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One of the huge themes that I see in posts in the summoner class topic, is people who are underwhelmed by the power of the eidolon as written. There are differing opinions as to the issues that make it underpowered, I have heard people asking to give it a separate health pool, or maybe access to skill feats, or maybe just more customization options generally. I agree that some more power needs to be given to the eidolon, and I think the underlying problem that all of these concerns stem from is the fact that the Summoner is a spellcasting class at all.
I know that might be a hard pill to swallow, but hear me out here. I don't think that summoners should not have access to magic, I just think that summoners should not be required to be spell casters, to the detriment of their primary ability. Basically I just want more options. I want to be able to build a viable summoner where my PC and my Eidolon fight side by side on the front line. I want to be able to build a viable summoner where combat is based around the synthesis ability, and merging with my Eidolon has a meaningful effect on combat. I want to be able to build a viable summoner where my PC is a healer in the back while my Eidolon keeps guards them from being approached. And certainly, I want to be able to build a viable spellcaster Summoner, like the one we have now, but I don't want to be required to build that.
The way the Summoner works right now, you have a PC who is a decent spell caster, paired with an cookie cutter eidolon which is a mediocre melee fighter. You can use all of your feats to make the eidolon a bit less cookie cutter and a bit better in combat, but considering that the eidolon is the defining feature of the class, it feels bad that it is overshadowed by the PC's spell casting ability.
The underlying problem there, as I see it, is that in order to keep a spellcasting class balanced, all of its other abilities have to be toned down somewhat. This obviously makes perfect sense, but the problem is that the core identity of the summoner is not spell casting, it is the Eidolon, or at least it should be. I know that is debatable and subjective, and that is what this thread is for, but here is my justification. If you are going to pick the summoner class, why do you pick it? Because you want an Eidolon. Certainly you might pick it because you want a spellcaster, but you would never pick it only because you want a spellcaster, because summoner is just a worse spellcaster than the dedicated casting classes.
So if you pick summoner, you are picking it because you want an Eidolon. You are essentially just getting the spellcasting part as an extra, which is not necessarily a problem in it self, but it means that you are giving up power of your primary ability, and customization of you character as a whole, to a feature that you did not have a choice in.
So my solution is, ditch spellcasting a default ability. Now, to keep the class balanced, the eidolon can be made much more powerful, and much more customizable. Make this customization of the eidolon not dependent on class feats. That way, a character is free to use their class feats for something else like, effective synthesis combat, or back line healing, or multiclassing to a spellcaster, or multiclassing to a combat character.
Overall this makes the class so much more customizable and so much more interesting. If you don't this is necessary, here is an example of how trying to customize a character goes right now:
The first character concept I came up with when I read the playtest material was a swashbuckler pirate who has an eidolon he can ride like a speedboat. This is a really cool concept, but with the way the rules are written right now, it is basically an impossible build. The problem arises from the fact that you simply do not have enough feats to take the swashbuckler archetype, and take any meaningful customization of the eidolon. Here is the summoner feats required for the build:
1: free choice
2: swashbuckler dedication
4: amphibious evolution for swim speed
6: hulking evolution for riding
8: finally can start taking swashbuckler feats
So basically, the build is unviable until 8th level or higher, and even then it feels like you are leaving a lot of really key eidolon customization on the table, just because you have to use your feats on the multiclass. Furthermore, my pirate is a spellcaster, which is something that I did not want, and that does not make sense narratively.
I understand that the class is based of of the first edition one and that my proposal would be a big shift away from that. I also understand that what I am proposing makes it not feel that much like a "summoner" in the sense that it actually summons things, but I think the class already doesn't feel like it is primarily a summoner, so it is not a big loss to make it less like one. I think the most important thing is to make a class that feels genuinely different from everything else, and that feels genuinely good to play, and I think my proposal would improve those aspects, even if it does stray a bit from the original concept.
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While a non-spellcasting variant of the Summoner would be neat and fun, and totally awesome, at this time I dont see it as a likely option for the core Summoner release.
Would a variant that traded Spellcasting for a load of bonus Evolution feats (or some other Eidolon benefit) be cool? Sure would - but that concept is likely to trap for the core target audience of new players who might not get the more advanced build needed to make the Summoner less of a "dead weight" if they don't have the significant personal power bump associated with spellcasting.
So... as a variant option? Sure.
As the core form of the class? Eh...
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The argument of dropping spellcasting is one that I've seen mentioned a couple times, and while I personally disagree that it's a good way to go, I can definitely understand why others would like to go that direction.
The part about having to wait for your build to come online is kinda strange to me though. Every class has to wait, depending on what your vision is. I had an idea for a wizard that used and infused magic into a bow, and it didn't actually come online until like 10th or 12th level, and hardly had 2 wizard feats to rub together (this has changed slightly since the addition of the Magus playtest, but that's a different kettle of fish).
Plus, on the subject of having abilities that don't fit the vision, that also happens with lots of builds. If I wanted to make a buff investigator luchador, I'd likely have to wait awhile to get that to work properly, and on top of that would have lots of very investigator-esqe abilities that don't fit. Either I live with it, or use a different class as a base.
I definitely agree that it'd be nice to enable a more combat involved summoner, but there's always multiclass feats for that.
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I 100% disagree. If YOU want spellcasting, just multiclass a spellcaster! You get more spell points and up to 8th level! Why, from a DESIGN perspective, would you weaken its ONE SCHTICK for spellcasting when you can just sacrifice a few feats for it? Allow those of us who don't want spellcasting to have this option.While a non-spellcasting variant of the Summoner would be neat and fun, and totally awesome, at this time I dont see it as a likely option for the core Summoner release.
Would a variant that traded Spellcasting for a load of bonus Evolution feats (or some other Eidolon benefit) be cool? Sure would - but that concept is likely to trap for the core target audience of new players who might not get the more advanced build needed to make the Summoner less of a "dead weight" if they don't have the significant personal power bump associated with spellcasting.
So... as a variant option? Sure.
As the core form of the class? Eh...
You understand the concept of diminishing returns, right?
The Eidolon can't get significantly more powerful than it already is without stepping on martial classes toes - you aren't going to get the massive power boost you're imagining by giving up spellcasting.
You're looking at a minor boost in power, and maybe a moderate increase in resources at best.
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Which multiclass feats effect the Eidolon???
I definitely agree that it'd be nice to enable a more combat involved summoner, but there's always multiclass feats for that.
Emphasis mine.
While I think allowing the eidolon to take archetypes is actually one of the neater ideas to come out of these forums, that wasn't what Kirin was talking about.
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Newsflash! Once you take away spellcasting, the summoner BECOMES a martial!
The gap between where they are now and a full Martial is much smaller than you choose to believe.
And closing that gap is ALL you "buy" by giving up spellcasting - its not going to be the boost you seem to portray it as.
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Which multiclass feats effect the Eidolon???The argument of dropping spellcasting is one that I've seen mentioned a couple times, and while I personally disagree that it's a good way to go, I can definitely understand why others would like to go that direction.
The part about having to wait for your build to come online is kinda strange to me though. Every class has to wait, depending on what your vision is. I had an idea for a wizard that used and infused magic into a bow, and it didn't actually come online until like 10th or 12th level, and hardly had 2 wizard feats to rub together (this has changed slightly since the addition of the Magus playtest, but that's a different kettle of fish).
Plus, on the subject of having abilities that don't fit the vision, that also happens with lots of builds. If I wanted to make a buff investigator luchador, I'd likely have to wait awhile to get that to work properly, and on top of that would have lots of very investigator-esqe abilities that don't fit. Either I live with it, or use a different class as a base.
I definitely agree that it'd be nice to enable a more combat involved summoner, but there's always multiclass feats for that.
None, as far as I'm aware. So it's a good thing I never said they did. I said that they would benefit the summoner, not the eidolon, because I was specifically referencing a summoner that joins his eidolon in combat, like OP said they wanted.
Newsflash! Once you take away spellcasting, the summoner BECOMES a martial!
The gap between where they are now and a full Martial is much smaller than you choose to believe.
And closing that gap is ALL you "buy" by giving up spellcasting - its not going to be the boost you seem to portray it as.
The math significantly betrays you.
If you want that gap spelled out; start with 18 str, allow them to use apex items, master in perception, allow for eidolon to multiclass.
And that's it.
Edit: And 1 of those (apex) won't show up till lvl 17+
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Newsflash! Once you take away spellcasting, the summoner BECOMES a martial!
The gap between where they are now and a full Martial is much smaller than you choose to believe.
And closing that gap is ALL you "buy" by giving up spellcasting - its not going to be the boost you seem to portray it as.
If you want that gap spelled out; start with 18 str, allow them to use apex items, master in perception, allow for eidolon to multiclass.
And that's it.
And hilariously, 18 str and apex items are already on everyone I've seens wishlist for the base class already.
The gap is tiny, and the Eidlon gets access to all sorts of unique abilities to go with it.
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The math of the summoner means you shouldn't put them in combat. They share MAP, get worse physical stats, far lower AC (AC of a caster)
You do not want them on the front lines.
Unless you do something like Multiclass champion and take Shield Block (and later Bastion), at which point you're on a road to providing your enemies no good choices when attacking you OR your Eidolon.
Not all builds are equally vulnerable up close.
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ADDENDUM- What do I mean by Eidolon customization?
I realize this is not clear in my original post, and it is very key to what I am asking for so let my clarify it here.
Right now, essentially all of the low level customization options for eidolons are combat focused. Here is the entire list of non combat customization options up to level 6:
lvl 1
sensory evolution: scent as an imprecise sense
synthesis: merge with your eidolon
unfettered eidolon: move outside 100 foot range (1min, focus)
dual studies: gain 2 skills
lvl 2
magical evolution: cast 2 cantrips
lvl 4
alacritous evolution: move faster
amphibious evolution: breath water and swim
lvl 6
climbing evolution: climb
hulking evolution: ride
You can chose one from each level. If you chose one of these it means you are missing out on one of the combat ones. If you want to multiclass, you will get less. A couple of these are borderline useless (synthesis as written, sensory evolution).
Compare this to the abilities of a familiar at first level. It is a joke. Familiars can do so much actual useful stuff outside combat.
If I am going to take a class that's primary feature is that I get a massive intelligent magical companion, I want that massive intelligent magical companion to be able to do something other than punch people.
So I don't know exactly what abilities an Eidolon should have access to at first level, but here are some ideas:
faster movement
riding
climbing
swimming
good sense of smell
roleplay/social(remember this is an intelligent creature)
carry equipment
I am not asking for all of those abilities on every Eidolon. I am asking that Eidolons are useful out of combat, starting lvl 1, and that I get to make meaningful choices about how they are useful, which do not limit my other choices as a character.
I would love to hear what abilities you guys think an Eidolon should have.
Newsflash! Once you take away spellcasting, the summoner BECOMES a martial!
The gap between where they are now and a full Martial is much smaller than you choose to believe.
And closing that gap is ALL you "buy" by giving up spellcasting - its not going to be the boost you seem to portray it as.
The math significantly betrays you.
If you want that gap spelled out; start with 18 str, allow them to use apex items, master in perception, allow for eidolon to multiclass.
And that's it.
Edit: And 1 of those (apex) won't show up till lvl 17+
And I was somewhat wrong here.... the Champion and Monk don't get master in perception.
The math of the summoner means you shouldn't put them in combat. They share MAP, get worse physical stats, far lower AC (AC of a caster)
You do not want them on the front lines.
Who says they get worse physical stats? Just build it to have high strength and con. As for AC, take champion or sentinel archetype and you're in a better position than most. And you could quite easily use an ancestry feat for weapon familiarity to get a martial weapon on simple proficiency, which is better than nothing.
I am not asking for all of those abilities on every Eidolon. I am asking that Eidolons are useful out of combat, starting lvl 1, and that I get to make meaningful choices about how they are useful, which do not limit my other choices as a character.I would love to hear what abilities you guys think an Eidolon should have.
As a note, you need to be extremely careful here.
At level 1, Summoner + Eidolon likely has a 16 str and dex, and an 16-18 cha for the purpose of making skill checks.
They get to roll many checks twice before failing out of retrying them.
Very few other characters except maybe rogues with early Expert will be able to match the skill versatility of a Summoner at level 1 as it stands today, so expanding significantly here could result in a situation where the Summoner is the clear king of skills at low levels.
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They get at max 16 str. Same as Eidolon if you devoted points to it. But when do they get expert or master prof to either AC or attack?Who says they get worse physical stats? Just build it to have high strength and con. As for AC, take champion or sentinel archetype and you're in a better position than most. And you could quite easily use an ancestry feat for weapon familiarity to get a martial weapon on simple proficiency, which is better than nothing.The math of the summoner means you shouldn't put them in combat. They share MAP, get worse physical stats, far lower AC (AC of a caster)
You do not want them on the front lines.
Around the same level the poor alchemist gets them.
Edit: Except for 19th
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Which multiclass feats effect the Eidolon???
I definitely agree that it'd be nice to enable a more combat involved summoner, but there's always multiclass feats for that.Emphasis mine.
While I think allowing the eidolon to take archetypes is actually one of the neater ideas to come out of these forums, that wasn't what Kirin was talking about.
I recognize that it is called "Summoner", but don't let the name distract you from the core concept of the class. The name "summoner" is not key to the classes primary ability, the Eidolon. Personally I think the name should be changed to better reflect what the class actually is.
They get at max 16 str. Same as Eidolon if you devoted points to it. But when do they get expert or master prof to either AC or attack?
They don't need attack proficiency, they have an Eidolon specifically for that - and they're only behind by 2 if they do need to make an attack.
Archetypes are more than enough to make you survivable enough to participate (carefully) on the front line. Bastion with a Sturdy Shield is hard as nails to kill if they have the actions to support Blocking, in particular. And they always can get the +2 ac from reactive shield if needed.
Alchemist? Whats an alchemist? Never seen one played...They get at max 16 str. Same as Eidolon if you devoted points to it. But when do they get expert or master prof to either AC or attack?Who says they get worse physical stats? Just build it to have high strength and con. As for AC, take champion or sentinel archetype and you're in a better position than most. And you could quite easily use an ancestry feat for weapon familiarity to get a martial weapon on simple proficiency, which is better than nothing.The math of the summoner means you shouldn't put them in combat. They share MAP, get worse physical stats, far lower AC (AC of a caster)
You do not want them on the front lines.
Same level the poor alchemist gets them.
Edit: Except for 19th
Finally! I knew we'd agree on something eventually!
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They get at max 16 str. Same as Eidolon if you devoted points to it. But when do they get expert or master prof to either AC or attack?Who says they get worse physical stats? Just build it to have high strength and con. As for AC, take champion or sentinel archetype and you're in a better position than most. And you could quite easily use an ancestry feat for weapon familiarity to get a martial weapon on simple proficiency, which is better than nothing.The math of the summoner means you shouldn't put them in combat. They share MAP, get worse physical stats, far lower AC (AC of a caster)
You do not want them on the front lines.
Yeah I totally agree with you. I think that summoners should not necessarily be the skill monkey. That should be rebalanced somewhat. The abilities I want to see are ones that are related to the fact that the Eidolon is a magical beast. The abilities it has right now are just the abilities of a PC (making skill checks).
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It's honestly starting to sound like what would suit Verzen better is a monster Ancestry they can then make a martial class.
Why exactly are you on the front line if you dont expect to attack?
To be in the appropriate position to use my other relevant character abilities such as buffs or debuffs, protective abilities in the case of a champion multiclass, to provide healing via any number of abilities, or to deliver short range offensive effects of various sorts.
Maybe to use Aid and My reaction to give my Eidolon +2 to hit, at sufficient level.
Or he'll, maybe because that's just what I want to do with whatever character, because fun.
PF2E is not a game just supports anyone doing something to just make attacks.
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To you guys who are arguing about martial balance:
Leave the math up to the game designers. The game designers will be able to balance just about any concept, within reason. So I don't see the point of talking about the balance of a specific scenario.
If it is decided that the class should be spell based, the designers can balance it as such. If it is decided the class should be martial, the game designers will come up with some way to make it work well.
I think it is a bit silly to say any concept is unbalanced, because its a concept, not a game mechanic, and there is definitely some way to balance it.
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Lol. The reason I loved pf1 eidolon is that I felt like I was controlling a monster. I just want that feeling. Not op. But the feeling of it.
For example. Summon monster. The monsters I can summon are infinitely more interesting than the Eidolon atm. I want something with that feeling of summon monster but stronger and more viable since summoning is pretty weak atm.
You, as the player, need to bring this in how you "play" the character.
I'm not struggling in any capacity for my eidolon being unique and powerful at level 6-7, and my Summoner is more fun to play than my Cleric was by a significant margin. I have less magical capacity, but I get to participate in the game as a whole infinitely more.
If I wanted my Eidolon to be a "monster", I could have done that... but it'd have been done with a change in attitude and playstyle, not by significantly changing the class mechanics.
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Let me clarify my concept for how the Summoner would be balanced, because I don't think I did a good enough job.
I think that the Summoner should be balanced around the Eidolon. I think that the default status of a summoner if you were to play one that had no class feats, would be a completely ability free PC, and an Eidolon which is essentially a less powerful martial character, with some monstrous abilities.
Then, the class feats are what give your PC abilities. There would be a couple of feat trees, maybe one for synthesis, and one for actual summoning spells that let you get more than just the eidolon, and spells to buff your summons. You could also just chose to use your class feats for multiclassing, which would let you be an effective martial character alongside your Eidolon, or a spell caster, or whatever you want.
I too feel that summoner should get cantrips and focus spells, and thats about it. Move the rest of the power to the eidolon, give it actual combat feats, not just senses and movement types. That's what I would personally prefer.
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To you guys who are arguing about martial balance:
Leave the math up to the game designers. The game designers will be able to balance just about any concept, within reason. So I don't see the point of talking about the balance of a specific scenario.
If it is decided that the class should be spell based, the designers can balance it as such. If it is decided the class should be martial, the game designers will come up with some way to make it work well.
I think it is a bit silly to say any concept is unbalanced, because its a concept, not a game mechanic, and there is definitely some way to balance it.
Experience from playing with P1 Summoners, and the people on the playtest currently asking for a return to that form.
Also Verzen has outright stated they want the Eidolon to be stronger than martials.
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Yeah I did not see Verzen say he wants them to be stronger than martials. I'm not sure where you got that.
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Yeah I did not see Verzen say he wants them to be stronger than martials. I'm not sure where you got that.
Its the general historical disregard for "parity" in other posts across the board.
A general desire for Eidolons to have access to abilities taken straight out of the Bestiary, which players are generally denied, without concern for whether that causes balance issues between classes.
He may not have said that specifically, but theres been a general feeling to Verzens posts that what they want is something that is equivalent to a Martial, with all the benefits of having a second body.
Early on Verzen was also a proponent of abilities at low levels like unrestricted elemental damage and weaknesses, which are problematic for a variety of balance reasons.
I dont think Rysky was attempting to misrepresent anyone, so much as drawing a conclusion from a range of posts since the beginning of the playtest.
I dont think Verzen is out to make the class OP, but I do think that would be the result of a number of Verzens earlier proposals.
The part about having to wait for your build to come online is kinda strange to me though. Every class has to wait, depending on what your vision is. I had an idea for a wizard that used and infused magic into a bow, and it didn't actually come online until like 10th or 12th level, and hardly had 2 wizard feats to rub together (this has changed slightly since the addition of the Magus playtest, but that's a different kettle of fish).Plus, on the subject of having abilities that don't fit the vision, that also happens with lots of builds. If I wanted to make a buff investigator luchador, I'd likely have to wait awhile to get that to work properly, and on top of that would have lots of very investigator-esqe abilities that don't fit. Either I live with it, or use a different class as a base.
Yeah I was probably unclear here. The problem I have is not that it takes to long to make this work. It is that it never really ends up working. With the current system, the amount of power in the spell system means that you can not build an effective martial Summoner. I think you should be able to build a martial summoner because that feels like it is perfectly in line with the class's concept.
Also I have a problem with how long it takes Eidolons to get abilities. It is insane to me that you have to be level 6 before you can ride the massive magical beast you have a psychic linking to.
Obviously that is subjective, but I think it would make the class way more interesting if the Eidolons were more useful outside of punching people.