Can Exotic Heritage allow Eldritch Heritage Sylvan to grab you an animal companion?
Animal Companion (Ex): At 1st level, you gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st).
This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.
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Nope: https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9sxm
Archetypes and Gaining Powers: If an archetype like wildblooded sorcerer grants new class features like bloodline powers, domain powers, or the like, if I don’t have that archetype, can I use feats like Eldritch Heritage or Believer’s Boon and choose the powers granted by the archetype.
No. These powers only exist for the archetypes that grant them. This is particularly important because in some cases, the archetype might trade out non-parallel features to gain those powers. For example, a fey sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype trades out both her bloodline arcana and her 1st-level power to gain a new 1st-level power, but a non-sorcerer using a feat to gain a 1st-level power never had the bloodline arcana to begin with.
This just came up a couple of days ago in https://paizo.com/threads/rzs439st?So-after-contemplating-tirelessly-over-t he#4
Yes, you can.
If you're interested, I know some options around the Sylvan bloodline's animal companion.
1) For 20k gold [10k crafting], you can take the ordinary Skill Focus (any) over Exotic Heritage. The bloodline doesn't matter, so take one that matches with your desired Skill Focus. Once you have Eldritch Heritage, just drink an Ampoule of False Blood (Sylvan), so your bloodline changes to Sylvan and you'll get the animal companion.
2) If you want to dump Charisma & you are (part) Human, you can trade the Human's Skilled trait for the alternate racial trait Draconic Heritage. This gives you Low-Light Vision, Darkvision 10', and allows you to ignore the Charisma prerequisites for the entire Eldritch Heritage feat line. You 're locked in to Skill Focus (Perception) though, since you will have to choose the Draconic bloodline at first -- but you can still change your bloodline later as outlined above. Not worth it if you just want the animal companion though.
p.s.:
There's also a guide by Lord Kailas: http://bit.ly/LKsACGuide
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42xjc?Multiple-Animal-Companions-and-You
you use 3 feats to try and get the companion. (the two above and skill focus for the eldritch heritage).
with level -2 to sorcerer level (eldritch heritage) and then -3 to druid level (the sylvan bloodline power) so -5 to companion level. you can then take boon companion to get it up by 4 to your hd -1, for a total of 4 feats.
now i'm not going to get into if it works or not like the posts above, i just want to point out:
that if your not too picky with the kind of companion you get (i think this uses the same as the ranger list) then going with : nature soul > animal ally only take 2 feats and get you a companion at level -3 (which then boon companion will set to your max hd, can't go above). just thought you might want to take a look at it.
I think he wants to have multiple animal companions, not just one.
'This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.'
Does exotic heritage + eldritch heritage give you a bloodline arcana? It does not. So no, you do not get the sylvan animal companion.
'This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch.'
Does exotic heritage + eldritch heritage give you a bloodline arcana? It does not. So no, you do not get the sylvan animal companion.
When something counts as something, then it's an add-on, not a prerequisite.
Example, Martial Focus
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +5.
Benefit: Choose one fighter weapon group. While wielding a weapon from this group with which you are proficient, you gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls.
Special: The Martial Focus feat counts as the weapon training class feature with the chosen fighter weapon group for the purpose of weapon mastery feat prerequisites and what weapons you can use with weapon mastery feats.
"Do you have the weapon training class feature with the chosen fighter weapon group? No, then you don't get Martial Focus." <-- would be a ludicrous statement, don't you think?
But that's not exactly the argument being made. It's difficult to come up with a clear parallel because the Animal Companion from the Sylvan bloodline replaces two different things. I (and apparently avr) interpret "This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch" to mean that the Sylvan bloodline technically doesn't give a level 1 power, but instead a significantly more powerful arcana and Eldritch Heritage doesn't grant arcana even with Exotic Heritage. That's not the only valid interpretation of those rules, though, which leads us to the FAQ, and while I agree that the FAQ seems to be referring to a time before Exotic Heritage existed, the example given is very clear about needing an arcana to give up in order to get the Animal Companion from the Sylvan bloodline.
the example given is very clear about needing an arcana to give up in order to get the Animal Companion from the Sylvan bloodline.
No, when a feature requires you to give up several things, it says so directly with the words "this replaces that" or "this alters that". But "count" is only ever used as an additive. Every single archetype in all books use this exact verbiage, and dozens of feats do as well.
Aerial Assaulter, the very first (alphabetically) archetype of the Fighter class:
Source Blood of the Ancients pg. 25
As staunch believers in the value of higher ground, the Shory developed special fighting styles that capitalize on fighting from above. While many dismiss such techniques as a niche tactic, aerial assaulters leap to great heights and create higher ground where there is none.Class Skills: An aerial assaulter gains Acrobatics and Fly as class skills. Knowledge (dungeoneering), Ride, and Swim are not class skills for an aerial assaulter.
This alters the fighter’s skills.
Aerial Expertise (Ex): At 2nd level, an aerial assaulter gains a +2 bonus on Fly checks. Additionally, whenever he is affected by a spell or ability that grants him a fly speed, he treats that spell or ability as though its caster level were 2 higher for the purposes of determining its effects. At 6th level and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus on Fly checks increases by an additional 2, to a maximum of +10 at 18th level.
This replaces bravery.
Take the High Ground (Ex): At 2nd level, an aerial assaulter can leap above his foes to gain an advantage in combat. As a move action, he can attempt an Acrobatics check with the DC equal to the CMD of an adjacent enemy. If he succeeds, the aerial assaulter is treated as if he had higher ground against that enemy until the beginning of his next turn. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, an aerial assaulter increases his bonus from higher ground by 1, to a total of a +6 bonus at 20th level. At 12th level, an aerial assaulter can use this ability as a swift action.
This replaces the bonus feats gained at 2nd and 12th level.
Aerial Dodge (Ex): At 19th level, an aerial assaulter can perform an aerial dodge that allows him to evade attacks while flying. As an immediate action, when an opponent attempts an attack against the aerial assaulter, he can attempt a Fly check with a DC equal to the result of the attacker’s attack roll. If he succeeds, he can take a 5-foot step and gain a dodge bonus to his AC equal to his Dexterity modifier. This movement doesn’t negate the attack if the aerial assaulter remains in range of the attacking enemy’s reach at the end of the 5-foot step. If the Fly check fails, the aerial assaulter does not move, does not gain an AC bonus, and provokes an attack of opportunity from each creature that threatens him, including the initial attacker. The aerial assaulter must be flying to use this ability.
This replaces armor mastery.
High Ground Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, whenever an aerial assaulter threatens a critical hit with an attack made from higher ground, he automatically confirms the critical hit, and the weapon’s damage multiplier is increased by 1. In addition, all bull rush, dirty trick, drag, grapple, reposition, and trip combat maneuver checks against the aerial assaulter fail when attempted by opponents on lower ground than he is.
This replaces weapon mastery.
Airborne Ambusher, the second Fighter archetype:
Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 201
Driven by suspicion and hatred, strix doggedly guard their territories, making deadly use of their flight. Using swift strikes from above, strix plummet onto their foes with lethal force.Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An airborne ambusher is not proficient with heavy armor or tower shields.
Class Skills: An airborne ambusher adds Fly to his list of class skills and removes Climb from his list of class skills.
Combat Flyer (Ex): At 2nd level, an airborne ambusher may use his fighter bonus feats to select Flyby Attack and Hover. This replaces bravery.
Aerobatics (Ex): At 5th level, an airborne ambusher may make a Fly check instead of an Acrobatics check to move through a threatened area or an enemy’s space. This replaces weapon training 1.
Flying Dodger (Ex): At 9th level, when an airborne ambusher flies at least half its fly speed on its turn, it gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +4 at 17th level. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Plummeting Charge (Ex): At 13th level, if an airborne ambusher flies at least half its fly speed as part of a charge, it gains a +2 racial bonus on the attack roll (in addition to the normal charge bonus) and a +4 bonus on its critical confirmation roll. These bonuses improve to +4 and +6 at 17th level. This replaces weapon training 3 and 4.
Aldori Defender, the third Fighter archetype
Source Adventurer's Guide pg. 22, Inner Sea Primer pg. 24
The Aldori swordlords of Brevoy are among the deadliest and most feared fighters of the Inner Sea. They have spent long years mastering the Aldori dueling sword, pitting themselves against other dueling swords and all manner of weaponry besides. Their speed and reflexes weave a net of impenetrable steel around them, from which they strike and harry their unfortunate opponents. The most common form of Aldori dueling (and arguably the easiest of the techniques to master) focuses on avoiding damage and disarming foes; these swordlords prefer to wear light or no armor, trusting their skill for protection. This archetype focuses on such techniques—characters seeking a more offensive method of focusing training on the Aldori dueling sword should consider the Aldori swordlord prestige class on page 20. However, this archetype also synergizes well with the powers and skills the prestige class offers.The following benefits apply only when an Aldori defender is wielding an Aldori dueling sword (see page 24) and carrying nothing in his other hand. An Aldori defender fights with his sword wielded with both hands only in moments of desperation.
Suggested Feats: Although this archetype replaces some of the bonus feats that a fighter would normally have access to, Aldori defenders still have several opportunities to gain feats. The following feats are the most thematically appropriate for an Aldori defender, but the archetype does not require any of them: Aldori Dueling Mastery (see page 24), Combat Expertise, Dazzling Display, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Lunge, Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Aldori dueling sword), Weapon Specialization (Aldori dueling sword).
Defensive Parry (Ex): At 3rd level, when an Aldori defender makes a full attack with an Aldori dueling sword, he gains a +1 shield bonus to his AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases to +2 at 7th level, +3 at 11th level, and +4 at 15th level.
This ability replaces armor training.
Disarming Strike (Ex): At 6th level, when an Aldori defender successfully disarms an opponent using an Aldori dueling sword, he also deals normal damage to the target, but without the normal Strength bonus to damage.
This ability replaces the bonus feat the fighter would normally gain at 6th level.
Steel Net (Ex): At 8th level, an Aldori defender can create a blazing wall of steel to defend himself. When fighting defensively as a full-round action with an Aldori dueling sword, the Aldori defender’s penalties on all attacks in a round are reduced by 2, and his dodge bonus to AC increases by 2 for the same round.
This ability replaces the bonus feat the fighter would normally gain at 8th level.
Counterattack (Ex): At 10th level, once per round, an Aldori defender can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who hits him with a melee attack (regardless of how many attacks of opportunity the Aldori defender can otherwise make), so long as the attacking creature is within the his reach.
This ability replaces the bonus feat the fighter would normally gain at 10th level.
...
A few feats, starting with Armor Focus
Source Armor Master's Handbook pg. 16
Your familiarity with a specific type of armor increases the amount of protection you receive from it.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, proficiency with selected armor.
Benefit: Select one type of armor, such as chain shirt or splint mail. The AC bonus granted by the selected armor increases by 1.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of armor. The Armor Focus feat counts as the armor training class feature for the purpose of armor mastery feat prerequisites and determines what types of armor you can use with armor mastery feats.
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 142
You can heal others with a touch of your hand.Prerequisites: Wis 13, Believer’s Boon, must be lawful good, alignment must be within one step of your deity’s.
Benefit: Once per day, you can use the paladin’s lay on hands ability. Your effective paladin level is equal to 1/2 your character level (minimum 1). If you already have (or later gain) the lay on hands ability, you instead gain one extra use of lay on hands each day.
Special: This feat counts as having the lay on hands ability for the purpose of qualifying for feats such as Extra Lay on Hands.
Source Monster Hunter's Handbook pg. 22
You have deadly experience with a certain type of creature, granting you an edge in fighting its kind.Prerequisites: No levels in a class that grants the favored enemy class feature.
Benefit: Choose a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 64) except for humanoid or monstrous humanoid. You gain a +2 bonus on Perception checks, Survival checks, and weapon damage rolls against creatures of the selected type. You can attempt Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify such creatures.
Special: This feat counts as the favored enemy class feature for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites. If another ability references your favored enemy bonus for the creature type selected, you treat your favored enemy bonus as +2. If you later gain the favored enemy class feature, you can replace this feat with a different feat for which you qualify and whose prerequisites include the favored enemy class feature.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different creature type.
Show me one single archetype or feat where "counts as" is used in the sense of "replaces" or "alters". Just one. Because I can show you hundreds more quotes like those above -- I didn't even finish the letter "A" on the Fighter archetypes.
That was a huge wall of text for you to not actually address what I said. I conceded that your interpretation was a valid interpretation of the words "This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch." But nothing you said addresses the example given in the FAQ...
Archetypes and Gaining Powers: If an archetype like wildblooded sorcerer grants new class features like bloodline powers, domain powers, or the like, if I don’t have that archetype, can I use feats like Eldritch Heritage or Believer’s Boon and choose the powers granted by the archetype.
No. These powers only exist for the archetypes that grant them. This is particularly important because in some cases, the archetype might trade out non-parallel features to gain those powers.
Despite Exotic Heritage saying "you can choose a mutated version of your chosen bloodline as though you were a sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype," it still doesn't give you a bloodline arcana to trade.
It's not an explanation of why it doesn't work for Eldritch Heritage.
Umm it quite clearly calls out feat
Archetypes and Gaining Powers: If an archetype like wildblooded sorcerer grants new class features like bloodline powers, domain powers, or the like, if I don’t have that archetype, can I use feats like Eldritch Heritage or Believer’s Boon and choose the powers granted by the archetype.
No. These powers only exist for the archetypes that grant them. This is particularly important because in some cases, the archetype might trade out non-parallel features to gain those powers. For example, a fey sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype trades out both her bloodline arcana and her 1st-level power to gain a new 1st-level power, but a non-sorcerer using a feat to gain a 1st-level power never had the bloodline arcana to begin with.
It's not an explanation of why it doesn't work for Eldritch Heritage.
... really?
Archetypes and Gaining Powers: If an archetype like wildblooded sorcerer grants new class features like bloodline powers, domain powers, or the like, if I don’t have that archetype, can I use feats like Eldritch Heritage or Believer’s Boon and choose the powers granted by the archetype.
No. These powers only exist for the archetypes that grant them. This is particularly important because in some cases, the archetype might trade out non-parallel features to gain those powers. For example, a fey sorcerer with the wildblooded archetype trades out both her bloodline arcana and her 1st-level power to gain a new 1st-level power, but a non-sorcerer using a feat to gain a 1st-level power never had the bloodline arcana to begin with.
The second sentence tells you why the feat doesn't grant the power, the example shows why it's important that that is the case. To sum it up:
First making words BIG really doesn't help not escalate things
Secondly then, we agree Exotic Heritage and Eldritch Heritage does not let you get an animal companion so why on earth are you fighting this
Oh... you're just being pointlessly argumentative. I still disagree with you. Our interpretation is perfectly valid and nothing you've said yet indicates that it isn't. All you've done is argue a different interpretation as though it's the only valid one. Actually, I still think your interpretation is wrong, but I thought you were coming to a different conclusion. Since we agree that you can't get an Animal Companion from Sylvan wildblood with Exotic Heritage plus Eldritch Heritage, I really don't care if you think I got there the wrong way.
Secondly then, we agree Exotic Heritage and Eldritch Heritage does not let you get an animal companion so why on earth are you fighting this
No, we do not. The FAQ isn't relevant as willuwontu correctly points out. However, he makes the same mistake as dr. kekyll.
They both literally want you to believe that these two sentences are absolutely the same thing:
This bloodline power replaces laughing touch and also counts as your bloodline arcana.
This bloodline power replaces laughing touch and also replaces your bloodline arcana.
They both believe that the Sylvan's 1st-level bloodline power replaces the Sylvan's bloodline arcana. It doesn't. You don't gain the bloodline arcana (willuwontu's false reading), and you don't replace the bloodline arcana (dr. kekyll's false reading), it just counts as the bloodline arcana.
I have yet to see a single archetype or feat or other rule element, where you see "count = gain" or "count = replace". I invite you to show us any, literally just one. I've already shown 3 archetypes and 3 feats to the contrary and I didn't even move beyond C in the alphabet.
Here, the 3 feats again:
Armor Focus
Source Armor Master's Handbook pg. 16
Your familiarity with a specific type of armor increases the amount of protection you receive from it.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +1, proficiency with selected armor.Benefit: Select one type of armor, such as chain shirt or splint mail. The AC bonus granted by the selected armor increases by 1.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of armor. The Armor Focus feat counts as the armor training class feature for the purpose of armor mastery feat prerequisites and determines what types of armor you can use with armor mastery feats.
Believer's Hands
Source Advanced Class Guide pg. 142
You can heal others with a touch of your hand.
Prerequisites: Wis 13, Believer’s Boon, must be lawful good, alignment must be within one step of your deity’s.Benefit: Once per day, you can use the paladin’s lay on hands ability. Your effective paladin level is equal to 1/2 your character level (minimum 1). If you already have (or later gain) the lay on hands ability, you instead gain one extra use of lay on hands each day.
Special: This feat counts as having the lay on hands ability for the purpose of qualifying for feats such as Extra Lay on Hands.
Creature Focus
Source Monster Hunter's Handbook pg. 22
You have deadly experience with a certain type of creature, granting you an edge in fighting its kind.
Prerequisites: No levels in a class that grants the favored enemy class feature.Benefit: Choose a creature type from the ranger favored enemies table (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 64) except for humanoid or monstrous humanoid. You gain a +2 bonus on Perception checks, Survival checks, and weapon damage rolls against creatures of the selected type. You can attempt Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify such creatures.
Special: This feat counts as the favored enemy class feature for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites. If another ability references your favored enemy bonus for the creature type selected, you treat your favored enemy bonus as +2. If you later gain the favored enemy class feature, you can replace this feat with a different feat for which you qualify and whose prerequisites include the favored enemy class feature.
You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different creature type.
If a character has the Armor Focus, Believer's Hands, and Creature Focus feats, did he gain the armor training class feature, the lay on hands class feature, or the favored enemy class feature? Did he replace these class features?
Wow the mental gymnastics...
For some strange reason, you and willuwontu seem to think that your interpretation is the only valid interpretation of texts. You're dismissing a perfectly valid interpretation of a text because it's not the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.
The fact is that the Animal Companion does replace the bloodline arcana. You're pointing to a bunch of other uses of the words "counts as" as though that actually matters. All of those examples, though, say "for the purposes of..." after them. They explain in what way this counts as whatever. "Counts as" isn't a strict game term that always means the same thing. It's being used as a normal phrase. And in the context of the Sylvan bloodline, it can mean "This is your arcana; you don't have a 1st level power," or it could mean "This is your arcana and your 1st level power."
The rules aren't always as clear as some people want them to be. This rule can legitimately be interpreted multiple ways. That you're too closed minded to see that isn't really my problem.
Anyway, it is ambiguous which is why we turn to the FAQ. It's absolutely relevant and I don't really care how anyone gets from there to you can't do this, but the intent was that you don't do this. In your game, do what you want.
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Here's input from the designer behind the feat. I don't think we ever got that FAQ though.
I'm of the opinion that it doesn't, but I suppose I should have been more clear in the text. (At least I caught Beast Totem in the Totemic Initiate line.)
In any case, I brought this to Mr. Seifter's attention the last time someone inquired... so even if it's valid, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an FAQ in the upcoming weeks to take care of it once and for all. ^_^
@Theaitetos You seem to be very combative in every thread you are part of recently. Seeing your older posts that didn't used to be the case. Whatever is going on in your life I hope you are okay.
You seem to be very combative in every thread you are part of recently. Seeing your older posts that didn't used to be the case. Whatever is going on in your life I hope you are okay.
Thank you for your concern, but I am fine.
And no, I'm not "combative in every thread", only in 3 places currently, where a subset of people willfully ignore rule elements and basic English.
In fact, I'm having a blast over on another Pathfinder forum right now, where people are extremely well versed in the rules and enjoy showing their rules exploits to each other. And boy, all those exploits I found in the past 2 weeks in the Retraining rules... wow, they are amazing! :D
But around here, you have to struggle to explain the difference between the words "count", "gain", and "replace" over and over again and people still don't get it. So I'm not even writing about the best rule stuff in this forum. Or what kind of reaction would I get, in your opinion, if I told people how to legally start a character with a dozen bonus feats? Over there it gets me laughs, in here I'd expect to have feces thrown at me.
And it's the same thing when you point out how someone's idea doesn't work because it violates the rules: In the other forum, they just brush it off, thank you for pointing out some rare rule they missed or scold themselves for overlooking a rule they should have known. But in here they get angry, scream and mock you.
Over time people will just give up and not say anything anymore here, and that will be the case with me soon too. So enjoy my legalistic presence as long as it will be here -- nothing lasts forever. :)
Wow... I do not have the energy nor the will to combat your ego. At the very least, thank you for making it clear that I should never engage you.
