I thinking of quitting my gaming group of twenty years. I have thought about this several times over the years. I feel like my group has more fun during the sessions I miss and although I enjoy the group immensely, and we do have fun gaming together, I feel as though I am holding them back from enjoying the game even more.
Is it selfish of me to keep playing with them if my leaving the group makes the group more enjoyable for those left?
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Unless someone has taken you aside and said directly "We have more fun when you're not here", then that sounds more like anxiety and depression talking.
Rather than quit, why not ask someone in the group that you trust what their perception is?
And don't lead the witness by laying all your negative assumptions out first and asking if they agree. Instead, ask non-leading questions about the atmosphere in the group as a whole.
I'm of the same mind as @CrystalSeas.
Unless someone outright told you it's more fun when you are not there, it is likely more of a biais view of the reality.
checking the fell of the group through someone whose opinion you trust is a good way to see.
Well, we’re all close friends so I don’t think anyone is going to outright say anything.
Whenever one of us misses a game (which has happened once or twice over the years), one of us will run a one shot for the other players. Whenever I miss a game, the one shot becomes a thing of legend. They will literally talk about that session for weeks or months afterwards. That doesn’t happen after one shots when I’m there.
And I’m not saying we don’t have any fun when I game. I think we all actually enjoy it. It just seems they enjoy gaming more when I’m not there.
Is it selfish of me to keep playing with them just because I enjoy it if they would enjoy it more if I wasn’t there?
Knight who says Meh wrote: And I’m not saying we don’t have any fun when I game. I think we all actually enjoy it. It just seems they enjoy gaming more when I’m not there.
Is it selfish of me to keep playing with them just because I enjoy it if they would enjoy it more if I wasn’t there?
Whether or not it seems to you like they're having less fun, so far you haven't described anything that would make me believe that. You need to get a reality check from other members in the group to see if they are interpreting things the same way you are.
I would check your perceptions against the perceptions of the GM, or someone else in the group you feel close to. If you've been together 20 years, I doubt that they suddenly all don't like playing with you.
It's not at all selfish for you to keep playing with them. If you're all close friends, then it's not likely that anyone is actively having a bad time when you're there.
And if your intuition IS accurate, then it's up to them to be straightforward with you. Making decisions like you are contemplating based solely on your own mind-reading skills is not necessary.
What IS necessary is bringing your anxieties up so that you can discuss the situation as friends.
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I agree with CrystalSeas you dont really have any evidence of your fears.
Talk to them about it.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Knight who says Meh wrote: Well, we’re all close friends so I don’t think anyone is going to outright say anything. Why wouldn't close friends of multiple decades tell you the truth if you sincerely ask?
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Knight who says Meh wrote: Is it selfish of me to keep playing with them just because I enjoy it if they would enjoy it more if I wasn’t there? What is clearly selfish is disrupting a friendship group that has lasted 20 years because you made a decision about what is best for everyone else without even consulting them.
Fumarole wrote: Knight who says Meh wrote: Well, we’re all close friends so I don’t think anyone is going to outright say anything. Why wouldn't close friends of multiple decades tell you the truth if you sincerely ask? Same reason your significant other wouldn’t tell you that your butt looks fat in your favorite pair of jeans.
Unfortunately, your mind seems to be pretty set in following this course of action without even talking to your friend to validate or invalidate your (likely skewed) perception of the situation.
I seriously doubt, anyone here will tell you anything other that the advice from above: Unless a clear explicite statement in the effect that playing with you is no fun, talk to your friend and see how they feel about it.
Going to chime in with all the others to say that the worry you're expressing seems more likely internal than what your friends are experiencing.
But even if you were right, it's not selfish to keep playing if you're all having fun.
Knight who says Meh wrote: Fumarole wrote: Knight who says Meh wrote: Well, we’re all close friends so I don’t think anyone is going to outright say anything. Why wouldn't close friends of multiple decades tell you the truth if you sincerely ask? Same reason your significant other wouldn’t tell you that your butt looks fat in your favorite pair of jeans. Yes, but that reason is because your significant other cares enough about you to recognize that you love those jeans, and for them to see you so happy when you get in those jeans makes them happy and then they love you more, because seeing that smile on your face is better than the best toned hiney in the world.
You enjoy these games, and your friends enjoy these games. If you can see that they enjoy these games, they can see that you enjoy these games, and that means they care about you and want you to be there with them.
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Yes. It would be selfish. It would be selfish to just leave. It would be selfish for you to decide FOR your friends that you know better, you know more than they are willing to say to your face.
Are you ok Meh? Let's check in with you here. Has anything happened recently that might seem like it's got nothing to do with your games?
When I got divorced I was a mess. My games, by extension, were a mess. Another GM who'd never run anything had to step in. Then as a player in that AP I showed up so self-medicated I got taken aside and talked to by a buddy of mine.
I've cleaned up my drinking and gotten that under control. Still I suffer depression and anxiety. As such, my memory is terrible these days. My players get annoyed with me when whole chunks of villains, NPCs and places I made up on the fly for my games but forgot to write down lose all detail or even get spontaneously revised.
Y'know how embarrassing it is to have a player politely remind you that the party encountered the EXACT room you're describing 2 weeks ago?
Anyway, I'm just saying I've been there and didn't realize how bad I was until a friend talked to me. I'm still bad, but I'm slowly getting better. Maybe you're in the same boat Knight, who knows?
Bottom line, it is selfish for you to decide that after 20 years of gaming friendship these folks don't merit a conversation about the reality of your feelings.
Please talk with your friends. Level with them about how you're feeling. Be honest with your friends and yourself about how you came to these feelings and what's happening in your own life that may be informing this decision.
Finally, I hope you're doing ok Knight.
If you are impacting other players fun, then it is the GMs responsibility to talk it through with you, and then if you don't change, it is the GMs responsibility to remove you from the game.
Note how at no point in those steps are you responsible for removing yourself. You wouldn't set the DCs for skill checks or say "a troll attacks the party" because that is the role of the GM.
Also note how those steps require a conversation between at least one person and the problem player before any action is taken.
In addition, making assumptions about how other people feel and making decisions that affect them without consulting them is not conducive to being a good friend.
Talk with your friends. All relationships work better with honest communication.
Besides talking with people - always a better idea than relying on impressions - a few ideas about what might be problems. Might be, these could be way off instead.
If the wacky plans don't come about when you're there, are you being really negative? Sometimes biting your tongue when someone comes up with an idea which shouldn't work is better than pointing out the problems.
Do you make characters which are a problem and which others need to work around? PaladinBot 2000 with a -6 ACP, minimal skills and surgically-implanted stick can be a problem for others.
Are you enjoying the game when you're there? It's hard to make others feel good if you hate the game's theme, or if it bores you or something. If you could get the game changed to fit your tastes better it can help with others enjoyment. People can tell when you're not happy even if they don't consciously realise it.
Well, based on everyone’s advice, I talked things over with my group. I explained what I felt and why. I offered to excuse myself from gaming if it would benefit the group. (Also I should mention that the plan was not to sever all ties with them. We are still friends even when we’re not gaming.)
Two of the four said they wanted me to stay. One said his wife wanted me to stay (one of the two), never actually said he wanted me to stay and one of them said nothing at all (this is all over text as we are all still socially distancing)
No one actually commented on my reason for leaving the group.
By my reasoning (that friends don’t want to hurt each other’s feelings) that seems like a confirmation that they at least somewhat agree.
Honestly I feel worse now than I did before.
avr wrote: Besides talking with people - always a better idea than relying on impressions - a few ideas about what might be problems. Might be, these could be way off instead.
If the wacky plans don't come about when you're there, are you being really negative? Sometimes biting your tongue when someone comes up with an idea which shouldn't work is better than pointing out the problems.
Do you make characters which are a problem and which others need to work around? PaladinBot 2000 with a -6 ACP, minimal skills and surgically-implanted stick can be a problem for others.
Are you enjoying the game when you're there? It's hard to make others feel good if you hate the game's theme, or if it bores you or something. If you could get the game changed to fit your tastes better it can help with others enjoyment. People can tell when you're not happy even if they don't consciously realise it.
I would say that I definitely into the game then most of them. I do enjoy theory crafting, I like fiddling with all the bells and whistles. But the characters I bring to a game i tone down a little. I would say I more rules oriented than the other players but I always defer to the DM (we all take turns DMing). I never insist or try to argue a rule.
I’m willing to try to change but I don’t know what I’m doing that is dragging things down.
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Knight who says Meh wrote: Well, based on everyone’s advice, I talked things over with my group. I explained what I felt and why. I offered to excuse myself from gaming if it would benefit the group. (Also I should mention that the plan was not to sever all ties with them. We are still friends even when we’re not gaming.)
Two of the four said they wanted me to stay. One said his wife wanted me to stay (one of the two), never actually said he wanted me to stay and one of them said nothing at all (this is all over text as we are all still socially distancing)
No one actually commented on my reason for leaving the group.
By my reasoning (that friends don’t want to hurt each other’s feelings) that seems like a confirmation that they at least somewhat agree.
Honestly I feel worse now than I did before.
Your reasoning is that three people saying they want you to stay out of five? four? is confirmation that they don't want you to stay?
It sounds like no matter what people say or do or actually feel, that you are assuming the worst of them, which is pretty unfair. I have had friends before who made assumptions about my feelings despite all evidence to the contrary, and I can tell you that it made me feel kind of trampled.
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Texting isn't talking, you need to actually talk to people.
Be it in person, over the phone, or video chat.
captain yesterday wrote: Texting isn't talking, you need to actually talk to people.
Be it in person, over the phone, or video chat.
Agreed. A lot can get lost in translation if you're communicating only via text.
Tender Tendrils wrote: Knight who says Meh wrote: Well, based on everyone’s advice, I talked things over with my group. I explained what I felt and why. I offered to excuse myself from gaming if it would benefit the group. (Also I should mention that the plan was not to sever all ties with them. We are still friends even when we’re not gaming.)
Two of the four said they wanted me to stay. One said his wife wanted me to stay (one of the two), never actually said he wanted me to stay and one of them said nothing at all (this is all over text as we are all still socially distancing)
No one actually commented on my reason for leaving the group.
By my reasoning (that friends don’t want to hurt each other’s feelings) that seems like a confirmation that they at least somewhat agree.
Honestly I feel worse now than I did before.
Your reasoning is that three people saying they want you to stay out of five? four? is confirmation that they don't want you to stay?
It sounds like no matter what people say or do or actually feel, that you are assuming the worst of them, which is pretty unfair. I have had friends before who made assumptions about my feelings despite all evidence to the contrary, and I can tell you that it made me feel kind of trampled.
Maybe I’m interpreting things in a negative way. It seems bad to me. Again, I’m approaching this assuming friends don’t want to hurt their friends feelings. Are you saying that if you told your group that you thought that you were hurting their enjoyment of the game and half the group sort of agreed with you that you would see that as a good thing?
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Somewhere between 50% and 75% of the people explicitly said they want you to stay. I'd say that was a good thing.People have been elected president with less support than that.
You seem to have a voice in your head telling you that these people are not capable of telling you the truth, and that even if they say they want you to stay, they're lying. Apparently you have decided that they find you so emotionally fragile that they cannot be honest with you.
Again, that sounds like depression speaking. Taking positive comments and twisting them 180 degrees to mean that you are ruining their game is not a healthy response to friends who support you.
Alternatively, perhaps you've decided that you no longer want to game with these people, and you're trying to put the blame on them for your decision.
I had a new guy join one of my games a little bit ago. He was new to me so I figured I'd give him a lot of the benefit of the doubt. From the jump though, he and I weren't gelling.
Anyway he was a friend of one of my players, as well as her co-worker. As the games progressed it was obvious our styles were not compatible. One night after a session he ducked out early and the rest of the players were venting frustrations with this guy. As GM I said I'd talk to this person.
My one player, who was his friend and co-worker, said not to worry about it. Next week the new guy didn't show back up. The gal who told me not to worry had met up with him at work and leveled with him. She said it'd come better with him hearing it from a friend than some rando GM he just met.
My point Knight is just that: if they're your friends, yes; you should EXPECT them to level with you and tell you the truth of how they feel. Sure, sometimes a spouse doesn't tell their significant other how their booty looks in a pair of jeans, but if the jeans wearer said "I'm thinking about leaving you unless you can be honest about how you feel when I wear these jeans" you better believe that the spouse in question would deliver the truth.
I've already asked you directly how you're doing and you haven't answered that for whatever reason. I've also asked if you have anything in yourself you think might be contributing to the negativity here, but again there has been no response. Let me try it this way:
Knight, do you WANT to leave this game?
Regardless of multiple responses as well as 3/5 (more than half) of your gaming group trying to talk this through with you and encouraging you to stick with it, you've pretty much made up your mind to leave. It feels like, no matter what the advice, you will be quitting this game though remaining friends with these folks.
However these are only my FEELINGS, based on the limited text information I can read in this thread. I haven't spoken with you, heard the tone of your voice, caught subtle inflections or subtext I might be missing. I also haven't video-chatted with you so I can't see your face as you're saying all of this. If I could, maybe I could read signs or body language indicating self doubt, anxiety or something else that might give the impression of some contradiction you're struggling with.
In short: a text thread (like the good Captain said above) isn't a real conversation.
Yes, your friends SHOULD tell you the hard truths. If they're your friends, REALLY your friends, they will be honest with you when they realize how important this is. If you want critical analysis and truth from them though, point that lens at yourself and understand why, when a rift starts growing between you and them in your feelings, your first instinct is to cut out instead of confronting the issue and doing something about it.
What if you asked them - why are you guys having such epic games without me? and they answered you? What if they told you that you are so focused on the mechanics of your builds that you don't engage in the narrative elements of the campaign? Would you have any desire to change or modify your play style? Would you demand they be more numbers or rules conscious? Would you compromise between either of those?
Or would you still leave?
If you're wondering if this action would be selfish, yes it is. Now that you've reached out and some of your friends have actively asked you to stay, you have your answer on at least whether or not they enjoy gaming with you. The ball is entirely in your court now Knight - be honest, deal with the rift between you and your friends and within yourself, or don't.
Knight it sounds like you have not just anxiety but Depression going on. Suggest talking to your doctor. That might change everything about your choice to leave the game. You have had three people tell you to stay yet you still read that as a negative. So two people didn't seem to care one way or another is not indication they want you to leave. Again sounds like depression. I suffer from it so I know the signs. Social distancing it has made things bad for everyone even antisocial people.
The fact they talk about one shots means the GM made it memorable because it was different and fun. Most one shots are meant to be fun. They could have played something they have never played or done something not normally allowed by the normal rules. I remember a one shot where I played a Troll. I died something like three times waited came back continued the adventure. Most of the players were always teasing me that a sword my character owned wouldn't let me use it as a Troll. Me and another player were focused on me being a troll. I mean you are an almost indestructible monster running around. I got electrocuted got pulled from the water waited came back made some comment about that was shocking we laughed continued on. And that game was when I was in high school more then twenty some odd years ago.
You made a mention of you seem to be holding back. How so? Another reason to think the issue is with you. Understand I am not trying to be mean or insulting I understand feelings like what is going on I want you to get better.
To be honest, this sounds like an out of game thing. Do you have access to therapy?
Its brilliant (imo) to be able to talk stuff like this over with people who are trained to help you work out what you want and are able to question/challenge/explore your thinking and experiences whilst always being explicitly on your side.
To answer your question about should friends say something that might hurt their feelings, id say yes:
Two years back we had a guy who turned up and "dialled it in" somewhat. Shrugged and didnt really care about the plot, spent more time catching pokemon on his phone than listening, just generally didnt seem to care..
Ive known him and gamed with him for....thirty five years or so. I let things ride for a few months then eventually sat him down, said it was affecting my enjoyment and our game went on hiatus. About six months later I got together a new group, asked if he wanted to play and hes come back an absolutely awesome player who is enthusiastic, engaged and more into it than ever before. I think taking an honest "what are we looking for" check was great (and would have been even if hed decided not to return). But we couldnt have had a genuine evolution of our friendship if I'd tried to have both halves of the conversation.
It may be its best for you to move on. It may be all in your imagination. It might just be a fear of missing out and those one offs you think of as legendary are amplified in your mind. We cant tell from here obviously but Im skeptical you can either.
Therapy is awesome, in my view and I think its excellent for precisely these kinds of situations. (It doesnt have to only happen in times of real, full on crisis).
Talking to my gaming friend of decades was very scary, but ultimately it worked out well for both of us.
Fwiw, he had felt similar things to you - that we weren't enjoying gaming with him. By talking it through we were able to clearly work out what everyone was looking for and it turned out gaming together was the way to achieve that.
I was glad I'd spoken up even in the immediate aftermath (when it looked like we'd never play again).
I cant tell you that your friends would think like me. Nor can I tell you what you should think about it all but a decent therapist can help you get there.
The OP has not posted anything on Paizo boards since Sept 10, 2020.
The first post in this thread was made Sept 5, 2020, and their final post in this thread was their last one on these boards.
I don't think they're going to be reading these new posts.
Oh. Thanks. Serves me right for not checking the date stamp.
Cheers
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