. So your discount on cash has a different cost to it ...
Oh, and add a dusty rose prism aeon stone to that list of neat things. Might not do your wizard much good but the halberdiers might appreciate having the Shield cantrip on hand ... and yes, there are other ways to get it, but instead of spending feats you can just spend FIFTY GOLD PIECES.
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I am not completely surprised that there are not many items out there for classes that have not been published yet.
Items don't need to be tailored to your specific class to be interesting.
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Even if the original post wasn't written im the most amicable way, it's hard to disagree. I've also had a pretty hard time finding interesting items before level 10 or so. As a GM I ended up homebrewing most of them.
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Items in this game are generally rather boring and/or don’t scale at low levels. Most of the power budget goes to the +X, so that leaves very little.
Traveller’s Any Tool and Ring of the Ram are both cool items. The latter doesn’t scale so it quickly becomes just a waste of money, and the former... generally isn’t worth the 200gp price tag.
Healer’s gloves are a good low level item, but they sure aren’t interesting.
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I wonder what the OP's character is.
I guess some caster, because Striking rune is far from "utter trash".
Well, a Striking Rune is also a mandatory item that's basically there to make you keep up with the game's math. Not exactly the most exciting thing; I think OP wasn't even counting those.
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Well, a Striking Rune is also a mandatory item that's basically there to make you keep up with the game's math. Not exactly the most exciting thing; I think OP wasn't even counting those.I wonder what the OP's character is.
I guess some caster, because Striking rune is far from "utter trash".
Still not my definition of "utter trash" though ;-)
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I'm also curious, what low level PF1 items meet your standards?
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I'm also curious, what low level PF1 items meet your standards?
The thing is: there were tons of items from the big 6 to buy (magic armor, weapon, bonus to stats, saves, amulet of natural armor and rings of resistance).
PFS2 uses item levels, so you have way more gold than you need but item levels limit your buying capacity quite well.
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I'm also curious, what low level PF1 items meet your standards?The thing is: there were tons of items from the big 6 to buy (magic armor, weapon, bonus to stats, saves, amulet of natural armor and rings of resistance).
PFS2 uses item levels, so you have way more gold than you need but item levels limit your buying capacity quite well.
While that is true, I think by the standards expressed so far in this thread those would also be considered "utter trash" and "unexciting".
While that is true, I think by the standards expressed so far in this thread those would also be considered "utter trash" and "unexciting".I'm also curious, what low level PF1 items meet your standards?The thing is: there were tons of items from the big 6 to buy (magic armor, weapon, bonus to stats, saves, amulet of natural armor and rings of resistance).
PFS2 uses item levels, so you have way more gold than you need but item levels limit your buying capacity quite well.
Unexciting, I agree. But far from utter trash as they were extremely strong.
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PF1 items did give you bigger bonuses, but that was usually all they did, so PF2 items are at least a little more interesting. The item bonuses have shrunk, but that's partially because people told Paizo they wanted proficiency to matter more than equipment.
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PF1 items did give you bigger bonuses, but that was usually all they did, so PF2 items are at least a little more interesting. The item bonuses have shrunk, but that's partially because people told Paizo they wanted proficiency to matter more than equipment.
Also we still have equipment such as the Striking runes because, in the CRB playtest surveys, the majority of people also said they still wanted magic items to have an impact on the game.
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For the record, I don't disagree that we are somewhat limited in item selection. There are just more constructive and respectful ways of addressing it.
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I think the low level skill boost items around levels 4 to 6 are pretty exciting in comparison to PF1 items. Most of them have an interesting activation ability and can end up being quite a big deal. In PFS, I can't imagine there are many characters who would completely scoff at a diplomats badge, for example.
Plus consumables being "expensive" for PFS is a pretty limited opinion. 40GP spent on first level scrolls for a caster is going to go a really long way to making you have casting endurance to cast spells from spell slots all day.
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I'm pretty critical of the itemization in this game, but there are tons of things my characters would want. I mean, just looking at 4 and under
Backup weapon -> Having flexibility in how you engage in combat is HUGE
Abadar's flawless scale -> know the exact market value of any light object you pick up, even if you have no idea what it is
Bottomless Stein -> If you think this is garbage I have no interest in ever playing with you
Everburning Torch -> A permanent light source that doesn't immediately tell everyone around you that you're a caster or have magic items? Yes please.
Wayfinder -> Compass for one, pretty useful. Also activates resonant powers of Aeon stones, which are some of the most fun items to collect, and there are a bunch of them.
Brooch of Shielding -> Imagine the look on the face of the caster who finally targets you with magic missile. Worth it for the luls.
Doubling Rings -> near mandatory for many characters
Hat of the Magi -> Gain Prestidigitation as a cantrip, usable by anyone. Cook, clean, impress the locals, etc.
Channel Protection Amulet -> Resistance 5 to harm spells can be pretty worth while at level 3. Warpriests are harm dispensers.
Belt of Good Health -> +4 HP is nothing to scoff at at level 4. Up to level 4 it's as good or better than the toughness feat, after it does no harm until you reach investment cap.
Climbing Bolt -> Instant grappling hook gun
Invisibility Potion -> when you need it, you'll be glad you have it.
Staves an wands -> extra magic oomph day by day
And that's ignoring the mundane stuff you could buy, like pack animals, carts, tools, clothing, spyglasses, etc.
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Wayfinder -> Compass for one, pretty useful. Also activates resonant powers of Aeon stones, which are some of the most fun items to collect, and there are a bunch of them.
Almost every character I play has a pearly white aeon stone. That 1 per minute HP heal really adds up, especially if you are augmenting it with Medicine checks.
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I will say, that while my group found the existing item choices painfully dull, that homebrewing items was quick.
Also, rip my 8th level player who took 4th item with a DC with one of their 4th level permanent item slots. The new player just assumed that 'if the game says to take items of x level for my y level character, that items of x level will still be valid for my y level character'.
You've never been able to nest extradimensional containers like this, and PF2 is no exception:
An extradimensional effect placed inside another extradimensional space ceases to function until it is removed.
What does that mean, in this context? If I put a load of coins in a bag of holding, then try to put that bag into a second bag of holding, what happens?
Does it return to its natural weight? Does it vomit up its contents? Do the coins just become inaccessible until the bag is removed? (In which case, bag-nesting would be useful, but not for items you're going to need in a hurry.)
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Anyway, this is an endless debate.
Some players want items to be icing on the cake and most of their character strength to come from their features. Others want items to be exciting and affect a lot their abilities. These 2 populations will never agree with each other.
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Anyway, this is an endless debate.
Some players want items to be icing on the cake and most of their character strength to come from their features. Others want items to be exciting and affect a lot their abilities. These 2 populations will never agree with each other.
I don't think these are mutually exclusive. In fact, I want both. I think the game does have the potential to have both, and it's not that hard to kill both birds with one stone. How? Making items that give you cool and powerful new things to do instead of boring math fixers. Currently, most of the best low level items are skill items spend 80% of their power budget on a +1. I want items that give me new, interesting effects, and wanting most of the characters direct power to come from themselves has never come into conflict with that.
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I don't think these are mutually exclusive. In fact, I want both. I think the game does have the potential to have both, and it's not that hard to kill both birds with one stone. How? Making items that give you cool and powerful new things to do instead of boring math fixers. Currently, most of the best low level items are skill items spend 80% of their power budget on a +1. I want items that give me new, interesting effects, and wanting most of the characters direct power to come from themselves has never come into conflict with that.Anyway, this is an endless debate.
Some players want items to be icing on the cake and most of their character strength to come from their features. Others want items to be exciting and affect a lot their abilities. These 2 populations will never agree with each other.
So, you want to give cool and powerful items to your players without these items to be an important part of their character power. So, are they powerful or not?
No, you can't get both. Either items are powerful or items are not a big part of your character efficiency. Having both at the same time is just a lie (either items are not powerful or they are a big part of your power but you hide it behind the fact that they don't give numerical bonuses).As a side note, there are already a lot of very nice low level items: Abadar's Flawless Scales, Hat of Disguise, Bag of Holding... These items are evergreens and if you don't know what to buy with your money it should go there.
But I wouldn't be surprised that the OP wants combat oriented items, and these are very strictly controlled.
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If we are just looking at spell casters, it is pretty much impossible for items which increase the number of spells you can cast per day not to directly increase the power level of your character.
Let's say that, for some greatly mistaken reason, you believe that it is a waste of money to invest in offensive scrolls, and will only by "ever green items."
At level 4 with 300 gold, you could by 5 first level wands.
Now that is honestly probably going to be complete over kill, but it is basically 5 more spells per day your character can cast.
I don't understand how anyone could look at that as trash or not a powerful option for wealth investment. I mean, 25 2nd level scrolls will probably result in you having more success in scenarios, finding more treasure bundles and in turn having more wealth in the future, but if you understand the power budget that has gone into spell casting and number of spells you can cast in a day, it is impossible for the ability to cast more spells per day not to be an increase in character power level for a caster.
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So, you want to give cool and powerful items to your players without these items to be an important part of their character power. So, are they powerful or not?
I think there's a satisfying middle ground here to be achieved with a concept very similar to what Paizo has done with feats: horizontal progression. As long as items give you additional options instead of making what you're already good at better, you'll rarely have the feeling that 80% of your character's power come from your items ahem I'm looking at you Striking Runes. The problem is that the power budget for what magic items can do, outside of just giving you some pluses, is ridiculously low before the higher levels. When the options available for active items are like "if you do a cartwheel with one hand under the moonlight on a Sunday you can turn your success into a crit", of course people are gonna think they have nothing to spend their extra money on. Casters could get more interesting options but at least they have staves, wands and scrolls. Martials tho...
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Actually you can do that easily.
If the current balance had been given by either level and equipment, then it would be similar ( if not the same ) to the current situation.You might argue that then an adventurer must invest into items which give combat power, in order to better perform on the battlefield, but that wouldn't be a real issue, since "any adventurer" would do the same.
A progression in terms of either level/perks and Items doesn't lead to power creep. A bad one does.
You are just stating the same thing I do: If you want powerful items, they will be an important part of your character efficiency. What you are doing is reducing the efficiency you get from your features to increase the one you get from items.
The result is that you need more items to just play your character. Having to buy an item to be efficient doesn't make the item "cool", quite the opposite, it reduces the interest of items.| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Definitely sounds like a case of people playing the game like a combat simulator and not an RPG. Being able to do cool things out of combat is also important. And having some useful consumables in case the s+!! hits the fan is very much in your character's personal interest.
Even if you ONLY want combat enhancers, there are still items to choose from. Ioun stones, wands, various defensive boosts...
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If we are just looking at spell casters, it is pretty much impossible for items which increase the number of spells you can cast per day not to directly increase the power level of your character.
That's because you consider that the X spells per day are already given by the class itself.
Now a class has 3 or 4 per day depends the class.
If you create items which increase the number of spells, you create a progression. If you lower the base spells/lvl given by a class you simply reach the same number of spells, but with magical items.As for consumable items, not all players like them.
And not everybody would like to expend money on consumables.I play 2 campaigns at the moment, and apart from elixirs of life none of my party members, nor me, even considered to buy scrolls or other consumable stuff.
Simply because this would have led to the impossibility to buy permanent stuff ( like staves or wands ) in time before the departure, forcing the party not to rely on them for 1/2/3 more levels ( depends the adventure setting ).
I think there is a really interesting problem with PF2 that didn't get exposed to me until I started playing PFS and that is that APs don't give you enough downtime between encounters for a lot of aspects of the game to really come on line, but that is not the problem presented by the OP who was specifically talking about PFS, where your character will never naturally advance an entire level before having time to restock supplies and get more wealth.
I actually agree that this tends to be a problem in APs because character can go up an entire level or even two in the same dungeon without having ever left. Sometimes, it seems like the expectation in APs is for characters to be pushing themselves to adventure at the exclusion of everything else, so that they are leveling up as often as every day, or every other day.
In that setting per day items become nearly useless because you only get to use them one time per level, but consumables actually become a lot more powerful for you because they mitigate the need to stop adventuring when time pressure elements are pushing the party the hardest.
I think the developers do need to look at how much more valuable consumables are in APs, where they are also simultaneously the least likely to be made available and crafted due to those same time pressures.
Not using scrolls though is one of the fastest ways to feel like casters in PF2 are under powered and incapable of sustaining an extended adventuring day. GMs who read the section in the core rulebook about treasure and rewards will quickly realize that the game is built around the assumption that the GM treats treasures and rewards as a fluid aspect of the game and does not need to be bound to specific limits of an adventure, but I don't think the nature of APs help reinforce that flexibility in play.
The Game is built with the assumption that if you use your consumable resources, you will get more of them, to keep up approximately with the games WBL. If you don't use them, and you horde them and sell them, then the GM is advised to be careful about not letting PCs accumulate too much wealth. That is what is stated in the CRB, but there is nothing in the APs that explain how to handle that. Personally I am fine with that, because the GM gets really good advice about this in the core rulebook and the Game master guide, and flexible wealth charts are just going to take up more space in AP which should be focused on story, not covering all the mechanical situations that different parties might put themselves into, but it is something more GMs need to talk about with their players and be aware for themselves. There is not supposed to be X amount of total GP in a campaign, that the party either finds or does not find. There is X amount of GP that a character should have in equipment at each level, and if they are falling behind, or getting ahead, it is a game problem, not a clever, resourceful character.
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So, you want to give cool and powerful items to your players without these items to be an important part of their character power. So, are they powerful or not?I think there's a satisfying middle ground here to be achieved with a concept very similar to what Paizo has done with feats: horizontal progression. As long as items give you additional options instead of making what you're already good at better, you'll rarely have the feeling that 80% of your character's power come from your items ahem I'm looking at you Striking Runes. The problem is that the power budget for what magic items can do, outside of just giving you some pluses, is ridiculously low before the higher levels. When the options available for active items are like "if you do a cartwheel with one hand under the moonlight on a Sunday you can turn your success into a crit", of course people are gonna think they have nothing to spend their extra money on. Casters could get more interesting options but at least they have staves, wands and scrolls. Martials tho...
Horizontal progression is also character power. If there's a character with boots of fly and another one without, they will hit the same but still: One of them is directly better than the other one.
Now, if by horizontal progression you mean giving items that have absolutely no impact on your fighting ability, like an item which automatically fills your tax declaration, then noone will care about them.Either items give power and they become a necessity to be fully efficient or they don't and they're quite useless. You can find a middle ground, but the satisfying middle ground for you may be an unsatisfying position for someone else.
Buying an item because it's efficient makes it better than not being able to spend moneys in something useful.
These are 2 philosophies:
Either items are powerful and then you will always spend your money on something efficient and never on funny items. And items will be an important part of your character power.Or items are not directly improving your level of power (of not much or you can easily buy all those that do) and you end up having money for fun items which are clearly not powerful/useful.
Of course, you can try to find a middle ground, but for some people the middle ground will lean too much on one side and for others too much on the other side.
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The item problem could easily be solved by a general feat that allowed you to use your class DC or your spell DC instead of the fixed DC of an item (level 7 would be a good level for this IMO). It would also help with Toughness-Fleet-Improved Initiative prevalence.
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1) lvl 4 character with 40 golds and +15 hit
or
2) lvl 4 character with 140 golds and +13 hit ( which becomes +15 hit for 100g worth items, leaving the 40g that also has the character in 1) ).
Nothing changes in terms of balance ( no powerful items ).
And because so, there won't be any need for a middle ground.
First, this is what I call a powerful item, as it gives you a +2. So items are a bigger part of your character overall power (even if it's the same). It has a lot of impacts: If the GM doesn't give you 100gp or if you don't find a +2 item you end up with a character unable to make his schtick properly.
Second, it gives you a false impression of spending your gold. You don't spend 100gp to buy a +2 item, you are forced to spend 100gp unless you end up at -2. You are not happy to buy the item, you are unhappy when you can't.What you are describing is the current state with Potency and Striking runes and it's not fun at all in my opinion. It is a little bit funny to find a rune before its level (like a Striking rune at level 3) but it's also not funny if I can't have Striking runes on my weapons by the time I reach level 5 as I know my character is now subpar.