Isn't there a feat that lets you treat a weapon as though it belonged to a different group of weapons? Or, even better, something you can add to the weapon itself for the cost of a few gp? Just slap that on and make the rapier part of the Monk weapon group. Somehow.
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I think you are looking for Crusader’s Flurry. It requires Channel energy class feature and a deity with rapier as favored weapon + weapon focus rapier.
Another option is Versatile Design. It cost you 500gp to modify your weapon and then you can flurry with any melee weapon even a Fauchard...
Remember to check with your GM - I would never allow it.
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@Quixote
@*Khan*
The Versatile Design modification only adds a weapon to another Fighter Weapon Group, in return for increasing the proficiency rating one step. (simple to martial, martial to exotic, exotic to unusable without feats)
What the Monk and UnMonk uses to flurry is a weapon with the Monk Special Weapon Feature, such as the Waveblade which actually isn't even part of the Monk weapon group.
A Monk could not flurry with a Versatile Design Rapier, but a Brawler could because they only check for the Close Weapon Group, and not a specific Special Weapon Feature.
Edit:
Scott already brought up Ascetic Style so no need for me to do that.
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I think you are looking for Crusader’s Flurry. It requires Channel energy class feature and a deity with rapier as favored weapon + weapon focus rapier.Sadly, most deities with Favored weapon Rapier are Chaotic. You can still do it if LE or LN, but then your deity is Evil.
One way around this (outside of PFS) is to take levels in Paladin for your Channel Energy. Paladins don't need to be within 1 step of their deity's alignment like Clerics do, so you could be a Paladin of Cayden Caylien. The disadvantage is that you'd need 4 levels of Paladin to get the Channel Energy class feature.
Another way to do it is to take a level of Oracle. You don't need to be a class that gets spells from their deity so you could simply be a religious Monk with an Oracle dip and take Weapon Proficiency and Focus as feats to get Crusader's Flurry (or take a dip into Inspired Blade or something).
If your GM requires a class that relies on a deity for this (which isn't RAW, but I can see happening) you could take a level of Inquisitor as well as the Oracle dip. Bear in mind taking 2 dips into non-full-BAB classes is going to hurt your offensive capabilities.
Just use the wave blade for an 18-20 crit range flurry-compatible weapon. It's exotic, but it's got the monk special weapon property so uMonks are automatically proficient with it.
It's a light weapon, so you can finesse it, has the same damage die as the rapier, and does piercing or slashing in addition to requiring 0 hoops to jump through.
Yeah, Crusader's Flurry is the only thing I can think of that would allow you to flurry with a rapier. If you're doing it for the theme, then that's what you have to do. Otherwise, as Cabbage said, use a waveblade. I took Crusader's Flurry myself with a level of cleric for my own monk, but that fit into her backstory anyway and her faith lets her use a scimitar that I could two-hand for a bit more damage.
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I think you are looking for Crusader’s Flurry. It requires Channel energy class feature and a deity with rapier as favored weapon + weapon focus rapier.Sadly, most deities with Favored weapon Rapier are Chaotic. You can still do it if LE or LN, but then your deity is Evil.One way around this (outside of PFS) is to take levels in Paladin for your Channel Energy. Paladins don't need to be within 1 step of their deity's alignment like Clerics do, so you could be a Paladin of Cayden Caylien. The disadvantage is that you'd need 4 levels of Paladin to get the Channel Energy class feature.
Another way to do it is to take a level of Oracle. You don't need to be a class that gets spells from their deity so you could simply be a religious Monk with an Oracle dip and take Weapon Proficiency and Focus as feats to get Crusader's Flurry (or take a dip into Inspired Blade or something).
If your GM requires a class that relies on a deity for this (which isn't RAW, but I can see happening) you could take a level of Inquisitor as well as the Oracle dip. Bear in mind taking 2 dips into non-full-BAB classes is going to hurt your offensive capabilities.
Crusader’s Flurry requires Weapon focus in your deity's favored weapon. So yes, the RAW requires at least having a deity.
Crusader’s Flurry requires Weapon focus in your deity's favored weapon. So yes, the RAW requires at least having a deity.
Right, but there's nothing saying Bards, Fighters, Monks and Wizards can't worship Deities. Heck there's even a space for it on your character sheet.
Quite frankly, the Channel Energy prereq of Crusader's Flurry is an outdated relic from a time when the writers thought that bonus attacks were the bestest thing ever. It should just be removed form the game. Hell, that'd still be primarily a flavor option!
I would not necessarily allow all the shenanigans that you can get up to with Versatile Design (from what I'be heard - I have not looked into it closely).
Honestly, the effect of Versatile Design is vastly overrated as long as you use common sense*. It only affects things that explicitly use weapon groups, which really isn't much, and in most cases, the increased investment needed makes it unworthwhile.
*) No, a group with 32 melee and 2 ranged weapons is not ranged weapon group!
Depending on the level range this has to be available, Sohei can do Flurry with anything they have Weapon Training in.
VMC Cleric would give you Channel at level 7.
Versatile Design is vastly overrated as long as you use common sense*.
One person's "common sense" is another person's "of course versatile design lets a brawler flurry with polearms- what else could it possibly be for?"
I think Sohei is your best bet... no multiclassing or VMC... and you get freaking Weapon Training!
Sohei 7 can Flurry with a Rapier...
BAB +5
Flurry +5,+5,+0 (w/o Weapon Training)
Base saves +5/+5/+5
Weapon Training +1/+1 (w/o Gloves)
Advanced Weapon Training could add effects to the Ki Weapon enchanment bonus... saving you from spending Weapon Training points for enchantment bonuses... if that makes sense. You could also pick up scaling weapon damage, since Sohei gives up theirs.
At level 12, you could Flurry with bows, too. Or Bardiches...
One person's "common sense" is another person's "of course versatile design lets a brawler flurry with polearms- what else could it possibly be for?"
That's not lack of common sense, that's lack of reading comprehension. The common sense is not for stuff dictated by the rules, but for the stuff that's not 100% clear. That a Monk's ability top flurry with a weapon is tied to the special weapon property is dictated by the rules, not human input required. That putting a bow into the firearm group doesn't apply firearm rules is dictated by the rules, not human input required.
I think Sohei is your best bet... no multiclassing or VMC... and you get freaking Weapon Training!
Sohei 7 can Flurry with a Rapier...
BAB +5
Flurry +5,+5,+0 (w/o Weapon Training)
Base saves +5/+5/+5
Weapon Training +1/+1 (w/o Gloves)Advanced Weapon Training could add effects to the Ki Weapon enchanment bonus... saving you from spending Weapon Training points for enchantment bonuses... if that makes sense. You could also pick up scaling weapon damage, since Sohei gives up theirs.
At level 12, you could Flurry with bows, too. Or Bardiches...
At 6th level, a sohei gains weapon training in one of the following weapon groups, as the fighter class feature: bows, crossbows, monk weapons, polearms, spears, or thrown weapons.
Fun but there's a total lack of rapiers there. OK, versatile design could do it but I think that needs mentioning when promoting the idea.
One person's "common sense" is another person's "of course versatile design lets a brawler flurry with polearms- what else could it possibly be for?"That's not lack of common sense, that's lack of reading comprehension. The common sense is not for stuff dictated by the rules, but for the stuff that's not 100% clear. That a Monk's ability top flurry with a weapon is tied to the special weapon property is dictated by the rules, not human input required. That putting a bow into the firearm group doesn't apply firearm rules is dictated by the rules, not human input required.
The example is deliberate though, because the Brawler's flurry is tied to "the close weapon group" unlike the monk's, so a Brawler can flurry with anything you've modded to be in the close group.
since you mentioned 3rd party, there is Weapon Kata from Trailblazer that allows you to add any simple or martial weapon to your list of monk weapons.
The example is deliberate though, because the Brawler's flurry is tied to "the close weapon group" unlike the monk's, so a Brawler can flurry with anything you've modded to be in the close group.
Apologies, I condensed two different parts of my reply, and ended up not actually replying to what you've said.
Yes, with Versatile Design (Close), a Brawler can flurry a polearm, and is even proficient with a martial one. So what? It's non-light, so you take a -4 penalty, instead of the usual -2, on attack rolls. It doesn't work with Pummeling Style or Stick-Fighting Style. It fixes none of the Brawler's issues.
Yeah, i'll stand by the effect is overrated.
A brawler can make all of their TWF attacks with one weapon (the literal text of the ability), while their "offhand" weapon is "unarmed strike" making the penalty -2 even if you're flurrying with a greataxe.
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Player: "Hi GM my new Fauchard is modified with Versatile design (close) so now I can flurry with it with my brawler. By the way it is a HUGE fauchard but I have taken a level in titan fighter so I can wield it."
GM: "......but it have reach... it is huge... and you use it as a close weapon....??!"
Player: "... oh... YES! So I can also use it while grappled or swallowed whole??!!!"
GM: "..... face palm....."
A brawler can make all of their TWF attacks with one weapon (the literal text of the ability), while their "offhand" weapon is "unarmed strike" making the penalty -2 even if you're flurrying with a greataxe.
No. The bonus attacks (from TWF itself, as well as the Improved TWF and Greater TWF feats) are made with your off-hand weapon. If you designate unarmed strike as your off-hand weapons, all the bonus attacks must be made with the US. The only thing Brawler's Flurry changes is that the main-hand weapon and the off-hand weapon can be one and the same - it removes the word "second" from the first sentence of the TWF rules: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." Nothing more.
That's why it's not problematic: There is a cost involved, and even though a -2 on attack rolls during a flurry may not sound like a big price for gaining reach, on a class with no attack roll bonus that's quite notworthy.
Player: "... oh... YES! So I can also use it while grappled or swallowed whole??!!!"
I'm a little puzzled here. Did you want to showcase that the main issue is people not understanding how the weapon modification works? Or was that scenario based on your understanding of the rules and meant as a warning not to allow the modification?
Here' how it is: If the word "group" doesn't appear, weapon groups aren't relevant. It's really that simple. The grappled description doesn't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant. The Swallow Whole description doesn't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant. The firearm rules don't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant. The Flurry of Blows description doesn't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant.
Seriously, 99% of the issues with Versatile Design comes form people not accepting the above written simple fact because it makes the loophole that they think they'fe found not work. But that's not a reason to disallow it. As long as you only let it do what it actually does, Versatile Design is not problematic.
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A brawler can make all of their TWF attacks with one weapon (the literal text of the ability), while their "offhand" weapon is "unarmed strike" making the penalty -2 even if you're flurrying with a greataxe.No. The bonus attacks (from TWF itself, as well as the Improved TWF and Greater TWF feats) are made with your off-hand weapon. If you designate unarmed strike as your off-hand weapons, all the bonus attacks must be made with the US. The only thing Brawler's Flurry changes is that the main-hand weapon and the off-hand weapon can be one and the same - it removes the word "second" from the first sentence of the TWF rules: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon." Nothing more.
That's why it's not problematic: There is a cost involved, and even though a -2 on attack rolls during a flurry may not sound like a big price for gaining reach, on a class with no attack roll bonus that's quite notworthy.
Player: "... oh... YES! So I can also use it while grappled or swallowed whole??!!!"I'm a little puzzled here. Did you want to showcase that the main issue is people not understanding how the weapon modification works? Or was that scenario based on your understanding of the rules and meant as a warning not to allow the modification?
Here' how it is: If the word "group" doesn't appear, weapon groups aren't relevant. It's really that simple. The grappled description doesn't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant. The Swallow Whole description doesn't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant. The firearm rules don't contain the word "group", and therefore, weapon groups aren't relevant. The Flurry of Blows description doesn't contain the word "group", and therefore,...
Sorry for the misleading
My point is that versatile design is a non-magic modification with no penalties that changes the use of the weapon drastically.The first exampel is Legal but the second isn't. But both are absurd.
EDIT2: Having read the linked thread, it seems to be talking about [/i]Brawler's Flurry specifically and someone even makes reference to a Monk's flurry always being -2, but I cannot see any reason why the same logic would not apply to both.
Without reading through everything (because it's late here) my guess would be that the Brawler's and Monk's Flurries are ruled differently because the Brawler specifically references the Two-Weapon-Fighting rules while the Monk has it's own penalties spelled out in the text for the class.
Sorry that was such a long sentence.
Anyway I'm not sure if that's correct or not, but that's probably where the argument is coming from.
Player: "Hi GM my new Fauchard is modified with Versatile design (close) so now I can flurry with it with my brawler. By the way it is a HUGE fauchard but I have taken a level in titan fighter so I can wield it."
GM: "......but it have reach... it is huge... and you use it as a close weapon....??!"
A Brawler can already Flurry with the Double-Chained Kama, which would also be a huge reach weapon in your example. The actual size of the weapon doesn't prevent you from flurrying with it, just as monks have always been able to use two-handed weapons.
The real issue is that Brawlers have very bad weapon choices for Strength builds, which makes the Versatile Design trick that more noticeable. Since you start out proficient with the Waveblade (light, 18-20/x2, d6) and add 1x Strength to damage there's very few Monk Special Feature weapons worth the EWP feat.
Temple Sword? +1 average damage but worse crit (19-20/x2).
Seven-Branched Sword? +2 average damage but worse crit (x3).
Double-Chained Kama? Reach which is very nice but no increase in damage and you lost the entire crit profile (x2).
If you believe that Brawlers suffer TWF penalties beyond -2 (I don't, for the simple reason that Monks don't) then anything but a light weapon is an uphill battle. And since you're already proficient with the best light weapon possible, there's no point to Versatile Design shenanigans.
Having read the linked thread, it seems to be talking about Brawler's Flurry specifically and someone even makes reference to a Monk's flurry always being -2, but I cannot see any reason why the same logic would not apply to both.
Yes, it's about Brawler's Flurry, which is what I was talking about in my last post. Where cFlurry of Blows says you make bonus attacks, get a -2 penalty, and it all works "as if" using the TWF feats, Brawler's Flurry doesn't talk about bonus attacks or a penalty, instead fully referring to the TWF rules and granting/letitng you use the actual feats. Why cFlurry of Blows references TWF in the first place is a mystery to me, but that reference is completely superfluous, it doesn't have any mechanical effect. Brawler's Flurry full out uses the TWF rules, apart from the "second weapon" part and by proxy that the main hand and off hand need to be different, and is thus subject to what those rules say regarding off-hand attacks, and what the penalties are.
I read the text of the Flurry of Blows ability (which also makes reference to TWF etc and also does not explicitly list any penalties)
You're looking at an outdated version of the CRB (AoN apparently missed the erratum). The sixth printing added "taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls". The d20pfsrd.com version contains the latest text. And yeah, the class table always gave the penalties.
My point is that versatile design is a non-magic modification with no penalties that changes the use of the weapon drastically.
What drastic change? Brawlers could always flurry with reach weapon, because they can use one of the monk reach weapons for that. Versatile Design allows using a better weapon (and saves the EWP feat), but that doesn't sound drastic to me.
But both are absurd.
So it's a flavor thing? It should be banned because it doesn't match your imagination of the Brawler?