arcane trickster: Magic trick (mage hand) sneak attack full bab?


Advice


im building an arcane trickster kobold for kicks (im a forever dm who can play for once). i was debating doing brawler: Snakebite striker to get my 1d6 sneak attack and pick up the feat Accomplished Sneak Attacker for a 1 lvl dip. granting me Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Magic trick mage hand with Improved Unarmed grants: Throw Punch- You can use mage hand to strike an opponent within the spell’s range. This is a melee attack that always deals 1d3 points of force damage. The mage hand has an attack bonus equal to your caster level plus your Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, whichever is highest. Spell resistance applies against this ability.

does this mean at lvl 6 my BAB for this spell will be +6/+1 meaning i get 2 attacks that round and can apply my sneak attack to both of them?


That's attack bonus not base attack bonus, and it appears to be a standard action which means a single attack.


What a sad and petty difference that is in terminology.


yeah just missing one word... whelp guess ill just go alchemist Vivi


I had forgotten about Magic Trick -- with Mage Hand it actually sounds pretty good and thematic for an Arcane Trickster; Throw Punch would be a nice bonus thematically but isn't really required.


If you can find a way to get access to blood crow strike, that's what you're really going to want.

I know monks can get it as a ki spell, but I don't know if there's a monk archetype with sneak attack.

Edit: It's also a pretty high level ki spell for monks, so probably not a great solution for you.

But if you can find a way to get access to it, it's pretty awesome. It basically allows you to do your normal flurry of blows/unarmed strike routine at range.


^Can't find a way to get Blood Crow Strike without a ridiculously long "dip" in something else.

But I prefer Vivisectionist Alchemist for the Sneak Attack class dip anyway, at least for an Int-based caster -- comparing the options:

Snakebite Striker Brawler 1: Brawler’s Cunning (doesn't help if you are an Int-based caster), Sneak Attack +1d6 (replaces Martial Flexibility which WOULD have been useful), Martial Training (doesn't help much), Unarmed Strike, 2 more hit points, +1 or +1/4 more BAB depending upon whether you are using Fractional Base Bonuses, and better weapon and armor proficiency (although Arcane Armor Training is needed to make good use of the latter).
Vivisectionist Alchemist 1: Alchemy, Sneak Attack +1d6 (replaces Bomb 1d6 which wouldn't have been useful anyway), Brew Potion, Nutagen, Throw anything -- ALL of these are potentially useful to you no matter what kind of caster you are, although Alchemy is best if you are an Int-based caster).

Now if you were using the Thought Thief archetype of Arcane Trickster (found part way down here), Snakebite Striker might be the way to go for your Sneak Attack dip, since the only damaging cantrip that Psychic has is Telekinetic Projectile, which uses a normal ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack, so Throw Punch would have no disadvantage relative to it (except for doing marginally less damage) and would actually become a decent alternative to have in situations where you couldn't use Telekinetic Projectile (or if you didn't want to use one of your limited Cantrips Known for that).

One other thing to keep in mind is that for Throw Punch to be good, you will need Weapon Finesse so that it isn't Strength-dependent (since you will need to invest in Dexterity for ranged touch attacks to be good), because Throw Punch is considered melee even though it is at range.


Earlier, I wrote:
Can't find a way to get Blood Crow Strike without a ridiculously long "dip" in something else. {. . .}

I just noticed a loophole in the Arcane Trickster prestige class text: Under Spells per Day in the class table it says "+1 level of existing class", not "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class"; and under Spells per Day in the class text it says "When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class" not "When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class". This means that technically, you could just dip 3 levels in both an appropriate arcane casting class and a Sneak Attack class, and have your main spellcasting class (the one that you progress with the prestige class) be divine! Blood Crow Strike is on the Cleric/Oracle spell list as a 4th level spell (and thereby technically also Warpriest, but that's 6/9 spellcasting, so you don't want that for your main class). I'll use Cleric below, since it gets you each level of spells 1 level earlier, and doesn't have so many juicy class features that you would be missing out on as Oracle does.

Your problem with this is that you aren't going to be able to have much of a Flurry of Blows, and in addition, Blood Crow Strike takes 1 round to cast, so it's going to be hard to use it to get off a Sneak Attack. So I'll set that aside. But I still like the idea of a Divine Trickster as described above, so I'll go into more details below.

Note that if the Equipment Trick (Sunrod) method is allowed for qualifying for the 2nd level arcane spell by way of boosting Light to 2nd level (Equipment Trick (Sunrod) says "The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes"). This reduces your required dip in Sorcerer or Wizard to just 1 level. And as always, with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat, you need either 1 level of Sneak Attack class, or none if you are allowed to use VMC Rogue and willing to wait a bit before entry. Note that since you will have both arcane and divine spellcasting, "wait a bit" could mean going into Mystic Theurge (since this requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells of each type, this doesn't remove the requirement for Equipment Trick (Sunrod) if you are allowed to use it to meet the 2nd level arcane spellcasting requirement, or for 3 levels of Wizard or 4 levels of Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue if you aren't).

Another thing to note is that if you AREN'T allowed to use Equipment Trick (Sunrod) as above, then you need an equally large total dip into non-divine-spellcasting classes with 3 levels of Wizard and 1 level of whatever Sneak Attack class or with 4 levels of Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue.

So here are the best options I can think of for entry into what is effectively Divine Trickster:

    • If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) IS allowed for use as above AND VMC Rogue IS allowed AND you are willing to wait a bit before starting Arcane Trickster: Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Equipment Trick (Sunrod) (both classes have Light and thus can benefit)/Mystic Theurge 5/VMC Rogue (grants +1d6 Sneak Attack at 7th level)/retrain some other feat to Accomplished Sneak Attacker/Arcane Trickster 10 (progress Cleric spellcasting)/Mystic Theurge rest of the way.
    • If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) IS allowed for use as above AND (VMC Rogue IS NOT allowed OR you are not willing to wait a bit before starting Arcane Trickster): Cleric 1 with Magical Knack/Sneak Attack Class 1/Wizard 1/Equipment Trick (Sunrod) (both classes have Light and thus can benefit)/Mystic Theurge 2 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker/Arcane Trickster 10 (progress Cleric spellcasting)/Mystic Theurge rest of the way.
    • If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) IS NOT allowed for use as above AND VMC Rogue IS allowed AND you are willing to wait a bit before starting Arcane Trickster: Cleric 3 with Magical Knack/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 1/VMC Rogue (grants +1d6 Sneak Attack at 7th level)/retrain some other feat to Accomplished Sneak Attacker/Arcane Trickster 10 (progress Cleric spellcasting)/Mystic Theurge rest of the way.
    • If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) IS NOT allowed for use as above AND VMC Rogue IS allowed AND (VMC Rogue IS NOT allowed OR you are not willing to wait a bit before starting Arcane Trickster), option #1: Cleric 3 with Magical Knack/Sneak Attack Class 1/Wizard 3 with Accomplished Sneak Attacker/Arcane Trickster 10 (progress Cleric spellcasting)/Mystic Theurge rest of the way.
    • If Equipment Trick (Sunrod) IS NOT allowed for use as above AND VMC Rogue IS allowed AND (VMC Rogue IS NOT allowed OR you are not willing to wait a bit before starting Arcane Trickster), option #2: Cleric 3 with Magical Knack/Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue 4 (this is both your arcane spellcasting dip and your Sneak Attack dip, and gets you the 3rd level version of Rogue's Finesse if you are allowed to use Unchained Rogue) with Accomplished Sneak Attacker/Arcane Trickster 10 (progress Cleric spellcasting)/Cleric or Mystic Theurge rest of the way.

Use of VMC Rogue is optional (although it will improve your Sneak Attack even if you don't want to wait for it to kick in), but you really need Equipment Trick (Sunrod) to be usable for meeting the 2nd level spell requirement for at least your arcane spellcasting to make this good. You really need the Magical Knack trait to offset caster level delay except in the very first option, which only delays your Cleric caster level progression by 1. Your Sneak Attack class dip can be anything that gives +1d6 Sneak Attack at 1st level, except that it must not be Rogue if you are going to (and are allowed to) use VMC Rogue, or must be Rogue if you want your to make your Sneak Attack Class and arcane spellcasting dips be the same class.

In the unlikely event I get to be a GM (not as long as this pandemic is going on and I have to work ~52 hours per week, mostly in the coronavirus testing lab), the above options (even the less optimal ones -- just compensate by adding levels) sound fun for creating an antagonist character. (If I were GM, my house rules would only allow Equipment Trick (Sunrod) to be used as above for worshippers of deities whose Domains/Subdomains include Sun, Light, or Day, but worshippers of other deities would get other options to accomplish the same purpose; and VMC would be replaced by a backport of Pathfinder 2nd Edition's class archetypes.)


@UAE: 4 levels is a lot to dip, and equipment trick (sunrod) is unlikely to fly IMO. Also I've seen posters develop rabies when your point about arcane trickster advancing non-arcane spellcasting is brought up; some GMs might think likewise.

Wouldn't it be easier to take some class which can get some sneak attack and/or a decent unarmed attack routine and find a way to get blood crow strike and/or mage hand on their class list? There's several ways to do either.


^Well, Wizard could take the Arcane Discovery Faith Magic to get Blood Crow Strike(*, and could even get some Sneak Attack with VMC Rogue, but will have a lousy Unarmed Strike (even if you somehow buff it to a decent amount, your low BAB will limit you to at most 2 attacks, or 3 if Hasted). And you need to be able to cast 6th level spells (meaning Wizard 11 or Sorcerer 12 if no Sneak Attack Class dip, otherwise 1 higher for each) to use this with Blood Crow Strike, and you can only use it once per day (with your lousy Unarmed Strike).

(*)When I posted earlier I thought you had to have a certain high number of Wizard levels, but on rereading you just need Wizard spellcasting of high enough level, even if mainly progressed by prestige classes.

My previous post was more inspired by thinking that a Divine Trickster of (for instance) Norgorber would make an interesting adversary. Although your comment about posters developing rabies now makes me think a Divine Trickster of Urgathoa might be interesting to create . . . .


Rical wrote:
yeah just missing one word... whelp guess ill just go alchemist Vivi

My preferred path for being a magic thief is

Half Elf, Arcane Training
Level1, Fighter1: Precise Shot, BAB+1
2F1Ninja1: Sneak Attack 1d6, Poison
3F1N2: Ki Pool, Ninja Vanishing Trick, Extra Trick, Rogue Talent: False Attacker, BAB+2

Arcane Training lets you use magic wands as if you had a half-level in some class. I like Arcanist, which gives you access to any Sorcer or Wizard Wand. I like those Ranged Touch Attack Wands like Finger of Cold and Scorching Ray.

With Ninja Vanishing Trick, you can turn Invisible for 1 round. I would use my first round to find a nice hidy-hole to shoot from. Normally you break Stealth when you shoot from hiding unless you can make a Stealth Check opposed by Perception, and the sniper gets a -20. But False Attacker lets you make a straight-up Bluff vs. Perception as a Swift Action, and if that works, you keep in Stealth without having to make your Stealth check at -20. That means you should be able to keep shooting your Scorching Rays every round, making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC that lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. Just try saying that out loud without your face splitting open in an evil grin!

From there, you can totally just go with Vivisectionist Alchemist. You should probably also take Vital Strike Feats for some extra punch to your Scorching Ray in addition to all that Sneak Attack Damage.

You could use an Orc Hornbow instead of Wand of Scorching Ray, Half Elves can learn an Exotic Weapon as an Alternate Racial Trait. Then you could dip a level in Ranger and use a Wand of Gravity Bow, and then also cast Enlarge Person. An Orc Hornbow does 2d6 Damage, and with the 2 Size Increases, that ups it to 4d6. You can do Vivisectionist from there, or you could do Grenadier Alchemist and shoot Exploding Arrows.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
You should probably also take Vital Strike Feats for some extra punch to your Scorching Ray

I'd never heard of Vital Strike with spells before. It sounds awesome (40d6 Polar Ray, anyone?) A ray is indeed a weapon, but VS needs an Attack Action. Is casting a ray spell an attack action? I can see it working with held touch spells, though.


won't work to use held touch spells, well would work -but only the hand damage would be double, so if touch 0 damageX2 and if fist then unarmed strike damage X 2 + rest.
from Vital strike:
" Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses"
if you look up the delivering of touch spells in the combat section you'll see that the attack with an unarmed strike + spell is basically an unarmed (weapon) strike with added spell to it. the spell is not the weapon.

unless you use a touch attack WEAPON spell. like flame blade.


Mudfoot wrote:
Is casting a ray spell an attack action?

No. Casting a spell uses the "cast a spell" action, which is seperate from the "attack" action. The touch attack of a held touch spell is a special standard action (see this FAQ) and not the attack action. It's possible to use an unarmed strike to deliver a held touch spell, and one could use the attack action for that, but only unarmed strike base damage would be multiplied by Vital Strike.

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