Venture-Captain, Washington—Seattle
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I have tried to get on to survey monkey and it says the survey is closed. Will the survey open back up before the voting ends?
The blog text contains the wrong survey link.
See the comments further up in the thread.Use this - https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/PMJXQDY
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I think Avor Stelek's agenda makes the most sense in terms of getting the Society on a better footing after the whole Scoured Stars affair. A lot of Starfinder agents are finding themselves in trouble (see adventures like 1-30, Survivor's Salvation), with PTSD or other issues. Even senior leadership has needed interventions.
While I do agree that Tara would be the most interesting, narratively, none of my characters would ever vote for her (okay, Dragonbot totally would, if Dragonbot voted, but Dragonbot thinks that democracy is for losers).
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As a player, the only care I have is that the morlamaw is not elected. I am not a fan of them as a playable race.
As this character has brought up in the rp thread, there was not nearly enough time for any morlamaw to gain enough knowledge to be qualified for the position. As a character that values intelligence and knowledge, it is a deal breaker. With more time this argument will be void. But, at the moment, it remains a point.
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That is actually a perfect example of the logical fallacy commonly referred to as a "straw man" argument. The "straw man" is the experience that you argued. I did not argue against Soren's experience. I argued against any morlamaw's ability to gain enough knowledge about the Starfinders and the Pathfinders from whence the inspiration came. Therefore arguing that morlamaw, having only known about the existence of the Society for less than two years, could not have enough context to truly understand everything that the Starfinders have been and are presently. Maybe if they dedicated all of that time for research...maybe.
But Soren couldn't have as they have achieved that much reputation. And in order to achieve that much reputation, Soren had to have gone on many missions. Plus, there is the added fact that Soren is a musician. Which also takes a considerable time of one's life.
For clarity, I am arguing that Soren is currently unqualified. In the future, 100% possible to be qualified.
Soren has gone on plenty of Starfinder missions so therefore he isn't qualified to lead Starfinders is not the winning argument you think it is.
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You're claiming he's unqualified and inexperienced based on the fact of what he is rather than what he's done... despite the fact he and the other three candidates had to go on numerous missions and greatly benefit the society in order to be considered for this position in the first place. He's as qualified/experienced as the other three.
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What it appears is that as someone who does not care for froopy space walri, that because of the racial background of one of the candidates they are therefore not eligible.
A very definite cross of the IC/OOC divide, without recognizing and realizing it.
I've since obtained a possiblity to find out about the candidates (via play). I am curious to see how their approaches, desires, and platforms present themselves, and who will be recommended/voted for...
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In regards to how much knowledge a morlamaw could have accumulated regarding the Society, it is important to remember that the morlamaw who took up residence in the abandoned lodge where we first encountered them had access to a number of learning tools which enabled them to learn a great deal about the Society and the Pact Worlds in general before we made first contact.
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The thing that makes me sad about this set-up is that I won't be able to vote on it due to RL scheduling concerns.
Well, I hope we get someone who doesn't make SFS undesirable to play....
:(
Please check your email, Wei Ji. :)
Hmm
Sounds like this has already been handled, but just in case more options are needed: I would definitely run this on roll20 if needed. (I've already got a table built from a previous run!) PM me if this helps, and we can try and sort out a time.
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A very definite cross of the IC/OOC divide, without recognizing and realizing it.
...just be honest about it....
As a player, the only care I have is that the morlamaw is not elected. I am not a fan of them as a playable race.
I was honest for this specific reason. If you decide to not consider my character's in-game reason valid because of my clearly stated bias, that's fine. It doesn't bother me in the least.
..." I'm not voting for him because Morlamaw." Not " I'm not voting for him because not qualified." That right there is a straw man.
Incorrect. That kind of argument would be more akin to an ad hominem fallacy. Which, would be a great criticism if I was attacking him for having a quality of being a morlamaw.
Admittedly my wording was a bit too wide stroke in that I used "any morlamaw". That was a fault of mine as Zach Davis pointed out, in the only post that actually argued against my point of the potential knowledge of morlamaws about the society.
In regards to how much knowledge a morlamaw could have accumulated regarding the Society, it is important to remember that the morlamaw who took up residence in the abandoned lodge where we first encountered them had access to a number of learning tools which enabled them to learn a great deal about the Society and the Pact Worlds in general before we made first contact.
This is a fantastic counter to my point. If Soren was one of those few morlamaw he might have even more knowledge about the society than the other candidates. Well played Zach.
However...
In the situation that Soren was one of those morlamaw, he'd have another thing he'd have to overcome. The fact that he was a part of the cult that killed Starfinder agents. Something I'm sure the surviving Manta Corps is not soon going to forget.
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(Suddenly has this vision of a late entry candidate to the race: An uplifted Scarecrow that somehow survived the Gap and made it onto Absalom. "I may not have a brain . . but I have an idea.")
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This is a fantastic counter to my point. If Soren was one of those few morlamaw he might have even more knowledge about the society than the other candidates. Well played Zach.However...
In the situation that Soren was one of those morlamaw, he'd have another thing he'd have to overcome. The fact that he was a part of the cult that killed Starfinder agents. Something I'm sure the surviving Manta Corps is not soon going to forget.
Likewise uncertain is that they were an active participant in crimes against the Starfinder Society -- as it was indicated pretty readily that while said cult was influential it was not the all-encompassing mass one might suspect. Otherwise, they would determinedly NOT have been allowed to join the Starfinder Society in the first place (no matter how desperate the Society was).
If the concern is the Manta Corps and continued future dealings with same, then wouldn't it be better to have a reconcilation of the matter than simply assuming the worst? In addition, to even be considered for such a post, one must amass quite the Society experience.
It becomes nearly a chicken and the egg thing, but the egg could be considered 'Moralmaw acceptance' and then move forward from there.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Belmont
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For me personally, Tara wanting to pick a fight with the jinsuls and Avor wanting to the Wayfinders/Dataphiles/Exoguardians to 'take a back seat' are both deal breakers for a First Seeker. Ehu, Soren, or find a fifth candidate :)
Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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It's few weeks since I run this, but Sorren and Ehu ended up as my favourite candidates. Ehu REALLY benefits from scenario. As in its kinda unfair he is presented as "He doesn't yet have concrete goal but is looking one for in Athaeum" since what you end up finding in Athaeum during the scenario is really interesting. Meanwhile with other options, you just learn about their hobbies or what are their bad sides.
Scenario ended up making Ehu end up as my top choice. Soren's goal of expanding lodges in near space and vast is interesting, but
The other two choices... Well, party I run game did good job of seperating their pc and player opinions(would be kinda weird though if people voted based on pc opinion), but they did respect Stelek's focus on training new agents and taking care of current agents.
Tara Nova on other hand... Feels like they treat society as paramilitary organization rather than as group of archelogists and while they are advertised as "The media specialist who we might need to counter the propaganda", her attitude is proving the smear campaign about Starfinder Society being group of paramilitary organization with big guns claiming to be scholars right :P
I don't feel too good about my top choice's chances though :'D Besides Sorren having the "omg morlamaw" factor to his side(and not really having any notable bad side to him as written in scenario, unless you just don't like waiting in lines), Ehu is really most archetypical kasatha you can imagine: Serious and dignified warrior scholar solarian from Idari who worships Talavet. I personally love that, but I can see lot of people being like "Eh, thats kinda standard".(which isn't really bad thing in my view, but eh)
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To accompany an in-character endorsement below, here are some out of character thoughts:
Calder is a safe, non-controversial choice that wins friends and leaves the Society in a good position to weather media furor.
Avor is a 'non-candidate' outsider, arguably unsuitable for *elected* office (see 'sortition'); he'd probably be great if power were assigned randomly from the pool of all qualified to wield it, but not having a plan when seeking power is radioactive.
Tara is sure *portrayed* as a toxic, warmongering thug; if you want to *sunset* the campaign because the entire Society reaches its Infamy cap, here's your choice. That said, the depiction in the scenario does not seem *completely* fair in light of the biography. On the other, other hand, nothing about a 'G' in one's avowed alignment excludes one from being a xenophobic bigot.
Ehu is a perfectly acceptable candidate, that I choose not to opt for as a player because I prefer to stay away from magical mystery libraries and hedge toward 'science fiction' Clarketech. Your mileage may vary, and no one gets to tell you what's fun for your game (except things that are meta-antisocial; those are bad). As for a non-meta concern with Ehu, rerunning 1-11 this weekend:
<sarcasm> That's really going to win powerful friends and influence powerful people.
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After much consideration of what the Society is, has been, and may yet become, I endorse the expansionist platform of Calder Soren.
Reclamation of forward bases of operation holds forth the tantalizing prospect that the Society may once more be known as the premiere agents of exploration and discovery in the Pact Worlds.
This noble goal is an object refutation of the naysayers and talking heads who even now dismiss us as opportunists, criminals, ethno-zealots, and unlawful combatants.
We challenge the unknown, stalwart and unafraid. We push the frontiers of known space ever farther. We extend our hand in friendship to all we meet, and defend ourselves when dialogue fails. We sacrifice our lives and livelihoods for these ideals, and we offer the knowledge and insight we garner to any Pact signatory that so desires it.
Calder Soren is a candidate of principle, and will be the First Seeker the Society needs to demonstrate it is a first-rate asset to the sapients of the Pact Worlds.
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Venture-Agent, Finland—Tampere
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Uh, wait what?
Like, I agree with most of things you said, Calder Sorren is solid non offensive choice, Avor Stelek is probably best as what he currently is and might do harm when elected, Tara Nova feels like she would just make society more infamous, but where the heck you got that idea for Ehu?
...Like, I can't help but think that "read between the lines" thing sounds like conspiracy theory, Veskarium is never mentioned in the entire scenario
Uh, it's 10 days early and the survey appears to be closed?
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Let's see...
Tara Nova represents an active betrayal of what I joined the Starfinders for. Her stating goal is to make the Starfinders into the very thing our detractors claim we are, a rogue army. She is also distinctly hung up on policing the galaxy and seeking revenge against the Jinsul. You'll notice neither of those things is 'exploring' or ' investigating'. Her goals are... okay and some are even laudable, but they simply aren't what the Society is for. The Starfinders would be better served by her establishing her own organization rather than taking the Starfinders vastly off course.
Calder Soren is too stodgy and bureaucratic. The fact that the first thing that had to be done when arriving at his campaign headquarters was walk through a line is not a good sign, cultural importance aside. He is not a good fit for the average Starfinder disposition. Also the expansionist stance means nothing without effective manpower to back it up. Manpower I doubt we have. (Nevermind the fact that his species is heavily coded as British and I have little interest in playing an active role is what could essentially be British Imperialism, if not physically, then culturally)
Ehu Hadif is myopic but it at least he is staying true to the core of the Society
Avor Stelek is also myopic but is the best option of the four as he is actively invested in practical training and taking care of the Society's agents. He would be the best choice for both recovering from the Scoured Stars and warding off certain unfriendly attentions I'm sure most of you had noticed by now.
The goals of the others sound like things more appropriate to faction goals than a guiding principle for the entire organization. Stelek has my vote and I am actively opposed to Nova. I'll not abandon the Society if she is elected, but I'll definitely be weathering her aggressive goals and seeking to perform damage control wherever possible.
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Nevermind the fact that his species is heavily coded as British and I have little interest in playing an active role is what could essentially be British Imperialism, if not physically, then culturally
Can you elaborate on that? I've played their scenario (and prepped to GM it, although the game fell apart at the table) and there were no British cultural cues that I caught. Likewise, I've seen a few Morlamaw PCs in my time, and none have been "Britsh," in accent or portrayal.
Not doubting you or anything - just curious. Maybe it's a Regional thing.|
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Can you elaborate on that? I've played their scenario (and prepped to GM it, although the game fell apart at the table) and there were no British cultural cues that I caught. Likewise, I've seen a few Morlamaw PCs in my time, and none have been "Britsh," in accent or portrayal.
Not doubting you or anything - just curious. Maybe it's a Regional thing.
Mostly the stodginess, the fact that 'queueing' is literally a massively important cultural touchstone for them and the fact that the people at Paizo decided the first character of their species that could serve as an influential NPC and touchstone for most player character is LITERALLY A WALRUS JOHN LENNON. On top of that, walruses have pretty regularly used an unfavorable comparison to specific stereotypes of brits.
I might have spoken a bit hastily there by saying 'heavily' but I feel my point stands.
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Un, weren’t these player characters? Meaning the player gave their Morlamaw tea shades, not Paizo?
(Tangent, I wear tea shades and I’m not British, just sensitive to light)
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Mostly the stodginess, the fact that 'queueing' is literally a massively important cultural touchstone for them and the fact that the people at Paizo decided the first character of their species that could serve as an influential NPC and touchstone for most player character is LITERALLY A WALRUS JOHN LENNON. On top of that, walruses have pretty regularly used an unfavorable comparison to specific stereotypes of brits.
I thought he was based physically on the Dude.
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Un, weren’t these player characters? Meaning the player gave their Morlamaw tea shades, not Paizo?
(Tangent, I wear tea shades and I’m not British, just sensitive to light)
I'm pretty sure the John Lennon thing was a deliberate choice. Also, the fact that he was originally a player character is not as important as the fact that he made it through Paizo's vetting process for this position. They have given him a spotlight and tacit endorsement.
Regardless, this is all my read on the coding and I am more than happy to walk back my original post's seeming certainty.
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I'm pretty sure the John Lennon thing was a deliberate choice.
Even if that was Paizo's choice, it is unclear to me what you are opposed to about it. Yes, John Lennon was British, but he was hardly the model of stodgy British imperialism. So the artistic choice seems to be a signal in the opposite direction of what you are concerned about, not a reinforcement of it.
Unless, of course, the concern is a British Invasion of the musical variety. (Frankly, the least objectionable form of British cultural imperialism)
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I still have to disagree on stelek. While his focus on training and protection of starfinder agents is admirable, his approach is extremely isolationist. Don't forget it took many allies for us to be able to rebuild. Allies make us stronger and stelek is willing to cut ties if the deal so much as looks funny. Plus he's wanting to downsize both the Wayfinders and the Dataphiles, the two most exploration heavy factions and the heart of the society as an exploratory organization. That means while not as overtly aggressive as Tara Nova, he too is trying to shift the society into a paramilitary organization. Personally I think there aren't enough wayfinder missions.
That's entirely fair, but the fallout from Stelek's policies are ones we can recover from if they go wrong, he is nowhere near equivalent to Tara Nova's wrong-headed plans. I am honestly not a fan of any of them and their positions but Stelek is the least of the problematic ones in my mind. I'd frankly prefer a middle ground of everyone except for Tara Nova.
We need to expand and reclaim lost ground while still performing the duties that should define the Society, but only as we get the ready manpower to properly execute those duties, defend our claims and our people. Stelek looks to be the one that suits the first steps of that and provide a strong foundation for future First Seekers to build on in the future and take us in a more adventurous direction.
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I'm pretty sure the John Lennon thing was a deliberate choice.Even if that was Paizo's choice, it is unclear to me what you are opposed to about it. Yes, John Lennon was British, but he was hardly the model of stodgy British imperialism. So the artistic choice seems to be a signal in the opposite direction of what you are concerned about, not a reinforcement of it.
Unless, of course, the concern is a British Invasion of the musical variety. (Frankly, the least objectionable form of British cultural imperialism)
Founder Effect
Much like how JRR Tolkien's dwarves and elves defined how they were presented in generations of fantasy media, I feel that the pattern is on the cusp of being established for our space walruses. They don't have much of an associated identity for most players as far as I know. People may begin drawing on other British-ism for them and while that is a perfectly legitimate method of character creation, I'd rather not be inundated by such things.
Once again this was a deciding factor in for three candidates that were just about equal for me, so it is not nearly as strong an objection as it might first appear. I'm more concerned about his more lawful bent considering Starfinders tend towards neutral and chaotic in my experience.
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Cool, fair enough Rasalhague! Thanks for sharing. Also, heh, now I'm chuckling to myself about walruses with ridiculous french accents,
Tineke :D
Don't think it matters a lot at this point, but just for academic interest or in case it sways anyone's thinking one way or the other: as long as you don't mind seeing how the sausage is made and popping into the 2-07 thread in the GM Forums (full of spoilers for 2-07, of course - be warned!) you can see the actual description Calder's player wrote for Calder, which settles the "who decided Calder looks like Lennon?" question rather definitively. Link
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"I don't have any particular accent, and I fled Arniselle to get away from the lines. I have not personally met Calder yet, but I expect there to be a confrontation of morlamaw proportions when we do."
Says the multicolored morlamaw in a bowler and a hawaiian shirt, surrounded by a bunch of thugs.
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★ --- ★ --- ★ --- ★
Charli taps the mike, not used to such ancient tech when you can link up to speaker systems with your personal comm unit. "Hey, can we talk?"
"I don't wish this vote to turn into a beauty contest. I met the Morlamaws early in my career as a Starfinder, and welcomed them with open arms. But I worry that people are voting for or against Calder for all the wrong reasons. Why do we care that he's a morlamaw? We're Pact Worlders, and so embrace diversity of all kinds. What should matter to us is not the style of his sun glasses, nor the musical styling on his tusks. What should matter to us is his personality and his platform. Does he seem like the sort of person who is dedicated and able to make tough decisions? Does he have an appealing enough vision to take us into the next few years? Will he be a strong and wise leader?"
"I don't hear anyone prejudging Avor or Tara because they're human, right? What about Ehu? No one brings his kasathaness into the discussion of whether or not he's qualified. So why do we talk about their platforms and then obsess over Calder's species?" Charli pauses, and passes out tea. Then she says, "Don't vote for or against Calder because he's a morlamaw. He can't help that anymore than I can help being a gnome."