Generally, what is the most powerful D6 hit die class?

[David knott 242]

MrCharisma wrote:

Also, I don't really understand why you think Wizards are better at scrolls ... Sorcerers can use scrolls too.

Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level. Other classes would actually have to spend a feat slot for it.

[Firebug]

Theaitetos wrote:

Firebug wrote:

Proactive vs Reactive. You have to choose to use the Echoing Rod when you cast the spell, vs afterwards at any time (but a standard action) to recharge the spell with the pearl of power.

Yeah, you use Echoing on spells that you use again: can't go wrong echoing a Fireball (Summon Monster, ... or whatever primary spells you use a lot). That way you don't even need a Pearl/Runestone because you still have the spell-slot left, that would have gone into a second Fireball.

Instead, the wizard prepares a Fireball and later uses a Pearl to cast it a second time? Less than efficient.

Echoing is immensely efficient in keeping your primary spell-slots afloat.

No, its the opposite. A pearl is for bringing back your utility spells that you didn't know you needed.

The Wizard prepares (and casts) Fireball, Haste(twice), and a Protection from Energy(fire). Then realizes there are 3 fights today, so uses the Pearl to get back another Haste. Or that there are a bunch of mooks in the next room. Or the next room is full of acidic vapors.

Echoing makes Spontaneous Casters more Prepared, and Pearls make Prepared Caster more Spontaneous.

[Theaitetos]

Firebug wrote:

No, its the opposite. A pearl is for bringing back your utility spells that you didn't know you needed.

The Wizard prepares (and casts) Fireball, Haste(twice), and a Protection from Energy(fire). Then realizes there are 3 fights today, so uses the Pearl to get back another Haste. Or that there are a bunch of mooks in the next room. Or the next room is full of acidic vapors.

Exactly, this is inefficient. With Echo a sorcerer can have 2 Fireballs and 2 Hastes for the price of just 2 slots, and still has all his other slots left for whatever he needs later. The wizard has to clutch his Pearls and hope he prepared the right spell to recharge. So:

Sorcerer + Echo > Wizard + Pearl

[MrCharisma]

David knott 242 wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Also, I don't really understand why you think Wizards are better at scrolls ... Sorcerers can use scrolls too.

Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level. Other classes would actually have to spend a feat slot for it.

It's a 1st level feat guys.

[MrCharisma]

Derklord wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

As Derklord said, if you have 20 encounters per day a Sorcerer will win out, but you don't need 20 for the balance to tip (10 would certainly be enough, possibly 6).

Actually, with many fights per day, Witch wins out hands down.

My point was about prepaired vs spontaneous casters, not actually about Wizard and Sorcerer. But yes Witches have a lot of staying power.

Quote:

MrCharisma wrote:

In the first encounter of the day the prepaired caster has the advantage, they have more spells available to them, so their list of options is greater.

It doesn't actually have to be the first encounter, though - if you know you're gonna fight the BBEG that day (or any kind of boss, really), you can save your best spells for that combat, mainly using the multiple copies of some lower level spell you've prepared for the encounters beforehand.

That's a good point. The Wizard can prepair the uber-spell and save it for the boss, but it's still 1 encounter where they get to use that spell. The Sorcerer can re-use their best spells over a few encounters and not worry about dead spell-slots.

[Theaitetos]

MrCharisma wrote:

My point was about prepaired vs spontaneous casters, not actually about Wizard and Sorcerer. But yes Witches have a lot of staying power.

Oracles, bards, ... aren't d6 classes though. =P

Prepared casters have the perfect toolkit, meanwhile spontaneous casters. 8-)

Not exactly a class feature, but what do you think the Favored Class Options are like between these classes?
More Spells Known is really great on sorcerers and Kitsune get badass enchantment DCs.
Do wizards have any school powers that are worth upgrading with FCB or are there other FCBs people take?
Elf Arcanists have a good option, but the other races don't seem so strong; a shadow caster Fetchling is probably happy though.
Do Witches have good options for core races? The rare "bio-races" can get some non-witch spells.
The Psychic has options to increase his pool or amplifications.

[Firebug]

Theaitetos wrote:

Firebug wrote:

No, its the opposite. A pearl is for bringing back your utility spells that you didn't know you needed.

The Wizard prepares (and casts) Fireball, Haste(twice), and a Protection from Energy(fire). Then realizes there are 3 fights today, so uses the Pearl to get back another Haste. Or that there are a bunch of mooks in the next room. Or the next room is full of acidic vapors.

Exactly, this is inefficient. With Echo a sorcerer can have 2 Fireballs and 2 Hastes for the price of just 2 slots, and still has all his other slots left for whatever he needs later. The wizard has to clutch his Pearls and hope he prepared the right spell to recharge. So:

Sorcerer + Echo > Wizard + Pearl

And the Wizard has 2 Fireballs and 2 Hastes for the price of 2 slots also with the same Echoing Rod. So how is that less efficient?

In my example (fireball, haste x2, protection from elements) could be a Wizard at level 6 for spells memorized that day. A 6th level sorcerer can also cast 4 spells per day (assuming a 16 cha) but will have only 1 spell known or 0 if they were crossblooded (which tends to be what I usually see because orc/draconic for the damages). So no, they can't cast Fireball and Haste and possibly neither! At 7 a Sorcerer can match the 3 spells known as long as their Bloodline contributes an appropriate spell. But then the Wizard is already at the next tier of spells.

Now if you were making the argument that Pearls are more expensive than a Rod where you use all the charges on 3rd level spells, well yeah... They just do different things as I explained. If your GM doesn't throw Curveballs you can get the most out of Echoing.

For example, you Echo your Fireball, and find out all that the monsters you fight today are immune to fire. Wasted. So you Echo Haste and find out that there are no more combat encounters. Then you Echo Protection from Elements(Fire) because someone has to stick their hand in the forge to get the mcguffin key. But then you could be in a situation where another Fly would have gotten the whole party up the cliff but you already used all of your Echos on spells you didn't need. Etc. In that case, a Runestone/Pearl would be more useful when you don't know what's coming up and have extremely different situations through the day. IE, Reactive vs Proactive.

The prepared caster is even able to draw the rod as a move action and cast the same round and a spontaneous caster cannot because using a metamagic rod for them is a full-round action. So Spontaneous Caster is less efficient Action-wise.

I think you are also missing the opportunity cost of using a different metamagic rod instead of Echoing. Sure, you can cast two Fireballs from a single slot with Echoing, but would you rather have a singe Maximized Fireball instead? Same price. Just about the same damage(2 sets of 3.5 per die vs 6), but only 1 round of casting vs 2. And the Prepared Caster can use the pearl to get back the fireball, and the spontaneous needs the more expensive runestone.

Now, Echoing vs Runestone for a Spontaneous Caster? Definitely Echoing in almost every case... when you use it on spells you know you are going to use again. Runestone if you find you have to recast a lot of 1st level spells... but at that point get 2.6 Wands of whatever you are recasting unless you care about the DC/CL.

Your better argument would have been the casting of 4 Fireballs out of 2 spell slots when the wizard only prepared 1 that day. But throw in a single Runestone/Pearl/Arcane Bond along with the Echoing Rod, and both are casting 4 out of 1 spell slot.

[Mudfoot]

MrCharisma wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level. Other classes would actually have to spend a feat slot for it.

It's a 1st level feat guys.

More to the point, the wizard can scribe any spell he knows. The sorcerer can also scribe any spell he knows. Those two numbers are very different.

[Derklord]

Theaitetos wrote:

Scavion wrote:

and Bonded Object is significantly better on the Wizard than it is on the Sorcerer.

This you have to explain, or do you mean "the Bonded Object is significantly more useful to the wizard than the sorcerer"? Because otherwise the bonded object is the exact same for both casters: Sorcerers can use spellbooks for this feat as well, not just wizards.

What? "Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook)." CRB pg. 73

MrCharisma wrote:

The Wizard can prepair the uber-spell and save it for the boss, but it's still 1 encounter where they get to use that spell. The Sorcerer can re-use their best spells over a few encounters and not worry about dead spell-slots.

This is actually not true. A Sorcerer's spells per day of the highest spell level they can cast is never more than than what a Wizard of the same level has spell slots of that or higher level (at lvl 3+). It's only the lower level spells that the Sorcerer has more of and where the flexibility of spontaneous casting helps.

Let's compare a 6th level Transmutation Wizard and a 6th level Sorcerer, both want to buff their party with Haste every combat.
The Sorc only knows Haste as a 3rd level spell, and has four castings of it per day. The Wizard has four spell slots to preprare, and can prepare Haste four times, for the exact same 3rd level spells cast throughout the day. With only one 4rd level spell known by the Sorcerer, the theoretical flexibility of spontaneous casting is non-existent for 4rd level spells.

What I was talking about was that in addition to the above, the Wizard of the above example has the ability to prepare something different as their fourth spell, and have access to two different 3rd level spells for the toughest encounter that day (for the price of not having Haste one other fight that day).
At 7th levels, the Sorc would gain two more 3rd level spells known (one being the bloodline spell), but the Wizard would have access to 4th level spells, and have more combined 3rd and 4th level spells per day.

[MrCharisma]

Derklord wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

The Wizard can prepair the uber-spell and save it for the boss, but it's still 1 encounter where they get to use that spell. The Sorcerer can re-use their best spells over a few encounters and not worry about dead spell-slots.

This is actually not true. A Sorcerer's spells per day of the highest spell level they can cast is never more than than what a Wizard of the same level has spell slots of that or higher level (at lvl 3+). It's only the lower level spells that the Sorcerer has more of and where the flexibility of spontaneous casting helps.

Right. I actually did cover that in my analysis of which class is the best, and that's the reason Wziard wins. However it's not the point I'm trying to make here. This isn't about "Wizard vs Sorcerer", it's about "Prepaired vs Spontaneous casters". Wizards get bonus spell-slots, but Witches don't. Go down to the 6/9 casters and the Prepaired casters don't get early access to spells either. The defining advantage in casting ability between a Wizard and a Sorcerer is that Wizards get higher level spells earlier, not that they're Prepaired casters.

So back to the point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make.

Let's say you have a 6th level party, and you either have a Sorcerer or a Wizard.

The Wizard prepairs Haste twice and Fly twice.

The Sorcerer knows Haste and Fly.

First encounter you need Haste.

Second encounter you need Fly twice.

Third encounter you need Fly again. Suddenly the Wizard is out of options. (Now I know someonee will say "Bonded Object", but again I'm not really talking about the Wizard and Sorcerer, I'm just using them as examples. Since Bonded Object isn't a class feature all Prepaired casters have it's irrelevant.)

Over the course of the day the Prepaired caster's options become more and more limited, while the Spontaneous caster only loses options when they run out of spell-slots.

[Firebug]

MrCharisma wrote:

So back to the point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make.

Let's say you have a 6th level party, and you either have a Sorcerer or a Wizard.

The Wizard prepairs Haste twice and Fly twice.

The Sorcerer knows Haste and Fly.

So the Sorcerer spent 9k on a Page of Spell Knowledge type 3 then? I think you missed the rebuttal that a 6th level Sorcerer only has ONE 3rd level spell known.

MrCharisma wrote:

First encounter you need Haste.

Second encounter you need Fly twice.

And the Sorcerer was out of luck on the second encounter, since they only had Haste known or are 9k gold behind... which is the same cost as a Pearl of Power type 3.

And that's not including Crossblooded, which means the 6th level Sorcerer has Zero 3rd level spells known.

[VoodistMonk]

Nevermind the burden of actually carrying the entirety of your magical knowledge around in a literal book... flimsy paper BS that cannot get wet or be exposed to fire... two things QUITE common in this game...

Tell me, Wizard, where is your advantage when the party meets its very first enemy Fireball?

Did Susan, the Wizard, become irrevelant because we had to cross the creek? We lost 3 oxen and broke a wagon wheel, but did the Wizard also lose their spellbook? Did we rescue the fire from the baby? Did the Wizard's stupid diary get burnt in the process? Did that Sunder archer break your toys? Breaking or killing an Arcane Bond/Holy Symbol is an easy way to reduce spellcaster capacity... all my enemy NPC's are aware of this...

Nope, my magic is in my blood, b!tches... you may get new spells faster, yeah, write them down in that book of yours...

I know keeping the stupid books safe is guaranteed in mid and late levels, but common challenges present an extra challenge early on for your little library...

[avr]

A wizard whose spellbook has been threatened gets secluded grimoire or book ward or just a secure case (adapt a familiar carrier) to carry it in. Not that most GMs make a big issue of it, but the tools are there to deal with bibliophobes if need be.

[Firebug]

Pretty sure VoodistMonk was being sarcastic since a few of the things were 'rescue the fire from the baby', and 'sunder archer'.

[MrCharisma]

You know what, it's my own fault. I shouldn't have included Wizard and Sorcerer at all in this.

(Yes you're correct I messed up a detail. It's also irrelevant.)

Derklord wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

The Wizard can prepair the uber-spell and save it for the boss, but it's still 1 encounter where they get to use that spell. The Sorcerer can re-use their best spells over a few encounters and not worry about dead spell-slots.

This is actually not true. A Sorcerer's spells per day of the highest spell level they can cast is never more than than what a Wizard of the same level has spell slots of that or higher level (at lvl 3+). It's only the lower level spells that the Sorcerer has more of and where the flexibility of spontaneous casting helps.

Right. I actually did cover that in my analysis of which class is the best, and that's the reason Wizard wins. However it's not the point I'm trying to make here. This isn't about "Wizard vs Sorcerer", it's about "Prepaired vs Spontaneous casters". Wizards get bonus spell-slots, but Witches don't. Go down to the 6/9 casters and the Prepaired casters don't get early access to spells either. The defining advantage in casting ability between a Wizard and a Sorcerer is that Wizards get higher level spells earlier, not that they're Prepaired casters.

So back to the point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make.

Let's say you have a 6th 9th level party, and you either have a Sorcerer Bard or a Wizard Magus.

The Wizard Magus prepairs Haste twice and Fly twice.

The Sorcerer Bard knows Haste and Fly.

First encounter you need Haste.

Second encounter you need Fly twice.

Third encounter you need Fly again. Suddenly the Wizard Magus is out of options. (Now I know someonee will say "Bonded Object" "Spell Recall", but again I'm not really talking about the Wizard Magus and Sorcerer Bard, I'm just using them as examples. Since Bonded Object Spell Recall isn't a class feature all Prepaired casters have it's irrelevant.)

Over the course of the day the Prepaired caster's options become more and more limited, while the Spontaneous caster only loses options when they run out of spell-slots.

Is that better?

[VoodistMonk]

I was being partially facetious with my comments about a Wizard's precious diary... partially.

At lower levels, as a GM, if you are going to punish the martials with difficult terrain rules, or bother with cover/concealment at all, or any Acrobatics/Climb/Swim checks... then the possibility of a freaking book being ruined should also probably be a standard consideration. Not picking on anyone in particular, but it's a freaking river, and you all are level 2...

Sunder archers are very much a thing in my games... Sunder is so seldom useful as a playable character because loot is precious... but as the enemy, there is nothing more memorable for you to accomplish than to break their expensive toys or kill their Familiars... boo-ya, a place at the table, forever framed in the halls of infamy... my favorite is a Gatecrasher Half-Orc Holomog Demolitionist Investigator with three levels of Archer Fighter and a HornBow... working towards Iconclastic Strike... maybe throw in a level of Toxophilite Ranger for Arrow-Splitter?

Everything I touch, I break... I want to break you down...

Doesn't matter, if the encounter calls for an archer, I have options... hide your Holy Symbols, your Familiars, your Ioun Stones, your wands, your shields, your weapons, your armor...

[OmniMage]

I think the Arcanist is the best. They cast spells spontaneously and they can change their spells 'known' on a daily basis. They are a potent mix of Wizards and Sorcerers. The arcane exploit, quick study, allows them to change one of their prepared spells to another spell fast enough to matter in combat. Costs 1 exploit point and a full round action (provokes). Its faster than a Wizard preparing spells, and it doesn't require those slots be empty before hand.

I'll say that a well prepared Wizard is a contender for second place.

If you want to get into archetypes, then the Spell Sage archetype is a useful one. It can cast any spell on the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell list, a few times per day. This means it can be a backup Cleric (so they can cast raise dead on the Cleric). No magic items or use magic device skill required.

Sorcerers do a few things well, but they don't do so well in fields outside of their focus. They can use magic items to fill this gap.

I'm not sure on the rest.

[VoodistMonk]

Yes, the closer you get to owning your own magic, the better you get... yes, having access to more spells is going to be better... nothing beats just BEING magical, though... yeah, study all the tricks to learn and acquire more spells known... own your magics... let the Wizards have their, umm, place... as plot devices and crafters of destiny... for all of us that just want to be part of the game, and not HAVE to control the narrative... I think the "delayed" spell progression of spontaneous casters will prove beneficial...

All the bonded objects and pearls and runesa and whathaveyous will never make up for simply owning your own magics...

[Scavion]

MrCharisma wrote:

Over the course of the day the Prepared caster's options become more and more limited, while the Spontaneous caster only loses options when they run out of spell-slots.

Is that better?

The difference would be, a Prepared Caster's options begin more broad and diminish as the day goes on and can change those selections day to day whereas the Spontaneous caster's scope begins small and remains that way forever.

MrCharisma wrote:

So back to the point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make.

Let's say you have a 6th 9th level party, and you either have a Sorcerer Bard or a Wizard Magus.

Contriving scenarios where a general spell is one that is exactly required could possibly show the advantage a spontaneous caster has. Thankfully, there are usually enough "Good 'Nuff" spells to toss at the equation.

and yeah, if a Bard somehow got Fly on their spell list then they would look pretty good in that specific scenario. Unfortunately they don't, so I guess they didn't do anything in encounter 2 and 3.

[Firebug]

MrCharisma wrote:

So back to the point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make.

Let's say you have a 6th 9th level party, and you either have a Sorcerer Bard or a Wizard Magus.

Bard (6-list spontaneous, except Occultist) is weird compared to Magus (6-list prepared). They actually have the same number of spells per day at each level and the same chart. So sure, controlled for that variable.

For 6-list Spontaneous at every level (not counting high ability score) it actually has more(or the same, but never less) spells known than it has spells per day. Your level 9 Bard example has 4 Spells known, and 3 per day (but likely +1 from high ability score, so equal at worst). A level 9 Magus is only going to have 3(+ high ability score). Contrast that to a Sorcerer, where they always have fewer spells known compared to spells per day at every level. At 9 they know 5/4/3/2 compared to 6/6/6/4 per day and high ability score makes that difference more pronounced.

Scavion wrote:

The difference would be, a Prepared Caster's options begin more broad and diminish as the day goes on and can change those selections day to day whereas the Spontaneous caster's scope begins small and remains that way forever

Basically, 6-list Spontaneous is almost always going to have more spells known than 6-List Prepared has per day and they have the same number per day. The only time this reverses is when you start getting 2 bonus spells for high ability score.

So the only advantage a Prepared 6-list has over a Spontaneous 6-list is that they can change day to day, action economy with metamagic, and maybe cheaper magic items (pearl vs runestone).

Everything else is in favor of Spontaneous 6-list. What this tells me, if they wanted to keep the same feel as Wizard vs Sorcerer, is that Prepared 6-List actually needs buffed or Spontaneous 6-list needed nerfs.

Heck, look at Sorcerer 4 vs Bard 4. Sorcerer has a single 2nd level known but 3/day vs Bard which has two 2nd level known but 1/day.

Scavion wrote:

and yeah, if a Bard somehow got Fly on their spell list then they would look pretty good in that specific scenario. Unfortunately they don't, so I guess they didn't do anything in encounter 2 and 3.

Gaseous Form, maybe? Not personal, Fly at 10', and lasts longer than fly anyway... its also terrible.

[MrCharisma]

Scavion wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

Over the course of the day the Prepared caster's options become more and more limited, while the Spontaneous caster only loses options when they run out of spell-slots.

Is that better?

The difference would be, a Prepared Caster's options begin more broad and diminish as the day goes on and can change those selections day to day whereas the Spontaneous caster's scope begins small and remains that way forever.

That's more or less the point I've been trying to make, but people keep getting hung up on stupid irrelevant details.

Prepaired caster versatility meter = 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0

Spontaneous caster versatility meter = 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 0

Quote:

MrCharisma wrote:

So back to the point I'm trying (and apparently failing) to make.

Let's say you have a 6th 9th level party, and you either have a Sorcerer Bard or a Wizard Magus.

Contriving scenarios where a general spell is one that is exactly required could possibly show the advantage a spontaneous caster has. Thankfully, there are usually enough "Good 'Nuff" spells to toss at the equation.

I was contriving a scenario so that people could see an actual example since discussing it theoretically wasn't working.

I have a Bard and a Wizard in my Iron Gods party and I've seen the Wizard have this problem. We're at level 11, so the Wizard has access to spells 2 levels higher than the Bard and has nearly twice as many spells per day than the bard (and the Wizard's player is much better than the Bard's player), and I've STILL seen him have more trouble finding useful spells than the Bard as the day wears on.

Quote:

and yeah, if a Bard somehow got Fly on their spell list then they would look pretty good in that specific scenario. Unfortunately they don't, so I guess they didn't do anything in encounter 2 and 3.

Speaking of being hung up on stupid irrelevant details ... The actual classes/spells don't matter, the point is about how you expend resources throughout the day, not which class has which spells (although I am genuinely surprised Fly isn't on the Bard's list).

[Firebug]

Let's eliminate another variable, the spell-list.

Let's look at 2 Magus in the party, Vanilla (no archetypes) vs Eldritch Scion (which gets casting like a bard plus a bloodline).

Vanilla Prepares: Haste x2, Fly x2; 5 2nd level (TBD if we care); 6 1st level (TBD); 5 cantrips (TBD)
Eldritch Scion has: Haste, Fly and 2 other 3rd level spells known and can cast 4 just like Vanilla. 4 2nd known (+1 specific from Bloodline) and 5 per day, same as Vanilla. 5 1st known (+1 specific from Bloodline) and 6 per day, same as Vanilla. 6 Cantrips, so +1 better.

How is being spontaneous ever worse? Sure, pick a spontaneous without bloodline spells, but even then we're only 1 less known at 1st and 2nd, but can still cast any combination of them.

[MrCharisma]

Firebug wrote:

Let's eliminate another variable, the spell-list.

Let's look at 2 Magus in the party, Vanilla (no archetypes) vs Eldritch Scion (which gets casting like a bard plus a bloodline).

Goddammit I wish I'd thought of that ... -_-

[MrCharisma]

Firebug wrote:

How is being spontaneous ever worse? Sure, pick a spontaneous without bloodline spells, but even then we're only 1 less known at 1st and 2nd, but can still cast any combination of them.

I think the Prepaired caster still has more options at the beginning of the day.

Tracking down a Dragon - prepair some appropriate offensive/defensive elemental spells.
Going on a boat - prepair some aquatic survival spells.
Ally caught a disease/curse/etc yesterday - prepair Remove Disease/Curse/etc.

There are plenty of situations where having the ability to swap out your spells for something more specifically useful is going to be a boon.

Essentially the Prepaired casters get more options at the beginning of the day, but Spontaneous casters retain their options till the end of the day.

Except Arcanists ... they get the best of both worlds.

[MrCharisma]

(Also sorry I said "stupid ireelevnt details".

Misunderstanding me doesn't make you stupid, it just means i didn't communicate as well as I could have, sorry about that.

I'd remove that but I just missed the window to do so.)

[avr]

Keeping a spell slot open and preparing it later is another trick for versatility that prepared casters do. It's not always possible to use of course, but often enough. Arcanists are especially good at it.

[VoodistMonk]

Or, we can literally just look at how things play out normally... not this specific class vs that specific archetype... standard WBL w/o downtime crafting... 1-5 encounters per "day"...

1-6...

7-11...

12-16...

17+...

These are the levels that matter to all of those "other than Wizards" players...

1-8...

9-15...

16+...

If we want to just level the playing field at 3/4 BAB... forget what levels the spells come in... put everything into context where the rest of the party is...

What D6 class is most powerful at the levels that matter? Answer is, depends on the environment/campaign/tempo...

Some low level cammpaigns (~1-6/8) may only need a Sorcerer with Color Spray/Fireball, or a high level campaign (~16+) may require every trick in a god-Wizard's toolbox... 75% of the official AP's can be beaten with 3/4 BAB, 6/9 casters... regardless of whether they may, or may not be, prepared versus spontaneous casters...

Your power is freaking meaningless unless it contributes to the party getting past what they encounter.

If the spontaneous caster doesn't know the right spell, then they are a non-factor... if the prepared caster didn't prepare the right spell, or doesn't have time to, non-factor... which D6 class can always meaningfully contribute the most?

Probably the Witch, because Hexes alone...

[UnArcaneElection]

Derklord wrote:

{. . .}

UnArcaneElection wrote:

(*)Probably should be banned. Proposed quick and easy fix: Make Paragon Surge Enchantment instead of Transmutation.

Proposed quick and easy fix: Just ban crafting...

That's what PFS did, and it works, but is unsatisfying, because it also hoses those who were prepared to pay their proper dues for crafting.

Theaitetos wrote:

{. . .}

UnArcaneElection wrote:

(*)Probably should be banned. Proposed quick and easy fix: Make Paragon Surge Enchantment instead of Transmutation.

That's not a fix, just a cobblestone to overcome:

"Change Magic (Su)" wrote:

Even the nature of magic is susceptible to your powerful transmutations. You can spend this boon as a swift action to declare a non-transmutation spell you are casting to be “changed magic.” This spell becomes a transmutation effect, and benefits from any abilities or feats that influence your transmutation spells and can be applied to the spell you cast (such as Spell Focus).

{. . .}

That's WAY further up the tech tree, though (approaching Capstone), assuming that you don't get a drop of this item at way before expected level. Up at that level (or even a bit before), you could probably reasonably Limited Wish(*) to duplicate Paragon Surge (even if you aren't a Half-Elf) with a suitably extended duration.

(*)Wish would do it for sure, but that's much more expensive. If you are a divine caster or a Witch with the right Patron, on the other hand, Miracle will do the job without the extra expense.

[Scavion]

Firebug wrote:

Let's eliminate another variable, the spell-list.

Let's look at 2 Magus in the party, Vanilla (no archetypes) vs Eldritch Scion (which gets casting like a bard plus a bloodline).

Vanilla Prepares: Haste x2, Fly x2; 5 2nd level (TBD if we care); 6 1st level (TBD); 5 cantrips (TBD)
Eldritch Scion has: Haste, Fly and 2 other 3rd level spells known and can cast 4 just like Vanilla. 4 2nd known (+1 specific from Bloodline) and 5 per day, same as Vanilla. 5 1st known (+1 specific from Bloodline) and 6 per day, same as Vanilla. 6 Cantrips, so +1 better.

How is being spontaneous ever worse? Sure, pick a spontaneous without bloodline spells, but even then we're only 1 less known at 1st and 2nd, but can still cast any combination of them.

Ah now here is something to talk about. Aside from the scenarios MrCharisma stated in support of prepared casting, I would add that consumable spell slots are of higher value to the prepared caster than the diminishing returns a spontaneous caster receives.

What I mean by that is, say for example, both receive a wand of lightning bolt. This is generally a very nice filler spell right? However a SpontCaster who has Lightning Bolt as a spell known is kinda meh about it as they already only had a few choices and lightning bolt may have already been what they mostly cast. If they weren't running low on spell slots before, the wand is feeling kind of superfluous or they may desire to sell it. Even worse, they might have other general attack spells known that get set aside to use the wand.

Meanwhile PrepCaster just prepares something else and uses the wand until it burns out.

[Kurald Galain]

Echoing Rod strikes me as overpriced, in that by the time you can afford it, you have sufficient spell slots to not need it. Likewise, I rarely buy a pearl or stone for level 2 spells, and never above that (they're very affordable for level 1, though). So I don't think this item contributes to class power, other than noting that both classes have (much) better ways to spend their money.

I find sorcerers really need more spells known though (frankly, so do all spontaneous casters). If your bloodline doesn't give good spells, then I'd strongly recommend either the FCB, or investing heavily in pages of Spell Knowledge. Those pages are among the best magical items for any spontaneous caster, really. I've never seen a crossblooded in play, largely for this reason.

And scrolls? Meh. Sure, the wizard can craft them better, but in most campaigns you can just buy them. It's not really a big deal that you spend 150gp on a scroll instead of crafting it for 75; scrolls are pretty cheap, and utility spells tend to be low level.

[Kurald Galain]

Firebug wrote:

Let's look at 2 Magus in the party, Vanilla (no archetypes) vs Eldritch Scion (which gets casting like a bard plus a bloodline).

That's a good point. I think the intended balance is that spontaneous casting is stronger BUT prepared casters get their higher-level spells earlier. Note that almost all partial casters are spontaneous, and if partial casters have the wrong spells for a situation they can generally switch to melee.

VoodistMonk wrote:

If the spontaneous caster doesn't know the right spell, then they are a non-factor... if the prepared caster didn't prepare the right spell, or doesn't have time to, non-factor... which D6 class can always meaningfully contribute the most?

If the witch didn't pick the right hex, then they are also a non-factor. Because let's face it, there are some bad hexes out there; not everybody is a slumber-spammer.

Overall I'd say that spontaneous casters are much easier to play than prepared casters, and that is a big factor in their effectiveness to casual players. Spontaneous casters are fine if they pick generic-useful-sounding spells; to actually take advantage of preparing the right spells for a situation takes more player skill.

[Sysryke]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Yes, the closer you get to owning your own magic, the better you get... yes, having access to more spells is going to be better... nothing beats just BEING magical, though... yeah, study all the tricks to learn and acquire more spells known... own your magics... let the Wizards have their, umm, place... as plot devices and crafters of destiny... for all of us that just want to be part of the game, and not HAVE to control the narrative... I think the "delayed" spell progression of spontaneous casters will prove beneficial...

All the bonded objects and pearls and runesa and whathaveyous will never make up for simply owning your own magics...

It didn't get a lot of traction, and that's okay, but I started a thread on this idea. Whether it's mechanically stronger or not, I like a class that "feels" more magical. I can appreciate all of the discipline and work it takes to be a wizard, but the intrinsic nature of a sorcerer's power appeals to me more. Sort of why I like the X-men more than other superheroes.

[Theaitetos]

Firebug wrote:

And the Wizard has 2 Fireballs and 2 Hastes for the price of 2 slots also with the same Echoing Rod. So how is that less efficient?

So you admit the Rod is more useful than the Pearl? OK.

Firebug wrote:

In my example (fireball, haste x2, protection from elements) could be a Wizard at level 6 for spells memorized that day. A 6th level sorcerer can also cast 4 spells per day (assuming a 16 cha) but will have only 1 spell known or 0 if they were crossblooded (which tends to be what I usually see because orc/draconic for the damages)...

So we're no longer comparing the Rod to the Pearl? Your entire post is a huge list of other things, that have nothing to do with the Rod vs Pearl issue.

p.s.: You can use another metamagic rod when you cast your echoed spell, so all that Maximize-Rod + Pearl vs Runestone is off-topic as well.

Derklord wrote:

What? "Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook)." CRB pg. 73

Are you sure you're using the latest version? I see conflicting entries for the Arcane bloodline rules:

d20PFSRD wrote:

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

AoN wrote:

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

?

[SheepishEidolon]

Theaitetos wrote:

Are you sure you're using the latest version?

The 6th printing of CRB should be the most current one and has the "(unlike a wizard's bonded item" entry.

While AoN clearly lacks the entry, d20PFSRD still has a weird shift in sentence order and omits "Rules for arcane bonds appear on page 78". I will write to AoN...

[Theaitetos]

Thank you, then I retract my statement.

[Derklord]

MrCharisma wrote:

This isn't about "Wizard vs Sorcerer", it's about "Prepaired vs Spontaneous casters". Wizards get bonus spell-slots, but Witches don't. Go down to the 6/9 casters and the Prepaired casters don't get early access to spells either.

Are you seriously criticizing me right for not getting that in a thread exclusively about full casters, in a post where you name-drop Sorerer and Wizard, you're actually talking about something that has nothing to do with either the thread's topic or the classes you've named? Are you f#~&ing kidding me?

You're failing to make your point because it is purely off-topic. No matter how much you chose to ignore it, or disingenuously call it an "irrelevant detail", the singular highest level spell known is part of the limitation of spontaneous full casting, and thus must be part of the evaluation for those classes. This thread isn't about 6/9 casters. This thread isn't about a theoretical situation where prepared full casters didn't have the spell level advantage. The thread is about how the arcane full casters and Psychic compare to each other, and an "irrelevant detail" like the number of spells know is vitally important to that.

MrCharisma wrote:

The defining advantage in casting ability between a Wizard and a Sorcerer is that Wizards get higher level spells earlier, not that they're Prepaired casters.

Except at even levels, the prepared casting does actually give them an advantage when it comes to the highest spell level, because a 6th level a Sorcerer can't have both Fly and Haste, whereas a Wizard or Witch can.

Theaitetos wrote:

Are you sure you're using the latest version? I see conflicting entries for the Arcane bloodline rules:

Yes, I copy-pasted the text from the PDF (6th printing, i.e. the latest). The text was changed for the 5th printing, and the change was listed in the errata notes, I don't know why AoN missed it. Edit: Ninja'd

Sysryke wrote:

It didn't get a lot of traction, and that's okay, but I started a thread on this idea.

Well, you did title the thread with a purely mechanical question. Flavor doesn't and can't have any impact on power level.

Personally, of the classes in question, I prefer Witch, for three reason. First, flavorwise, I dislike magic only manifesting in spells. Second, I like how the hexes lessen the relevance of the exact spell preperation (similar to Arcanist). And third, I think Wizard is a boring, horribly designed class that shouldn't even exist - I prefer classes with more build-in flavor than just "an arcane caster", "a divine caster" or "a martial". I also totally understand when people prefer sponteneous casting, but I'm able to seperate my personal preference from the objective view.

[Sysryke]

Derklord wrote:

Sysryke wrote:

It didn't get a

...

I think you may be getting the posters confused. I'm not the OP of this thread. I was referencing a General Discussion (I think) thread I started back in December about the "feel" of how magical all the classes were. Nothing mechanical about it. I did use the word "ranking" I guess, but again, all of my parameters were stated and meant to be subjective. Nothing about relative power scales.

[Theaitetos]

Derklord wrote:

Except at even levels, the prepared casting does actually give them an advantage when it comes to the highest spell level, because a 6th level a Sorcerer can't have both Fly and Haste, whereas a Wizard or Witch can.

A Ley Line Guardian witch is a spontaneous caster, that can have Fly and Haste at even levels.

It's an even better example for Mr Charisma's point than the Magus vs Eldritch Scion comparison, because they are actual d6 full caster classes with basically no difference apart from prepared vs spontaneous.

[Derklord]

Theaitetos wrote:

A Ley Line Guardian witch is a spontaneous caster, that can have Fly and Haste at even levels.

So can a Psychic with the Self-Perfection Psychic Discipline. Doesn't change the fact that a Sorcerer can't, and is thus disadvantaged compared to a Wizard or Witch for doing that. Which is really all I was saying. Also, these are just moments in time that may happen to work for theexample, but don't doso in general. If you want, say, Confusion and Enervation as 4th level spells, neither the Agility/Time Ley Line Guardian Witch, or the Self-Perfection Psychic, can cast both of those at 8th level, nor can a Sorcerer, whereas a Wizard (or prepared Witch) can, exactly because of the nature of prepared casting.

Seriously, just because MrCharisma apparently uses Wizard and Sorcerer as stand-in terms when he's really talking about prepared and spontaneous casters, doesn't mean I do the same. In fact, I never made the discussion about spontaneous vs. prepared casting*, because I believe that's not where the divide lays. In my first post, I very deliberately put that seperation between the even-level casters and the odd-level casters.

*) For combat, that is. I believe that for non-combat challenge solving, prepared casting is, indeed, superior by nature.

Sysryke wrote:

I think you may be getting the posters confused.

And I can't read! Oops! Although I must say, that once again this happened because I was assuming that people talk about something actually relevant to the thread.

[MrCharisma]

Derklord wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

This isn't about "Wizard vs Sorcerer", it's about "Prepaired vs Spontaneous casters". Wizards get bonus spell-slots, but Witches don't. Go down to the 6/9 casters and the Prepaired casters don't get early access to spells either.

Are you seriously criticizing me right for not getting that in a thread exclusively about full casters, in a post where you name-drop Sorerer and Wizard, you're actually talking about something that has nothing to do with either the thread's topic or the classes you've named? Are you f$$!ing kidding me?

Not criticizing, just clarifying.

Sorry if it seemed like a criticism.

[UnArcaneElection]

Theaitetos wrote:

Firebug wrote:

And the Wizard has 2 Fireballs and 2 Hastes for the price of 2 slots also with the same Echoing Rod. So how is that less efficient?

So you admit the Rod is more useful than the Pearl? OK.

Firebug wrote:

In my example (fireball, haste x2, protection from elements) could be a Wizard at level 6 for spells memorized that day. A 6th level sorcerer can also cast 4 spells per day (assuming a 16 cha) but will have only 1 spell known or 0 if they were crossblooded (which tends to be what I usually see because orc/draconic for the damages)...

So we're no longer comparing the Rod to the Pearl? Your entire post is a huge list of other things, that have nothing to do with the Rod vs Pearl issue.

p.s.: You can use another metamagic rod when you cast your echoed spell, so all that Maximize-Rod + Pearl vs Runestone is off-topic as well.

Derklord wrote:

What? "Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook)." CRB pg. 73

Are you sure you're using the latest version? I see conflicting entries for the Arcane bloodline rules:

d20PFSRD wrote:

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. Once per day, your bonded item allows you to cast any one of your spells known (unlike a wizard’s bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook). This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

AoN wrote:

Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

?

They probably should have left it the un-errata'd way. Pathfinder 2nd Edition in fact sort of does this, except instead of making the spellbook access be by way of Bonded Item (2nd Edition doesn't have an Arcane Bloodline among those that have the Arcane spell list), it has it be by way of a feat (Arcane Evolution or Occult Evolution, which I think would be good to backport to 1st Edition).

Kurald Galain wrote:

{. . .} Note that almost all partial casters are spontaneous {. . .}

Alchemist, Investigator, Paladin, Ranger, and Warpriest(*) all say hello to Magus.

(*)And a couple of weird archetypes of other things.

4/9 casters (not including archetypes): Prepared = Paladin and Ranger (2 total); Spontaneous = Bloodrager and Medium (2 total). (Unfortunately no Hybrid 4/9 casters.)

6/9 casters (not including archetypes): Prepared = Alchemist, Investigator, Magus, and Warpriest (4 total); Spontaneous = Bard, Hunter, Inquisitor, Mesmerist, Occultist, Skald, Summoner, Spiritualist (8 total). (Unfortunately no Hybrid 6/9 casters.)

So spontaneous partial casters are more diverse than prepared partial casters, but it isn't quite 2 to 1 (so I wouldn't say almost all).

And since I went to the trouble, let's hear it for full casters as well:

9/9 casters (not including archetypes): Prepared = Cleric, Druid, Shaman, Witch, Wizard (total 5); Spontaneous = Oracle, Psychic, Sorcerer (total 3); Hybrid = Arcanist (total 1).

[avr]

Those other weird archetypes include cabalist and warlock vigilante, eldritch scoundrel rogue, CAA fighter (spits) and living grimoire inquisitor for prepared casters.

Yes there's more partial spontaneous casters, but there's quite a wide variety of partial prepared casters. Full casters though are especially good as prepared because they can afford to leave spell slots open to prepare spells into whereas 4/9 and 6/9 spellcasters may just not have enough total spell slots to leave some open.

[Kurald Galain]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

6/9 casters (not including archetypes): Prepared = Alchemist, Investigator, Magus, and Warpriest (4 total); Spontaneous = Bard, Hunter, Inquisitor, Mesmerist, Occultist, Skald, Summoner, Spiritualist (8 total). (Unfortunately no Hybrid 6/9 casters.)

Right, I meant the 6/9 casters; the 4/9 ones need a more diminutive word. Somehow I keep thinking that the alchemist is 9/9 and investigator is its 6/9 equivalent, but that's really not the case.

My point is that for the full casters, all of the spontaneous ones get their spell levels later than the prepared ones; whereas for partial casters, this is not the case. Arguably then, the spontaneous partial casters are more powerful than the prepared partial casters; in practice this comparison is tricky since they all have a ton of class features.