Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Hi all,
In combing through the VAST number of feats that have been published for PFRPG (and boy howdy are there are *LOT* of them), one particular area we're interested in enhancing for Corefinder is the use of skills *as* skills. Skill uses will be enhanced for sure, along the lines of unchained Skill Unlocks and Mythic Skills, but the 3.x design philosophy of "everything has a rule" and the ongoing evolution of things you can do in the game has led to lots of things that, in retrospect, probably should've just been part of skills from the start but had to be kind of welded on along the way through "just make it a feat."
Let's fix that!
To that end, we'd love to hear about oddball feats that you feel like really should just be something *anybody* with a skill (or a threshold level of skill) should be able to do!
Thoughts?
1. What's the feat?
2. Where's it from?
3. What does it do?
4. What skill should it be?
Confabulist, from Ultimate Intrigue. It does not deserve to be a feat, this is the way Bluff should work regularly.
Call Truce, from Ultimate Intrigue. It does not deserve to be a feat, this is something that Diplomacy should just be able to do.
Lunge, from the CRB, could just be an Acrobatics check made before the attack.
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Intimidating Prowess
Core Rule Book
Use STR mod in addition to CHA for intimidation checks.
Intimidation: Strength and Charisma should be interchangeable for intimidation purposes. for example "I pick him up and brace him against a wall! (intimidate using strength), vs "you got a nice shop here... lots a flammable stuff just lying around." (intimidate using charisma, with a bonus if the party mage is a known pyro)
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Intimidation is more than just being scary. It's the ability to use how scary you are to get people to react how you want them to react. If you can already kill a guy with your weapon, then picking him up and holding him against the wall isn't going to make you seem any more dangerous than you already were. You might as well use dexterity to juggle a knife near his face.
Probably a large number of Rogue Talents.
Probably a large number of Rogue Talents.
The entire Rogue class is just one big, redundant Disable Device check.
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Harvest parts
From the Monster Hunter's Handbook.
It allows harvesting parts useful for item crafting from monsters, though no more than 25% of the cost of any item so crafted.
It should be a use of survival IMO, though its prereqs are craft and heal so you might make an argument for those.
Sycophant
Agents of Evil.
Makes an enemies next attack against you do nonlethal damage if you make the diplomacy check. 1 use/enemy/day.
This may be an advanced use of bluff or diplomacy, but it shouldn't require a feat.
Unseen poison
Dirty tactics toolbox.
Detect poison doesn't automatically find poisons you are carrying.
This should be a use of sleight of hand to conceal items you are carrying IMO.
Scribe Scroll should be a part of Spellcraft, with ranks in Linguistics as a prereq. Brew Potion should be rolled into Alchemy.
I agree, and have thought that Scribe Scroll was just a redundancy for the Craft Calligraphy, or Linguistics, or Spellcraft... take your pick, the feat is worse than useless, it's a burden.
Same thing with Brew Potion and Craft Alchemy. There's absolutely no need for both.
Xenoglossy
From: Occult Adventures
It's basically just using a Linguistics check to speak in pidgin.
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Scribe Scroll should be a part of Spellcraft, with ranks in Linguistics as a prereq. Brew Potion should be rolled into Alchemy.I agree, and have thought that Scribe Scroll was just a redundancy for the Craft Calligraphy, or Linguistics, or Spellcraft... take your pick, the feat is worse than useless, it's a burden.
Same thing with Brew Potion and Craft Alchemy. There's absolutely no need for both.
I'm using a lot of houserules for my current (and several past) campaign - even before Unchained was published, I was using consolidated skills. For instance, I rolled Bluff and Intimidate and parts of Diplomacy into one skill, Influence, but I'll probably divide them into two - Deception and Intimidate, with parts of Diplomacy remaining in Deception and parts in my Society skill.
Brew Potion is rolled into Alchemy, and several other feats are rolled into other skills. For instance, Harvest Parts is a function of Skill Focus (Survival).
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Helpless prisoner
Gnomes of Golarion.
Bluff your captor to get a bonus to escape artist to escape the bonds you're in.
Just bluff. A feat? Really? Though it's obscure enough that it might not need to be codified at all.
Craft shoddy item
Villain Codex
Make a worse item using craft, paying 1/5 instead of 1/3 the market price in materials.
Craft.
Disconcerting knowledge
Horror Adventures
Intimidate using knowledge skills.
Knowledge. Keep the bardic knowledge or knowledge domain prereq maybe.
Disconcerting Knowledge should just be part of the Intimidate skill... where you get an untyped +1 bonus for every 5 ranks in the applicable Knowledge skill to identify the target of your Intimidate check. Because it's quite disconcerting to be bullied with very specific and personal weaknesses.
"I see you're vulnerable to XXX" is definitely more effective than "I'm going to kick your butt".
Why it's a feat? Because it takes a feat to wipe one's own @$$ in this game... unless you're a 9th level caster, they get a spell for that.
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Clinging climber
Ultimate Wilderness or Ranged Tactics Toolbox
Use both hands to fight while climbing. It's a move action so you need to stay put while doing so.
Climb.
Conceal scent
Osirion, Land of the Pharoahs (D&D 3.5)
Avoid being tracked by scent and halve the range which scent can detect you at directly.
Stealth, probably.
Cutting humiliation
Ultimate Intrigue
When you use intimidate against someone in a social (non-combat) situation they take a -2 to charisma skill checks for an hour or so.
Intimidate.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Conceal Spell
Ultimate Intrigue
Lets you make Bluff or Disguise checks to conceal your verbal components, or Sleight of Hand checks to conceal your Somatic components.
Should be rolled into those skills (as well as Perform (sing) if you're using bardic magic).
And while not a feat, both the universal monster ability sound mimicry and infiltrator archetype from Advanced Class Guide should be a standard part of Disguise skill (or Bluff if Disguise gets rolled into that).
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Every single feat I have seen from Ultimate Intrigue is literally just what the associated skill should do normally.
It's like someone just made every single social skill into a feat that does exactly what you do with the skill before the feat, just now it takes a feat.
Like, let's turn all these super mundane uses of every day skills into feats, and let's give these new feats prerequisites, too! Just to make the use of social skills even LESS appealing than they were before.
It would have been easier, and WAY better, if they had just wrote rules to include these uses of the skills as normal options for the skill.
Every feat labeled as an Intrigue Feat in the Vigilante Social Talents should be accompanied by a negative level, because you are literally worse than you were before you took it... What a waste.
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Dampen presence
Dungeoneers Handbook (D&D 3.5 had their own version with a different name too)
Use stealth vs. creatures with blindsense or blindsight
Stealth. It's essential to be sneaky at high levels.
Blustering bluff
Ultimate Intrigue
Reduce the penalty for difficult to believe lies, though people see thru it within an hour
A rule for fast-talking someone into believing you temporarily via bluff is not a terrible thing. Feat-gating it is unnecessary though.
Desert dweller
Ultimate Wilderness (most recently)
Resistance to various desert hazards
Dunno that making being accustomed to an environment is a feat-worthy thing. Survival and a trait or other background thing, maybe.
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Darkstalker. That was the D&D 3.5 feat which did dampen presence (and some more).
Esoteric advantage
Pathfinder Society Primer
Gain more benefits from identifying monsters as a move action.
Knowledge, tho' an advanced rather than basic usage.
(Also, firming up what information you actually get via knowledges a little might be nice)
Expert boarder
Adventurer's Guide (most recently)
Some skill bonuses & 'You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from climbing or swinging on a rope or ship’s rigging'
Climb or Acrobatics for the latter part
Expert Cartographer
Ultimate Wilderness
Some bonuses with craft (maps) and gain extra discovery points
Craft (maps) for the latter part, iff you include that discovery point system.
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Eye for ingredients
Ultimate Intrigue
Save money buying spell components (which are also worth less on resale, not an infinite money loop).
Appraise
False casting
Inner Sea Magic
Fake that an item you're using is actually your own spellcasting
Sleight of Hand
False trail
Ultimate Wilderness
Create a false trail
Survival
Field repair
Ultimate Combat
Make basic repairs without needing to pay for materials.
Craft
Filthy weapons
Heroes of the Streets
Cover your weapons in crap to expose their targets to filth fever
Knowledge (dungeoneering) or (nature)
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Not sure whether it's the size of the task which has driven others off or if I've driven others off by doing too many too fast, but anyway:
Finesse shot
Weapon Master's Handbook
Open things, close things, move levers etc. with a shot from a ranged weapon.
I honestly think this should be a fancy use of disable device rather than a feat with lots of BAB prereq. YMMV. I'd say the same for 2/3 uses of this feats' prereq, marksman's utility/utility shot gunslinger deed.
Guild emissary
Heroes of the Streets
Ask others to gather info for you - you have to have leadership or underworld connections to do so.
This should be a function of having one of the above feats or otherwise having suitable people working for you. Probably using diplomacy.
Herbal components
Heroes of the Wild
Use scavenged herbs to sub for cheapish material components.
Profession (herbalist) or Survival
I don't know how many times I have seen a feat that says with this feat you can do this...and I am like "Wait?! You need this feat to actually do this?!!"
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So many good finds avr! I knew about some of these, but wow if there aren't tons more.
Hover and Wingover. Just a fly check away from not being a feat at all.
1-Animal Disguise
2-Ultimate Wilderness
3-Let's you disguise yourself as an animal
4-Disguise
Hover and Wingover. Just a fly check away from not being a feat at all.This is a true statement, but the feat is there so you do not have to make the check at all. It was designed specifically for creatures that will never get enough skill points in fly, but they need those tricks for their verisimilitude without having to worry about possible failure.
So just include the benefits of the feats in the maneuverability rating of their fly speed. Then just assign the monster whatever maneuverability you need it to have.
Same thing with the feats that add powerful wind under huge winged creatures. That should just be a function of size and having wings... wings move air, huge wings move huge amounts of air.
Swallow Whole should include all the Snatch feats as part of the basic ability. Of course you can't make a Reflex save against its breath weapon while Grappled in its mouth. The fact that a feat exist for this is plain stupid.
I think the PF treatment of fly as a skill is bad enough in play that it doesn't get used regularly. Make the maneuverability classes a direct limit on turning/hovering (no roll) and you have a simpler and better (IMO) system. For backwards compatibility the skill is still used for fancy maneuvers and resistance to a few spells & weather conditions. Hover and wingover as feats which extend what a clumsy flyer might be able to do don't actually offend me, though a feat which improves maneuverability class directly might work better with the above suggestion. Haven't thought about the wind feats.
Snatch etc. don't really work with grappling as it is now without a fair bit of mind caulk. OTOH conceptually they're as much for dragons, who may not have (or want) swallow whole. I'm not sure the snatch feats need to die, but they effectively have by not being used.
Improvisational healer
Adventurer's Armory 2
+2 heal skill and get bonuses with cure potions you administer.
Heal for the latter part of the feat.
Instrumental
Classic Treasures Revisited
Start a bardic performance by using a magical instrument, some other stuff.
Perform for the first part.
Intoxicating flattery
Ultimate Intrigue
Spend a minute flattering someone with bluff to give them a -2 penalty to perception/sense motive for an hour or so.
Bluff. VM may be right about the Ultimate Intrigue feats.
Knowledgable spellcaster
Monster Hunter's Handbook
Gain less pieces of info from a knowledge check to identify the monster in order to get a bonus to beat SR.
Knowledge
Live off the land
Ultimate Wilderness
Move at full speed while travelling and also gather food; some other stuff.
Seems like an advanced use of survival - basic is half speed.
Lovable scoundrel
Blood of the Beast
Avoid the downsides of failing bluff, intimidate or sleight of hand via a quick diplomacy check
Diplomacy
Masked renown
Inner Sea Intrigue
Get the renown vigilante social talent (or taking it a second time you get the great renown vigilante social talent).
If it was a free tag which a GM could apply it might be a system you could use to note some effects of being famous. As a feat it's not sensible to take.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I don't know how many times I have seen a feat that says with this feat you can do this...and I am like "Wait?! You need this feat to actually do this?!!"
Exactly. And those are exactly the kinds of feats that we want to:
a. Get rid of; and,
b. Make skills (and basic adventuring actions in and out of combat) BETTER.
Master swimmer
Aquatic Adventures
Gain a swim speed of 30, though without the +8 racial bonus; prereq 10 ranks and skill focus in swim. I sort of feel that with that level of investment you should have a swim speed already.
Swim
Monstrous disguise
Monster Hunter's Handbook
Disguise yourself as a monstrous humanoid, given a few hours to make such a disguise - like a minotaur mask rather than just makeup I guess. The followup feat, monstrous masquerade can stay IMO.
Disguise
Mountaineer
Ultimate Wilderness
Mainly bonuses vs. altitude fatigue/sickness.
Survival
Quick favor
Ultimate Intrigue
When making a second gather information check immediately after the first, reduce the time required.
Diplomacy
Read spell traces
Ultimate Intrigue
Gather more info when using identify (or greater detect magic or arcane sight, maybe some more; not ordinary detect magic).
Spellcraft
Drunken sing-along
Inner Sea Taverns
Improve the mood of a crowd in a tavern and make gather info checks faster.
Diplomacy
Rhetorical flourish
Ultimate Combat
When making a diplomacy check on a creature, you can make a bluff check to get a bonus to a second diplomacy check on the same creature.
Diplomacy/bluff
Rouse emotions
Cohorts and Companions
Change a crowd's attitude towards yourself or someone/thing else by 1 level.
Perform
Rugged northerner
Adventurer's Guide (most recently)
Resistance to a bunch of cold weather effects
Survival
Sabotage magic item
Ultimate Intrigue
Sabotage a magic item via UMD
Use Magic Device
Sabotage specialist
Ultimate Intrigue
Sabotage non-magic items
Disable Device
Sense assumptions
Ultimate Intrigue
Talk to someone and figure out whether a lie would get a penalty to bluff checks vs. this person.
Sense Motive
Sense loyalties
Spymaster's Handbook
Talk to someone and figure out who they're loyal to.
Sense Motive
Sense relationships
Ultimate Intrigue
Observe two people interacting and figure out the relationship between them
Sense Motive
Storm-lashed
Adventurer's Guide (most recently)
Reduce some of the effects of bad weather on you.
Survival
Swipe and stash
Ultimate Intrigue
Plant an item on someone
Sleight of hand
True deception
Ultimate Intrigue
Your disguises can fool divinations
Disguise
Willing accomplice
Ultimate Intrigue
Use you bluff to aid an allies' disguise
Bluff
That's me done. I can't swear I've caught everything, but there's a fair few above.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Aquatic Adventures
Gain a swim speed of 30, though without the +8 racial bonus; prereq 10 ranks and skill focus in swim. I sort of feel that with that level of investment you should have a swim speed already.
Swim
AVR, think most of yours are dead on, but gaining an actual swim speed is pretty powerful (assuming you're often in the water). I'd keep this as a feat, but tastes vary.
Aquatic AdventuresAVR, think most of yours are dead on, but gaining an actual swim speed is pretty powerful (assuming you're often in the water). I'd keep this as a feat, but tastes vary.
Gain a swim speed of 30, though without the +8 racial bonus; prereq 10 ranks and skill focus in swim. I sort of feel that with that level of investment you should have a swim speed already.
Swim
It's not like I have the final say here - I'm not part of the team making Corefinder, just a random outsider making suggestions.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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It's not like I have the final say here - I'm not part of the team making Corefinder, just a random outsider making suggestions.Aquatic AdventuresAVR, think most of yours are dead on, but gaining an actual swim speed is pretty powerful (assuming you're often in the water). I'd keep this as a feat, but tastes vary.
Gain a swim speed of 30, though without the +8 racial bonus; prereq 10 ranks and skill focus in swim. I sort of feel that with that level of investment you should have a swim speed already.
Swim
You've done an amazing job sweeping up a terrific pile of feat fodder that should make skill monkeys much happier!!! Many thanks avr!
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Yeah avr, you have made a good list of feats that shouldn't really be feats.
The only one I could see going ether way is the swim speed one. Though that feat should be 5 ranks in swim not 10. I have seen feats that grant a fly speed lover then 10-11 level.
Should we make a list of things that should be a feat?