In Trouble At Durbenford, there is a fight in an area under an Unhallow effect, with the following monsters: 24 skeletons, 1 ghost, and 1 lich. I'm using standard Pathfinder v1 stat blocks for them, but I'm OK to change them. In fact I think I need to.
The players are all level 8, and they will be fresh for this fight (well rested, full spells, and so on). They are: tetori monk, drunken monk, shadowdancer rogue with a shadow companion, shaman with life link, quickened channel energy, and so on with a cassissian angel familiar, and an arcane bloodline sorcerer with a faerie dragon familiar.
I linked to most stat blocks or class rules so you could reference it, but I left out a link to the skeletons because I assume they're irrelevant at this level. The sorcerer will Fireball them as an opener, and kill every single one. So this is a fight against a ghost and a lich.
My problem: this lich will kill 'em, right? The lich can open with the maximized Fireball, and that's 60 points of damage against PCs that have about 40-50 HP (for the sorcerer and shaman and familiars). At that point, the fight is just 2 monks and a rogue against a lich and a ghost. The tetori monk can grapple & pin in a single round, so that seems amazing. The rogue can then stab over & over again until the lich dies. If that ends the fight, great, but also anti-climactic. I assume the lich will Dim Door away (if he passes the concentration check) and then come back with Circle of Death -- which likely kills at least 1 of them. At that point, it's maybe 2 level 8 PCs vs. a lich and ghost.
I have to admit, without even playtesting this, I assume this is a TPK. Do you agree? Am I accurate?
If so, what can change? I was thinking about ways to make the fight seem scary & unwinnable without killing them instantly, thus giving them a chance to run away, or else maybe changing spells to make the fight seem damn hard & scary but while avoiding high-damage save-or-die stuff, so they at least have a chance to win.
What do you guys think? How would you tweak this? Does it even need tweaking?
It depends on if they're all standing close enough together to be fireballed and if they get lucky and make their Reflex save (I assume they can survive 30 damage). You can't really anticipate that stuff. It's also possible they'd have Resist Energy: Fire, which would make it easier.
It probably does need some tweaking. A CR 12 enemy should be enough on its own to battle a level 8 group. It's a deadly encounter even without the ghost ally.
Giving the lich a less optimised selection of spells (like Acid Fog) might be a good way to balance it. It could also just be played less tactically, for example if it opens up by buffing itself for a round or two.
That module says it is for levels 8-14, that encounter is at least a CR 12, if not a CR 14. Has your party not gained any levels? are they encountering this too soon? Something tells me that the party is not ready for this encounter.
That area is for level 9s, so they got to it 1 level before the module expects.
That area is for level 9s, so they got to it 1 level before the module expects.
Are you sure about that? taking a glace through the module it says something about going through the second level before that encounter. and that encounter seems pretty seep into the module. I'd expect the party to be 10-11th level before encountering that.
The skeletons are no big deal, but a ghost and a lich are pretty potent against an 8th level party.
My players would probably strangle me if they went 15 encounters without leveling up, not including the potential or random encounters outside of the place. The lich listed in the book also has much less optimal selections.
Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting,Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll,Silent Spell, Toughness.
Arcane Spells (4/5/5/5/4/2/1; save DC 14 + spell level):
0—arcane mark, daze, detect magic, read magic;
1st—cause fear, color spray, ray of enfeeblement, shield, truestrike;
2nd—blur, flaming sphere, protection from arrows,see invisibility, spectral hand;
3rd—dispel magic, displacement, fireball, hold person (x2), lightning bolt;
4th— animatedead, fear, stoneskin;
5th—cone of cold, feeblemind;
6th—circle of death.
What spell is on the Unhallow?
No spell is on the Unhallow -- it was put in place hundreds of years ago, so that spell ran out. Only the other effects are in place.
is there reason for them to expect a lich may be waiting for them?
Absolutely no reason. There isn't any hint of a lich. I have tried to hint that they shouldn't go there -- the "doorkeeper" to the lich was a bodak that they barely defeated, and the bodak was muttering about keeping them away. So I'm trying to scare them off, but it didn't work.
My players would probably strangle me if they went 15 encounters without leveling up
I'm not sure... what is the context for this comment? I feel like you're referring to my game, but that never happened in my game.
My group is right on target for XP/fights -- they just skipped a bunch of encounters.
The lich listed in the book also has much less optimal selections.
Well, yes, but that's also the stat block for a lich from D&D 3.5 -- back when wizards had a d4 for hit points and people got feats every third level instead of every other level, and so on. The module was just providing a CR 11 fight that matched for D&D 3.5 character power. This is pathfinder, so the Pathfinder CR 11 lich matches Pathfinder character power.
I could just use the 3.5 lich anyway, that's certainly a solution. I think before going that route, I'd try to stick with the Pathfinder stat block and just modify it, maybe remove the save-or-die spells, like Circle of Death?
Just nerf the lich.
In my experience, players just want to feel challenged, not actually be challenged.
As long as you present a lich to them and they beat it, they'll conflate its difficulty in their head and feel proud of themselves.
taking a glace through the module it says something about going through the second level before that encounter.
Yeah, but they didn't.
That's the module author hoping they'd do something that seemed good in his head, even though he put no logical reason to do that in the game itself. Predictably, the PCs are doing what any adventuring group would do: clear the level they're on before hitting the lower dungeon levels; never leave monsters to come at your back when you head deeper into the dungeon.
The lich is just "unknown bad guy behind the next door" -- so the PCs have no indication that it would be wise to save the room for later.
I did try to scare them off, but it didn't take.
Having said that, it does seem like the verdict here is that I will TPK the party, indeed. So maybe I should just accept that it's a TPK, and what I might do is open with Circle of Death immediately, kill 2 or 3 PCs, and then have the lich laugh and let them run away.
If they run back to town they might do some town quests and get better equipped. That's definitely an option.
Just nerf the lich.
In my experience, players just want to feel challenged, not actually be challenged.
As long as you present a lich to them and they beat it, they'll conflate its difficulty in their head and feel proud of themselves.
Oh god, the scouring truth here. Imm not sure I can handle it. This should be a maxim of D&D.
Context is there are like 15 encounters listed before the Lich. Without getting into the random or potential encounters out of the dungeon. If they bypassed encounters and ignored most of the dungeon, then they just die. If they did so in a manner that makes the encounter unlikely to harm them, then they should get exp for "defeating" them.
I won't really get into how 3.5 characters are more powerful in general, but 3.5 adventures don't really pull punches. Moreover, this is a Lich. The pinnacle of Undead. You don't pull punches with Liches.
The monks are likely up front and can pass so it won't affect the squishier targets since there's not enough HD to affect everyone. I'd probably drop the maximized fireball or don't. It's a Lich. Round 1 Circle of Death. Round 2 Wall of Ice off the doorway to keep them from running. Round 3 Do whatever you think comes naturally.
You mention a maximized fireball from the lich. He doesn't have the feat or an item to do a maximized fireball, and he can only cast one.
I'm still thinking the party should be more than 8th level when they encounter this lich, as mentioned above, I think something has been done wrong XP wise.
You mention a maximized fireball from the lich. He doesn't have the feat or an item to do a maximized fireball, and he can only cast one.
I'm still thinking the party should be more than 8th level when they encounter this lich, as mentioned above, I think something has been done wrong XP wise.
He's using the Lich statblock from the bestiary and not the one listed in the book which is from 3.5.
Gonna echo that they should be a higher level. If they've bypassed encounters successfully they should be earning EXP for them. If they somehow skipped them...well that's on you to make sure they're still properly leveled
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You're assuming everyone is bunched up and the lich goes first. If the players get unlucky this could happen and they all fail their saves and die, but that would be really unlucky.
It could also happen that the players go first, the grappler ties the lich into a pretzel, the other guys destroy the ghost, and they take 0 damage and expend minimal resources.
You're assuming everyone is bunched up and the lich goes first. If the players get unlucky this could happen and they all fail their saves and die, but that would be really unlucky.
It could also happen that the players go first, the grappler ties the lich into a pretzel, the other guys destroy the ghost, and they take 0 damage and expend minimal resources.
Could be! Room is pretty tight quarters though. Seems unlikely since there are like 24 skeletons in the way and a ghost running interference.
The Tetori also can't grapple pin the same round they move so if the Lich permanently paralyzes them things can get dicey.
Option 1: The Angel familiar gets a vision warning of great evil and certain death if they proceed on that without more experience to combat such evil. The players take the hint and go somewhere else.
Option 2: Run the encounter to its max and TPK the party. Then reset to the current position. Change up the lich encounter, perhaps swapping out the ghost and adding one or two CR points to the whole.
Play him differently. A terrifying undead wizard dropping a fireball on the party isn't really fun, any wizard could do that.
Have him cast improved invisibility, ice wall the entrance so they can't leave, then proceed to pick the party off with his paralyzing touch. The party feels like they're fighting a ghost and a small army of skeletons, but occasionally one of them falls over apparently dead. If they all die, the lich can lock them up on another level with nothing to eat but each other. If they're smart enough to pick up their dead and run, cool, you scared them without killing them.
He's using the Lich statblock from the bestiary and not the one listed in the book which is from 3.5.You mention a maximized fireball from the lich. He doesn't have the feat or an item to do a maximized fireball, and he can only cast one.
I'm still thinking the party should be more than 8th level when they encounter this lich, as mentioned above, I think something has been done wrong XP wise.
yeah, that's a problem. the characters are limited to what's in the module, but you are upping the monsters by not using what's in the module. Not entirely fair.
Use a Dread Gnome Sorcerer (Undead/Sanguine Bloodline) with a two level Cha-Cha Slide in UnChained Scaled Fist Monk... Magical Knack allows you to make a Lich with 9 levels in Sorcerer, so this Lich only has 4th level spells...
At 11:
BAB +6
Base saves +6/+6/+6
CL 11, 4th level spells
Or, make the Lich a Bloodrager...
At 11:
BAB +11
Base saves +7/+3/+3
CL 11, 3rd level spells
Either way, shifting the focus away from spellcasting makes it infinitely more manageable.
Another fun option is a 12th level Freebooter Ranger with the Magical Knack trait. Handing out a +3/+3 untyped bonus to all those skeletons could be beneficial... and an additional +2 to attack when flanking... as a 12th level Ranger they would have like one 3rd level spell, so a Lich with literally no offensive magic. Lol.
At 12:
BAB +12
Base saves +8/+8/+4
CL 11, 3rd level spells
keep the skeletons in reserve, allow the lich to "summon" them at stages in the combat while it; laughs maniacally, fidgets with some doomsday magical whozawhatzit, prepares a portal to escape, drinks a inflict potion, etc (but should be generally unreachable)...PCs deal with the smaller wave, have some breathing room to also maybe take a gatorade break and then everyone can resume the fight without a noticeable pause in the action.
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Another suggestion: the PCs are breaking and entering into the post-living individual(s) home.
Kill the characters, raise them as undead.
Whether or not that works, kill the players, raise them as undead.
The tried and true method.
I love Liches. One of my all time favorites. I have went out of my way to find new and intersting ways to make Liches.
Make the Lich an Alchemist with the Spell Knowledge Discovery. Literally only has a single spell, but still made the journey into being Lich. Lol.
Vivisectionist makes sense for such a journey... so does an Ectoplasm-Plaguebearer-Reanimator Alchemist... Ratfolk Lich with little Plague Bombs... adorable...
Removing offensive magics makes Liches way more playable, and possibly more fun (depending on the situation)... reoccuring Ranger archers that buff everyone around them can be beneificial without being gamebreaking... a Bloodrager Lich is just a fun reoccuring martial...
Don't lock Liches in some silly box around Maximized Fifeball/Circle of Death... forgrt that crap, have some fun... again and again, if you want...
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There's an atrophied lich in an AP that is designed to fight characters when they're at level 9. There's no allies with it in the adventure, but the allies in the adventure you're running will likely be okay for the party to deal with and will make the lich last longer.
There's a statblock for the atrophied lich HERE.
There's an atrophied lich in an AP that is designed to fight characters when they're at level 9. There's no allies with it in the adventure, but the allies in the adventure you're running will likely be okay for the party to deal with and will make the lich last longer.
There's a statblock for the atrophied lich HERE.
NO! What Kingmaker did to Vordakai is a freaking shame!
He is the oldest "living" thing in existence... he literally remembers when the sky fell... 10,000 years old... bunch of level 8 pukes get to erase his legacy... NO!
Make Nyrissa work for Vordakai, for he is the superior force in the land... give Nyrissa the Lich template because the Eldest ripped out her soul and stuck it in a sword... make the sword her phylactery, obviously... either way, all of Kingmaker should be at the whims and will of Vordakai... not Nyrissa, screw her, she has only been lost without love for, what, a thousand years, or so... Vordakai has forgotten more than she will ever learn...
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I really need to thank everyone. The sheer number of ideas you've provided is amazing. I think I have a much better idea of what to do now and the game is going to be great! Thank you again.
I really need to thank everyone. The sheer number of ideas you've provided is amazing. I think I have a much better idea of what to do now and the game is going to be great! Thank you again.
When's the game? Let us know how it goes!
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You're assuming everyone is bunched up and the lich goes first. If the players get unlucky this could happen and they all fail their saves and die, but that would be really unlucky.
It could also happen that the players go first, the grappler ties the lich into a pretzel, the other guys destroy the ghost, and they take 0 damage and expend minimal resources.
Could be! Room is pretty tight quarters though. Seems unlikely since there are like 24 skeletons in the way and a ghost running interference.
The Tetori also can't grapple pin the same round they move so if the Lich permanently paralyzes them things can get dicey.
The OP's fear is the fight going extremely bad if the dice go in the lich's favor, I was pointing out the other end of the spectrum is equally likely. The actual play would probably land somewhere in between.
The monk doesn't need to pin in the same round. If we assume the sample CR12 lich from the bestiary, it has a CMD of 25. A level 8 grapple build could easily have a +20 to grapple (8bab +5str +2 imp grapple +2 greater grapple +1 armbands of the brawler +2 gauntlets of skilled maneuver. Could also have weapon focus grapple, a higher strength, etc). So assuming a +20, the monk has an 80% chance of successfully grabbing the lich. The lich can then either attempt to escape with his +5 cmb, so needing a nat 20. He can attempt to touch, again with +5. Even if we assume the monk has a terrible AC, it'll still be at least a 16 touch, plus the monk needs to fail a DC18 save which even if he has a 12 con and no resistance item is still at +7. So that's at best a 25% chance of paralyzing the monk, probably much less. If he tried to dimension door he'd need a DC34 concentration check and he has a +17, so that's only a 20% chance of success. Given an 80% chance to grab the lich and a 20% chance for the lich to escape, the odds are at 64% in favor of the monk.
You're assuming everyone is bunched up and the lich goes first. If the players get unlucky this could happen and they all fail their saves and die, but that would be really unlucky.
It could also happen that the players go first, the grappler ties the lich into a pretzel, the other guys destroy the ghost, and they take 0 damage and expend minimal resources.
Could be! Room is pretty tight quarters though. Seems unlikely since there are like 24 skeletons in the way and a ghost running interference.
The Tetori also can't grapple pin the same round they move so if the Lich permanently paralyzes them things can get dicey.
The OP's fear is the fight going extremely bad if the dice go in the lich's favor, I was pointing out the other end of the spectrum is equally likely. The actual play would probably land somewhere in between.
The monk doesn't need to pin in the same round. If we assume the sample CR12 lich from the bestiary, it has a CMD of 25. A level 8 grapple build could easily have a +20 to grapple (8bab +5str +2 imp grapple +2 greater grapple +1 armbands of the brawler +2 gauntlets of skilled maneuver. Could also have weapon focus grapple, a higher strength, etc). So assuming a +20, the monk has an 80% chance of successfully grabbing the lich. The lich can then either attempt to escape with his +5 cmb, so needing a nat 20. He can attempt to touch, again with +5. Even if we assume the monk has a terrible AC, it'll still be at least a 16 touch, plus the monk needs to fail a DC18 save which even if he has a 12 con and no resistance item is still at +7. So that's at best a 25% chance of paralyzing the monk, probably much less. If he tried to dimension door he'd need a DC34 concentration check and he has a +17, so that's only a 20% chance of success. Given an 80% chance to grab the lich and a 20% chance for the lich to escape, the odds are at 64% in favor of the monk.
Lich has time to prepare though since there's a fight just outside. So it's floating 40ft up with it's boots of levitation and has probably preset darkness. It may or may not use it's potion of invisibility, but it likely has a readied action to bomb whatever opens the door with circle of death or fireball. There's also the Ghost spamming it's Malevolence until it sticks to be wary of.
Make it a twisted love story... the Lich and ghost were lovers... the ritual to become a Lich involved killing someone you love... now there's Ghost that remains restless until the Lich is dead... destroying the phylactery kills the Lich and puts the Ghost to rest...
For even more fun, make the Lich a 12th level Witchguard Ranger and gestalt 7 levels of Witch into the Ghost's Aristocrat levels... or just replace the Aristocrat levels with levels in Witch... just give the Ghost a 14 Intelligence and call it good?
Ranger Liches and Witch Ghosts are not in any way optimal, but might be exactly what you are looking for...
If you want to nerf them both further, eliminate half their feats with VMC... VMC the Witchguard Ranger Lich with Witch, and VMC the Witch Ghost with Cleric...
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Lich has time to prepare though since there's a fight just outside. So it's floating 40ft up with it's boots of levitation and has probably preset darkness. It may or may not use it's potion of invisibility, but it likely has a readied action to bomb whatever opens the door with circle of death or fireball. There's also the Ghost spamming it's Malevolence until it sticks to be wary of.
Was going only from the information listed by the op, which didn't say any of that.
It is not possible to ready outside of combat. As soon as the door opens, initiative is rolled as the PCs will see the obvious threat of skeleton horde, there's unlikely to be any possibility of surprise on either side of this encounter.
With powerful spellcaster bosses like this, a lot of how difficult the fight is swings on who wins initiative.
We lived.
Love, the Rogue.
Living through a lich encounter and not bragging about it? Hmm...
-casts detect undead on the 'rogue'-
I'm interested to know if the lich went through any revision or if it was run as is, but that'd be a question for the DM
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So the lich had a big revision, because I had a big realization.
Here's the realization: the module nerfs the lich, even though it's the standard lich. Here's how: the standard D&D 3.5 lich's best spell is Circle of Death, but it only kills those with 8 HD or lower. Since the fight is intended for level 9 characters, the module expects that the lich's Circle of Death is completely useless. At least, that's pretty clearly how it worked back in the days when this module was written.
Knowing this, I decided to do a few things. First, I used the Pathfinder stat block (because it's a Pathfinder game, and we've been using PF stat blocks all the way through) and got rid of Circle of Death, because while it could work on these PCs (they're level 8), the module author clearly didn't expect that to happen. I put Flesh Wall in its place -- weaker spell, but thematic, plus it's necromancy, and good battlefield control.
I gave the lich an unfettered shirt so that it wouldn't be ruined by the monk grapples. To give it this item, I had to remove some of the other magic items, but it also means my players would get that cool anti-grapple shirt if they could beat the lich.
I also swapped the maximized Fireball for quickened Magic Missile -- a bad trade, but the 3.5 lich doesn't have a maximized Fireball, and I wanted the ability to get 2 spells off each round, for more rounds. To compensate for this loss, I gave the lich max HP + max False Life.
R1: Quickened MM, Globe of Invulnerability
R2: Trigger the unfettered shirt because yes he got grappled, then quickened MM
R3: Quickened MM + Cone of Cold
R4: ded
So I made some big miscalculations for this group. The Cone of Cold should have done great damage, but the rogue + monks all have Evasion and all saved. I should have known, but maybe it's for the best because the lich wouldn't have known. The Globe of Invulnerability is foolish because the main damage dealers are... the rogue and 2 monks. So the globe doesn't protect against them at all.
And the monks are literally exactly what is needed to bypass the lich's DR -- magic fists, bludgeoning, and used ki & haste to get a ridiculous number of attacks.
If the lich had survived to round 4, he would have Dimension Door'd away.
Between all the bad guys, I'd guess I probably only managed to deal about 150 points of damage -- enough to take down 2 of them, but the shaman was using quickened channel to do 12d6 healing in any round that needed it. My damage couldn't outpace her healing.
In the end, they fought a lich and won -- a lich that wasn't as mean as it could have been, but it was pretty close to what the module wanted, and I gave the lich a couple of advantages (such as the anti-monk shirt) so it seemed like it turned out OK.
Thank you all for the help!
Yes! Muhahaha!
Playing a lich like a blaster caster probably not the best of takes, but you do you my dude.
Murder of yet another innocent post-living person - will the injustice never end?
Design terrain to split up the groups of minions so it takes more than one spell and one Channel to clear the field. They don't even all have to be in the same room to start.
Have a portcullis at the entrance to the chamber... let the Rogue check it for traps/triggers, there are none to detect... the Ghost stands guard in an alcove above the portcullis, intelligently operating the lever to divide the party as they enter... once the gate drops, the Ghost drops through the floor and down from the ceiling to attack those trapped behind the portcullis...
Could have the Lich open with Glitterdust, sure it's only a ~18 DC, but that might blind the Rogue... either way, they aren't hiding anymore. Anyone who is blind is a going to be easier to hit with the Lich's paralyzing touch attach... and if it's the Rogue, then they might just fail against that, too.
I imagine the Ghost can take care of the Sorcerer and the Rogue is paralyzed... just Summon Swarm and Magic Missile the monks to death...