Will there be a post playtest Stream?


Secrets of Magic Playtest General Discussion


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Well, today's the last day. With this playtest ending, I was wondering if there will be a post-playtest stream like last years' but didn't find any information on that.

If memory serves me right, last year's stream was a few days after the playtest was over, but with the pandemic and the time needed for data gathering, I don't know if that'll be the case this time around.

Do any of you know if there's info on that?

Liberty's Edge

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Three cheers for an Autopsy Stream!

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

+1 for this - I’d really like to hear the designers’ first impressions of the playtest results.


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I would love a post mortem but I know it’s a tough time for everyone right now. Maybe if we all say please.


Its ok if they don't of course, but I would love a post-playlist stream.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I just want Pathfinder streams in general. I love listening to all the Paizo people on twitch talking about the game.

Mark especially never fails to give really interesting commentary.


I like data, so I hope so.


Verily, I miss pathfinder fridays something fierce, but I am resigned to the fact that the hassles of trying to do it with everyone at home make it...well, not impossible, but impractical. We'll be lucky if we get a blog post, I imagine. Sad to say.


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Also very much interested in seeing a blog post or post-playtest stream regarding what they've learned and what they're going to consider for the two classes. I stayed mostly on the Magus side of things but it's my impression that apparently Summoner was about as controversial as the Magus. With two classes being so contentious in their current experimental forms, I'm really curious what insights Paizo will give.

The most painful part though? The oncoming drip-feed of news and information that will be the next eight and a half months TT^TT


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:

Also very much interested in seeing a blog post or post-playtest stream regarding what they've learned and what they're going to consider for the two classes. I stayed mostly on the Magus side of things but it's my impression that apparently Summoner was about as controversial as the Magus. With two classes being so contentious in their current experimental forms, I'm really curious what insights Paizo will give.

The most painful part though? The oncoming drip-feed of news and information that will be the next eight and a half months TT^TT

I think the Magus was the more controversial, with the Summoner 'issue' being a more vocal minority-- which I say because I suspect they weren't actually heavily represented in the survey data.


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Depends. In play I found Summoner to be more problematic than magus. I could see surveys reflecting those results a lot more, and I played with Marks suggestion and I still found it to be more of an issue.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don’t know about the surveys, but the concerns on the Magus were more distributed, at least from what I saw. The issues with the Summoner seemed mostly concentrated on these forums, whereas I encountered topics on the Magus on reddit, facebook and discord, with Reddit feature some white-room focused posts on Striking Spell

Could be I just didn’t know where to look for the summoner

Scarab Sages

My only real problem with the Summoner was that they had problems getting the actions to cast a spell and that the math was a little unkind at higher levels for the Eidolon.

The Magus had issues in many places.

Still, I so enjoy peeking behind the wizard's curtain on how these playtests go.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:

Also very much interested in seeing a blog post or post-playtest stream regarding what they've learned and what they're going to consider for the two classes. I stayed mostly on the Magus side of things but it's my impression that apparently Summoner was about as controversial as the Magus. With two classes being so contentious in their current experimental forms, I'm really curious what insights Paizo will give.

The most painful part though? The oncoming drip-feed of news and information that will be the next eight and a half months TT^TT

I think the Magus was the more controversial, with the Summoner 'issue' being a more vocal minority-- which I say because I suspect they weren't actually heavily represented in the survey data.

That's an incredibly large assumption you have just made with no evidence to back it

Scarab Sages

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Davido1000 wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:

Also very much interested in seeing a blog post or post-playtest stream regarding what they've learned and what they're going to consider for the two classes. I stayed mostly on the Magus side of things but it's my impression that apparently Summoner was about as controversial as the Magus. With two classes being so contentious in their current experimental forms, I'm really curious what insights Paizo will give.

The most painful part though? The oncoming drip-feed of news and information that will be the next eight and a half months TT^TT

I think the Magus was the more controversial, with the Summoner 'issue' being a more vocal minority-- which I say because I suspect they weren't actually heavily represented in the survey data.
That's an incredibly large assumption you have just made with no evidence to back it

Yeah, it's almost like this a conversation and not an essay.


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The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:

Also very much interested in seeing a blog post or post-playtest stream regarding what they've learned and what they're going to consider for the two classes. I stayed mostly on the Magus side of things but it's my impression that apparently Summoner was about as controversial as the Magus. With two classes being so contentious in their current experimental forms, I'm really curious what insights Paizo will give.

The most painful part though? The oncoming drip-feed of news and information that will be the next eight and a half months TT^TT

I think the Magus was the more controversial, with the Summoner 'issue' being a more vocal minority-- which I say because I suspect they weren't actually heavily represented in the survey data.

Summoner had a lot of issues. I hope more than myself and a handful of others listed the mathematical issues with the class and rules issues.

If the summoner is in the book as a weak class in terms of damage and durability, that is going to really make people unhappy. Currently the summoner mechanics are very exploitable. The damage is weak for the cost with a very locked in play-style.

Seems like a recipe for a rarely played class that won't attract many people to the game.


Angel Hunter D wrote:
Yeah, it's almost like this a conversation and not an essay.

Yeah, its almost like someone downplaying other people's opinion as a vocal minority should be called out on it.


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I would love to see some post playtest commentary. It seems these classes were much more controversial than the apg ones, but that doesn't surprise me tbh, as these two classes where also subject to much discussion in 1e. I always enjoy hearing about paizo's creative process, and I'm especially curious with how they'll take things on these classes

Scarab Sages

Davido1000 wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
Yeah, it's almost like this a conversation and not an essay.
Yeah, its almost like someone downplaying other people's opinion as a vocal minority should be called out on it.

No, because that doesn't actually work.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Davido1000 wrote:
Angel Hunter D wrote:
Yeah, it's almost like this a conversation and not an essay.
Yeah, its almost like someone downplaying other people's opinion as a vocal minority should be called out on it.

I'd cool it if I were you. It's obvious that The-Magic-Sword was speculating, and doing so in a thread about potentially seeing the survey results that would confirm or deny that speculation.

There's no malicious intent here, and you're being unnecessarily combative. The-Magic-Sword has been consistently fair and respectful throughout the whole playtest, and deserves the benefit of your doubt.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote:
The-Magic-Sword wrote:
Inquisitive Tiefling wrote:

Also very much interested in seeing a blog post or post-playtest stream regarding what they've learned and what they're going to consider for the two classes. I stayed mostly on the Magus side of things but it's my impression that apparently Summoner was about as controversial as the Magus. With two classes being so contentious in their current experimental forms, I'm really curious what insights Paizo will give.

The most painful part though? The oncoming drip-feed of news and information that will be the next eight and a half months TT^TT

I think the Magus was the more controversial, with the Summoner 'issue' being a more vocal minority-- which I say because I suspect they weren't actually heavily represented in the survey data.

Summoner had a lot of issues. I hope more than myself and a handful of others listed the mathematical issues with the class and rules issues.

If the summoner is in the book as a weak class in terms of damage and durability, that is going to really make people unhappy. Currently the summoner mechanics are very exploitable. The damage is weak for the cost with a very locked in play-style.

Seems like a recipe for a rarely played class that won't attract many people to the game.

Honestly, I was thinking more about the debate about needing the build-a-bear customization system, what you're talking about didn't strike me as controversial. Just some upwards tuning, and the rune combining mechanic feeling like a clunky way to increase damage.


The-Magic-Sword wrote:


Honestly, I was thinking more about the debate about needing the build-a-bear customization system, what you're talking about didn't strike me as controversial. Just some upwards tuning, and the rune combining mechanic feeling like a clunky way to increase damage.

Just speaking logistically about the things I saw that I found to have issues with:

- Losing your Eidolon in combat is absolutely devastating with the 3 action cost to get it back (and Act Together not working with it)

- Act Together not working with activities by default and basically requires Mark's fix to work

- AoE effects and auras get pretty complex to deal with in general and I ended up having to make a LOT of calls on the field about mental effects between different people, what qualified as "action restricting" moves, etc.

- AoE Continued, catching both Summoner and Eidolon in the same AoE is a really rough go

- Two targets for the purposes of Reactions is actually a huge downside that reared its head. The class is probably the most punished in the game when it comes to positioning because of being in two places at once with all the downsides and very little positives (since you share HP but not abilities entirely)

- Math does not favor Eidolon over other martials and Summoners spells have too disconnected a cohesion with their Eidolons (outside the Eidolon spells like Boost) for them to provide a meaningful alleviation to the deficit

- In general, both of my PCs felt the Eidolon was relatively "boring" and served as a mere means of making a melee attack from two different locations

In terms of which Class required more work from me as a GM to actually make function or just purely in terms of having to make determinations about how things worked, Summoner was by far the bigger culprit.

Magus might have 100 threads about Striking Spell, but Striking Spell actually works, it's just a streaky ability. The Class actually plays pretty close to how I would expect a Magus to play even after this playtest is over and the class receives updates (just more consistency and probably some tuning).

Eidolon/Summoner has all kinds of new mechanics that introduce major logistical issues for me running a combat.

I had to use Mark's change just to stop combats from moving to a crawl with choice paralysis (and generally to add more fun for my players). I considered the Summon solution to Eidolon Manifest (2 actions on summon) as well.

And I was far more vocal about the issues I saw with Magus because of my experience with the Class in PF1, but Summoner to me caused more problems/rulings in actual play.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

True. I think Summoner has more issues that need clarification and seems more complex in its Rules interactions. I saw some posts on which the expectations did not meet what was delivered.

The Magus, on the other hand, has its path laid out. It only has one major issue, which is that Striking Spell either works marvelously or does poorly, depending on the scenario and the buffs/tactics applied.

I think that the Summoner has several minor to moderate issues with more than one aspect while the Magus has the problem of having its mechanic more defined, but still lacking the best execution of it. It worked on some playtests (and even some of mine) and it didn’t on others (some of mine as well).

If I had to guess, I’d say the summoner may receive more additions and changes, while I think the Magus debate revolves around the route chosen for Striking Spell (one roll vs two roll and accuracy bonus or whatever the devs feel is necessary) plus the additional fixes on certain feats (Raise a Tome, etc). Or we get surprised with a rework along the lines of what TheMagicSword has proposed.

I think that four-slot casting either stays or goes for both, although that’s just speculation.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Both surveys offered options to move away from the 4 slot casting, so I wouldn't be that alarmed if they, based on feedback decided to do away with only one of the two using 4-slot casting.

I'm guessing that is one of the things they were planning to base in large part on survey information they get. Even if they both go away from 4-slot casters, I wouldn't assume the concept is gone. But if neither works out for these two, it might be less likely to show up again, than if, one or both of the classes keep it.

I'm hoping they have some kind of Stream, even if it were a compiled set of clips pieced together from the developers talking about useful pieces of information to make a block of time covering the topic. (not necessarily having to be them sitting chatting together) If not live, might be nice to be able to submit some questions for them. [but with all the controversy over this-and-that, that might be more 'flame' than it would be worth.


if they did one before, they will do one again, if not they will probably cite some kind of technical or logistics issue due to the pandemic or something.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So not to claim anything official but on Today's kingmaker stream I asked about this and Both James Jacobs(creative director) and Peyton Smith(Media manager) said there were no plans that they know if for a stream. James however did say that there would likely be a blog or post of some kind but he couldn't be 100% as he isn't involved with the playtest due to his focus on the Kingmaker conversion.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It might just not be fun to try to organize this stream within the context of the pandemic. It would require at least Mark, Logan and Payton setting up a time to do the stream, and basically be as much work as setting up a convention panel, but for an incredible niche target audience. I could see the company saying, "let's focus our time on a blog post and getting the content right."


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If not a stream, I would like to see a lengthy blog post going through and acknowledging the sheer amount of vigorous discourse that the playtest generated, and also to hint at the direction we're likely to see the actual class develop in.

I saw the Summoner as the more contentious of the two classes.

With the Magus, there was pretty much unanimously one major issue and a few minor ones. Striking Spell needing significant improvement was the one big issue, and the concerns around the value of certain feats and the value of certain focus spells and whether four-slot casting was adequate to meet the class' needs. While the solutions proposed varied, I'd optimistically guess that most of them were pretty good solutions and most people would be very happy with them, so long as they fixed the core problems around effectiveness and reliability.

With the Summoner, though, we couldn't even agree on whether half the issues were even issues. The Eidolon's lack of threat in combat is perhaps the one major concern that everyone could agree on (and even then there were people saying that the Eidolon should be comparable to an Animal Companion). The shared HP was divisive, with some loving it and some hating it. The shared actions was divisive, with some hating it and others pointing out that it's fair- no other player character gets two sets of MAP. While everyone could agree that the current degree of customization for the Eidolon was inadequate and more meaningful evolutions were necessary, there were calls for radically new (or rather old) systems to be introduced against the calls for more varied options within the feats system, as well as disagreements over the degree to which mechanics and flavour needed to be distinguished through options.

This is on top of half the issues that the Magus had (proficiency concerns, focus spell options, the four-slot casting, etc).

After all of that, getting an idea as to which solutions are liable to be even considered for these problems would be... cathartic. It's nice to have concrete acknowledgement that your concerns and ideas have been listened to.

That said, I'm not demanding anything. If Paizo's too busy with everything to put together a lengthy response, that's understandable and I'm not going to b&~&# or complain or sling blame about it.


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I agree I think part of why their was such a focus on spell strike. Is because while certainly not unanimous. Majority seemed to be ok with the rest of its kit.


TheGentlemanDM wrote:

If not a stream, I would like to see a lengthy blog post going through and acknowledging the sheer amount of vigorous discourse that the playtest generated, and also to hint at the direction we're likely to see the actual class develop in.

I saw the Summoner as the more contentious of the two classes.

With the Magus, there was pretty much unanimously one major issue and a few minor ones. Striking Spell needing significant improvement was the one big issue, and the concerns around the value of certain feats and the value of certain focus spells and whether four-slot casting was adequate to meet the class' needs. While the solutions proposed varied, I'd optimistically guess that most of them were pretty good solutions and most people would be very happy with them, so long as they fixed the core problems around effectiveness and reliability.

With the Summoner, though, we couldn't even agree on whether half the issues were even issues. The Eidolon's lack of threat in combat is perhaps the one major concern that everyone could agree on (and even then there were people saying that the Eidolon should be comparable to an Animal Companion). The shared HP was divisive, with some loving it and some hating it. The shared actions was divisive, with some hating it and others pointing out that it's fair- no other player character gets two sets of MAP. While everyone could agree that the current degree of customization for the Eidolon was inadequate and more meaningful evolutions were necessary, there were calls for radically new (or rather old) systems to be introduced against the calls for more varied options within the feats system, as well as disagreements over the degree to which mechanics and flavour needed to be distinguished through options.

This is on top of half the issues that the Magus had (proficiency concerns, focus spell options, the four-slot casting, etc).

After all of that, getting an idea as to which solutions are liable to be even considered for these problems would be... cathartic....

Pretty much this. We have hit the point, as I stated in other threads in the Magus sub forum, that without any further input we are basically talking in circles.

That said we all should be setting this post by TheGentlemanDM as a favorite and try to up-vote all posts like it asking for feedback on our feedback to help try and get the message through to the DEV team.


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I'd just like to Put here A big Thank You to the devs for working hard and being open to community criticism which often comes of harsher than we maybe intend. I'd love to hear their thoughts on the Playtest again, but -as many others have said- completely understand if it is not feasible.


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Imo I don'tthink paizo should even consider a blog post until after they have a good idea of where they are going with things. And I personally think a stream would work better, the devs are more obviously people so the disgusting "its their job I should be allowed to be nasty" people are less of an issue.

And oddly, having it be a stream means some of the kneejerkers who read one or two words ans start angrilly typing might miss it entirely or not bother past twitch chat / youtube comments.

I do look forwards to jearing what the devs feel about the magus and summoner though. I don't agree with a large number of design calls in PF2e but boy has it been entertaining


The Gleeful Grognard wrote:
Imo I don't think paizo should even consider a blog post until after they have a good idea of where they are going with things.

This is a really good point, no reason to jump the gun.

That said, even the APG Playtest I don't know that they laid out a lot of specifics about "where they were headed" in the actual stream itself, they mostly just discussed the feedback they had received.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The good thing with people being so passionate about these classes in particular, is that Mark said on his stream last week that Survey participation for this play test was double that of the apg. Which he seemed happy about.


Nicolas Paradise wrote:
The good thing with people being so passionate about these classes in particular, is that Mark said on his stream last week that Survey participation for this play test was double that of the apg. Which he seemed happy about.

WHAT!?!

DOUBLE the APG?

I think I remember them saying that the APG had a significant amount of feedback as well, to the point where it was almost on par with the base playtest numbers.

That's a pretty incredible turnout!

Liberty's Edge

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Yeah if twice the people submitted SoM playtest surveys versus the APG that suggests to me that the APG might have brought in a lot of new players and people over to PF2, even if it really was only PF1 converts now that it's a LOT easier to make a bigger variety of PCs.

Great news no matter why it happened though.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sometimes it is easy on these forums to get wrapped up in the idea of our own personal contribution to the game, but it is definitely our collaborative contribution to providing feedback that will have the greatest overall contribution and it is wonderful to hear that so many of us are participating in that process.

Scarab Sages

Midnightoker wrote:
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
The good thing with people being so passionate about these classes in particular, is that Mark said on his stream last week that Survey participation for this play test was double that of the apg. Which he seemed happy about.

WHAT!?!

DOUBLE the APG?

I think I remember them saying that the APG had a significant amount of feedback as well, to the point where it was almost on par with the base playtest numbers.

That's a pretty incredible turnout!

It's probably due to the Magus and Summoner just having been more popular last edition than the APG classes. Magus is what got me to even start 1E.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Midnightoker wrote:
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
The good thing with people being so passionate about these classes in particular, is that Mark said on his stream last week that Survey participation for this play test was double that of the apg. Which he seemed happy about.

WHAT!?!

DOUBLE the APG?

I think I remember them saying that the APG had a significant amount of feedback as well, to the point where it was almost on par with the base playtest numbers.

That's a pretty incredible turnout!

So I went back and rewatched the clip and he didn't say double sorry for the hyperbole. He did say that it was more than the previous playtest though so either way a good thing.


Nicolas Paradise wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
Nicolas Paradise wrote:
The good thing with people being so passionate about these classes in particular, is that Mark said on his stream last week that Survey participation for this play test was double that of the apg. Which he seemed happy about.

WHAT!?!

DOUBLE the APG?

I think I remember them saying that the APG had a significant amount of feedback as well, to the point where it was almost on par with the base playtest numbers.

That's a pretty incredible turnout!

So I went back and rewatched the clip and he didn't say double sorry for the hyperbole. He did say that it was more than the previous playtest though so either way a good thing.

That makes more sense, because that would have meant the original playtest was then beat by an ancillary book, which means the player base would have had to have grown pretty substantially.

Definitely cool and awesome news, but less surprising numbers :) (people are probably less prone to playtesting new stuff for a game that literally just came out 2 months prior). Curious how much more, since they did say the APG was close to the original playtest.

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