Well, instead of making one topic per suggestion, why not regroup everything here?
I'll start:
* a Knack to create Armor Upgrades and Shields (as Major Forms)
* another benefit for the Stealth Array, such as giving Agile Host and Alacritous Form for free
* Swarm Strike to also grant the Solar Weapon/Flare damage progression
* Give the Stealth Array a bonus on Computers checks
* Give the Cloud Array a swarm attack OR the ability to conjure one Major form within the cloud
* How about a FOURTH array, called a Drone Array? Have the Nanocyte being able to create a Hover or a Stealth drone.
You can make consumer drones already, they're technological items.
They are quite bulky on average (6), but the thief drone is a fairly doable 4 Bulk while the spy drone is merely L. Enough for some recon or surveillance.
I'm having a hard time judging the Sheath itself, but it certainly needs more support all around (both Knacks and Faculties).
Some of the'other suggestions seem unnecessary.
* another benefit for the Stealth Array, such as giving Agile Host and Alacritous Form for free
I assume you mean "Sheath" Array.
* Swarm Strike to also grant the Solar Weapon/Flare damage progression
Swarm Strike already benefits from Improved Unarmed Strike; this is unnecessary.
* Give the Stealth Array a bonus on Computers checks
I'm honestly confused as to why it isn't an option in Versatile Nanites in the first place.
* Give the Cloud Array a swarm attack OR the ability to conjure one Major form within the cloud
Cloud array probably has the best synergy with knacks and faculties already; letting you attack or make gear arrays redundant seems a bit much.
* How about a FOURTH array, called a Drone Array? Have the Nanocyte being able to create a Hover or a Stealth drone.
...making drone mechanics redundant?
You can make consumer drones already, they're technological items.
They are quite bulky on average (6), but the thief drone is a fairly doable 4 Bulk while the spy drone is merely L. Enough for some recon or surveillance.
Except that the drone will disintegrate if it gets more than 10 feet from you.
Swarm Strike already benefits from Improved Unarmed Strike; this is unnecessary.
No, it does not, because you need to take the feat IN ADDITION of the knack.
That's like if Solarians had to pick an extra feat to get the damage progression.... oh wait, they must do so for the Solar Shield...
Swarm Strike already benefits from Improved Unarmed Strike; this is unnecessary.No, it does not, because you need to take the feat IN ADDITION of the knack.
That's like if Solarians had to pick an extra feat to get the damage progression.... oh wait, they must do so for the Solar Shield...
Yes, and investing a feat for better unarmed damage is completely reasonable. There are lots of ways to get unarmed strike bonuses now, and nearly all of them benefit from IUS. If you don't want to do that, you can buy a weapon.
They already tried giving IUS for free to Pistol Whip, and it was too good; it wasn't allowed in Society play.
Even if you don't get IUS, Swarm Strike gives you a reasonable back-up weapon. You can rely on your regular weapon or gear array if you don't want to buy IUS, and still have a personal defense weapon that uses Con to hit and does half again specialization damage.
If Swarm Strike were a regular class feature (which, you know, it could end up being in the final analysis), then you might have a point; it could be made to mirror the Vanguard or Solarian. As a low level knack... I don't think it's necessary.
The big huge suggestion from me- Ditch Nanite Investment entirely. Its far too awkward a game mechanic that introduces tons of problems for no good balance reason. Instead, rely on some combination of:
1. A set UPB budget based on level, that they simply get for being that level
2. A UPB budget based on an absorbed item, which is *not* lost and can be unequipped and replaced
3. A simple level limit on picks, which is already part of the rule anyway and would cover 90% of balance issues
I would personally base it on 3, then include elements of 2 - You absorb a weapon or tech item and can apply gear array bonuses to it, similar to the knack that lets you add traits to your gear array weapons (why the heck is that level 10? The traits are pretty much all stuff you can get at low levels... that should be built into Gear Array like how the Vanguard can improve Entropic Strike).
In addition you have a level limit on what forms you can make, unrelated to the absorbed item. Allow for downtime action changing your forms so people aren't stuck with bad choices for 1-4 whole levels (the mechanic can do this already). If it REALLY matters that some of your forms have to be terrible, just add some columns to the nanocyte level table listing how many things they get at:
Level +1
Level +0
Level -1
Level -2
etc.
Similarly to how you would indicate spells per level for a caster.
The whole UPB/credit limit on investments is overly complicated, (ironically) wasteful, and leads to potential friction with the party. It makes my soul hurt... and I normally LOVE complicated systems.
Yes, and investing a feat for better unarmed damage is completely reasonable. There are lots of ways to get unarmed strike bonuses now, and nearly all of them benefit from IUS. If you don't want to do that, you can buy a weapon.Swarm Strike already benefits from Improved Unarmed Strike; this is unnecessary.No, it does not, because you need to take the feat IN ADDITION of the knack.
That's like if Solarians had to pick an extra feat to get the damage progression.... oh wait, they must do so for the Solar Shield...
The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array. It's being able to shape any item he can from his nanites in a blink of an eye. The other two arrays feel like secondary features tacked in for good measures.
"Hey, don't worry, I'm unarmed!"
*whips up a pistol and shoots*
"Sykes! Sorry :P"
That's the general idea. There's no reason to NOT use the other 2 arrays unless they are equally viable combat wise.
I'm almost tempted to suggest the Gear Array as a constant activated feature for the Nanocyte, and being able to switch from Sheath or Cloud Array only.
Even if you don't get IUS, Swarm Strike gives you a reasonable back-up weapon. You can rely on your regular weapon or gear array if you don't want to buy IUS, and still have a personal defense weapon that uses Con to hit and does half again specialization damage.
You're mentionning regular gear. You are technically telling me that the Nanocyte needs to spend credits for his forms AND his non-form items. That's like telling your Solarian to buy a melee weapon when he's already wielding a Solar Weapon. Ok, fine, there are situations that regular gear is needed, if energy damage is required, but not 99% of the time.
If Swarm Strike were a regular class feature (which, you know, it could end up being in the final analysis), then you might have a point; it could be made to mirror the Vanguard or Solarian. As a low level knack... I don't think it's necessary.
Swarm Strike needs to be "Nanite Surged" in order to work, it doesn't just replace your unarmed strikes while you're in Sheath Array, as it must be activated. So you need the knack, the feat AND a surge use to make Swarm Strike usable and viable.
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The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array. It's being able to shape any item he can from his nanites in a blink of an eye. The other two arrays feel like secondary features tacked in for good measures.
Uh, I didn't get that impression at all. Gear Array might seem like the main gimmick due to how much we talk about the mechanics, but the class itself has a lot of stuff dedicated to each of the arrays. One could easily play a cloud array character and only use the gear array in emergencies, or the shroud array when one needs skill bonuses.
I'm almost tempted to suggest the Gear Array as a constant activated feature for the Nanocyte, and being able to switch from Sheath or Cloud Array only.
The nanocyte is already devistatingly flexible. I'm not sure that saying, "here's one of the best parts for free, go wild" is the appropriate balance that Paizo is looking for.
You're mentionning regular gear. You are technically telling me that the Nanocyte needs to spend credits for his forms AND his non-form items. That's like telling your Solarian to buy a melee weapon when he's already wielding a Solar Weapon. Ok, fine, there are situations that regular gear is needed, if energy damage is required, but not 99% of the time.
...you do know that weapon Solarians often do use weapons other than their solar weapons, and armor solarians DEFINITELY need to buy armor other than their solar armor, right? Solarians also spend credits on their crystals, and vanguards pay to upgrade the damage on their weapon entropic strikes.
Nanocytes absolutely need to both upkeep their investment AND their regular gear. It's one of the reasons a lot of us are advocating for simplifying or modifying how the investment system works.
Swarm Strike needs to be "Nanite Surged" in order to work, it doesn't just replace your unarmed strikes while you're in Sheath Array, as it must be activated. So you need the knack, the feat AND a surge use to make Swarm Strike usable and viable.
Seems legit. You need an exploit, a feat, and Natural Weapons to make a Death Strike build truly lethal for an Operative. You need an alternate connection power, a feat, and spell slots to make a Wrecking Fists build for a Mystic work.
Swarm Strike is usable and viable without IUS, too. Level and a half specialization is already very good, and Con to attack is exceptionally solid for a character that doesn't invest in Dex or Str. An Int-secondary skill monkey nanocyte has an available, accurate AoO or melee attack on top of having some great skill bonuses.
I'd like to avoid power creep with the new classes. I see no reason why the nanocyte should get stuff upgraded for free that other folks have to pay for.
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The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array.
Says who ? I don't necessarily like it but if there's one "Main gimmick", of all three arrays it's probably the Cloud. It just gets the most, more efficient stuff. I also expect (and hope) the goal to be having all 3 fairly balanced.
So ... Yeah, I really don't see "Gear Array for weapons" being a main focus of the Nanocyte, at least as it is now.
Aside from the much discussed Investment issues, which are very much a thing, relying entirely on the array for weaponry means no accessories and no fusions. And I don't feel like the faculties and knacks do enough to compensate, though I could certainly be wrong.
Not ideal.
Array weapons as an emergency panic button, absolutely. But I wouldn't rely on it for my main offense.
Besides, "surprise weapon" is a lot less effective in a setting where half of everyone can kill you with their magic hands or just their minds. And everyone else can do it with the right tech, no need to be a Nanocyte.
I also don't know that the solar weapon progression would be as helpful as you seem to believe. Aside from the fact that one is the core feature of a class and the other is an option even Sheath specialists can safely ignore (if one great enough to build around), IUS + double specialization is at its best better than solar weapon + normal spe (and at its worst still competitive). Solarians do rely on crystals to supplement their output, and you're not getting more than basic specialization of top of an innate progression.
If anything, I actually suggest Gear Array gets a buff, given how it's mainly "spend normal wealth by level towards a weapon, get an single extra backup weapon you'd care about for free" that prevents you from using or nerfs most of the options of the class if you're using either your primary or backup weapons.
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That reminds me of another thing, probably should make it so you can get Sniper Rifle proficiency with the Esoteric Edge knack.
The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array.Says who ? I don't necessarily like it but if there's one "Main gimmick", of all three arrays it's probably the Cloud. It just gets the most, more efficient stuff. I also expect (and hope) the goal to be having all 3 fairly balanced.
Well, if it's the case, then the Sheath and Cloud Arrays should get as much utility as the Gear Array.
Right now, there's little to no incentive to use either of those.
A measly bonus to Reflex saving throws and skill checks does NOT equate to getting extra forms, just like getting a flat concealment purcentage. Yeah, the concealment stops at 20%.
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The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array.Says who ? I don't necessarily like it but if there's one "Main gimmick", of all three arrays it's probably the Cloud. It just gets the most, more efficient stuff. I also expect (and hope) the goal to be having all 3 fairly balanced.Well, if it's the case, then the Sheath and Cloud Arrays should get as much utility as the Gear Array.
Right now, there's little to no incentive to use either of those.
A measly bonus to Reflex saving throws and skill checks does NOT equate to getting extra forms, just like getting a flat concealment purcentage. Yeah, the concealment stops at 20%.
...
+1, plus one more per 3 levels is NOT a "measly bonus." The skills are also flexible, with up to 10 choices if you get Versatile Nanites. Like, that is a REALLY powerful ability, PLUS Initiative if you get Agile Host. Add in Swarm Strike and you have a very dangerous melee opponent.
Cloud is probably the most powerful right now, with a lot of faculty support and fun knacks.
Gear? Anything you can do with gear, you can, like, by definition, do with anything you can buy or find. It's flexible, but not overly powerful, because of the way the investments work. You're not going to be manifesting level+1 gear easily because you have to pay for it with level-1 credits. The knacks are pretty underwhelming, too. Esoteric Edge sucks, Heavy Weapon Edge is far too high a level to be useful, and, at 10th level, Adaptable Weaponry gives you weapon traits you probably could have gotten at 1st level.
I mean, Gear Array is handy, and you can do fun stuff with it. Don't get me wrong, but it does not overmatch the other two by any stretch of the imagination.
The Nanocyte's main gimmick is the Gear Array.Says who ? I don't necessarily like it but if there's one "Main gimmick", of all three arrays it's probably the Cloud. It just gets the most, more efficient stuff. I also expect (and hope) the goal to be having all 3 fairly balanced.Well, if it's the case, then the Sheath and Cloud Arrays should get as much utility as the Gear Array.
Right now, there's little to no incentive to use either of those.
A measly bonus to Reflex saving throws and skill checks does NOT equate to getting extra forms, just like getting a flat concealment purcentage. Yeah, the concealment stops at 20%.
...
+1, plus one more per 3 levels is NOT a "measly bonus." The skills are also flexible, with up to 10 choices if you get Versatile Nanites. Like, that is a REALLY powerful ability, PLUS Initiative if you get Agile Host. Add in Swarm Strike and you have a very dangerous melee opponent.
Except I need to spend 3 Knacks to get those instead of already being part of the Array...
Cloud is probably the most powerful right now, with a lot of faculty support and fun knacks.
Again I need Knacks.
Gear? Anything you can do with gear, you can, like, by definition, do with anything you can buy or find. It's flexible, but not overly powerful, because of the way the investments work. You're not going to be manifesting level+1 gear easily because you have to pay for it with level-1 credits. The knacks are pretty underwhelming, too. Esoteric Edge sucks, Heavy Weapon Edge is far too high a level to be useful, and, at 10th level, Adaptable Weaponry gives you weapon traits you probably could have gotten at 1st level.
Except that I get extra forms as I level up, not with an Extra Form knack.
I mean, Gear Array is handy, and you can do fun stuff with it. Don't get me wrong, but it does not overmatch the other two by any stretch of the imagination.
See it like this: everytime the Gear Array can add a form, the other two should get something equivalent.
Sheath Array, by itself, with no knacks, is ONLY the most versatile of the class insight bonuses outside the clearly broken Operative, allowing you to choose two out of four whenever you activate it (plus Reflex), and only beaten for best progression by the Mystic. Let's recap: second best flexibility, second best progression. How is that not as good or better than adding an extra under=leveled gun to your repertoire every few levels?
Meanwhile, the cloud array is creeping over more and more of the battlefield as you level, synergizing with your faculties (leaving knacks out of it as you insist) to greater and greater effect. Basically you just keep adding riders and affecting the terrain to an extent that a witchwarper would be jealous of.
I don't understand how somehow Gear Array is supposed to be more powerful than the others when all it adds are lateral improvements in versatility. Yeah, it's good, but, per the rules, I can go buy a Level+2 gun from the store on Absolom Station and have more raw power than I can juice out of my gear array.
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I don't understand how somehow Gear Array is supposed to be more powerful than the others when all it adds are lateral improvements in versatility. Yeah, it's good, but, per the rules, I can go buy a Level+2 gun from the store on Absolom Station and have more raw power than I can juice out of my gear array.
Don't forget the lack of fusions and attachments for gear array weapons.
I don't understand how somehow Gear Array is supposed to be more powerful than the others when all it adds are lateral improvements in versatility. Yeah, it's good, but, per the rules, I can go buy a Level+2 gun from the store on Absolom Station and have more raw power than I can juice out of my gear array.Don't forget the lack of fusions and attachments for gear array weapons.
Excellent point, and one I hope gets addressed in the final version.
Accessories should not be a problem for a nanocyte to make. If they keep some sort of investment mechanic, as long as the final weapon comes in under cost with the attachments, you're golden.
Fusions are trickier; I wonder if you could make like Adaptive Biochains for cybernetic/biotech augmentations and have fusions that are entirely technological for a greater cost (which would then be handled with the investment mechanic), or have tech "fusion seals" and allow you to form weapons around them without waiting 24 hours for them to take.
That said, just the ability to have apply fusion seals without the wait time when forming a weapon would work better instead of having to create a new kind of item to fix it.
While your idea is good, remember that this class is coming out in a whole book of tech-based gear and abilities. What you're saying is kinda like saying a Vanguard should just be able to take a move action to get a bonus to a particular enemy's attacks, instead of adding shields to the Character Operations Manual. Techno-fusions very well could be a thing introduced in that book. Remember that Sufficiently Advanced Technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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I was about to say something about sleeping turning arrays off, but having double-checked it turns out being asleep is not being unconscious? Good, if strange.
Still, locking down your array for one single piece of gear is highly counterproductive : you still need to have paid for it, and you're now preventing yourself from using any array.
Of course I mention fusions as an issue for array weapons but it's mostly the old issues with fusion seals, rather than anything specific to the Nanocyte. It just happens to make things worse for the gear array.
Right now, there's little to no incentive to use either of those.[meaning cloud and sheath]
Ah, that's why we can't understand each other. What I don't get is why you value Gear Array made weapons so highly above regular ones.
What do you see that I'm missing here?What makes them so much better than (to stick with your example) a one in five miss chance that affects only those you chose ?
(in case my second language english betrays me here : am not trolling, but honestly curious)
On another note, I don't get the "I need Knacks for that" argument.
You have knacks. You're going to spend part of them on whatever you choose to focus on anyway. Even if you're all about the gear.
Someone relying on array Heavy guns/armor (and why wouldn't you) will also need or benefit from a Knack, and Knacks and Disciplines (to a lesser degree) are the one way you'll have to make your weapons better (since fusions and accessories are out)... What part of this makes those options a Cloud and Sheath only concern ?
Gear Array needs new major forms to stay relevant, because weapons don't age well in this system. Minor forms are more about adding pure versatility, but I have no issue with these.
I might be giving a different impression with all this talk but I don't hate Gear Array, far from it : I love it. It's part of what I hoped for and expected from the class. It's a huge boon to the class versatility, as it should be (although I do believe we need a bunch more technological/personal items and cybernetic augmentations to really make it shine).
It's just that I really don't see the point of GArray weapons as the core of a Nanocyte's offense. It's not good enough.
I'm not even sure it's a bad thing : it's already (potentially) the most versatile of all arrays, it doesn't need to be the best at everything.
Here's how I would improve the other arrays to make them on par with the Gear Array:
Sheath
* Everytime your skill bonus increases by 1, you can add a new skill, from the list given by Versatile Nanites (Bluff, Disguise, Engineering, Medicine, Perception, or Piloting.)
* Everytime your skill bonus increases by 1, you can apply it to an extra skill, and not being stuck with only 2 skills when you shape it.
* Starting at 2nd level, you gain Agile Host for free.
* Starting at 10th level, you gain Alacritous Form for free.
* Give one or 2 Knacks for the array, because right now, 3 of them are for Cloud and 1 of them is for Gear.
Cloud
* At 11th, 15th and 19th level, the miss chance becomes 25%, 30% and 35%, respectively.
* At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, the distance you can cover within the cloud using the guarded step increases by 5 feet, up to your base speed, like Omnipresent Form.
* At 6th level, you gain Hungry Nanites for free.
Even for Gear, I would add these.
* The ability to form a Form and temporarily keep it formed in Sheath or Cloud Array.
* Ditch Esoteric Edge and Heavy Weapon Edge, and just have you be able to form weapons if you are proficient. You have the Heavy Weapon Proficiency feat? You can form heavy weapons.
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Here's how I would improve the other arrays to make them on par with the Gear Array:
Wow, alright. We're still curious about why you think Gear Array is superior to the others, when it's typically under-leveled and without accessories or fusions.
Sheath
* Everytime your skill bonus increases by 1, you can add a new skill, from the list given by Versatile Nanites (Bluff, Disguise, Engineering, Medicine, Perception, or Piloting.)
...why not just take Versatile Nanites if you want more skill choices?
* Everytime your skill bonus increases by 1, you can apply it to an extra skill, and not being stuck with only 2 skills when you shape it.
"Only two skills..." Most classes are lucky if they get an insight bonus to two skills, and they don't generally get to choose which two on the fly.
* Starting at 2nd level, you gain Agile Host for free.
* Starting at 10th level, you gain Alacritous Form for free.
Is it Christmas? It seems like you're trying to turn the nanocyte into an Operative.
* Give one or 2 Knacks for the array, because right now, 3 of them are for Cloud and 1 of them is for Gear.
...because you just gave them all the sheath array knacks for free?
Cloud
* At 11th, 15th and 19th level, the miss chance becomes 25%, 30% and 35%, respectively.
That is absurdly powerful.
* At 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter, the distance you can cover within the cloud using the guarded step increases by 5 feet, up to your base speed, like Omnipresent Form.
A free 18th level knack at 3rd level?
Even for Gear, I would add these.
* The ability to form a Form and temporarily keep it formed in Sheath or Cloud Array.
Like Manifold Array, which Nanocytes get at 7th level?
* Ditch Esoteric Edge and Heavy Weapon Edge, and just have you be able to form weapons if you are proficient. You have the Heavy Weapon Proficiency feat? You can form heavy weapons.
While I don't like how those knacks work right now, you're asking for a strict downgrade (which you may be, though it isn't how I read your post). You can already make any weapon, cybernetic augmentation or technological item of the correct cost/level, regardless of proficiency. Those edges exist so you don't have to spend feats on proficiency, and to let you immediately get a useful form of the listed type. Heavy Weapon Edge has the added bonus of allowing you to disregard the Strength investment to use heavy weapons.
...why not just take Versatile Nanites if you want more skill choices?
"Only two skills..." Most classes are lucky if they get an insight bonus to two skills, and they don't generally get to choose which two on the fly.
Is it Christmas? It seems like you're trying to turn the nanocyte into an Operative.
7 Major forms for the Gear Array... so how about 7 or 6 actual innate benefits for the Sheath Array?
That is absurdly powerful.
It,s called scaling.
A free 18th level knack at 3rd level?
What so powerful about Guarded Step again to warrant such a short distance?
Like Manifold Array, which Nanocytes get at 7th level?
Ok, I'll give you this one. My bad.
7 Major forms for the Gear Array... so how about 7 or 6 actual innate benefits for the Sheath Array?
7 Major forms that can't be used at once if they're anywhere close to the level cap.
Major forms that are very likely behind your level and much worse than looted guns.
Besides, the sheath array starts with three benefits immediately, and between faculties and knacks, can pick up many more.
No, that's not like the gear array's multiple forms that they get for free, but honestly? The sheath array seems like a much more useful buff in the actual play.
I foresee myself using the major forms to summon utility augmentations more than I see it as my actual weapon. After all my actual weapon probably has fusions, a bipod, and a null space stock on it, and my gear array weapon doesn't.
That is absurdly powerful.It,s called scaling.
I would echo that this is absurdly powerful. Flat miss chance is multiplied with the miss chance from to hit vs AC. A flat, easy to get 35% miss chance is exceptionally OP. Hell, I'm iffy with it being 20% as easy as it is to get. My CON based gray player was practically unkillable being able to ignore 1/5 of the hits he would have otherwise taken.
What so powerful about Guarded Step again to warrant such a short distance?
What you are describing is a player taking a move action to move with no AoO as a swift action. That's not an early level ability. It deserved being a nearly capstone ability, especially with the nanocyte's move action hungry action economy.
I did not see it but what about a form that lets your nanites infect tech? Allows you to control vehicles, pilot starships, hack and use computers remotely and hack and control robots. In the vein of terminator 3 and 5. Not sure if these would be knacks or a full on tree.
What so powerful about Guarded Step again to warrant such a short distance?What you are describing is a player taking a move action to move with no AoO as a swift action. That's not an early level ability. It deserved being a nearly capstone ability, especially with the nanocyte's move action hungry action economy.
Guarded Step is a move action, though, not a swift? Because Nanocyte is so hungry for move actions, the bonus five feet you get to Guarded Step feels kind of useless. The only time it matters is when you're being melee'd on a ranged build by something with reach, and your cloud is already in a position to allow it.
I do agree that a lot of the proposed changes are too generous, though.
What so powerful about Guarded Step again to warrant such a short distance?What you are describing is a player taking a move action to move with no AoO as a swift action. That's not an early level ability. It deserved being a nearly capstone ability, especially with the nanocyte's move action hungry action economy.Guarded Step is a move action, though, not a swift? Because Nanocyte is so hungry for move actions, the bonus five feet you get to Guarded Step feels kind of useless. The only time it matters is when you're being melee'd on a ranged build by something with reach, and your cloud is already in a position to allow it.
I do agree that a lot of the proposed changes are too generous, though.
Since major forms can be augmentations, I can technically have all of them active at once. I can have multiple squares covered by the cloud.
But having more than 2 skills being enhanced by a bonus is too much? Yeah right... slap Versatile Nanites into the base Sheath Array, so you have more than 4 skills to choose from, and have that bonus applied to more than 2 skills every time the bonus increases. That means that you get a bonus to 3 skills at 3rd level, 4 skills at 7th, 5 skills at 11th, and so on.
I really don't not picture a Nanocyte constantly resetting its Sheath Array because it needs 2 different skills every 2 minutes...
Also, if Heavy Weapon Edge grants you Heavy Weapon Proficiency with extra damage, then Swarm Strike should grant you Improved Unarmed Strike.
Esoteric Edge is borderline useless, because 1) it doesn't apply to Sniper Weapons and 2) there is no useful special weapon, only shurikens and bows, and no you cannot copy an arrow in order to provide unlimited ammunition.
Since major forms can be augmentations, I can technically have all of them active at once. I can have multiple squares covered by the cloud.
But having more than 2 skills being enhanced by a bonus is too much? Yeah right... slap Versatile Nanites into the base Sheath Array, so you have more than 4 skills to choose from, and have that bonus applied to more than 2 skills every time the bonus increases. That means that you get a bonus to 3 skills at 3rd level, 4 skills at 7th, 5 skills at 11th, and so on.
I really don't not picture a Nanocyte constantly resetting its Sheath Array because it needs 2 different skills every 2 minutes...
Eh, the limit of two skills is pretty fair and it's a reasonable soft limitation on how long you can have a single surged sheath active for.
Consider Malignant Mist. If you use it on cloud, it lasts for the duration of the cloud. How long does the cloud last? Well, if you want to move it between fights, you need to spend your move action shuffling the cloud alongside you, moving at half speed or less, and it's damaging to your allies and bystanders. If you use it on your sheath, it lasts for the duration of the cloud. How long does the sheath last? Until you disable it for another form. If you're just given tons of skills all the time, then that's always all day.
Or, consider the balance with other full-BAB classes. Solarian can only switch their bonus between two different skills until 11th (and it's a minute instead of a move action), and which point they get two pairs to switch between. They only get more skills at 19th and 20th, which seems fair because they got no skills at 1st and 2nd. Vanguard is a small number of static skills, and only ever +2. Soldier gets no skill boosts.
Also, if Heavy Weapon Edge grants you Heavy Weapon Proficiency with extra damage, then Swarm Strike should grant you Improved Unarmed Strike.
You're comparing a second-level feat with a sixth-level feat. I'd rather have Swarm Strike stay second level (so that I can build around Con-to-accuracy) and outsource some of its power to a feat, rather than have it moved to sixth level just so they can balance it against Heavy Weapon Edge.
Esoteric Edge is borderline useless, because 1) it doesn't apply to Sniper Weapons and 2) there is no useful special weapon, only shurikens and bows, and no you cannot copy an arrow in order to provide unlimited ammunition.
Special weapons aren't worth grabbing, I agree. It'd be cool to have the space used for sniper weapons, unless we are getting some more special weapons.
Since major forms can be augmentations, I can technically have all of them active at once.Not sure how you're reaching that conclusion, it says a single piece of equipment per activation of gear array and you can have at most 3 arrays active at once.
If that's intended, then the Gear Array just became useless...
You should be able to manifest multiple forms, provide you have free hands and slots. Again, since it can form augmentations, I should be able to have an augmented eye, 2 arms and 2 legs in addition of a melee and a ranged weapon all at once.
Also, if Heavy Weapon Edge grants you Heavy Weapon Proficiency with extra damage, then Swarm Strike should grant you Improved Unarmed Strike.You're comparing a second-level feat with a sixth-level feat. I'd rather have Swarm Strike stay second level (so that I can build around Con-to-accuracy) and outsource some of its power to a feat, rather than have it moved to sixth level just so they can balance it against Heavy Weapon Edge.It's been brought up in a couple other threads, but Heavy Weapons Edge would be better served as a 2nd-level Knack or have Esoteric and Heavy Weapons Edge merged into a single, 2nd-levle Knack:
Weapon Edge: Choose from Heavy Weapons, Sniper Weapons, or 2 Special Weapons. You gain proficiency with the chosen weapons. At 3rd level, you gain weapon specialization with the chosen weapons just as if your class granted proficiency. When you gain this Knack, you can replace one Major Form with a weapon from the chosen category.
You can select this knack multiple times, each time choosing a different weapon category or 2 new Special Weapons. If Heavy Weapons are chosen, you add your Constitution modifier to your Strength score for the purpose of wielding heavy weapons formed from your gear array without penalty.
The fact that you need a Knack to form these weapons is just dumb. If I'm already proficient with Heavy Weapons for instance, I shouldn't have to take a Knack just to be able to form one. If anything, you should get an additional bonus if you have both the Knack AND the proficiency feat.
Also, again, special weapons aren't really that interesting to get. You only have the net, shurikens and bows (not arrows). If you could form an arrow (at will) as a Major Form, maybe the bow could be decent (if you can get pass the fact that Diamond-edge arrows are 12th level items, and Molecular Rift arrows are 18th level). Same with the shuriken: if you can form one and create as many as you wish, then it would be good.
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If that's intended, then the Gear Array just became useless...
You should be able to manifest multiple forms, provide you have free hands and slots. Again, since it can form augmentations, I should be able to have an augmented eye, 2 arms and 2 legs in addition of a melee and a ranged weapon all at once.
Why did it become useless?
Gear Array lets you spend once for access to multiple different things up to that cost. I can have two different situational augments that I only bring up when needed, competing slot augments I switch between, and all that using the money I spent on my weapon. I can have a ranged and melee weapon that I switch between as a move action (swift with a surge) without needing to carry the bulk of both.
Getting to spend once to get all of those at the same time is a much stronger ability.
As it is, it's already the class's big out-of-combat ability, and can be built around as a combat focus. If you need multiple items at a time, you can use multiple arrays on it, and it doesn't take penalties for being treated as lower level.
The fact that you need a Knack to form these weapons is just dumb. If I'm already proficient with Heavy Weapons for instance, I shouldn't have to take a Knack just to be able to form one. If anything, you should get an additional bonus if you have both the Knack AND the proficiency feat.
Also, again, special weapons aren't really that interesting to get. You only have the net, shurikens and bows (not arrows). If you could form an arrow (at will) as a Major Form, maybe the bow could be decent (if you can get pass the fact that Diamond-edge arrows are 12th level items, and Molecular Rift arrows are 18th level). Same with the shuriken: if you can form one and create as many as you wish, then it would be good.
You don't need a knack to form heavy weapons; you can just take the proficiency feat. (You can even form them without proficiency if you want.) The knack gives you proficiency, specialization, and the bonus of having an easier time wielding heavy weapons with a gear array.
I imagine the reason there's no sniper knack is because unlike heavy weapons (where you can mitigate the strength requirements) and special weapons (where you can mitigate the fact that the feat only gives you one special weapon), sniper weapons don't have a lot to remove without just stealing Operative's shtick and reducing the aiming requirements.
Yeah, no interesting special weapons yet. I presume there'll be some in the book. (As for the bows/arrows, that's just the same as any of the guns needing ammo, except you never have to spend an action on reloading.)
If that's intended, then the Gear Array just became useless...
You should be able to manifest multiple forms, provide you have free hands and slots. Again, since it can form augmentations, I should be able to have an augmented eye, 2 arms and 2 legs in addition of a melee and a ranged weapon all at once.
Why did it become useless?
Gear Array lets you spend once for access to multiple different things up to that cost. I can have two different situational augments that I only bring up when needed, competing slot augments I switch between, and all that using the money I spent on my weapon. I can have a ranged and melee weapon that I switch between as a move action (swift with a surge) without needing to carry the bulk of both.
Getting to spend once to get all of those at the same time is a much stronger ability.
As it is, it's already the class's big out-of-combat ability, and can be built around as a combat focus. If you need multiple items at a time, you can use multiple arrays on it, and it doesn't take penalties for being treated as lower level.
As I said, since it applies to augmentations, you shoudl be able to form more than 1. Yes, all your major forms can be weapons, but since augmentations are eligible, you should be able to form 2, 3 or even 7 forms at once.
You make it sound like a Nanocyte can just wish a weapon or an augmentation out of its nanites.
"I'll take a Dermal Plating, and tomorrow, I'll take an Optical Laser."
Doesn't the Nanocyte need to break down and assimilate these augmentations in the first place? If I must pay with credits for these, you can make sure that I'd like to form them all at once.
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You do not need to absorb the exact thing you end up manifesting. What it is you absorb doesn't matter, really, only its value.
That's your limiting factor : you absorb a single 5000 credit technological item (and a 10% UPB supplement), meaning you can learn forms of that value, and then manifest any of them, but only one at a time.
And there's enough discussions around here about the issues of the investement mechanic that I won't reiterate.
Adaptability is the name of the game with the gear array.
For someone who clearly loves the Gear Array as much as you do, you continue display shockingly little knowledge about how Gear Array works.As I said, since it applies to augmentations, you shoudl be able to form more than 1. Yes, all your major forms can be weapons, but since augmentations are eligible, you should be able to form 2, 3 or even 7 forms at once.
You make it sound like a Nanocyte can just wish a weapon or an augmentation out of its nanites.
"I'll take a Dermal Plating, and tomorrow, I'll take an Optical Laser."
Doesn't the Nanocyte need to break down and assimilate these augmentations in the first place? If I must pay with credits for these, you can make sure that I'd like to form them all at once.
It's a playtest, so nothing is set.
A Nanocyte DOES wish a weapon or augmentation out of their nanites, so long as they have eaten enough UPBs to afford them. When they choose new Major Forms or swap out old Major Forms, they can choose any technological weapon or augmentation with a level equal or less than to their new level + 1 and with a price equal to or less than their current Nanite Investment. As long it is within those two parameters, it doesn't matter whether or not they are proficient, whether they have previously absorbed it, or even if they would realistically know it exists. Same with Minor Forms, you don't need to have absorbed them to choose them.
I stand corrected... but that still highlights the issue that a Nanocyte in Gear Array cannot form more than 1 form. Can I get at least 1 form per 6 levels or something?
With the way Nanite Investment works, if you paid for and ate all the augmentations and weapons you formed, you are wasting all credits spent on anything other than the most expensive one. At that point, it would be more effective to just buy and install the augmentations you wanted instead of using a Major Form on them
Well... if you cannot manifest more than 1 form, then fine, that makes sense.
If you were to review the playtest (or several previous responses in this thread), you would see that at level 7, the Nanocyte gets Manifold Array as a class feature, allowing them to form a secondary Array that calculates its effects by [current level] - 4. At level 15, Manifold Array grants a tertiary Array with effects equal to [current level] - 8. This allows for multiple Gear Arrays to be used, thus allowing for multiple Major Forms to be used.
Hold on... you can shape the same array multiple times?!?
Sure, why not? Nothing in Manifold Array prevents it.
That said, there's downsides to that.
Double/triple Sheath is flat-out not going to stack with itself.
But you could have double Clouds - presumably in different squares as doubling up is, again, likely not going to have much benefits.
Or triple Gear Arrays, the downside here being the effective level loss : you don't want Gear to be your -8 array, unless you've made sure to keep low level forms specifically for that purpose.
Sure, why not? Nothing in Manifold Array prevents it.
That said, there's downsides to that.
Double/triple Sheath is flat-out not going to stack with itself.
But you could have double Clouds - presumably in different squares as doubling up is, again, likely not going to have much benefits.
Or triple Gear Arrays, the downside here being the effective level loss : you don't want Gear to be your -8 array, unless you've made sure to keep low level forms specifically for that purpose.
I honestly thought that you selected one array as primary, a second as secondary and the last one as tertiary, such as "Gear 1st, Sheath 2nd and Cloud 3rd", not "Gear 1st, Gear 2nd and Shealth 3rd".
Sure, why not? Nothing in Manifold Array prevents it.
That said, there's downsides to that.
Double/triple Sheath is flat-out not going to stack with itself.
But you could have double Clouds - presumably in different squares as doubling up is, again, likely not going to have much benefits.
Or triple Gear Arrays, the downside here being the effective level loss : you don't want Gear to be your -8 array, unless you've made sure to keep low level forms specifically for that purpose.
The effective level loss doesn't do anything to Gear Array; your only limitation on what you create is what forms you know, not what level those forms are.
As things stand, it's a great option for secondary and/or tertiary forms. I think that's pretty reasonable, since your gear array is also the easiest to "replace"; you can just use a regular gun and keep your gear array for situational stuff, cheap backup weapons, etc.
Oh, right you are. I forgot what I myself pointed out earlier : only the worth in credits matters. As long as your investment covers it, you can make it.
So not only was I wrong, it's in fact the exact opposite : you absolutely want your Gear Array to be your second or third, because it is the one array that is entirely unaffected by what is a somewhat brutal penalty for the 2 others.
Interesting. Thanks for the correction.