What class to play if I dislike Pathfinder rules?


Advice

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I'm not exactly new to Pathfinder. I've been playing for at least 3 years. I really dislike the system. But I love the adventure paths and the other players (real life friends) all enjoy the system. I'm there for the plot and having fun with friends.
My previous Adventure Path (Iron Gods) i had a gunslinger-mysterious stranger/swashbuckler-picaroon/skald. And she made it through the entire path. I was often misreading rules, not understanding things. It seemed i was 2-3 levels late in realizing i could do something.

But I don't want to bash a system many people Love. It just doesn't fit me well. I just need help/advice.

We began Strange Aeons and the GM assigned us starting characters. I was a shifter. I know the majority think it's a bad class, but for me the limits made it easier to play. After i finally figured out how Wild Shape works, i was enjoying things. Then last night my character died. I'm taking the NPC cleric as my next character, but again my brain hurts with all the spells, channelings and other minutae... I really don't know what it is, I played Ars Magica with no problems, I love casters in most games, but even fighters seem like if you choose a wrong feat, you'll pay for it later. Is there another class like Shifter, limited in scope that has enough "automatic" level advancements (like those claws) that might fit my play style?

I was thinking about asking to be a warpriest instead of cleric. But I'm not sure if I'll keep this npc turned PC. I'd make another shifter, but I want to accept that character's death and at level 5 ressurection is pretty much out.


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Warpriests are far more complex than Clerics in terms of mechanics. I would suggest going as a Paladin if you want to be a "fighty" Cleric with easy-to-learn mechanics.


Clarification: the warpriest would be a slight change to that NPC, not me wanting to play one after it. But if warpriest is more complex, i might stay as a cleric. We have a cleric already, so i was looking to be something different, but not too far off as the npc was introduced to the group already. She's Neutral, so couldn't be a paladin.

After this character, in the future, would you have any suggestions? In a different Adventure Path, I might try the Shifter again. But for this Path anything not heavy on feats and/or spells? I really do like the claw progression. Every few levels an improvement to damage without having to look over a magic weapin list was nice. That was the main reason i looked at the warpriest.


Having two Clerics in a group is overly-redundant, and can lead to intra-group quarreling over loot, so this is generally a bad idea. I'd seriously recommend that you talk to your GM about rolling as a Paladin if you want to play as a Divine class with not-so-many-spells. They're very easy to play and have comparatively minimal bookkeeping.

In the future, if you like playing as a shifter, I'd recommend Druid. Druids are 9th level prepared-Casters, so that might be off-putting for you. But you can focus more on your Wild Shape with feats. You might find the Goliath archetype Druid interesting to play.

Sovereign Court

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Another solution.

Play a non-casting class (fighter/barbarian/swashbuckler) and find a class guide you like.
Follow their build advice each level: they’ll tell you what feats/powers to pick and explain how to use them.

Simple. You can focus on gameplay/role play and the complex rules interactions are done for you.

If a build looks too complex, choose a simpler one.


ZorValachan wrote:
I'd make another shifter, but I want to accept that character's death

Since it went well with a shifter, I absolutely recommend another one. It can still be a different character, when it comes to race, gender, ability scores, shifter aspects, items, social behavior etc..

Quote:
at level 5 ressurection is pretty much out.

With some GM support raising the dead works from level 1. If the group can't do it, the GM can always send some level 9+ cleric NPC along. If the group can't pay, the cleric can pay it since their goals match, the group agreed on later payment or they promised a favor later. Technically the cleric could also ask for a quest right now, but then the player with the dead character can't play this one.

Note that raise dead has a cheap alternative, named reincarnate. It's just 1,000 and comes earlier (druid level 7+). If a hag coven does it, it's even free (at least for the hags, they will demand something for it). Of course there is a reason for the lower price: Your character's race is very likely to change. This can turn out well or bad, both mechanically and story-wise.


Zen Archer Monk... no stupid spells, no real stats necessary other than Wisdom, no stupid god to worry about, just Flurry of Bows over and over and over... be a Strix, don't even have to worry about movement. Literally can ignore like half(?) of Pathfinder's normal BS...


Honestly, if you're looking for a class that has almost zero bookkeeping whatsoever, try a Fighter or Slayer.

Also, if you need help figuring out builds for whatever class you're playing, I'd recommend starting a new thread here in the Advice Forum entitled "Pimp my <insert class>" and give a brief introduction about what your party composition is and what kind of role you'd like to play in that group, and let the Advice Forum help break down the mechanics and build order for you.


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Slayer is great. Be a big two-handed weapon user and just power attack/furious focus your way to victory.


What about the swashbuckler? They can be sort of intricate, but most of the class abilities aren't options, you just get them. They don't have tons of bonus feats like a fighter, they don't have to pick spells or talents or rage powers. You could even throw in VMC to reduce the number of feats you have to pick even more, maybe?


You went from a heavily multiclassed character to a single class character, and enjoyed the single class character. Is it possible that it was the multiclassing itself that made the character's ability set harder for you to navigate?

People don't dislike shifter on it's own, it's better than many other classes, it just doesn't compare well to druid if you want a shifting focused character. They're still fun, and effective, they just are in the bad spot of being compared with a 9th level caster.

I agree with everyone saying slayer. They don't need to constantly look at whether or not their bonuses stack, their action types are easy enough to juggle, and you can select universally valuable bonus feats pretty easily.

Kineticist has your "base power goes up" requirement, but the class isn't very streamlined. You'd probably enjoy a kinetic knight or elemental annihilator, but burn makes it needlessly complicated. It's probably fine if your DM knows the class.

warpriest requires greater attention to action economy than many other classes, I wouldn't recommend it if you have trouble keeping track of what you can do.

All that said, try the cleric. Maybe it was just the multiclassing thing that was causing problems.

Silver Crusade

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Ryze Kuja wrote:
Having two Clerics in a group is overly-redundant

This is fairly inaccurate... you could have a 4 man group of clerics, call them the A-men, and all of them could be vastly different from another.

example-
negative energy channeling tank
"warrior" cleric that buffs themselves for martial combat
healer cleric focused on supporting and keeping the others up
summoner cleric focused on clotting the field with celestial creatures.


rorek55 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Having two Clerics in a group is overly-redundant

This is fairly inaccurate... you could have a 4 man group of clerics, call them the A-men, and all of them could be vastly different from another.

example-
negative energy channeling tank
"warrior" cleric that buffs themselves for martial combat
healer cleric focused on supporting and keeping the others up
summoner cleric focused on clotting the field with celestial creatures.

Sounds like a blast bud. Have fun with your 100% chance to have 4-6 hour combats on CR equivalent fights.


Considering your stated preferences for what you liked about the shiftier, it seems like a monk could work well for you. They do get some feats, but you can either choose one combat maneuver or style chain to focus on, or you can just go for static defense and offense boosts that help support the standard frame. I haven't seen them, but from what I've heard, an unchained monk is simpler than normal. The big thing though is flurry of blows and unarmed strike, both pretty straight forward basic progressions.


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The thing about melee combat is, you have to put up with all the BS of melee combat. Why worry about closing distance to the enemy (what if there is difficult terrain? MORE rules?!), or flanking (ugh, rules, rules, rules)...

You can just hover at your chosen height and full attack from where you want to be... pretty much every round. What rules are there to worry about? ZAM gets access to all the feats to ignore cover, yay, less rules. You get early access to Point Blank Master, another thing you no longer have to concern yourself with... not that anyone can get up in your face anyways, since you are flying, but it's nice to have.

If you worship the right god, you can even switch the Fly skill to Wisdom with a trait. Lol.

A different trait will let you treat wind effects as one catagory lower... helps you flying AND shooting arrows. More stuff you don't have to concern yourself with.

Armor? Any rules dealing with armor? Nope.

Antimagic Field? Don't care.

Strix Zen Archer Monk is the honey badger of PF1...


You're probably right VMonk, but the OP may need a build guide to find those rule mitigating feats and traits.


I think if you're playing the NPC Cleric then asking to change him/her to a Paladin is a tood idea. Paladins have a great learning curve - they get new abilities most levels, but it's spaced out so you can learn what you have before new things get introduced. Starting at level 5 means you have to jump in deeper a little quicker, but I think it'll still be a lot easier than a lot of other options.

Besodes that any non-casting class is probably a good idea (besides Brawler).

If you want a few more options or want to try a caster I recommend a spontaneous caster over a prepared caster. The mechanics and book-keeping of spontaneous casting is MUCH easier. You can make poor choices and end up with sub-optimal spells, but with a little input from your GM or the pther players (or us) you should manage a viable - if not optimal - spell list that frees up you time at the table to just play. If going with the NPC Cleric you could talk about changing it to an Oracle, which has some great flavour to help you find a route for roleplay and will be a huge asset to the party.

Silver Crusade

Ryze Kuja wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Having two Clerics in a group is overly-redundant

This is fairly inaccurate... you could have a 4 man group of clerics, call them the A-men, and all of them could be vastly different from another.

example-
negative energy channeling tank
"warrior" cleric that buffs themselves for martial combat
healer cleric focused on supporting and keeping the others up
summoner cleric focused on clotting the field with celestial creatures.

Sounds like a blast bud. Have fun with your 100% chance to have 4-6 hour combats on CR equivalent fights.

it seems to me, you haven't played much cleric. but out of curiosity, why do you think that the fights would last so long.


Thanks for all the replies. It gives me a lot to think about. And I apologize if I wasn't clear. I was typing at wok on my phone. Now I can use my computer and take time.

Fuller explanation:
I did the entire Iron God AP. I chose mysterious stranger (gunslinger) because I liked the idea of a Charisma based Face/cowgirl type character. I was a Tiefling. I went 1 or 2 levels into picaroon because they had a shoot a gun up close and ignore AoA. I went skald frankly because character advancement was a pain and i bought Hero Lab and just the gunslinger pack. I went by "theme" and not by book and it had barbarian, skald, gunslinger and swashbuckler.

The Grit/Panache mechanics were not difficult. google searches and forums helped me a lot. But i did not understand iterative attacks and didn't realize I was not getting my full number of attacks until i should have been having 3 attacks a round. Things like that. The limited scope of shooting made feats more easy. I hesitate making a fighter just because of all the feat "chains" or "trees" or whatever they are called. Choose something that seems cool, but it messes you up later and all feats franking IMO are not viable options. there are a lot to wade through... This is where my eyes glaze over and I just want to close my eyes and randomly choose. Spells for some reason in pathfinder do this a lot to me. It might just be that the writing is very different from what puts me at ease. The Skald part was the hardest part of that character, but I liked the giving weapons magical properties (if that was a sub-class or archetype That is the one I picked, where rage gave rounds of making weapons magical). Spells were basically worthless as 2nd level spells just get resisted when you are doing 18th level. things.

Now we are doing Strange Aeons. I might have to have spoilers to explain the situation: SPOILER WARNING FOR STRANGE AEONS

The first book was locked in an asylum. No "real" NPCs other than the cleric I mentioned with an obvious class. The party (including my character the most) really liked her and formed a "bond". The shifter ironically does not come in any of the hero lab packs. So I spent a literal month pre-game studying shifters, reading guides, etc. The plan I had wasn't really in a guide, but I think I learned enough from them to have something I liked. We got to 4th level. This town we are in. Apparently we killed the druid of the town and anyone of any type of importance besides a detective lady left or is missing. No clerics, no nothing to resurrect me (even if we did have the money). After my death the group became level 5. Literally the only person in this town that would be willing to join the party (apparently we are known in that town to be thugs who bullied everyone (we were in the asylum with amnesia) is that cleric. We have dealt with her enough to know she is a cleric, so switching to paladin would seem strange. before my death we even planned to meet up the next morning, so she is available. So for now I am fine playing a 5th level cleric although the last day has caused my head to hurt when trying to chose domains and feats... Like how situational is combat casting. what about the warpriest feat (not the class)... if in doubt choose toughness?

But after this stint, I am not sure I want to play the cleric any longer. I got a bit of her back story and after this mystery is solved, she wants to head back and that is fine with me. if I could get the Shifter rezzed, I would and I am normally one not to bring back a dead character. normally I play to survive, but have 2-5 back up ideas in my head. And that is what hit me today. I don't enjoy Pathfinder as a system, so there is nothing saying "I'd like to try X or Y or Z".

as my problem, I think it is more the "front load" aspect and character advancement that sets my paralysis. What to choose before the game starts and when leveling. it's like when you have 2 choices it's easy to choose, but when you have 50 feats from dozens (hundreds?) of books, what to choose? So limiting that choice is needed. When combat happens I am fine with situational modifiers (if I am aware of them). It's the making sure my sheet is correct and I understand it that is the glitch.

We play on Roll20, because even though we are real life friends, people moved to different states. Everyone else has an understanding of Pathfinder and a couple are encyclopedias on the game, but it's much harder to get in depth when it's online in a 3 hour session.

Like I said, The GM made all of our characters (which is one thing that interested me). at 2nd level we got to choose our own path. Some of us are more secretive than others (its a Call of Cthulhu type game and we have some very out there classes.

I was a shifter (half-elf). I was one of 2 front line melee and probably the least "strange"
We have a human Bard-subclass, whatever the phrenologist is (head bumps) he is one of the 2 healers.
a sorcerer (who seems necromanty and I thought was a changeling, but its a male (shrug).
Human Eldritch Fighter who I think is wanting to go cleric or paladin.
Gnome shadow summoner
human alchemist(?) makes bombs and potions
human cleric (pretty sure it's a Cthulhu-thing god he worships)

The phrenologist hates his character... i might try to see if we can get a life swap thing.

Again, I thank everyone for your suggestions and patience. even if i can get rezzed, it's good to have an idea of another class.

The Zen archer looks interesting, even if the strix would not be allowed (not sure on the GM's view for this AP)


rorek55 wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
rorek55 wrote:


This is fairly inaccurate... you could have a 4 man group of clerics, call them the A-men, and all of them could be vastly different from another.

example-
negative energy channeling tank
"warrior" cleric that buffs themselves for martial combat
healer cleric focused on supporting and keeping the others up
summoner cleric focused on clotting the field with celestial creatures.

Sounds like a blast bud. Have fun with your 100% chance to have 4-6 hour combats on CR equivalent fights.
it seems to me, you haven't played much cleric. but out of curiosity, why do you think that the fights would last so long.

At a guess? Your cleric team is going to have a lot of actions due to the summoned critters but won't put out a lot of damage per round. The healer will keep the team going, but you're looking at fights of maybe 6-10 rounds instead of 3-5. And the rounds will take a while to resolve.


So you have a 7 person party?
You should be able to play pretty much whatever you like then, every base is already covered.

As far as the Analysis Paralysis, I agree that's a huge problem with Fighters (feats) and Clerics (spells). They might be the 2 worst offenders if this is a problem for you.

Seriously take a look at the Oracle. A cleric finds divine power by choosing to worship a god, an Oracle gets the same divine power but the god chooses them (although the Oracle could happily accept this choice if they wanted to). You could very easily re-flavour a Cleric to be an Oracle instead, but then you wouldn't have the mind-numbing spell list to choose from every day, you'd just have your shortlist of spells known.

If you're unsure which spells (or feats or whatever) to choose when leveling just ask one of the other players or the GM to help you. We have someone in our group who doesn't know the rules, so when we level I go through his spell list and pick a few strong and/or flavourful options and present them to him. This means he doesn't have to know every spell on the Bard list to know what to pick, he just chooses from the 5-10 that I show him (I do this with feats too). I also print off his character sheet for him with attacks already calculated.

This is a group game, so if you need a little help when leveling up just ask the group.

Silver Crusade

I'm a player in a Strange Aeons game, so I'm familiar with where you are.

Regarding character background, you could easily be another one of the asylum patients (perhaps you suddenly became lucid), or an employee of the Sleepless Agency. And not everyone in Thrushmoor hates you. Keldrin Mon is a former friend of someone in the party; Elgrior Nasmeth (the doomsayer) could be turned into a PC, and so could Lelwyn Hasok (the artistic elf). I agree that Winter Klaczka (the cleric) isn't really a great choice.


If iterative attacks are still troublesome for you, I rescind the monk suggestion. If not, may still be your friend.

The advice to have fellow players help you build is solid. If you want to gain more personal system mastery, maybe arrange for a few none game tutorial sessions with your more expert players.

I think you said you like casters in other games. What part of spell lists makes your eyes glaze? If it's just the big blocks of text, then it could be as simple as just looking at the spells by class and level lists. Brief and flavorful descriptions for each spell. Choose what you want from there, then you only need to worry about looking up the specific spells you chose.

Also, can't agree enough. For you, spontaneous caster, if you play caster at all. Especially at early levels, clerics are the absolute worst for choice paralysis.

For feats, remember that retraining is a thing. Yes the lists are exhaustive, but you aren't stuck forever with a "bad choice". If you need to pare down, develop your concept first, then search by key words. You can find feats to help you be good at just about whatever you want to do, without having to slog through the whole list. I'm a fan of unique racial feats for instance.

Grand Lodge

Barbarian - Go HULK on them. Power attack - done!

Or more complicated:
Breaker Barbarian (more damage) or Wildborn Barbarian (more free feats)
Take Shikigami Style and perhaps the Grapple feat-chain . Put in superstitious rage power along the way.

Appropiate feats: Dirty Fighting or Combat expertise (dip brawler to keep your int low) Improved grapple, rapid grappler, greater grapple,
At level 10, take Body Bludgeon rage power and beat up enemies with each other.

The rest of the Shikigami Style feat chain is feat taxing. Consider Wildborn Barbarian for this.

Silver Crusade

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smallfoot wrote:

At a guess? Your cleric team is going to have a lot of actions due to the summoned critters but won't put out a lot of damage per round. The healer will keep the team going, but you're looking at fights of maybe 6-10 rounds instead of 3-5. And the rounds will take a while to resolve.

At level 7-

The warrior cleric with a greatsword that worships Gorum can easily be dealing 2d6+13 per attack at ~15-16 to hit, without power attack, power attack increases the damage by 6. with only a +1 weapon and two spells. Bulls strength and divine favor. He can up that by 3 more damage with greater bulls strength for a +8 to his strength.

The negative energy cleric can channel, with a phlycatery of negative energy, for ~6d6+7-10 to everyone within a 30ft radius of her.

The summoner can summon, at best, a celestial tiger with pounce, and maybe even a spiritual weapon before smacking things themselves. After all they got a d8, good armor, and decent weapons.

The healer cleric keeps them all healthy and alive.

Totally seems like a really long fight.


ZorValachan wrote:

I'm not exactly new to Pathfinder. I've been playing for at least 3 years. I really dislike the system. But I love the adventure paths and the other players (real life friends) all enjoy the system. I'm there for the plot and having fun with friends.

My previous Adventure Path (Iron Gods) i had a gunslinger-mysterious stranger/swashbuckler-picaroon/skald. And she made it through the entire path. I was often misreading rules, not understanding things. It seemed i was 2-3 levels late in realizing i could do something.

But I don't want to bash a system many people Love. It just doesn't fit me well. I just need help/advice.

We began Strange Aeons and the GM assigned us starting characters. I was a shifter. I know the majority think it's a bad class, but for me the limits made it easier to play. After i finally figured out how Wild Shape works, i was enjoying things. Then last night my character died. I'm taking the NPC cleric as my next character, but again my brain hurts with all the spells, channelings and other minutae... I really don't know what it is, I played Ars Magica with no problems, I love casters in most games, but even fighters seem like if you choose a wrong feat, you'll pay for it later. Is there another class like Shifter, limited in scope that has enough "automatic" level advancements (like those claws) that might fit my play style?

I was thinking about asking to be a warpriest instead of cleric. But I'm not sure if I'll keep this npc turned PC. I'd make another shifter, but I want to accept that character's death and at level 5 ressurection is pretty much out.

What exactly do you dislike? We might be able to help you choose a class that avoids those pitfalls.

More generally though, my advice is: If you don't like the system, don't play it. Seriously.

I quit playing PF2 for precisely that reason. Of that group that was playing PF2, only 1 person was really enjoying it. We stopped the campaign and started a Starfinder campaign.


It's true you don't need every rule memorized, but understanding that generally cleric channels effect everyone in a burst to heal all living or damage all undead (for positive energy channels) is a pretty basic concept to know. And knowing that you need a feat for it not to effect everyone in the burst is too.

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