Just to make sure, at lower levels the Witch's Cackle Hex can only be used for 1 round, because it a Focus and it doesn't matter if it is a Free action?
It can be used as many times as you have available focus points.
Right, but at low levels you only have one, even at high levels you only have three. I'm trying to balance if it is worth taking this or just use regular sustains.
Personally I don't think it is worth it. Focus points are just too limited of a resource. If this was a class feature I might use it once in awhile, but it doesn't feel worth a feat to me.
The one tactic I saw posted here that makes it valuable is if you want to play a summoning caster. Summon spells are 3 actions, this would allow you to cast a summon, next turn use Cackle as a free action to sustain the first summons keeping three actions to cast another summons.
Then you would have to pay 2 actions a turn to keep sustaining both of them but it is a way to get multiple summons out at low levels.
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It's potentially worth adding to your arsenal if your existing Focus Spells aren't things you'll want to do every combat. It's not the best option in a particular combat if you have another good Focus Spell, but there's no foe or situation that isn't improved at least slightly by adding an extra action, so it's a good backup if your other Focus Spells are very good but only in some situations.
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Actually, if you take Cackle, you get 1 extra Focus point, and the Witch start with one, for a total of 2.
You still can only regain 1 by refocusing, so you would be able to use it twice on only 1 fight per day.
Like it has been said in other threads, it is a way to jack the 3 action.
For example, if you need to cast a 2 action spell, but also really need to move that turn, it allows to keep a spell sustained that you'd need to drop normally.
A feat and a focus point does seem like a very steep cost for such an iconic ability. I kind of feel they went the wrong way with it and would have preferred they kept the old “alternative sustain” just so you could cackle away even with limited mechanical impact. And then add this feat as something on top?
But as it stands cackling witches are probably going to be a thing of the past. Which I am sure wasn’t the design intent
That said it always was theoretically “optional” as a feat. But so so powerful that is was a no brainer. I appreciate removing no brainer options as much as possible but this potentially went to too far the other way which is always a risk
Actually, if you take Cackle, you get 1 extra Focus point, and the Witch start with one, for a total of 2.
You still can only regain 1 by refocusing, so you would be able to use it twice on only 1 fight per day.
Like it has been said in other threads, it is a way to jack the 3 action.
For example, if you need to cast a 2 action spell, but also really need to move that turn, it allows to keep a spell sustained that you'd need to drop normally.
Hadn’t thought about it as a jack on the action economy. And my players are quickly learning that such things are invaluable
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Actually, if you take Cackle, you get 1 extra Focus point, and the Witch start with one, for a total of 2.
You still can only regain 1 by refocusing, so you would be able to use it twice on only 1 fight per day.
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Give your Familiar the Familiar Focus Master Ability and you can use it twice in 2 fights/day. (Or three times in 1 fight.)
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But as it stands cackling witches are probably going to be a thing of the past. Which I am sure wasn’t the design intent
You can always Cackle without the feat. Is there a reason not to cackle all the time as a Witch?
And I also find it's a very strong feat, an enabler as it can be the base of some tactics (like the double summoning one)Of course, if you go for Cackle, you need a good sustainable spell.
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I think Cackle is just right. A tool in the toolbox instead of a hokey ongoing requirement.
Just imagine landing an important buff or debuff, then getting pressured by an enemy forcing you to use your three actions to defend/runaway, and still being able to keep the buff or debuff up for that critical moment.
It's not really for the hex cantrips, which are verging on useless.
Cackle have some nice utility, and Witch will usually be sustaining something.
- Being able to cast a 2 action spell and move out of danger while still keeping a Sustain spell active.
- Cast a 3 action spell like Wall of Fire while keeping one hex active.
- First turn Elemental Betrayal + Flaming Sphere and then in the second turn cackle one of the two and cast another 2 action spell.
- Make two summons possible at low levels.
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It's not really for the hex cantrips, which are verging on useless.
This I'd strongly disagree with as a general statement.
Some Hex cantrips are pretty bad, but Evil Eye is potentially the same math on one target as Dirge of Doom from 1st level (if they fail the Save), Stoke The Heart is a potentially very solid damage buff, and Clinging Ice is great for encounters with multiple enemies (in such encounters it'll actually up your damage a huge amount if combined with, say, Electric Arc...you never bother to maintain it, but the damage is very solid for one action).
Hexes, however, being cantrips, are rarely worth maintaining with Cackle. I'd just argue that some of them are good cantrips.
Yeah, I think stuff like enabling double summons or a move out of danger without hurting your casting is just right. PF1 annoyed me with how Witch was all but required to cackle, and playtest cackle was too close to just flavor.
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It's not really for the hex cantrips, which are verging on useless.This I'd strongly disagree with as a general statement.
Some Hex cantrips are pretty bad, but Evil Eye is potentially the same math on one target as Dirge of Doom from 1st level (if they fail the Save), Stoke The Heart is a potentially very solid damage buff, and Clinging Ice is great for encounters with multiple enemies (in such encounters it'll actually up your damage a huge amount if combined with, say, Electric Arc...you never bother to maintain it, but the damage is very solid for one action).
Hexes, however, being cantrips, are rarely worth maintaining with Cackle. I'd just argue that some of them are good cantrips.
Yeah, sorry, I always play buffing witches and tend to forget about the offensive hexes. Yes, they're definitely not useless.
I do feel the buffing cantrips *are* verging on useless, especially when Inspire Courage is on the table.
Extremely irritating that I can't convert any of my witches to this version of Witch and not feel really hard done by.
Right, but at low levels you only have one, even at high levels you only have three. I'm trying to balance if it is worth taking this or just use regular sustains.
If you take Cackle at 1st level you have two (because you start with one and Phase Familiar) and if you take Basic Lesson at 2nd level you already have three. 2nd level is not high levels.
And of course your familiar can restore a focus point once per day, allowing you to use three focus points in one fight, two in one fight, and one in all the other fights.
Am I right that only humans will have cackle at level 1?
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But as it stands cackling witches are probably going to be a thing of the past. Which I am sure wasn’t the design intentYou can always Cackle without the feat. Is there a reason not to cackle all the time as a Witch?
And I also find it's a very strong feat, an enabler as it can be the base of some tactics (like the double summoning one)
Of course, if you go for Cackle, you need a good sustainable spell.
There is a difference between “Cackle” and “cackle”.
I am just picturing one of my players who has a 1E witch entirely for the various mechanical bits and utterly would not cackle unless there was a mechanical benefit for doing so
But as it stands cackling witches are probably going to be a thing of the past. Which I am sure wasn’t the design intentYou can always Cackle without the feat. Is there a reason not to cackle all the time as a Witch?
And I also find it's a very strong feat, an enabler as it can be the base of some tactics (like the double summoning one)
Of course, if you go for Cackle, you need a good sustainable spell.There is a difference between “Cackle” and “cackle”.
I am just picturing one of my players who has a 1E witch entirely for the various mechanical bits and utterly would not cackle unless there was a mechanical benefit for doing so
No longer requiring Cackle probably IS the design intent. Needing to cackle every round of combat to be an effective Witch was limiting on how folks played the class. (Let alone PF1's issues of double-cackling and cackling for hours at a time.)
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I hated playtest cackle. Nothing-abilities like that really bug me, and are just terrible for cognitive load on new players.
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I think the existence of this debate indicates they did the right thing with Cackle. I hated the playtest Cackle as class feature. So I'm happy to see as a class feat that I can ignore without feeling I'm losing out too much, which was the problem with the 1e Cackle hex. Cackle was only "iconic" because it was so powerful. I for the most part hated it.
It's not really for the hex cantrips, which are verging on useless.This I'd strongly disagree with as a general statement.
Some Hex cantrips are pretty bad, but Evil Eye is potentially the same math on one target as Dirge of Doom from 1st level (if they fail the Save), Stoke The Heart is a potentially very solid damage buff, and Clinging Ice is great for encounters with multiple enemies (in such encounters it'll actually up your damage a huge amount if combined with, say, Electric Arc...you never bother to maintain it, but the damage is very solid for one action).
Hexes, however, being cantrips, are rarely worth maintaining with Cackle. I'd just argue that some of them are good cantrips.
Note that even the full on hexes not just the cantrips are aside from a couple exceptions 1 action abilities. They are very handy for having big casting rounds. That said I think cackle probably gets used for sustaining thing like summons or actual spells so you can have a couple strong sustained spells active in a round. Anything that gives you an extra action in a round on demand is pretty strong utility especially that it comes online at very low levels.
Also as mentioned taking cackle works like taking a focus power so gives you a focus so its a pretty no brainer low hanging fruit pick for a witch for an initial feat grab to give you 2 focus points with an option of a free sustain action for 1 focus.
Yeah, sorry, I always play buffing witches and tend to forget about the offensive hexes. Yes, they're definitely not useless.
I do feel the buffing cantrips *are* verging on useless, especially when Inspire Courage is on the table.
I'm thinking that is deliberate. Rather than having two party-buffing classes available, have one focus on party buffing, and the other on enemy debuffing.
So Bard gets Inspire Courage, Song of Strength, and Allegro - and throw in Dirge of Doom so it isn't completely one-sided.
And for Witch we have Evil Eye, Shroud of Night, Clinging Ice, and Wilding Word - and throw in Nudge Fate and Stoke the Heart so that it isn't completely one-sided.
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Heavy "meh" from me on that. The single target nature of it makes it virtually impractical outside a very narrow set of circumstances. And it still only turns failures into successes.