I'm trying to figure out how to build a monk as a competitive martial class meaning damage dealer or defender or something effective. So far the monk is similar to it's PF1 counterpart where it is in this weird place of being able to do a lot of things, but none of them particularly well other than move around real fast.
I can somewhat see a monk being a martial battlefield controller with maneuvers. I tried that. For some reason hitting against Reflex and Fortitude saves is often as hard as hitting against AC. Those maneuvers have the same attack penalty as multiple attacks. So it's really only effective to try them on the first attack. If you use a maneuver, you take away from your damage potential to maybe set up another martial for a better chance to hit. Is there something I'm missing that is likely a good way to set this up?
Defensively a monk eventually gets Legendary Unarmored Defense and good saves. This seems like it could make for a good defender type class. But they lack the Champion's ability to defend against damage. This makes it so they don't have much of a way to attract the focus of the enemy onto them because a defensive monk build is an even weaker damage dealer than a maneuver build.
So what is the monk good at? Does anyone have any good monk builds for a party role that isn't done better by another class? What are some of the more effective monk players you've seen?
ive posed this same question. tbh nothing ever came from it.
you play the monk because you like the monk. it will do less damage than fighter/barbarian at higher levels, while having less ooc utilty than a rogue or investigator.
they seem to revolve around movement and playing with the action economy, lots of fun and good at staying alive potentially.
but your not gonna beat others in damage unless they are unlucky/made their character poorly.
your not going to rival ooc utility of a rogue or investigator, not really even a swashbuckler.
your not going to rival the ooc utility of a caster
stunning strike is nice when it works.
I can't complain too much. PF1 monk was an unfocused, all over the place mess people played mostly for stylistic regions than effectiveness. I guess PF2 continued that tradition of the monk as this sort of class you play more for style than effectiveness because you like the idea of a martial arts character.
It wasn't until the Brawler came out that you could build a monk for damage that could hammer hard enough compared to other martials.
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PF2 Monks are really effective at several things and I'm not sure why you think otherwise, really.
All martials put out pretty similar damage output, including Monk (okay, Champion is a bit behind), and Monks have one of the highest ACs in the game to boot, on top of which they're the most mobile class in the game and one of the best at combat maneuver stuff, as well as having a solid list of combat oriented Focus Spells if you want them.
Really, all they lack is a good Reaction, and they can grab Stand Still at 4th and fix that.
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I've played with a Tiger Style Dex-Based Monk until 11th level in a party with an Ranger (dual wielding), Wizard and Bomber Alchemist (retired and replaced with a 2h Redeemer). I'm pretty sure I've carried some fights and helped our party get through some insanely challenging encounters (you can look up some of my accounts of this on reddit), but basically it happened 3 times with several encounters happening at the same time and we pulled through, despite having an Alchemist (a mix of unlucky player and the class' overall weakness). The fights were though as hell but I never felt at any moment that my monk wasn't dealing enough damage or even feeling dissatisfied with it (this is disregarding the fact that I like the character I'm playing).
I'm pretty critical of PF2e in several aspects, specially when some classes don't receive the same treatment as Paizo's pet classes (Fighter and Rogue), but I can say that there's nothing wrong or weak about the monk. In fact, I'll answer your question directly:
The Monk: How do you build it?
Anyway you want. The class is one of the very few that is satisfying to build regardless of the path you choose.
I think the only suggestion I can give you is: Throw away your PF1e glasses. They're tainting you perception of what is good and what's not, that's why you keep thinking that's weak, when it is not.
You never appreciate your godly speed and mobility options when you put a Monk with Winding Flow(mine) in the same battle with character with 20ft speed (The Redeemer). The freedom of movement, the free hands all the time, the occasional trip/grapple without worries if you have the fight weapon of free hands, the frequent 20+ damage with the option of going "Nova" (at my level I can roll for damage 2d8+6+1d6cold+1d12 serrating +2d6 Ki Strike that can target weaknesses).
My character has been consistently performing well despite several sessions with awful rolls and I trivialized some encounters when I was rolling high.
Feedback from experience: Stunning Fist is nice but is nowhere near as good as it appears on paper. Winding Flow is amazing. if you're a Tiger Style Monk then it is even better.
PF2 Monks are really effective at several things and I'm not sure why you think otherwise, really.
All martials put out pretty similar damage output, including Monk (okay, Champion is a bit behind), and Monks have one of the highest ACs in the game to boot, on top of which they're the most mobile class in the game and one of the best at combat maneuver stuff, as well as having a solid list of combat oriented Focus Spells if you want them.
Really, all they lack is a good Reaction, and they can grab Stand Still at 4th and fix that.
Martials do not put out the same damage. Not sure why you would make such a false assertion that empirically false in real game play.
What are they effective at? What is their schtick? That's what I'm asking. Let me know what they're good at, so I can use those options.
The Monk: How do you build it?Anyway you want. The class is one of the very few that is satisfying to build regardless of the path you choose.
This would not be productive when I play with players focusing on building optimal characters.
I think the only suggestion I can give you is: Throw away your PF1e glasses. They're tainting you perception of what is good and what's not, that's why you keep thinking that's weak, when it is not.
No. I go by data and math. Not PF1. The math and data is showing the monk is not on par for damage with other martials. I am trying to figure out what they are good at from a mathematical perspective. They do not have the damage dealing tools to match other martials in damage on a consistent basis.
Monk AC can get quite high which is why I think a defender role would be good.
They have good action economy with Flurry and can use maneuvers, which leads me to think they can use maneuvers to set up battle.
Winding Flow does look like it could be useful as it allows even greater mobility.
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Martials do not put out the same damage. Not sure why you would make such a false assertion that empirically false in real game play.
Mathematical analysis. Found here for one example.
And I said 'similar' not 'the same'. Some Monks are above everyone when talking about how much damage they can do with a single action (because Flurry) and a bit behind Fighters and Barbarians if comparing them using two or three actions all to attack, but they're not disastrously behind or anything, and are above every Class except Fighter and Barbarian analyzed above (Ranger or Swashbuckler might be above them as well, but I sort of doubt it).
What are they effective at? What is their schtick? That's what I'm asking. Let me know what they're good at, so I can use those options.
Monks are very mobile and very good at cheating the game's action economy in various ways, both getting extra actions themselves (most notably Flurry) and denying them to others (with things like Stunning Fist or Stand Still). They make great skirmishers and are good at hit-and-run stuff for precisely those reasons, but can also stand and fight directly if needed.
They're also a bit better at combat maneuvers since they always have a free hand. Mechanically, they also benefit from shields, since they often have the actions to spare to raise one and Shield Block is only a single General Feat away, and can use shields with a d10 weapon if going Dragon Style, something few others can manage.
This is a build I'm looking at. Defensive build aimed at acting in a role similar to a Champion to set up the fighter. Knock people down with trip or grapple them, rely on a strong defensive build.
1st: Crane Stance
1st: Natural Ambition (Ki Strike)
2nd: Champion Dedication
4th: Flurry of Maneuvers
6th: Champion’s Reaction (Paladin)
8th: Crane Flutter
10th: Wind Jump
12th: Diamond Soul or Meditative Focus
14th: Meditative Focus or Diamond Soul
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Ki Form
20th: Golden Body
Martials do not put out the same damage. Not sure why you would make such a false assertion that empirically false in real game play.Mathematical analysis. Found here for one example.
And I said 'similar' not 'the same'. Some Monks are above everyone when talking about how much damage they can do with a single action (because Flurry) and a bit behind Fighters and Barbarians if comparing them using two or three actions all to attack, but they're not disastrously behind or anything, and are above every Class except Fighter and Barbarian analyzed above (Ranger or Swashbuckler might be above them as well, but I sort of doubt it).
What are they effective at? What is their schtick? That's what I'm asking. Let me know what they're good at, so I can use those options.Monks are very mobile and very good at cheating the game's action economy in various ways, both getting extra actions themselves (most notably Flurry) and denying them to others (with things like Stunning Fist or Stand Still). They make great skirmishers and are good at hit-and-run stuff for precisely those reasons, but can also stand and fight directly if needed.
They're also a bit better at combat maneuvers since they always have a free hand. Mechanically, they also benefit from shields, since they often have the actions to spare to raise one and Shield Block is only a single General Feat away, and can use shields with a d10 weapon if going Dragon Style, something few others can manage.
I looked at that analysis. Even that analysis using White Room math showed the monk substantially behind in all but a few areas. In real game play interacting in a group environment, that width increases. Monks are not great damage dealers. They don't have the tools to match damage dealing focused classes. But that alone does not make the class bad, so I don't want to make that impression.
Combat maneuvers is one area where I'm looking. I think that has some chance to be good. Just have to not focus too much on a single one like I was doing. I was so focused on trip that I forgot that Grapple can operate similarly to trip making a target flat-footed, thus setting up the fighter. I can attack Reflex and Fortitude saves with maneuvers.
This is a build I'm looking at. Defensive build aimed at acting in a role similar to a Champion to set up the fighter. Knock people down with trip and rely on a strong defensive build.
1st: Crane Stance
1st: Natural Ambition (Ki Strike)
2nd: Champion Dedication
4th: Flurry of Maneuvers
6th: Champion’s Reaction (Paladin)
8th: Crane Flutter
10th: Wind Jump
12th: Diamond Soul or Meditative Focus
14th: Meditative Focus or Diamond Soul
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Ki Form
20th: Golden Body
If you want to make a defensive tripping monk you'd be better off Taking Wolf Stance and using a shield than taking Crane stance.
Since you're going champion for the reaction taking Crane Flutter kinda works against you having a reaction to help allies (can't remember if you count as your own ally or not).
Wolf Drag lets you make an attack that knocks prone on hit without having to make a trip check and only counts as 1 Attack for MAP. Which would let you trip/setup and do damage easier.
Wolf Drag->Ki Strike is also pretty solid damage.
This is a build I'm looking at. Defensive build aimed at acting in a role similar to a Champion to set up the fighter. Knock people down with trip and rely on a strong defensive build.
1st: Crane Stance
1st: Natural Ambition (Ki Strike)
2nd: Champion Dedication
4th: Flurry of Maneuvers
6th: Champion’s Reaction (Paladin)
8th: Crane Flutter
10th: Wind Jump
12th: Diamond Soul or Meditative Focus
14th: Meditative Focus or Diamond Soul
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Ki Form
20th: Golden Body
If you want to make a defensive tripping monk you'd be better off Taking Wolf Stance and using a shield than taking Crane stance.
Since you're going champion for the reaction taking Crane Flutter kinda works against you having a reaction to help allies (can't remember if you count as your own ally or not).
Wolf Drag lets you make an attack that knocks prone on hit without having to make a trip check and only counts as 1 Attack for MAP. Which would let you trip/setup and do damage easier.
Wolf Drag->Ki Strike is also pretty solid damage.
Monk with a shield? Seems not right. But rules wise is possible.
Let me think about this. Captain America was probably a monk, eh?
The Monk: How do you build it?Anyway you want. The class is one of the very few that is satisfying to build regardless of the path you choose.This would not be productive when I play with players focusing on building optimal characters.
I think the only suggestion I can give you is: Throw away your PF1e glasses. They're tainting you perception of what is good and what's not, that's why you keep thinking that's weak, when it is not.No. I go by data and math. Not PF1. The math and data is showing the monk is not on par for damage with other martials. I am trying to figure out what they are good at from a mathematical perspective. They do not have the damage dealing tools to match other martials in damage on a consistent basis.
Monk AC can get quite high which is why I think a defender role would be good.
They have good action economy with Flurry and can use maneuvers, which leads me to think they can use maneuvers to set up battle.
Winding Flow does look like it could be useful as it allows even greater mobility.
Data and math? So are you considering every thing that goes into a roll and taking steps to simulate different scenarios with limited amount of rolls? Or are you talking about just DPR math based on averages and nothing more?
Because if it's the latter, then that's the very reason why you think the class isn't doing fine. Also, not every class is supposed to do the exact same thing. Barbarians get the big damage, Fighters get good accuracy and lots of feats, Monks gets high mobility, Rangers gets lots of attacks. So there's a spectrum combat focus and I think we can all agree here that if one side was pure damage and combat focus we would have Barbarian and Fighter in the damage extreme while Rogues and Investigators would be on the Skill Extreme, every other class fall into some part of the spectrum.
Monks, IMO, fall almost in the middle, because most of their feats are focused on utility and mobility, but their bread and butter is insanely strong, that's why every Feat is compared to Flurry of Blows for those that only seek maximum DPR all the time, because the class has amazing basic attacks and a stellar class feature, everything else complement on enhances that. Unless you're being extremely unlucky, you can leverage a lot of the battlefield in your favor and dance in circles against enemies that very likely won't be having the same speed as you, they'll be expending two actions to reach you or using secondary attacks, but you'll have all the freedom and control of the fight. There's no basic DPR calculator that will tell you that, it also will not show you the amount of actions it took for you to flank someone or the freedom to use any maneuver without worrying about what kind of weapon you have to use.
Big numbers are always great to see, but it hardly shows the actual fight behind it, the little increments that give unseen advantages and movement, free hands and solid utility Feats offer benefits that aren't shown in a simple DPR graph that doesn't even account for dice variance.
If RPG's revolved around things either being the best at a specific aspects or not even existing at all, then we would only need to have three classes, Fighter, Rogue and Cleric. The best at fighting, the best at skills and the best at spellcasting because it includes healing.
This is a build I'm looking at. Defensive build aimed at acting in a role similar to a Champion to set up the fighter. Knock people down with trip and rely on a strong defensive build.
1st: Crane Stance
1st: Natural Ambition (Ki Strike)
2nd: Champion Dedication
4th: Flurry of Maneuvers
6th: Champion’s Reaction (Paladin)
8th: Crane Flutter
10th: Wind Jump
12th: Diamond Soul or Meditative Focus
14th: Meditative Focus or Diamond Soul
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Ki Form
20th: Golden Body
If you want to make a defensive tripping monk you'd be better off Taking Wolf Stance and using a shield than taking Crane stance.
Since you're going champion for the reaction taking Crane Flutter kinda works against you having a reaction to help allies (can't remember if you count as your own ally or not).
Wolf Drag lets you make an attack that knocks prone on hit without having to make a trip check and only counts as 1 Attack for MAP. Which would let you trip/setup and do damage easier.
Wolf Drag->Ki Strike is also pretty solid damage.
Monk with a shield? Seems not right. But rules wise is possible.
Let me think about this. Captain America was probably a monk, eh?
Possibly, although Fighters get Rebounding Toss and Ricochet Stance. So probably a Fighter/Martial Artist?
Iron Fist would be a monk, or Goku now that super Saiyan mode exists.
Edit: Also on your build, if you're going full support wouldn't Enlightened Presence be a solid choice?
I'm mostly not a huge fan of Quivering Palm. Flinging Blow, Disrupt Ki, Medusa's Wrath all seem more useful to me but it's pretty open.
The Monk: How do you build it?Anyway you want. The class is one of the very few that is satisfying to build regardless of the path you choose.This would not be productive when I play with players focusing on building optimal characters.
I think the only suggestion I can give you is: Throw away your PF1e glasses. They're tainting you perception of what is good and what's not, that's why you keep thinking that's weak, when it is not.No. I go by data and math. Not PF1. The math and data is showing the monk is not on par for damage with other martials. I am trying to figure out what they are good at from a mathematical perspective. They do not have the damage dealing tools to match other martials in damage on a consistent basis.
Monk AC can get quite high which is why I think a defender role would be good.
They have good action economy with Flurry and can use maneuvers, which leads me to think they can use maneuvers to set up battle.
Winding Flow does look like it could be useful as it allows even greater mobility.
Data and math? So are you considering every thing that goes into a roll and taking steps to simulate different scenarios with limited amount of rolls? Or are you talking about just DPR math based on averages and nothing more?
Because if it's the latter, then that's the very reason why you think the class isn't doing fine. Also, not every class is supposed to do the exact same thing. Barbarians get the big damage, Fighters get good accuracy and lots of feats, Monks gets high mobility, Rangers gets lots of attacks. So there's a spectrum combat focus and I think we can all agree here that if one side was pure damage and combat focus we would have Barbarian and Fighter in the damage extreme while Rogues and Investigators would be on the Skill Extreme, every other class fall into some part of the spectrum.
Monks, IMO, fall almost in the middle, because most...
Recorded data in real game scenarios. My players optimize,so the data I get it is generally from optimized characters working in an optimal group fashion.
Math based on how options should work in play, which is how my players optimize. My players look at what something does, then figure out how to shift the math in their favor to maximize the ability.
So far the monk has less abilities for pure damage in the scenario.
From a math perspective the monk has the following going for it:
1. Flurry of Maneuvers: They can use maneuvers with better action economy than other class.
2. Legendary Unarmored defense: Makes their AC on par with Champion.
3. Mobility: They can move around the battlefield better than anyone else. This isn't a great ability necessarily in a group as most martials you would be setting up with require you to stand in place for flanks or to share damage.
4. Flexible good saves.
I have to work around those strengths to make something interesting and effective.
In PF2, you don't count as your own ally (unlike PF1).
I'll also add to not underestimate how much mobility aids offense.
A Monk can get in extra swings before many others can engage, not just over distance, but vs. flyers/climbers/etc. too. And they can often disengage the same round which makes for good defense.
This is a bit dependent on GM style and battle environments, but since I prefer cinematic or dynamic settings, I value mobility a bunch.
I also find maneuver builds are subpar, best for use on subpar, non-monstrous enemies. Worth the Athletics and maybe a few feats that tie maneuvers to Strikes, but not doing much on their own unless there's good party synergy to exploit them.
Why are people knocking Stunning Fist on a Flurry Monk?
It's a strong albeit irregular carrier effect, yet on something you're already doing and only for a 2nd level feat. It should activate most rounds and succeed 1/3-1/2 the time. That's similar to many crit specs regularity, yet a better effect than most.
And I'd recommend Wholeness of Body if you're already picking up Ki abilities and want to focus on a defensive role. That's a significant boost to one's hit points and Monk's can afford the action. I admit there's the problem that I'd recommend far too many Monk feats if asked!
Could always build around Whirling Throw and grappling now that the new shadow stance helps with grapple.
starting 18str/16dex
1- ki strike
2- Crushing Grab
4- Flurry Of Maneuvers
6- Whirling Throw
8- Clinging Shadows
10- Sleeper Hold
12- meditative focus
14- Shadow's Web
16- Flinging Blow
18- Ki Form
20- Golden Body(if allowed)/Impossible technique.
grab everybody and toss them away, and if they get close fling them into each other!
From the sounds of it, you want a trip monk. A trip monk can be highly effective both for damage and locking enemies down (thereby 'tanking' in the sense of managing enemy aggro).
Basically, you combine trip with an agile stance and stunning fist. This means that the enemy loses an action to stunning fist, and they also spend an action standing up. So the enemy only has one action left, which basically makes them useless.
You make up for damage by routinely setting up reaction attacks with stand still (which triggers when an enemy stands up).
Your 'attack routines' look like this
1 action- flurry for damage and stunning fist.
2 action- Trip+flurry. With flat footed and an agile stance, your routine looks like 0 (trip)/-2/-6. The last hit is about as accurate as any other martial's second hit, so it is fine even with MAP.
Wolf drag is also an option if you manage to get a 3 action 'full attack' off on a routine basis. Wolf drag+flurry has much better MAP than Trip+flurry+a regular strike. But as a 2 action option, wolf drag isn't worth it compared to trip+flurry.
This is a build I'm looking at. Defensive build aimed at acting in a role similar to a Champion to set up the fighter. Knock people down with trip and rely on a strong defensive build.
1st: Crane Stance
1st: Natural Ambition (Ki Strike)
2nd: Champion Dedication
4th: Flurry of Maneuvers
6th: Champion’s Reaction (Paladin)
8th: Crane Flutter
10th: Wind Jump
12th: Diamond Soul or Meditative Focus
14th: Meditative Focus or Diamond Soul
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Ki Form
20th: Golden Body
If you want to make a defensive tripping monk you'd be better off Taking Wolf Stance and using a shield than taking Crane stance.
Since you're going champion for the reaction taking Crane Flutter kinda works against you having a reaction to help allies (can't remember if you count as your own ally or not).
Wolf Drag lets you make an attack that knocks prone on hit without having to make a trip check and only counts as 1 Attack for MAP. Which would let you trip/setup and do damage easier.
Wolf Drag->Ki Strike is also pretty solid damage.
Monk with a shield? Seems not right. But rules wise is possible.
Let me think about this. Captain America was probably a monk, eh?
Possibly, although Fighters get Rebounding Toss and Ricochet Stance. So probably a Fighter/Martial Artist?
Iron Fist would be a monk, or Goku now that super Saiyan mode exists.
Edit: Also on your build, if you're going full support wouldn't Enlightened Presence be a solid choice?
I'm mostly not a huge fan of Quivering Palm. Flinging Blow, Disrupt Ki, Medusa's Wrath all seem more useful to me but it's pretty open.
How come you don't like Quivering Palm? Medusa's Wrath has Incapacitation. Flinging blow grants a save too. Enlightened Resolve might be ok, but lots of ways to get those mental saves with feats and the like. Those mental spells usually grant a save every round.
How come you don't like Quivering Palm? Medusa's Wrath has Incapacitation. Flinging blow grants a save too. Enlightened Resolve might be ok, but lots of ways to get those mental saves with feats and the like. Those mental spells usually grant a save every round.This is a build I'm looking at. Defensive build aimed at acting in a role similar to a Champion to set up the fighter. Knock people down with trip and rely on a strong defensive build.
1st: Crane Stance
1st: Natural Ambition (Ki Strike)
2nd: Champion Dedication
4th: Flurry of Maneuvers
6th: Champion’s Reaction (Paladin)
8th: Crane Flutter
10th: Wind Jump
12th: Diamond Soul or Meditative Focus
14th: Meditative Focus or Diamond Soul
16th: Quivering Palm
18th: Ki Form
20th: Golden Body
If you want to make a defensive tripping monk you'd be better off Taking Wolf Stance and using a shield than taking Crane stance.
Since you're going champion for the reaction taking Crane Flutter kinda works against you having a reaction to help allies (can't remember if you count as your own ally or not).
Wolf Drag lets you make an attack that knocks prone on hit without having to make a trip check and only counts as 1 Attack for MAP. Which would let you trip/setup and do damage easier.
Wolf Drag->Ki Strike is also pretty solid damage.
Monk with a shield? Seems not right. But rules wise is possible.
Let me think about this. Captain America was probably a monk, eh?
Possibly, although Fighters get Rebounding Toss and Ricochet Stance. So probably a Fighter/Martial Artist?
Iron Fist would be a monk, or Goku now that super Saiyan mode exists.
Edit: Also on your build, if you're going full support wouldn't Enlightened Presence be a solid choice?
I'm mostly not a huge fan of Quivering Palm. Flinging Blow, Disrupt Ki, Medusa's Wrath all seem more useful to me but it's pretty open.
I figured that was the reason for skipping it, mental buffs are pretty plentiful.
Quivering Palm mostly because it takes a 3rd action to trigger the effect, which now that I'm writing this I realize lets you debuff/setup before using the 3rd action. But mostly that and incapacitation.
Medusa's wrath has incapacitation only on the ongoing save at the end of the enemy turn, so you're still getting slowed 1 or slowed 2 without Incap before the target gets to save.
Flinging Blow doesn't have Incapacitation at all which is nice. Knocks the enemy prone and if you line it up with another target it does an extra 2d6 to 2 targets. It's pretty much Strike + Trip + Shove (with improved knockback) for 2actions and only 1MAP.
If you're hasted you can Flinging Blow an adjacent enemy into a wall across the room, then Stride after them and Flurry them on the ground. Or knock them to the feet of the Fighter in the group if possible and let the Fighter AoO the target trying to stand up.
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If you really want to set up a Monk to control the battlefield in new and exciting ways, Wolf Style and Tangled Forest Stance are ridiculously good in tandem. Take Monastic Weaponry, use a bo staff, and enjoy your tripping Reach Immobilizing Stand Still chaos machine. Take Stunning Fist, and Fuse Stance at 20, and watch as you harass entire encounters in ways that your GM hates you for.
No. I go by data and math.You say, until someone presents data that contradicts your assertion, then suddenly it's meaningless. Weird.
Where was this data presented? Please, provide it. I certainly did not ignore the data produced quite a long time ago showing monks did weak damage in almost any other area than single action rounds where flurry gave them two attacks against one. That data is quite old and I was well aware of it.
So once again, please produce the data. I would be grateful to see it.
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The main shtick of the monk is flurry, allowing you to move in to combat, strike twice, and move back out. You're incredibly mobile, have better than average defenses, and because of the combo of flurry and movement can get out of position to be damaged in retaliation.
If you compare using all 3 actions to make strikes to the abilities of fighter, barbarian you're going to be behind, but not ridiculously so. You also have some interesting abilities for utility that other martial classes can't emulate.
The main shtick of the monk is flurry, allowing you to move in to combat, strike twice, and move back out. You're incredibly mobile, have better than average defenses, and because of the combo of flurry and movement can get out of position to be damaged in retaliation.
If you compare using all 3 actions to make strikes to the abilities of fighter, barbarian you're going to be behind, but not ridiculously so. You also have some interesting abilities for utility that other martial classes can't emulate.
And their abilities play with action economy/MAP more than almost any other class from what I've seen so far.
Tiger Slash, Wolf Drag, knockback strike, flinging blow, one inch punch. Are all attacks with extra effects but don't cause MAP to increase more than a normal strike. Then things like whirling throw which costs no MAP.
Tiger Slash, extra dmg + free shove.
Wolf Drag, fatal d12 + trip
Knockback, attack + shove
Flinging blow, attack + prone +shove + possible bonus dmg.
OiP, monk power attack, with millimeter punch it's power attack + movement +possible bonus dmg.
All of these are just 1 attack for MAP.
Also for 1MAP and 2actions a monk can grapple and throw an enemy 10-45ft + dmg.
Then there's the new stances that fiddle with action economy.
Gorilla pound is demoralize+strike+bonus damage, 1 action.
Stumbling stance, free feint on every flurry, no action.
Peafowl strut, step twice, then strike, 1action.
Heh with peafowl + winding flow you can start in front of an enemy, step twice to flank, strike, step away, stride across the room, Flurry another target.
So 3steps, 1 stride, 3 strikes. 1 turn no haste
Edit. I think since you're in peafowl stance technically if your 2nd flurry hits you could step as a free action. So 4 steps
PF2 Monks are really effective at several things and I'm not sure why you think otherwise, really.
All martials put out pretty similar damage output, including Monk (okay, Champion is a bit behind), and Monks have one of the highest ACs in the game to boot, on top of which they're the most mobile class in the game and one of the best at combat maneuver stuff, as well as having a solid list of combat oriented Focus Spells if you want them.
Really, all they lack is a good Reaction, and they can grab Stand Still at 4th and fix that.
The only issue with all that is it's hard to quantify those pro's to power, and he is very subjective to campaign, encounter and DM.
But I disagree on similar damage. A barbarian or fighter and even a rogue with the right setup is going to leave the monk in the dust with damage. I agree monk is closer to champion. Better damage but worse reaction use.
That isn't too say you cannot or shouldn't play a monk. They are fine. Your not gonna be a liability. But their strengths are not as easy to measure as just having ways to do really good damage.
Monks are pretty much the best at running interface against secondary targets. With high mobility, strong defenses, and decent nova potential they are fairly well equipped to burst down priority targets. They also have some pretty potent control effects.
In PFS I have seen monks completely jack up enemy spell casters that no one else in the party can get to. I think they are solid 5th or 6th party member. In a smaller group there are other bases I would want to cover first.
Monks are pretty much the best at running interface against secondary targets. With high mobility, strong defenses, and decent nova potential they are fairly well equipped to burst down priority targets. They also have some pretty potent control effects.
In PFS I have seen monks completely jack up enemy spell casters that no one else in the party can get to. I think they are solid 5th or 6th party member. In a smaller group there are other bases I would want to cover first.
I'd take a Monk in a group of 1.
My games/players don't often seem concerned with covering bases though so YMMV.
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But I disagree on similar damage. A barbarian or fighter and even a rogue with the right setup is going to leave the monk in the dust with damage.
only if the enemy stands still. If they take an action to step away, your combo is messed up. But not for a monk.
So if you want the monk to shine, you need an encounter that is not a 20' room. Have one against a bunch of horse archers and watch the fighter cry.
Also, do not discount the ways a monk has for flat footed. Easy flanking, trips, and the new stumbling stance. That can get you the same accuracy as a fighter, and possibly boost the fighter damage as well.
And yea, monks with shields. A good simple use of their extra action. If you do not like that, then a bo staff with parry also works. Maybe pick up a parry feat as well. (Swashbucker?)
Monkbuckler? I ship it.
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If you really want a stand and swing monk...
I suggest.
18 str/16dex with a shield.
Dragon stance
Stunning fist
Stand still
Wholeness of body
Dragon roar/winding flow
Diamond soul
Dustup ki
Enlightened presence
Diamond fist
Impossible technique.
Monkbuckler? I ship it.
stumbling fencer?
1 action to get penance, flat footed, and attack twice.
Monkbuckler? I ship it.stumbling fencer?
1 action to get penance, flat footed, and attack twice.
Once you got to Stumbling Feint you'd get to roll for free to get Panache every time you Flurry.
But I disagree on similar damage. A barbarian or fighter and even a rogue with the right setup is going to leave the monk in the dust with damage.only if the enemy stands still. If they take an action to step away, your combo is messed up. But not for a monk.
So if you want the monk to shine, you need an encounter that is not a 20' room. Have one against a bunch of horse archers and watch the fighter cry.
Also, do not discount the ways a monk has for flat footed. Easy flanking, trips, and the new stumbling stance. That can get you the same accuracy as a fighter, and possibly boost the fighter damage as well.
And yea, monks with shields. A good simple use of their extra action. If you do not like that, then a bo staff with parry also works. Maybe pick up a parry feat as well. (Swashbucker?)
if they take an action to move yes, but that also implies nobody is trying to impede the movement of the enemy either. so i dont think thats a strictly cut and dry perspective.
everything in this game flat footed, most characters can do it without sacraficing damage as well, wich the monk cannot.
i run capn america for one of my monks as well. though i took the bastion archetype (free archetype variant rules).
either way, despite the monks playing with action economy in terms of movement, fob for attacks, and fom/MM for maneuvers, they dont mesh well together, because as a monk you only ever get to choose either support or damage, not both, meanwhile a fighter/barbarian has ways to ensure grapples/trips/etc without losing damage, and a rogue just needs flatfooted wich it can achieve at no action cost or minimal action cost for a big spike in damage.
monk is like champion, damage isn't their thing, monk isnt like champion in that it has a plethora of support/reaction abilities to go off of.
Here is what I have seen playing in a monk and fighter group:
1. Fighter with reach weapon doesn't have a problem staying engaged and using reach to activate his double AoOs.
2. Monk with mobility can get into flanking position better.
3. Fighter accuracy hits more often and crits more often using a d10 weapon, which does more damage than a monk other than a Dragon Monk can even dream of equaling.
4. Monk flurry really doesn't help a whole lot unless you have really useful other actions. It just helps you get to -8 to 10 on MAP more quickly.
5. Maneuvers are affected by MAP and thus flurry makes them harder to do. Saves are not often much lower than AC and sometimes higher.
6. Mobility is not an advantage compared to a fighter with a reach weapon. A creature moving out of his range makes him happy. If they used step, he doesn't care as they lose an action to attack.
7. Ki Strike which costs a focus point for one flurry is pretty weak. It is much weaker than Precision Damage or Flurry Edge of a ranger or barbarian rage. At low level it can be used usually once a combat until you can get Meditative Wellspring at 12. Ki Strike competes for use against other powerful ki abilities, which makes it even less worthwhile to use. It is not a reliable way to boost damage.
But I disagree on similar damage. A barbarian or fighter and even a rogue with the right setup is going to leave the monk in the dust with damage.only if the enemy stands still. If they take an action to step away, your combo is messed up. But not for a monk.
So if you want the monk to shine, you need an encounter that is not a 20' room. Have one against a bunch of horse archers and watch the fighter cry.
Also, do not discount the ways a monk has for flat footed. Easy flanking, trips, and the new stumbling stance. That can get you the same accuracy as a fighter, and possibly boost the fighter damage as well.
And yea, monks with shields. A good simple use of their extra action. If you do not like that, then a bo staff with parry also works. Maybe pick up a parry feat as well. (Swashbucker?)
if they take an action to move yes, but that also implies nobody is trying to impede the movement of the enemy either. so i dont think thats a strictly cut and dry perspective.
everything in this game flat footed, most characters can do it without sacraficing damage as well, wich the monk cannot.
i run capn america for one of my monks as well. though i took the bastion archetype (free archetype variant rules).
either way, despite the monks playing with action economy in terms of movement, fob for attacks, and fom/MM for maneuvers, they dont mesh well together, because as a monk you only ever get to choose either support or damage, not both, meanwhile a fighter/barbarian has ways to ensure grapples/trips/etc without losing damage, and a rogue just needs flatfooted wich it can achieve at no action cost or minimal action cost for a big spike in damage.
monk is like champion, damage isn't their thing, monk isnt like champion in that it has a plethora of support/reaction abilities to go off of.
My personal belief is that the designers overvalue mobility which causes them to believe mobility makes up for weaker damage, which it does not. It did not in PF1 and doesn't in PF2. Once the Brawler came out in PF1, the player that liked playing monks switched to Brawler exclusively because it did better damage than the base monk. He felt no change because mobility doesn't win encounters in a group environment. Maybe in a white room situation where the monk is going against casters alone or using their mobility to avoid damage the designers see mobility as some kind of super power. In a group game with casters who can provide mobility via spells or archers who can hammer casters from range, mobility loses a lot of its value.
It's the same in PF2. Mobility's value within the group dynamic isn't much. It can help you do the following:
1. Get in melee combat first to land that first blow, but also take the first hits if you're the only one up there surrounded by enemy creatures.
2. Keep you from getting hit moving in and out of battle which usually either leaves the monster focusing on the other martial alone or sets you for attacks of opportunity. Neither of those are good outcomes.
Mobility isn't that useful going against creatures that will tear you up if you are in battle alone waiting for the other martial to catch up and out of range of the casters with their 30 foot heals and magic.
Deriven, we essentially get this already with martial artist archetype. You get stances at a -2 and some unique to it feats one of Wich is basically a free Mulligan on a miss.
Slap it onto a barbarian or a fighter or a rogue. They will excel beyond the monk.
Deriven, we essentially get this already with martial artist archetype. You get stances at a -2 and some unique to it feats one of Wich is basically a free Mulligan on a miss.
Slap it onto a barbarian or a fighter or a rogue. They will excel beyond the monk.
I was looking at the martial artist thinking they would make a better hand to hand fighter than a monk.
4. Monk flurry really doesn't help a whole lot unless you have really useful other actions. It just helps you get to -8 to 10 on MAP more quickly.5. Maneuvers are affected by MAP and thus flurry makes them harder to do. Saves are not often much lower than AC and sometimes higher.
6. Mobility is not an advantage compared to a fighter with a reach weapon. A creature moving out of his range makes him happy. If they used step, he doesn't care as they lose an action to attack.
7. Ki Strike which costs a focus point for one flurry is pretty weak. It is much weaker than Precision Damage or Flurry Edge of a ranger or barbarian rage. At low level it can be used usually once a combat until you can get Meditative Wellspring at 12. Ki Strike competes for use against other powerful ki abilities, which makes it even less worthwhile to use. It is not a reliable way to boost damage.
4: yes, so you need to find a use. Demoralize, raise shield, feint, hide, recall knowledge, draw a potion, etc...
Heck just step back and force the enemy to use an action to come to you.5: check out the assurance feat.
6: mobility can be combo'd with a reach weapon. Take a bo staff, run up, attack twice, run back. (Possibly + stand still + tangled forest + tangled rake to help keep the gap).
7: use ki strike at low levels. Use the focus point for something else at high levels. Casting wholeness of body twice in a fight is a lot of extra HP. Or just shadows web 3 times at high levels.
Also, it is best to work with your team. If you have a reach fighter, try knocking enemies prone 10' from him.
Or whirling trow to group people up for a fireball.
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I was looking at the martial artist thinking they would make a better hand to hand fighter than a monk.Deriven, we essentially get this already with martial artist archetype. You get stances at a -2 and some unique to it feats one of Wich is basically a free Mulligan on a miss.
Slap it onto a barbarian or a fighter or a rogue. They will excel beyond the monk.
That is probably more what you are looking for. Not someone who dances around the battle field, but a bare handed fighter.
No reason you can't be a fighter and grab dragon stance. Stumbling works with armor.
Alternatively, animal barbarian can get you d10 unarmed. Deer will get you reach as well.
Or even a fighter/animal barbarian, if you want to keep the accuracy.
I decided to make a flurry ranger with monk dedication with wolf stance and a wolf pet who trips people. I think this will be a far more effective character with less mobility.
I decided to make a flurry ranger with monk dedication with wolf stance and a wolf pet who trips people. I think this will be a far more effective character with less mobility.
I will say that mobilitys value is dependant upon the DM and the setting probably. I've been in campaign's that take place in wide forests and fields. Or even large cave structures mobility is great here, but in a dungeon with 30ft long rooms not as much no.
That said I like monks a lot despite their shortcomings.
But even a animal barbarian martial artist is where I'm at. Take raging athlete, Athletics with athletic feats, you will be mobile enough and do more damage. Just take sudden leap. It's pretty much a feat tax.
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I decided to make a flurry ranger with monk dedication with wolf stance and a wolf pet who trips people. I think this will be a far more effective character with less mobility.
That'll literally be a lot less effective than a monk.
I decided to make a flurry ranger with monk dedication with wolf stance and a wolf pet who trips people. I think this will be a far more effective character with less mobility.well, this is the opposite direction from action economy wise, since Twin takedown doesn't work with unarmed, and since you need level 10 to gain flurry from monk for 2 attacks in 1 action, and since you need an action to Hunt and another action to command the pet until later on.
adding the necessity to move into position, you will usually onl have a single attack per round, negating the Flurry Edge benefit
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i think a beastmaster monk would work better for that concept. it allows you to move, flurry, and command in a single round.
Unarmed strikes are listed under melee weapons. No idea why it would't work with Twin Takedown. Each fist would count as a melee weapon wielded in each hand. Is there some ruling that contradicts this? Please let me see it.
I decided to make a flurry ranger with monk dedication with wolf stance and a wolf pet who trips people. I think this will be a far more effective character with less mobility.That'll literally be a lot less effective than a monk.
But will it be better at being an effective damage dealer?
You are the math guy. Run the math on the build and you let me know if it does weaker damage to the monk taking into account the following:
1. I am currently allowed to use Twin Takedown with unarmed strikes until I see a ruling saying they don't count as melee weapons.
2. A wolf will get 1 action on its own even after I pick up Impossible Flurry, still allowing one extra wolf attack for a possible 3d8 damage.
3. My Flurry against Hunted Targets has a far better chance to hit. With Wolf Jaw strikes and Gang up with my animal companion as the animal companion will be considered flanking even if right next to me.
4. I picked up Rogue Dedication with Multitalented as he is a half-elf. I plan to get Sneak Attacker for the extra d6 damage when flanked which will be easy with my wolf.
6. My wolf can trip if his first jaw strike hits the target and then spend an action to knock them prone. When they stand I can use disrupt prey.
7. I also picked up Gravity Weapon which lasts an entire minute for damage for 1 focus point versus 1 Ki point for a boost in damage for one flurry up to 3d6 at 17th level versus what will likely be a +6 to +8 status bonus to damage on your best chance to hit attack for a minute.
At lvl 20 my attack sequence will look like this once in position and set up and maxed out magic:
Impossible Flurry with Accurate Flurry with Wolf Jaws with +3 major striking weapon without weapon property runes:
+35/35/34/34/34/34 melee attack with target flat-footed with wolf in place.
Damage: 4d8+13 with 1d6+2 precision with Sneak Attack and Backstabber
+8 status bonus to damage on first attack each round from Gravity weapon
Wolf Single Action Attack: +32 melee attack 3d8+7 damage
So even though this will not make for a better monk, I think it will make for a better unarmed attacking character who does superior damage with a better chance to hit.
Though I won't have that monk mobility, he will be far more effective than a monk in Unarmed Combat with slightly longer set up which I've found worth expending actions on in the toughest combats.
If I see a ruling that I can't use the Unarmed Strikes to cover Twin Takedown, then I'll probably move to the 1d6 Goblin Dog Slicers. Slightly reduced damage, but still more damage than a monk deals. I'll have to figure out what to do with those two feats I save.
I wonder if I could input all the information on this build in your damage calculator?
Here is the build. Idea behind it is unarmed attacking ranger monk who is his own wolf pack.
Ranger (Hunter’s Edge Flurry)
Half-elf
Ancestry:
1st. Elf Atavism (Ancient Elf): Monk Dedication
5th: Natural Ambition (Gravity Weapon)
9th: Multitalented (Rogue Dedication)
13th:
17th:
1st: Animal Companion (Wolf)
2nd: Twin-Takedown
4th: Basic Kata (Wolf Stance)
6th: Mature Animal Companion
8th: Disrupt Prey
10th: Incredible Companion
12th: Side by Side
14th: Sneak Attacker Rogue Ability
16th: Specialized Animal Companion (Ambusher)
18th: Impossible Flurry
20th: Accurate Flurry
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I am currently allowed to use Twin Takedown with unarmed strikes until I see a ruling saying they don't count as melee weapons.
However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.
This is, unfortunately, very clear cut.
I am currently allowed to use Twin Takedown with unarmed strikes until I see a ruling saying they don't count as melee weapons.However, unarmed attacks aren’t weapons, and effects and abilities that work with weapons never work with unarmed attacks unless they specifically say so.This is, unfortunately, very clear cut.
That is unfortunate. I will have to switch to Dog Slicers. Slightly less damage, but overall still more effective damage than the monk can do because hit accuracy more important than weapon die damage.
One advantage of this is I get to wear armor again, which is nice given I found out the hard way that wearing clothing for armor is terrible against attacks that destroy armor. There appears to be no hardness increase from potency or resilient runes, so a crit from a corrosive weapons will destroy your even your +3 resilient clothing unless your DM uses the RAW rule that clothing isn't armor even when it is being used as armor.
Well, forget everything I listed. I guess I'm playing a ranger. It's a much better class than a monk as far as being an effective damage dealer.