So Background:
I'm a level 7 Fighter (archery focused). I plan on taking Wasp Familiar soon. Besides the general aura benefits from Wasp Familiar, I'd like to use it to cast some wands for me. I'm not as worried at the moment for what archetypes to take, how to get my familiars UMD higher, etc.. right now my main question is as the title states:
What are good spell(s) (ideally 1) to put on a wand for the express purpose of interrupting an enemy caster, with a focus on effectiveness, cost efficiency, and not hindering my own party
Here's what I have so far:
Damage (Cancels spell by forcing difficult Concentration Check):
- Lightning Bolt (11250 gp) | Average Concentration DC = 27 + Spell Level being casted | AOE Dmg in Line | SR Applies (avg 15 CL roll)
- Scorching Ray (4500 gp) | Average Concentration DC = 24 + Spell Level being casted | Single Target | SR Applies (avg 13 CL roll)
- Snowball (3750 gp) | Average Concentration DC = 27 + Spell Level being casted | Single Target | SR Applies (avg 15 CL roll)
Line of Sight (Cancels Targeted Spells, 50% miss chance for attack spells (rays), Does nothing to AOE Spells):
- Fog Cloud (4500 gp) | 20 ft radius w/ medium range | 10min/lvl | Could Affect Myself (Archer)
- Obscuring Mist (750 gp) | 20 ft radius on self | 1min/lvl | Could Affect Myself (Archer)
- Mudball (750 gp) | Ranged Touch Immediate Blind effectively until enemies' turn (no save before then) | Only Affects Target
Line of Effect/Sight (Cancels all spells (attacks, targeted, and AOE)):
- Silent Image (750 gp) | Creation of Wall/Dome 10ft high, 40ft wide | No Save without interaction (throwing rock, touching wall, etc.)
So with all the above in mind, which is best?
- It seems to be that the cloud affects aren't very useful as they affect myself and my party too.. this could come back to bite us.
- Then the Mudball spell may be useful, but only partially .. e.g. it would Cancel Targeted spells, 50% miss chance for attacks, and not affect AOE spells.
- Silent image seems like it would be the most useful, as there is no immediate save, and since it happened while they were casting the spell, they can either: A. try to cast it on the wall/another target that's in line of sight/line of effect, or B. Let the spell Fizzle. But I believe the usefulness of this depends on whether or not my familiar can stop concentrating IMMEDIATELY after the enemy's spell fizzles (is this legal?). If not, they will just touch/throw a rock, detect it's fake, then it wont work again. Also loses usefulness when True Seeing becomes a thing.
And then Damage spells are the default, but they have the problem of:
1. Concentration DC not scaling as levels increase (By lvl 12 the average Concentration Check Roll is 27, already at parity with the Average Concentration DC for snowball)
2. Spell Resistance is generally 11+CR, and if we pull directly from Bestiary, the Average SR is already 16.5 by CR 5 (which I'm already lvl 7). Meaning already on average the damage wands will just flat out fail by that lvl.
Which do you think would be the most useful for my purposes? And if not any of the ones I listed, what other options (within this same usecase)?
Get the Conjuration/Creation version of Snowball... no spell resistance, no save for the damage, and a Fort save vs Staggered.
VoodistMonk wrote: Get the Conjuration/Creation version of Snowball... no spell resistance, no save for the damage, and a Fort save vs Staggered. Unfortunately we play with "errata included".. so no Stagger and SR added.. since it was wiped out in Ultimate Wilderness
That is an unfortunate way to play.
I happily ignore every FAQ/Errata that subtracts from something's effectiveness or fun... obviously not every table plays the same.
I will see if I can find something else for you.
VoodistMonk wrote: That is an unfortunate way to play.
I happily ignore every FAQ/Errata that subtracts from something's effectiveness or fun... obviously not every table plays the same.
I will see if I can find something else for you.
Sounds good! Yeah listed above are just some potential options I thought of. If there are other options that better fit my particular usecase.. I'm definitely open to them
Look into the witch spell list
Adhesive Spittle
Forced Quiet
Itching Curse
Lock Gaze
Shadow Trap
Web Bolt
should all be good choices
If you happen to be size small then expeditious construction can break line of effect for you. Save, what save? SR, what SR?
A wand of vanish isn't a good investment if you yourself would use it, but it should be fine for a familiar to use. It wouldn't protect the familiar at the same time tho'. If you scale up to a wand of invisibility then the familiar could turn invisible then do the same for you as required.
It's getting expensive but a tiny hut spell is perfect for breaking LOS in one direction only.
I think concentration lasts until the caster's next action BTW.
Zotpox wrote: Look into the witch spell list
Adhesive Spittle
Forced Quiet
Itching Curse
Lock Gaze
Shadow Trap
Web Bolt
should all be good choices
So comparing to the options I have so far, this is what I got:
- Adhesive Spittle: Would take an extra round to setup as I'm assuming you'd need to first use the standard to activate the wand.. then a standard to spit. Even if doing like, have familiar cast it on me, i spit, then im using my standard. No sure if totally viable for this usecase.
- Forced Quiet: Does this stop anything? It says "This does not affect spellcasting by the target".
- Itching Curse: Assuming lvl 1 wand, the spell DC for this would be 10+1+0 so 11. That's pretty low and probably wouldnt be that affective for long. Ideally we probably want things that dont allow a save.. as saves from wand spells aren't gonna be great.
- Lock Gaze: Same as above, Low save.
- Shadow Trap: I thought may be good, but it depends on if that save can occur anytime on their turn as it says "Each round on its turn". If they can make the save when the spell attempts to interrupt them, then this is probably a poor option due to the low save. If they can't, then it's an ok option as it applies entangle... though not as good as some of the initial options as it doesn't outright stop any type of casting.
- Web Bolt: Since it uses the Spell DC instead of grapple CMB like normal, the DC is too low from a wand to really be effective. And they get a saving throw right when the spell hits them, as opposed to "at the beginning of their turn" like with Mudball.
Basically it feels like it has to be something either without a save, or with a save that can only occur at a time separate from when they are hit by the spell.
avr wrote: If you happen to be size small then expeditious construction can break line of effect for you. Save, what save? SR, what SR?
A wand of vanish isn't a good investment if you yourself would use it, but it should be fine for a familiar to use. It wouldn't protect the familiar at the same time tho'. If you scale up to a wand of invisibility then the familiar could turn invisible then do the same for you as required.
It's getting expensive but a tiny hut spell is perfect for breaking LOS in one direction only.
I think concentration lasts until the caster's next action BTW.
Unfortunately im not small ;[.. Though, I didnt even think of things like vanish (750gp) / invisibility (4500gp). I could definitely see these for protecting myself, but Ideally I want to help my party as well! And I'm not sure if I can detect whom the spellcaster is casting at when i fire off my readied spell to make that person invisible (i doubt i can). And Tiny Hut (11250gp) I've never seen before! Would this block both Line of Sight AND Line of Effect? If so then it makes it a decent option for "blocking" ALL spells like Silent Image is for it's first cast... I'm not sure because it mentions spell effects past through.
And dang... if concentration lasts until the caster's next action then silent image at worst will only work for 1 round...They may not touch the wall so they may not find out.. but if they do, it'll probably not be effective after that. So maybe Silent Image until they figure it out (they'll have to spend one of their/their allies' action to discover it to be fake), and then something else after that.
Not exactly anti-spellcaster (other than disarming rods, I suppose): Burning Disarm. Its notable because successfully saving means you drop the metal item, which is generally more of a disadvantage then taking a little bit of damage.
Burst of Radiance can be ok for the 'damage interruption' aspect, as the save isn't on the damage only the blindness. Since it only damages evil creatures it can be safer for the party. Though they still have to save vs blind.
Boneshaker has decent damage for low caster level (4d6 at CL3) and can move the target 5'... without the normal caveats that you can't be moved into hostile terrain.
Shackle is notable as SR: No. My search-fu is a little weak and I am not seeing anything about spell failure but I imagine having your hands shackled behind your back is detrimental to casting spells with somatic components.
Drunkards Breath can nauseate, but fort negates.
Firebug wrote: Not exactly anti-spellcaster (other than disarming rods, I suppose): Burning Disarm. Its notable because successfully saving means you drop the metal item, which is generally more of a disadvantage then taking a little bit of damage.
Burst of Radiance can be ok for the 'damage interruption' aspect, as the save isn't on the damage only the blindness. Since it only damages evil creatures it can be safer for the party. Though they still have to save vs blind.
Boneshaker has decent damage for low caster level (4d6 at CL3) and can move the target 5'... without the normal caveats that you can't be moved into hostile terrain.
Shackle is notable as SR: No. My search-fu is a little weak and I am not seeing anything about spell failure but I imagine having your hands shackled behind your back is detrimental to casting spells with somatic components.
Drunkards Breath can nauseate, but fort negates.
I'll definitely keep Burning Disarm in mind for my rod-wielding enemy casters! Another spell I hadn't thought of. Though Ideally want to be a bit more general. As for the others:
- Burst of Radiance (7500gp): The Reflex save is pretty low (10+2+1=13) So they will probably make the save meaning it would go from blinded to dazzled , and the dmg itself is pretty low compared to purely dmg spells mentioned above (12.5 dmg). But I like that it's like a combo, has a chance at now only interrupting from the dmg, but also the blind. Only other worry is that it has the Spell Resistance that's also pretty low (average of 15 assuming CL 5 wand). Im not sure if it would be better to have multiple low options or just 1 really good one (like snowball for dmg or mudball for line of sight).
- Boneshaker (4500 @ CL3): This one is cool (both effect and flavor-wise). Like you said the dmg is decent at base, but it's technically less than snowball (@5d6) and costs more. It also can be saved to half that dmg, making it even less. Not sure if it's worth with the other options.
- Shackle (4500gp @ CL3): Range at touch I feel like I'd just smack them from up close as opposed to worrying about trying to counter their cast with a wand. The higher lvl restaints start getting really expensive as well. Also that the saving throw itself at default CL would only be 13 reflex to negate.
- Drunkards Breath (4500gp @ CL3): Awesome that this has no SR! Again though DC would only be a 13 Fort. Now this may be decent though since it's fort vs spellcasters. And Nauseated really shuts them down! Though I feel like I could do similar with just a Ghast Retch flask, at only 1 DC lower at DC 12 Fort for nauseated AND sickened.. with A sickened effect regardless of save.
Tiny hut isn't solid, it doesn't break LOE. Just LOS.
avr wrote: Tiny hut isn't solid, it doesn't break LOE. Just LOS. Dang then yeah at that point I might as well just have a wand of mudball. It would have to hit a ranged touch attack. But that's already a 1d20+12 for my Wasp Familiar at lvl 7, which should be well in the clear to hit Touch AC, even if a 2 is rolled. Also like you said, that cost is steep compared to the 750gp for Mudball to block LOS.
Tiny hut works on everything rather than one target, and for the entire encounter (unless something runs up to melee with you, and it still works vs. ranged/spells in that case) rather than possibly just a round. And you have a nice tent/igloo-equivalent. At that cost it's probably not viable at level 7 though.
avr wrote: Tiny hut works on everything rather than one target, and for the entire encounter (unless something runs up to melee with you, and it still works vs. ranged/spells in that case) rather than possibly just a round. And you have a nice tent/igloo-equivalent. At that cost it's probably not viable at level 7 though. Yeah it's give and take it feels like:
- basically cost-wise 15 casts of Mudball == 1 Cast of Tiny Hut. You probably only need 1 cast of Tiny Hut per encounter, though.
- Tiny hut could shutdown multiple casters/ranged while Mudball would only shutdown 1 per turn.
- Tiny Hut AND Mudball not only help versus attacks to allies (Total Concealment), but also hinder the enemy... e.g. attacking an enemy from Tiny hut is like attacking from Invisibility +2 to attack rolls and attacking flatfooted AC. While Mudball gives blinded so (-2 AC, flatfooted AC, -4 penalty on strength/dex checks, and DC 10 acrobatics to move more than half speed). So Mudball gives more in the way of debuff, but again can only target 1. So ill have to compare the two, especially as level and money increases. If money wasn't an object (It always seems to be) then it seems like the hut would be better.
How about the spells Sleet Storm, Ash Storm, and Conjure Carriage which can be used as hard cover and breaks LOE and LOS. no saves
Meanwhile back in save or suck land
Agonizing Rebuke (will)
Bestow Curse (will)
Irregular Size (fort)
Howling Agony (fort)
are all excellent choices.
Zotpox wrote: How about the spells Sleet Storm, Ash Storm, and Conjure Carriage which can be used as hard cover and breaks LOE and LOS. no saves
Meanwhile back in save or suck land
Agonizing Rebuke (will)
Bestow Curse (will)
Irregular Size (fort)
Howling Agony (fort)
are all excellent choices.
Thanks for the options! Going through them..:
- Sleet/Ash Storm (11250 gp): Both handle LOS pretty readily, and also apply additional effects (half movespeed and difficult terrain, respectively). Though with that being the only affect, they are basically worse versions of a Fog Cloud wand (4500gp). It's much cheaper, also fully prevents LOS, and doesnt mess with the terrain in a way that could affect the party negatively. And same with the fog spell, not being able to see messes my archery up as well.
- Conjure Carriage (11250 gp): Also a lot of gold, but definitely would block LOS and LOE as you mentioned, so that's good! Could also use for other purposes. I'd say this falls into the same area as a Tiny Hut wand, except that Tiny Hut probably holds more people. MAYBE the carriage could provide mobile cover, but it says it fails checks to move in "Dangerous Conditions".. which battle probably qualifies as. Probably would go with Tiny Hut over this for those reasons, and that it blocks in all directions. Scratch that... I forgot that Tiny Hut doesnt stop LOE. This Carriage then may be the only option to stop LOE that I currently see besides first turn Silent Image.. at least in a single direction.
- Agonizing Rebuke (Will DC 14 | 11250 gp), Bestow Curse (Will DC 16 | 21000 gp), Irregular Size (Fort DC 16 | 21000 gp), and Howling Agony (Fort DC 14 | 11250 gp) all have the same issue as other save or suck on wands. Relatively low save DC for the level that their cost will make sense at.
Even if cost wasn't a problem, the highest DC you're seeing is 16. Which may go a bit farther versus casters for Fort, but even then is pretty low when considering average bestiary save stats (all saves would be at an average of at least 16 when added to a d20 roll by lvl 7). If spending that much money, it would make more sense to have a wand that for sure would shut them down (like you put with Conjure Carriage).
This seems to show again that the easiest way to handle this problem is when a save isn't allowed T_T
VoodistMonk wrote: That is an unfortunate way to play.
I happily ignore every FAQ/Errata that subtracts from something's effectiveness or fun... obviously not every table plays the same.
I will see if I can find something else for you.
There's taking it the other way : players were abusing it hence the errata. Given similar spells around these levels, it works now as intended. Sometimes it's on the players to adapt.
grayson773 wrote: This seems to show again that the easiest way to handle this problem is when a save isn't allowed T_T These effects are often of weaker effect than those allowing one so it's not exactly a go-to move. In any case for the wands to have a decent effect, the player has to raise the caster level because taking the lowest is unlikely tu cut it. The problem is it's more expensive.
One that I don't see mentioned is acid arrow. It's not the strongest, but the DOT aspect of it is something to consider.
Philippe Lam wrote: VoodistMonk wrote: That is an unfortunate way to play.
I happily ignore every FAQ/Errata that subtracts from something's effectiveness or fun... obviously not every table plays the same.
I will see if I can find something else for you.
There's taking it the other way : players were abusing it hence the errata. Given similar spells around these levels, it works now as intended. Sometimes it's on the players to adapt.
grayson773 wrote: This seems to show again that the easiest way to handle this problem is when a save isn't allowed T_T These effects are often of weaker effect than those allowing one so it's not exactly a go-to move. In any case for the wands to have a decent effect, the player has to raise the caster level because taking the lowest is unlikely tu cut it. The problem is it's more expensive. That's the thing though. Creating a wand at a higher CL DOES NOT increase the Spell DC. Wand Spell DC = 10 + Spell Level + min Ability score required... and min ability score is based on 10+Spell Level. E.g. even if you have a 20 int wand of grease, it will always have a DC of 11.
So the highest DC you're gonna get out of a wand is 10 + 4 + 2 = 16. That's why it seems like the best options for my usecase are those without a save.
ShadowcatX wrote: One that I don't see mentioned is acid arrow. It's not the strongest, but the DOT aspect of it is something to consider. I definitely thought about Acid Arrow but I felt that, while it was an option, it just didn't stack up to the other options. like:
CL 3 Acid Arrow (4500 gp): 5 avg dmg per turn, for 2 turns
CL 6 Acid Arrow (9000 gp): 5 avg dmg per turn, for 3 turns
CL 9 Acid Arrow (13500 gp): 5 avg dmg per turn, for 4 turns
It just felt like the damage wasn't nearly enough to give a difficult concentration check, and the cost was also much more than would be worth for the effect it gave.. especially when CL5 Snowball exists for 3750 gp dealing avg 17 dmg per cast. No SR is pretty good, but the dmg just isn't enough IMO.
I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).
You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).
Belafon wrote: I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).
You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).
I've never heard of this spell but reading it, it seems great! My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?
If YES, then that's definitely a great option for higher level when the money is available.
One callout on mudball: make sure your GM is going to allow you to use it. It's from the goblin section of the Advanced Race Guide, and the ARG specifically says about racial spells: "members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission."
Having said that, you are right and it is definitely the best low-cost caster-stopper. There's a reason PFS did NOT allow non-goblins to learn it.
grayson773 wrote: My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting? Your familiar would use Spellcraft to identify the spell, and it doesn't take an action.
CRB page 106 wrote: Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors. Deciding to use a readied blast barrier is optional.
CRB page 203 wrote: Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. "May" is the key word.
The familiar would make the decision on where to place it as it casts.
CRB page 213 wrote: You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
Belafon wrote: One callout on mudball: make sure your GM is going to allow you to use it. It's from the goblin section of the Advanced Race Guide, and the ARG specifically says about racial spells: "members of other races can learn to cast them with GM permission."
Having said that, you are right and it is definitely the best low-cost caster-stopper. There's a reason PFS did NOT allow non-goblins to learn it.
Yeah I talked to GM and it's fine assuming it's being casted with UMD. Which is how my familiar will be casting it. But yeah, low-levels, mudball is looking quite good for reasons mentioned above... maybe as a backup wand when the Silent Image trick has been figured out by the enemy.
Belafon wrote: grayson773 wrote: My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting? Your familiar would use Spellcraft to identify the spell, and it doesn't take an action.
CRB page 106 wrote: Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors. Deciding to use a readied blast barrier is optional.
CRB page 203 wrote: Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. "May" is the key word.
The familiar would make the decision on where to place it as it casts.
CRB page 213 wrote: You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect. Awesome. Then this is definitely added to the list as an option. Making that spellcraft check shouldnt be difficult either as GM only uses 15+SL, and doesn't add any perception checks to it unless something really crazy is going on.
grayson773 wrote: Belafon wrote: I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).
You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).
I've never heard of this spell but reading it, it seems great! My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?
If YES, then that's definitely a great option for higher level when the money is available. Now where Blast Barrier is concerned, it's just a matter of figuring out how to let both my familiar's Spellcraft AND UMD to be high enough to make this viable.. UMD was fine (since it used my Fighter's ranks in it), but I have 0 ranks in Spellcraft lol. So ill have to look into this.
Edit: But I guess anyone could do the spellcraft and shout out what spell is being casted right? It doesn't have to be my familiar doing the check?
Consider higher level version of a lower level spell, eg
Magic Missile at lv 7 does 4d4+4 = 10 dmg, no save, no to hit roll, Wand cost = 5250
Another option is reach spell metamagic'ed versions- eg a shocking Grasp with reach spell is 4500 gp for 3d6 no save, ranged touch...
grayson773 wrote: grayson773 wrote: Belafon wrote: I love tiny hut for all the reasons mentioned (breaks LOS in only one direction).
You might also consider blast barrier. It is the same cost as tiny hut (11,250) and it creates total cover (Breaks LOS/LOE). If your familiar can identify what spell is being cast, it can know whether to put the spell adjacent to you (for non-damaging spells so you can 5' step to the side and have clear LOS to the enemy) or adjacent to the caster (if it's a damaging spell he'll probably end up blowing up the barrier on himself).
I've never heard of this spell but reading it, it seems great! My question is say my Familiar readies a wand of Blast Barrier versus a enemy caster. Is detecting what spell is being casted an Immediate Action? Like can it, all during the enemy's turn, detect the spell being casted AND decide, 1. whether to unleash the Blast Barrier, and 2. Where to place it, AND also cast the spell all in response to the enemy casting?
If YES, then that's definitely a great option for higher level when the money is available. Now where Blast Barrier is concerned, it's just a matter of figuring out how to let both my familiar's Spellcraft AND UMD to be high enough to make this viable.. UMD was fine (since it used my Fighter's ranks in it), but I have 0 ranks in Spellcraft lol. So ill have to look into this.
Edit: But I guess anyone could do the spellcraft and shout out what spell is being casted right? It doesn't have to be my familiar doing the check? Nevermind on this. I see taking Sage archetype on Familiar... + Pragmatic Activator (through additional traits feat), I can get decent UMD and Spellcraft.. so that works.
pad300 wrote: Consider higher level version of a lower level spell, eg
Magic Missile at lv 7 does 4d4+4 = 10 dmg, no save, no to hit roll, Wand cost = 5250
Another option is reach spell metamagic'ed versions- eg a shocking Grasp with reach spell is 4500 gp for 3d6 no save, ranged touch...
For these we can compare to the other damage options we've seen so far!:
For all of these, Spell Resistance Applies
- Magic Missile @ CL7 (5250gp): 14 dmg avg (24+SL Conc. DC), auto-hits vs non-total conceal/cover
- Reach Shocking Grasp @ CL3 (4500gp): 10 dmg avg (20+SL Conc. DC), +3 bonus vs metal
- Snowball @ CL5 (3750gp): 17 dmg avg (27+SL Conc. DC)
- Scorching Ray @ CL3 (4500gp): 14 dmg avg (24+SL Conc. DC)
- Lightning Bolt @ CL5 (11250gp): 17 dmg avg (27+SL Conc. DC), Reflex Half, in line aoe
I will say I dont care as much about not needing to roll "To Hit" as when targeting Touch AC with a +12 (at least) attack bonus, it's going to be hard to miss. But basically for each of these, the concentration check they are going to create is 10 + dmg + 'Spell Level enemy is casting'. And we also know that a concentration check roll by the enemy is 1d20 + CL + Ability Mod.
So we can easily take the average at each level, and see if on average, the Concentration DC made by the damage is more than the enemy's average roll.
So starting at lvl 7 (my current level), an enemy's average Concentration check roll is here (CL|Avg Ability Score|MOD|Avg. Conc. Check Roll (Max)):
7 || 19 | 4 | 1d20 + 11 = 21 (31)
8 || 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 13 = 23 (33)
9 || 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 14 = 24 (34)
10 | 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 15 = 25 (35)
11 | 20 | 5 | 1d20 + 16 = 26 (36)
12 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 17 = 27 (37)
13 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 18 = 28 (38)
14 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 19 = 29 (39)
15 | 21 | 5 | 1d20 + 20 = 30 (40)
From this we can see that @ lvl 8 Shocking Grasp already is failing to stop the caster the majority of the time, by lvl 10/11 for Scorching Ray and Magic Missile, and lvl 14 for Snowball and Lightning Bolt (though low reflex save here). This isn't even counting the fact that the enemy caster will probably have some Ability Score boosting items at this point in level. Meaning it may make more sense to just go with one of the no-save, no damage spells mentioned above at this point
So TLDR; Since all damage spells here are affected by SR, and even rolling a 2 to-hit probably will still hit Touch AC just fine, the main thing that matters for these spells is how difficult a concentration DC they create. BUT I will say, things like magic missile ignoring stuff like Mirror Image and Displacement may make it valuable (as most casters are probably going to have these effects). I'll need to think if this aspect is valuable enough. Also, good point on metamagic wands.. ill need to think on different combinations.
Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile.
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile. Another thing to think about! It should be pretty straightforward to calculate the chance that beat the Conc DC created by X amount of damage.. at each level, with that difficulty decreasing for each concentration check required. I'll definitely need to sit down and consider this.
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile. Actually I need to look into this... I'm seeing elsewhere that with Magic Missile it would only be ONE concentration check.. since it's ONE attack that was done.. need to find a ruling.
grayson773 wrote: Darigaaz the Igniter wrote: Magic missile has the added benefit of forcing multiple concentration checks, one for each missile. Actually I need to look into this... I'm seeing elsewhere that with Magic Missile it would only be ONE concentration check.. since it's ONE attack that was done.. need to find a ruling. Yeah seems since you're rolling concentration against damage delt, you only roll once, even if hit by multiple magic missiles, since the damage is all dealt at the same time, and it's a single attack. This would be different were you say, getting shot with 4 arrows. It's 4 different attack rolls, and 4 different damage rolls.
Ok so after looking at all the options.. I think it comes down to this:
(Again starting at my current level... these are the wands that I'd want to have available each turn to cast)
Levels 7 - 10:
- Mudball @ CL1 (750gp): LOS, Blind Effect, Ranged Touch
- Silent Image @ CL1 (750gp): LOS/LOE until Interacted With once
Reasoning:
- The goal here would be to use a Silent Image Interrupt all types of casting per-turn until it is discovered to be a ruse. Then switch to using Mudball to give: No affect vs AOE, 50% miss chance vs attacks, and 100% failure of Targeted Spells
- We don't have crazy amounts of excess money at this point (especially for something not general purpose like this), so the cheaper the better. Also unlike the obscuring mist, neither of these negatively affect myself or my party in anyway, and both effectively don't have a save for interrupting the current spell being casted.
Levels 11 - 13:
- Magic Missile @ CL7 (5250gp): Ranged Damage, "Always" Hits
- Mudball @ CL1 (750gp): see above
- Silent Image @ CL1 (750gp): see above
Reasoning:
- We now have a bit more money to reach into the "2nd tier" (e.g. 3750gp - 5250gp) of wand spells, but not enough to reach into the "3rd tier" (11250gp+). However the options in this tier are limited (snowball, scorching ray, fog cloud, magic missile).
- We pick Magic Missile over Snowball for 2 reasons:
1. It has a higher CL (7 vs 5), so it will, on average, create a higher roll (1d20+CL) versus an enemies' SR. The average SR is 11+CR, so even while beating it with Magic Missile 7 is questionable, it'll be harder to beat with Snowball.
2. For enemies without SR, Snowball may seem like the better choice as it gives a slightly higher Conc. Check (24+SL vs 27+SL), but at this level things like Mirror Image, Displacement, etc.. are prevalent already. Having something that hits past all of this like Magic Missile is pretty invaluable.
- Even with this in mind, we still have Mudball/Silent Image to use first, and only switch to Magic Missile once 1. Silent Image has been found out and 2. The enemy has some sort of miss chance/illusion in place.
Levels 14-20:
- Blast Barrier @ CL5 (11250gp): LOS/LOE, low chance dmg
- Tiny Hut @ CL5 (11250gp): one way 360 degree LOS
Reasoning:
- We're at the level now where we can afford to spend money for a more solid solution to the enemy caster problem. Both Blast Barrier and Tiny Hut have their benefits, since Blast Barrier can only be used on "unworked ground" we need to have another solution for when that's not the case.
- Neither care about SR, Saves, etc., Blast Barrier blocks both LOS AND LOE while Tiny Hut provides one way LOS and 360 degree blocking. Also with Tiny Hut compared to other LOS solutions (e.g. Mudball), it can affect multiple casters, and also only require 1 cast per encounter (with no need for concentration).
- On average I'd say my high-level fights last around 5-7 rounds (6 avg) so that would mean 6 casts of Mudball for LOS per round versus 1 of Tiny hut. Each Mudball cast == 15gp while each Tiny Hut == 225. While it still ends up costing more, we can also buy the wands at less charges (GM allows this) since we will be switching between Blast Barrier and Tiny Hut depending on the encounter location. I'm thinking 25 charges of each, for a total cost of 11250gp.
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This is what I think is the best current setup from the options in this thread.. and probably what I'll be using as I move forward. Definitely if there are other options (or if my conclusions are off-base), then let me know!
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So...
Me and wands have a history and I hold certain opinions.
See the "Cold Steel, icicle's, and a dream" thread.
Zotpox wrote: So...
Me and wands have a history and I hold certain opinions.
See the "Cold Steel, icicle's, and a dream" thread.
Ha I read through the thread. Definitely an entertaining read/exercise! But yeah goal here is to find the best options for the question in the first post, based on cost/effectiveness/etc...following RAW without any interpretation. That's why I broke it down into level ranges in that last post above^ based on feedback in this thread.
So far I feel like this was successful as I've learned about many new options, and even was able to break down above what seem to be the "best" options for this particular use-case.
I can appreciate the use of uninterpilated RAW for the avoidance of shenanigans.
I'm Just saying keep a weather eye out for The Holy Order of the Prolific Wand's super good deals.
Zotpox wrote: I can appreciate the use of uninterpilated RAW for the avoidance of shenanigans.
I'm Just saying keep a weather eye out for The Holy Order of the Prolific Wand's super good deals.
Lmao fair enough XD
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