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I kinda think it hasn't been that bad? People are passionate about getting it fixed, and some frustration with the mechanics as we've worked through the ramifications but I haven't seen any personal attacks?
It's ok for the playtest feedback to be negative.
I also feel like people started trying to police the tone of the conversation as soon as it shifted negative.
I've noticed people trotting out snide remarks about math and about people who aren't content with a class that can't keep up, but eh it's mostly on reddit.
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I see a lot of talking about math (and less actual math) and I want to underline something that came up again and again during the original PF2 playtest:
Anything that can be done in a "white room simulation" just looking at numbers is something the devs can do themselves; it's not something they need help with. What they can't do is run thousands of combats with the new classes and see how they feel in actual play- that is the point of the playtest.
So talking about what's mathematically the best thing to do in most situations might help your fellow playtesters figure out how to play these classes, but it's the kind of thing the devs are mostly going to ignore.
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Cue "but obviously the math sucks and obviously the devs haven't noticed so we need a dozen threads telling them so". :P
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I see a lot of talking about math (and less actual math) and I want to underline something that came up again and again during the original PF2 playtest:
Anything that can be done in a "white room simulation" just looking at numbers is something the devs can do themselves; it's not something they need help with. What they can't do is run thousands of combats with the new classes and see how they feel in actual play- that is the point of the playtest.
So talking about what's mathematically the best thing to do in most situations might help your fellow playtesters figure out how to play these classes, but it's the kind of thing the devs are mostly going to ignore.
That's way more of an assumption than I feel comfortable making, especially since we have seen instances where the math doesn't actually get fixed before release and it snowballs into crippling problems with a game element (glances over at the Alchemist) I don't know that game designers always run the math in as intensive ways as the people who play their games, and may accidentally design something that messes with or interacts with an element of the math in a way they didn't anticipate.
Now that isn't to say I don't trust the designers here at Paizo, I'm actually a little in awe of them and think they're pretty great. But I have a lot of faith in the community's crowd sourced understanding of the systems, and their ability to critique what we're given. I see that as very much being our role in the playtest, in addition to the pure "I played it and I felt feels" playtesting we're also doing. Both of those are valuable parts of the playtest and the if the designers were ignoring it... I'd lose quite a bit of faith in them.
That being said, I think the designers are the only ones who can decide what ways of addressing those problems are best for the game. So far, I've been happy with how they've chosen to respond to the problems we raise, even when they take a different approach than I would have to those problems.
But sometimes I'm afraid people are trying to say "No we don't want that kind of feedback" when its not really about the feedback you want, but the feedback you need.
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+1 to the people saying that they had to step away from the forums because of the vitriol. I had to do the same. I've noticed a couple people saying "it's not as bad as other times", and my response to that would be that it was still bad in a noticeable number of threads there. Maybe just from a couple key people I can think of, but it was still noticeably toxic. Hell, Paizo staff had to step in and say "Feedback is great, but can y'all not with this?" in a couple of the last threads I read.
I've seen lots of cool math coming out of it as well, but either way I've been keeping the playtest at arm's reach for a couple weeks until more people actually play the classes more and the dust settles.
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That's way more of an assumption than I feel comfortable making, especially since we have seen instances where the math doesn't actually get fixed before release and it snowballs into crippling problems with a game element (glances over at the Alchemist) I don't know that game designers always run the math in as intensive ways as the people who play their games, and may accidentally design something that messes with or interacts with an element of the math in a way they didn't anticipate.
Now that isn't to say I don't trust the designers here at Paizo, I'm actually a little in awe of them and think they're pretty great. But I have a lot of faith in the community's crowd sourced understanding of the systems, and their ability to critique what we're given. I see that as very much being our role in the playtest, in addition to the pure "I played it and I felt feels" playtesting we're also doing. Both of those are valuable parts of the playtest and the if the designers were ignoring it... I'd lose quite a bit of faith in them.
That being said, I think the designers are the only ones who can decide what ways of addressing those problems are best for the game. So far, I've been happy with how they've chosen to respond to the problems we raise, even when they take a different approach than I would have to...
The Alchemist do have some problems with their math, mainly because of a very very weak chassis, but I think the issues with them are much more on the mechanical aspects and some design issues that spill over their action economy, their feat progression is also uncanny, because it's stuck in PF1e. These are issues that are far harder to fix, sadly, but I hope to see them truly shine one day.
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It's all about keeping a positive attitude. I show up to every single playtest singing "this time it will be different."
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I mean explains why they didn't do playtest with the shifter I guess, though definitely better to have playtest than no playtest.
But yeah I haven't been following on playtest stuff because of real life stuff, but yeah, I think even testing the classes vs bestiary monsters by yourself is more useful than just math analysis.
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Paizo's playtests have always sucked, even going back to the original PF1 Alpha/Beta playtests. People generally equate "screaming loudest" to "my feedback will be accepted."
Nothing new here.
-Skeld
Agreed. I remember those. And some of the posters whose vitriol drove me out of the Pathfinder 1e Beta.
Honestly, I've given my piece, and filled out the surveys (since there's no way I will ever play them in this form). I probably should just hide the forums, rather than deal with the tone.
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Paizo's playtests have always sucked, even going back to the original PF1 Alpha/Beta playtests. People generally equate "screaming loudest" to "my feedback will be accepted."
Nothing new here.
-Skeld
Agreed. I remember those. And some of the posters whose vitriol drove me out of the Pathfinder 1e Beta.
Honestly, I've given my piece, and filled out the surveys (since there's no way I will ever play them in this form). I probably should just hide the forums, rather than deal with the tone.
Thank you for your contribution.
I would love to actually playtest this but my group is pretty much on hold until the world gets back to some semblance of normal. While I too have read a lot of angry back and forth, and this is definitely not new. The community fighting on the forums is passionate, but it does seem to come from a place of ownership in this hobby and that can hit a real nerve in some people.
I think that my wanting to reply to anything is held to the same standards as most internet comment sections, if I still want to comment 5 minutes later after reading something else, then I might truly have something constructive to say.
I have it on good authority to "never trust an elf"NO, no.... The quote is "Never trust a Bunny..."
Thought it was "never trust a fart"
Director of Game Design
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Hey there folks,
Going all the way back to the first Pathfinder playtest, we have never equated "loud or angry" with "correct". I have always advised the team to look beyond the post and its remedies to the underlying cause of the discussion to understand where we need to focus our work.
That said, I am frequently dismayed by the behavior of some folks here on the boards, who use playtests as an excuse to argue with and belittle my team and other posters. I expect better.
That said, we also do not need a thread to discuss this behavior. The focus here is on playtesting. Lets keep to that.
This thread is locked.