Lost Omens: Rival Academies makes me wish we were doing a Sarkoris Reclaimers storyline.
That sounds awesome!
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Larger set piece battles did occur (The Siege of Antioch (1097 C.E.) had a Crusader force of 40,000 men!), but they were quite rare, and usually ruinous for both sides.
In a follow up to this, the Saracen force was 70,000 men. Despite losing the battle (they didn't yet have a good counter to the heavily armored European knights), they suffered fewer long term losses then the Crusaders due to a much better understanding of the local environment.
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After having misread a description of Gatewalkers as an escort quest AP, I now demand an escort AP. With the long-awaited attending LO book : Dancing Halls of Golarion.
Isn't an Escort Quest basically the plot of Jade Regent or are you talking about the courtesan type of escort?
Creative Director
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After having misread a description of Gatewalkers as an escort quest AP, I now demand an escort AP. With the long-awaited attending LO book : Dancing Halls of Golarion.Isn't an Escort Quest basically the plot of Jade Regent or are you talking about the courtesan type of escort?
That's exactly what folks are talking about (before some folks started running with the fact that "escort" is also sometimes used as a euphemism for prostitute).
For Jade Regent I tried to address those concerns up front by trying to set things up in a "If Ameiko dies, her mantle of Empress moves on to a PC," but that Adventure Path switched developers early on and I don't think that notion carried through. I also think it's something that a fair amount of GMs didn't play up, frankly, so the perception for a lot of players of Jade Regent seems to be "We're just side characters here to propel an NPC's story forward," and to lots of gamers, that's unappetizing.
Which I completely understand.
As a result, ever since Jade Regent, we've been very timid and deliberate and sparse on including significant "escort quest" plotlines in Adventures, and when they do, we always tried to frame them in a way that makes it obvious to the players that their PCs remain the important ones.
Gatewalkers had some rough patches (sorta like Jade Regent) with having to switch out developers and even an author at the last minute (I was asked to write book 3 a month before it was due, for example, after the previous author had to leave the project for personal reasons), and so I feel like there was a bit of confusion there early on as to how best to present the central portion of that Adventure Path's escort mission. It's certainly something I struggled with a lot in writing the third book.
When we got a chance to revisit Gatewalkers and compile it into a remastered hardcover, a brand new team got a chance to take reader feedback and try to make adjustments and changes to that element. Completely rewriting the central plot wasn't really an option, and shouldn't have been because I do feel that the story is strong... it just needed more attention and TLC to make sure the players know that they're the ones who remain the focus of the story even when they're helping out others in need. Hopefully folks like what we've done with it, and hopefully those who DO like Gatewalkers are happy with how we preserved the plot... not every story is for everyone, and it's self-destructive to try to completely change a story to appeal to those who don't like it when there's plenty of folks who already like it—that just sets you up for a case where the haters are going to still be predisposed to hate while the ones who liked it will feel betrayed.
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After having misread a description of Gatewalkers as an escort quest AP, I now demand an escort AP. With the long-awaited attending LO book : Dancing Halls of Golarion.Isn't an Escort Quest basically the plot of Jade Regent or are you talking about the courtesan type of escort?That's exactly what folks are talking about (before some folks started running with the fact that "escort" is also sometimes used as a euphemism for prostitute).
** spoiler omitted **...
I just want to put some positive feedback here for the way Paizo has handled "escort quests", including in Jade Regent and the middle chapter of Gatewalkers.
My group loved the bioware style relationship building in Jade Regent, and I had a player who previously hated roleplaying blossom into one of the most involved roleplayers in my party because it helped them to have an underlying mechanic that could help them track their progress. Eventually it wasn't necessary and got moved to the background.
More than that the players treated Ameiko as integral to the party as if they had another player at the table with their own opinions on how to handle things. I played up Ameiko's nervousness about her destiny, and the weight of responsibility and made clear that she was relying on the PCs to help her navigate that situation.
People will gripe loudly when something didn't work for their game, or they were unable to adapt something to the needs and enjoyment of their players and that's understandable. People pay money for adventures and then expect it to work out of the box with little additional adaptation or preparation. Whether that expectation is fair or not, it exists.
However, for me and my group, who treats every AP as a scenario skeleton to build our own experience around, and players who treat NPCs with the same weight of existence as their own PCs, we love NPCs who are relevant to the plot and have their own drives, goals, destinies and lives outside the player characters. It makes it feel like the world is alive outside of the few hours we get to sit around the table, eat snacks and roll dice.
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After having misread a description of Gatewalkers as an escort quest AP, I now demand an escort AP. With the long-awaited attending LO book : Dancing Halls of Golarion.Isn't an Escort Quest basically the plot of Jade Regent ...That's exactly what folks are talking about ...
** spoiler omitted **...
Jade Regent is the adventure path that taught me how to run an NPC party member properly. My chronicles of that campaign are at Amaya of Westcrown, and amusingly, the second paragraph mentions a handy hint from James Jacobs.
This module is where Amaya grew into her own as a character. She became the ultimate den mother, taking care of the party so that they could take care of all the dangers. Perfect role for an escorted NPC.
It also helped that my wife's character Ebony Blossom was a ninja of a clan that used to serve the Amatatsu family. Her goal was to restore the Amatatsu family, so Amaya Amatatsu was a prop in her own story. The other players followed my wife's lead and made personal stories that interweaved into the escort story.
Three of my current players are enthusiastic roleplayers and the other four players don't mind their interaction with NPCs. They love having a strong relationship with an NPC and are glad to temporarily recruit one into the party--so long as they still retain their usual narrative control over the story.
However, giving the players as much narrative control as I forced me to develop nimble skills at improvisation. Combining that with also playing an NPC party member as a story element rather than as a GMPC puts a heavy requirement on gamemastering skills. My players are quick to forgive my occasional flubs due to that burden.
However, for me and my group, who treats every AP as a scenario skeleton to build our own experience around, and players who treat NPCs with the same weight of existence as their own PCs, we love NPCs who are relevant to the plot and have their own drives, goals, destinies and lives outside the player characters. It makes it feel like the world is alive outside of the few hours we get to sit around the table, eat snacks and roll dice.
Yeah, that describes my players, too, except that snacks became less important when we switched to playing online via Roll20 due to the Covid-19 pandemic.
It’s very different since I ran Gatewalkers as a solo campaign for my wife, but Sakuachi quickly became her closest companion, and she was very invested in helping her on her journey. YMMV.
I loved Jade Regent and ran it twice for two different group of players. Didn't really hear a complaint from them that they felt like secondary characters.
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IMO, how an AP like Jade Regent (or portions of Gatewalkers) is received by a party depends on two things:
1) The way the GM presents the "plot-critical" NPC(s). I remember reading about a complaint in the Jade Regent forums about how a GM had Ameiko and the other NPCs act as if the PCs were merely "hired help" and lackeys. The NPCs need to be presented in a way that engages the PCs, especially the players, and helps reinforce the PCs' agency. Another pitfall to avoid is having the NPCs hog the spotlight from the PCs or act as a deus ex machina frequently; players often resent it when NPCs "steal their thunder." It's often best to have the NPCs act in a support role for the PCs, even when the NPCs are "plot-critical" for the AP.
2) The players' attitudes toward NPCs and "patrons." Some player groups are just not willing to accept direction from a patron and/or will treat NPCs as unimportant "quest dispensers." There is nothing necessarily "wrong" with this play-style, but it is not suited to an AP where NPCs have a more visible or central role.
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IMO, how an AP like Jade Regent (or portions of Gatewalkers) is received by a party depends on two things:
1) The way the GM presents the "plot-critical" NPC(s). I remember reading about a complaint in the Jade Regent forums about how a GM had Ameiko and the other NPCs act as if the PCs were merely "hired help" and lackeys. The NPCs need to be presented in a way that engages the PCs, especially the players, and helps reinforce the PCs' agency. Another pitfall to avoid is having the NPCs hog the spotlight from the PCs or act as a deus ex machina frequently; players often resent it when NPCs "steal their thunder." It's often best to have the NPCs act in a support role for the PCs, even when the NPCs are "plot-critical" for the AP.
This is exasperated in Jade Regent where the escorted NPC Ameiko Amatatsu is 5th level when the PCs start at 1st level. The module The Brinewall Legacy had a contrived excuse to sideline her during the quest at Brinewall Castle so that she would not dominate those encounters. I dodged those issues by swapping out Ameiko for her half-sister Amaya, who had the same level as the PCs.
A few weeks ago on Tuesday January 28, 2025, in the playtest for the Runesmith class (Virgil Tibbs, Playtest Runesmith, comment #16), I set up a deux ex machina to rescue the players from a Severe-Threat Encounter in case the dice rolled poorly. The six-member party and the NPC Runesmith, all 5th-level, were fighting five Giant Hermit Crabs, creature 5. Some minotaurs were on the way to help, but not expected to arrive for another 15 minutes. I had the minotaurs show up after two crabs were dead and the runesmith and one PC were down to single-digit hit points, simply to wrap up the combat more quickly.
I asked my wife, one of the players, if she minded the rescue by the minotaurs. She said that she liked it, because it demonstrated that the townsfolk could protect themselves if necessary. She pointed out that I had forewarned them that the minotaurs would show up, so only their early arrival was a surprise.
2) The players' attitudes toward NPCs and "patrons." Some player groups are just not willing to accept direction from a patron and/or will treat NPCs as unimportant "quest dispensers." There is nothing necessarily "wrong" with this play-style, but it is not suited to an AP where NPCs have a more visible or central role.
When I was employed as an applied mathematician, I usually viewed my supervisor as the person who brought me interesting math problems rather than as an authority figure. :-)
I am currently running the Strength of Thousands adventure path, in which the PCs are students at the Magaambya School of Magic. The Paizo writers cleverly gave the Magaambya a culture that regularly sent the students out on service projects, so that the PCs would have some missions (intended as problem-solving missions rather than as combat, but sometimes combat occurred). In the 1st module, Takulu Ot, a friendly teacher, was their point of contact for most service projects. In the 2nd module, Janatimo, the head of a branch, was supposed to be their point of contact, but my players had changed the script. They had wanted to emphasize their role as students. They asked me to create classes and full-semester student jobs. For their 1st semester, their student job was helping to tend the Leshy Gardens. For their 2nd semester, they were liaisons to some visiting students. For their 3rd (and current) semester, they were aiding the local police force. And they no longer needed Janatimo to serve as a patron guiding them to adventures, because their job gave them the adventures that Janatimo would have given them.
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After having misread a description of Gatewalkers as an escort quest AP, I now demand an escort AP. With the long-awaited attending LO book : Dancing Halls of Golarion.Isn't an Escort Quest basically the plot of Jade Regent or are you talking about the courtesan type of escort?That's exactly what folks are talking about (before some folks started running with the fact that "escort" is also sometimes used as a euphemism for prostitute).
** spoiler omitted **...
I just want to put some positive feedback here for the way Paizo has handled "escort quests", including in Jade Regent and the middle chapter of Gatewalkers.
My group loved the bioware style relationship building in Jade Regent, and I had a player who previously hated roleplaying blossom into one of the most involved roleplayers in my party because it helped them to have an underlying mechanic that could help them track their progress. Eventually it wasn't necessary and got moved to the background.
More than that the players treated Ameiko as integral to the party as if they had another player at the table with their own opinions on how to handle things. I played up Ameiko's nervousness about her destiny, and the weight of responsibility and made clear that she was relying on the PCs to help her navigate that situation.
People will gripe loudly when something didn't work for their game, or they were unable to adapt something to the needs and enjoyment of their players and that's understandable. People pay money for adventures and then expect it to work out of the box with little additional adaptation or preparation. Whether that expectation is fair or not, it exists.
However, for me and my group, who treats every AP as a scenario skeleton to build our own experience around, and players who treat NPCs with the same weight of existence as their own PCs, we love NPCs who are relevant to the plot and have their own drives, goals,...
This is almost exactly how my Jade Regent game is going. We used the Ultimate Relationships rules, which give more mechanical heft to the relationship-building aspect of the AP. Essentially, it's turned into a campaign with a Persona-like social system, where the players are building relationships with a ton of NPCs, and have mechanics for how those relationships are built. The mechanical aspect is important: I know a lot of people will say "you don't need mechanics for this stuff, that's what roleplay is for" but I think that works for some people and not others, and also roleplay mechanics can be fun.
Goes to show that even a "bad" AP can be right for your table if you approach it the right way. The "escort quest" aspect of Jade Regent is actually what led it to being a great campaign for my group, as it encouraged the players to roleplay with NPCs and really engage with the world.
Honestly, with the popularity of relationship simulation games like Persona, Fire Emblem: Three Houses, etc., I wonder if you could make an AP that is about building relationships as a primary goal. I know a lot of APs have that aspect in service to a larger story, but I think adding some mechanical heft to roleplay is really fun when it's done well.
I strongly disagree with the concept that you can't get RP in dungeon crawls, especially in AV.
AV has so many opportunities for RP. Not just in Otari, which is loaded with them, but in the dungeon itself!
On nearly every, and maybe every, level you have chances to open dialog with the residents. You have lots of opportunities to shape the way that the group approaches the story of AV.
Can the GM fail to present the story well? Sure. I've had that happen to me in the past, where I have failed to present the story of an adventure well.
Can the players fail to engage the story, or become overall aggressive and try to clear it like a commando team? Sure, and maybe they want that. Maybe they do not want a deep story and just want to kill monsters. There's nothing wrong with that.
But to make the claim that 'There are no chances to RP in AV' is just incorrect. There are so many hooks, and so many chances to make more, that every group could find its own RP niches and focus points without that much work.
So, I'm making an assumption that I know which post above this is in response to; I want to point out that the post did not say 'There are no chances to RP in AV.' In fact, the post even calls out that there are RP opportunities throughout. The point of the post is that a heavy dungeon crawl focus in an AP inhibits roleplaying opportunities the PCs may encounter. And the poster included hypothetical examples, and mentioned Abomination Vaults as a specific example.
And while that may not be your experience, it is a true phenomenon for other players and groups. I agree with the poster above, and I didn't want their point to get misrepresented.
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I was reading through the LO: Tian Xia book and noticed that, canonically, Ameiko has not used the seals to rebuild the other four Imperial Families of Minkai. I know that this is likely because the assumption is that the PCs of Jade Regent would take on those roles, and that this can't be in canon, but I also think that could be a cool adventure.
One major criticism of Jade Regent is that you really don't spend a lot of time in Minkai proper, and I believe a lot of people would like a Minkai-focused AP. I'd like to see an AP where the PCs help Empress Ameiko select worthy individuals to recreate the Imperial Families (and maybe select a spouse for Ameiko as well, as I believe she's canonically childless, isn't getting any younger, and that Amatatsu line has to continue or what was Jade Regent even all about anyway).
My own Jade Regent campaign was based on relationship-building, and I think that could be a cool motif for the campaign. Seek out prospective candidates for the mantle of Imperial family, convince them to take on the responsibility, resolve their issues, and/or choose between a host of viable candidates, both good and evil, who might be best suited for the role.
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I would also like to see an aftermath of Jade Regent. However, I think it should be separate from the Jade Regent story. Allow those to run through the background like Easter Eggs, but have it a separate crisis that the PCs can take care of. Especially to allow for lower level characters to be stars...
I was reading through the LO: Tian Xia book and noticed that, canonically, Ameiko has not used the seals to rebuild the other four Imperial Families of Minkai. I know that this is likely because the assumption is that the PCs of Jade Regent would take on those roles, and that this can't be in canon, but I also think that could be a cool adventure.
Isn't the canon reason being the the PCs were already made backup scions?
I was reading through the LO: Tian Xia book and noticed that, canonically, Ameiko has not used the seals to rebuild the other four Imperial Families of Minkai. I know that this is likely because the assumption is that the PCs of Jade Regent would take on those roles, and that this can't be in canon, but I also think that could be a cool adventure.Isn't the canon reason being the the PCs were already made backup scions?
I think there is a different concern. I think it is about having Minkaian characters.
I think there is a different concern. I think it is about having Minkaian characters.I was reading through the LO: Tian Xia book and noticed that, canonically, Ameiko has not used the seals to rebuild the other four Imperial Families of Minkai. I know that this is likely because the assumption is that the PCs of Jade Regent would take on those roles, and that this can't be in canon, but I also think that could be a cool adventure.Isn't the canon reason being the the PCs were already made backup scions?
Someone was asking why the PC don't become scions of the other families, if I remember correctly, characters can't be scions of more than one family, and the PCs were already made scions of one.
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Has there been any adventure, path or Pathfinder society scenario that has dealt with Icestair?
I would very much like to see an Icestair gazetteer someday. It seems a really cool place where east meets west, With shops and districts existing at different elevations along the pass.
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Two themes I'd like to see used in upcoming APs:
The One About the Vows. The party makes promises, receives promises, and sometimes may have to choose which promise to break. They could be couriers, freelance spys or mercenaries, or maybe feudal vassals, but the plot should revolve around projmises made and kept (or not).
The One About Popularity. Kind of like the fame system from the Jade Regent adventure in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, but even more so. The AP is all about becoming popular somehow. Maybe they are merchant princes, or they run a guild. Key rivals in this one cannot be defeated through direct combat.
Was just thinking about this, and an AP where the PCs are theives / pirates and the books are built around heists, abductions, banditry, shakedowns, etc.
Maybe just a level 1-10 AP as they rise in the criminal underworld of some major city.
Being "locked" into being bandits is a hard sell for an AP, since evil scenario aren't that popular, however one way to do it while accomodating the groups that don't want to be evil would be a sort of treasure hunt. Where the PC learn of the existence/location of something very valuable, and retrieving the shinies is the main motivation of the adventure (which could mean that the adventure is a heist if it's in a urban setting, or an expedition for a wilder one). Where the "villain" of the AP is either whatever is keeping the treasure, or another rival group that set up to do the exact same thing as the party (or both).
This kind of setup accomodate a group of greedy pirate or bandit PC, while not completely closing the door on good characters that might want to use the money for something more noble than simply to get richer.
I think serpent skull tried to do this, but the 6 module format forced the story to become bigger than that by the end, while also having the issue of early mwangi... not being the best, and the classic issue of mismatched expectation with the player guide not advertising the fact that the core of the adventure was going to be a treasure hunt all that well.
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A level 7-16 adventure where the PCs held some prestigious rank (they were a lieutenant in the army, a merchant lord, the right-hand man in the most important church, or a famous actress) and the antagonists of the AP destroyed their reputations (false accusations of corruption, scandal, etc.). Now, as pariahs of society, they band together to regain their influence (or surpass it).
You could make each campaign trait in the player's guide affiliated with an antagonist (if you choose the military trait, the military antagonist is your nemesis). During the campaign, the party sabotages and fights against the antagonist's subordinates until the final chapter, where the final battle is the PC group versus the antagonist group (who would be working together on some plot to take control of the country or something like that). The idea reminds me of Gaedren Lamm at the beginning of Curse, and the players would have that "It's personal" motivation.
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My table want to be sailors. I know there's a nautical component to MythSpeaker, but I think an 'exploration' AP where the PCs are sailors / traders, might satisfy their itch.
They keep bringing up wanting to run Skull and Shackles, and I seriously considered it, but I'm not going to run 1E again, and don't have the bandwidth or interest to run a 2E conversion.
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My table want to be sailors. I know there's a nautical component to MythSpeaker, but I think an 'exploration' AP where the PCs are sailors / traders, might satisfy their itch.
They keep bringing up wanting to run Skull and Shackles, and I seriously considered it, but I'm not going to run 1E again, and don't have the bandwidth or interest to run a 2E conversion.
Are any of your players game to try GMing?
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Are any of your players game to try GMing?My table want to be sailors. I know there's a nautical component to MythSpeaker, but I think an 'exploration' AP where the PCs are sailors / traders, might satisfy their itch.
They keep bringing up wanting to run Skull and Shackles, and I seriously considered it, but I'm not going to run 1E again, and don't have the bandwidth or interest to run a 2E conversion.
oh, I'm happy GMing. I'm running STOLEN FATE, and we're in the final chapter of Book 1, so we'll be doing that for another 2 years or so. We are having a good time, so it's not a pressing concern right now, but in 2028... might be nice to have another nautical AP to choose from.
And the shorter APs are just a delight. I ran Tyrant's Grasp, but that took almost 4 years [4 hour sessions every 2 weeks].
Ever since I've read the impossible land book, the idea of an adventure with the party being the crew of a flying ship really grew on me. Seeing this exact setup being the framing device of the Howl of the Wild book only reinforced this interest.
It's such a simple but so evocative premice, I'd love to see an AP with this setup. I guess that it would force the adventure to either happen mostly in the air, which might get stale (and very deadly), or for the ship to regularly "touch land", but I do think there is a way to make it work, and if it does, it could be one of the most unique and beloved AP.
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My table want to be sailors. I know there's a nautical component to MythSpeaker, but I think an 'exploration' AP where the PCs are sailors / traders, might satisfy their itch.
You may be in luck, with the recent announcement of the upcoming Lost Omens High Seas book...
I could see an AP, or at least a stand-alone adventure, based on it.
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My table want to be sailors. I know there's a nautical component to MythSpeaker, but I think an 'exploration' AP where the PCs are sailors / traders, might satisfy their itch.You may be in luck, with the recent announcement of the upcoming Lost Omens High Seas book...
I could see an AP, or at least a stand-alone adventure, based on it.
Paizo's publishing MO is to release books that make stories they want to tell possible. By the sound of it, LO High Seas definitely makes nautical (or aquatic) adventures and APs possible.
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A level 7-16 adventure where the PCs held some prestigious rank (they were a lieutenant in the army, a merchant lord, the right-hand man in the most important church, or a famous actress) and the antagonists of the AP destroyed their reputations (false accusations of corruption, scandal, etc.). Now, as pariahs of society, they band together to regain their influence (or surpass it).
You could make each campaign trait in the player's guide affiliated with an antagonist (if you choose the military trait, the military antagonist is your nemesis). During the campaign, the party sabotages and fights against the antagonist's subordinates until the final chapter, where the final battle is the PC group versus the antagonist group (who would be working together on some plot to take control of the country or something like that). The idea reminds me of Gaedren Lamm at the beginning of Curse, and the players would have that "It's personal" motivation.
It's 1-10 instead of the 7-16 you're hoping for, but from what I know of it, that's pretty much exactly the plot of Outlaws of Alkenstar
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My table want to be sailors. I know there's a nautical component to MythSpeaker, but I think an 'exploration' AP where the PCs are sailors / traders, might satisfy their itch.You may be in luck, with the recent announcement of the upcoming Lost Omens High Seas book...
I could see an AP, or at least a stand-alone adventure, based on it.
oh nice! hadn't seen that one yet...
I'm so far behind on these though... still haven't read the academy book! or the taldor one!
Being "locked" into being bandits is a hard sell for an AP, since evil scenario aren't that popular, however one way to do it while accomodating the groups that don't want to be evil would be a sort of treasure hunt. Where the PC learn of the existence/location of something very valuable, and retrieving the shinies is the main motivation of the adventure (which could mean that the adventure is a heist if it's in a urban setting, or an expedition for a wilder one). Where the "villain" of the AP is either whatever is keeping the treasure, or another rival group that set up to do the exact same thing as the party (or both).
This kind of setup accomodate a group of greedy pirate or bandit PC, while not completely closing the door on good characters that might want to use the money for something more noble than simply to get richer.
I think serpent skull tried to do this, but the 6 module format forced the story to become bigger than that by the end, while also having the issue of early mwangi... not being the best, and the classic issue of mismatched expectation with the player guide not advertising the fact that the core of the adventure was going to be a treasure hunt all that well.
There is interest from players in Evil scenarios/APs, the main lack of interest is from GMs and writers.
True for Serpent's Skull, Player Guide did warn it wouldn't be a nautical adventure, but had some issue with the rest.
I think a good place to have a "gray" adventure—in the sense that you can help different warring factions, some better than others, but you can choose who you side—is Brevoy. Basically, it would be a mercenary adventure, perhaps a character has their own interests in the conflict, but at the end of the day, the group chooses who to help from several valid options. Half the adventure would involve getting to know the noble houses, what each one does, helping them with their problems, and gaining an understanding of the situation. Then, in the second half, when a civil war breaks out (for example) the group can decide who to support. The stats of the soldiers and monsters would be the same for both sides so the devs don't have to write like seven different statblocks, and what you would do with the maps is that if you go againts one faction, lets call them House Tululu, you have to besiege their castle from the outside. But if you had allied with the Tululu guys, the enemies would be the ones on the attack, and instead, you would have to play defense and protect against an invasion, that way you can reuse maps but with different purpuse and approach. A campaign like this can also be done in the River Kingdoms, in Iobaria or elsewhere, different factions that you get to know, you choose the one you like and they end up fighting probably to the death later so you choose who the winning horse is gonna be.
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There is interest from players in Evil scenarios/APs, the main lack of interest is from GMs and writers.
Paizo has released deliberately "evil scenarios/APs," as well as ones that can accommodate a party of evil PCs, in the past: Kingmaker AP (can accommodate), Serpent's Skull AP (can accommodate), Reign of Winter AP (can accommodate), Hell's Vengeance AP (deliberately evil), Strange Aeons AP (can accommodate), Emerald Spire (can accommodate), Fists of the Ruby Phoenix AP (can accommodate), Outlaws of Alkenstar AP (can accommodate), Blood Lords AP (deliberately evil), Gatewalkers AP (can accommodate), and Myth-Speaker AP (can accommodate).
The ones that require a party of evil PCs are less popular (sell fewer copies and make less money) than those that can accommodate evil PCs or have the PCs as heroic/good people battling evil foes. Yes, "there is interest" for "evil scenarios/APs;" but less interest than for good or neutral ones.
There is interest from players in Evil scenarios/APs, the main lack of interest is from GMs and writers.Paizo has released deliberately "evil scenarios/APs," as well as ones that can accommodate a party of evil PCs, in the past: Kingmaker AP (can accommodate), Serpent's Skull AP (can accommodate), Reign of Winter AP (can accommodate), Hell's Vengeance AP (deliberately evil), Strange Aeons AP (can accommodate), Emerald Spire (can accommodate), Fists of the Ruby Phoenix AP (can accommodate), Outlaws of Alkenstar AP (can accommodate), Blood Lords AP (deliberately evil), Gatewalkers AP (can accommodate), and Myth-Speaker AP (can accommodate).
The ones that require a party of evil PCs are less popular (sell fewer copies and make less money) than those that can accommodate evil PCs or have the PCs as heroic/good people battling evil foes. Yes, "there is interest" for "evil scenarios/APs;" but less interest than for good or neutral ones.
I did mention less interest from GMs (as opposed to players) and writers...
Blood Lords was more an Undead AP than an outright Evil one, Hell's Vengeance... might have simply suffered from the Chelish Curse.
I've read (altho not run) Hell's Vengeance, and I think one of the main issue is that the player start as mook that have to obey and grovel before their boss and remain just servant of people more powerfull than them for most of the early modules. Having the PC be just mook for someone else that have to obey is always a hard sell, especially when that someone isn't meant to be likable. It does perfectly fit the "lawfull evil" setup, but I don't think it's a kind of evil (or even of lawfull evil) that's particularly appealing to players.
One of the appeal of an evil party is that player can let out their inner gremlin and do stuff without regard for moral, which let them "play around" much more, but this kind of setup, while it does lift the "moral" constraint, impose another set of rule that the player are expected to adhere to even more strictly, so it doesn't feel great.
It is notable that Blood Lords, the most "lawfull evil" coded AP since Hell's Vengeance, significantly alleviated this issue by making the "early boss" far more likable and less overbearing, and allowing the party to become "free agents" much, much sooner. Along with not forcing obvious evil action to the player and giving option that accomodate a "secret good" party that try to change things from the inside. The AP apparently have some issues of it's own (mostly due to the fact that undead opponent are mostly balanced around fighting living player, making some encounters wonky), but I don't think I've ever seen someone complain that it was restrictive in the same way HV was.
Honestly, I feel that Blood Lord really show the lesson learnt from Hell's Vengeance in how (not) to write an evil AP. Likewise for Prey for Death, lawfull evil adventure, but you spend it away from your boss making your own decision instead of being forced to be an obedient mook.
The other thing Pazio seems to have learned from Hell's Vengeance is to not have "good" opponent, even as an evil AP, because killing good people feel bad (or at least it felt bad in HV), but I'm less sure I would agree here. I feel like the issue of HV wasn't so much the fact that the ennemies were "good aligned", but rather the fact that the party weren't given much reason to actually hate them appart from "they are our ennemies, go kill them". And on top of not being given a reason to hate them, a fair few of them were explicitely past victims rising against their oppressor, which really made fighting them (and possibly doing worse) into straight puppy kicking territory.
But I do think there can be stories in which genuinly good characters are satisfying antagonist for an evil AP, they just have to be written differently. Having a less likable personality and backstory (pompous ass that's genuinly try to do good is a perfect fit) would go a long way, and having them "wrong" the party in some way at the begginning of the adventure (for example by starting the adventure with them throwing the party in jail, or with them causing fall of whatever evil stronghold the party was a part of, or with them taking away the party's ill-gotten treasure) is a sure way to ensure the party is motivated to get back at them, even if those antagonist are morally in the right.
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TBF with Hell's Vengeance, there was noise at the time about how an evil adventure "needed" to fight against good opponents. "Evil vs. evil is unsatisfying" and similar comments; and there were gripes about the lack of good opponents for most of Blood Lords (and even some shade thrown that the PCs could ally with the good groups in Field of Maidens).
As far as starting as evil minions in evil societies (Cheliax and Geb), that's pretty much the same set up as Second Darkness (employees at a gambling establishment), Skull & Shackles (press-ganged pirate crew), Shattered Star (Pathfinder agents), War for the Crown (agents for Martella), Agents of Edgewatch (members of law enforcement), Wardens of Wildwood, etc. This is common for low level characters; you have to work your way up the ranks in an established organization.
I think the biggest disconnect for some groups who want to play in an evil campaign is that the PCs for Hell's Vengeance and Blood Lords are enforcing the status quo, instead of rebelling against it.
It is a rather common setup, but it's notable that these adventure aren't exactly the most popular ones, (or, in the case of skull & shackles, that the first module in which the players are press ganged is often considered one of the worse of the AP).
I do think party as minion/employee that have to answer to a higher authority is perfectly workable, but not really in the way Hell's Vengeance (or skull&shackles) did it, having a patron giving you missions and having some expectation in how it should be handled is fine, having them breathing down your neck and overbearing isn't. And while it was fitting for minion of an evil aristocrat, or press ganged crewmember of an evil pirate, it's hardly "fun" to play. Compare to Second Darkness (in which the first few modules are considered the best ones), the boss despite being basically a crime lord is much more lenient and let the player act as they see fit as long as they don't eat his profit or hurt his reputation.
I think the party should either start as semi independant agent that do get mission from someone else but are given lots of leeway in how they approach it (and, perhaps more importantly, in how they carry themselves), or, if being so independant at low level in such organisation would be weird, they should simply not start as minion, but as completely independant people that are only integrated in the organisation once they accumulated enough level (and reputation) for them to "make sense" as semi-independant. Because having an overbearing patron is felt as a massive railroad in my experience, forcing the group not only to do certain things, but also to act and roleplay in a certain way or else.
And yeah, I know about the noise about needing good opponent for an evil adventure to work, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree, altho not as strongly. My main reason being that "good creature" are usually massively underused in good or normal aligned campaign because it's much more difficult to make it make sense that the party would be fighting them, so an evil campaign is the perfect excuse to finally use them at their full potential. The main issue being that altho they must still feel "morally good", they also need to not "feel bad to kill", because otherwise players would be unmotivated to continue the campaign, and it's a hard thing to balance.
I'm fine with blood lord being a "neutral trending evil" AP more than an outright evil one, because it open interesting roleplay opportunity for an actual good party in how they act toward some of their evil "allies", or in how they support the pharasmin and how it could cost them, but I would like to see an actual PF2 evil AP where you fight more celestials or things like that. I think there's a lot of way this can be done, especially if the AP step away from the (rather restrictive) "lawfull evil" framework into a more chaotic one, by hinging the setup on having the party be self interested instead of trying to fit them into a restrictive organisation.
The thing about evil adventures is that if you make them reactive there's no problem, but if you make them proactive, people will almost certainly complain, except in obscure areas of Golarion. You're not going to have an AP adventure in Molthune where it conquers Nirmathas because people would say "what about Ironfang Invasion?" (even if Oprak is the enemy in that ap). The same goes for Ravounel, Korvosa, Sandpoint, or any place where AP PCs (not module PCs, since there seems to be more flexibility there) have been; people would complain. You already had people complaining about the Hellknights taking over Hellknight Hill for a week or two in a Society scenario; imagine that, but multiply it by 10. I'd like to see proactive evil adventures myself, but it doesn't seem like that's going to be the case, and eventually you'll have places where you can only have reactive adventures (look at Varisia). So yeah, PCs working for evil organizations can work; they just need to be shown a little respect, that is all. In Second Darkness, you have the Lantern Bearers, who are infamous in my opinion for being a "good" organization (in the sense that you have to help them no matter what, and the drow are obviously the bad guys), but then they're xenophobic jerks to non-elves. How many parties have told them "well, see you later" and had to either create elf characters or not continue the campaign? Interesting thought.
The issue with evil adventures in a setting with (at least to some extent) objective morality is that actually good foes are going to be sympathetic and altruistic, not overbearing hypocrites like the "awful good" stereotype. And the old Lantern Bearers (the Winter Council in particular) in Second Darkness are not actually good (neutral at best, with a leaning toward "the ends justify the means"*).
For a campaign that allows proactive evil PCs, good enemies will likely be a rarity or at most opponents that need to be defeated for specific objectives.
*- which can be a dangerous road to travel
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The main issue with evil adventures is that people can't really agree what they actually want. Do they want to be agents of evil forces? Do they want to be murder gremlins in a sandbox? Do they want a "regular campaign, but you fight good guys"? Do they want to roleplay Palpatin? Do they want to just kill good guys and skip all the fun parts of imprisoning good guys and giving them monologues in the prison taking fun out of being edgy? Do they want to take over evil nation for their own ends or end a good nation?
People generally speaking don't actually want to be bad guys, so its kinda hard to get unified voice for people who want to play the otherside for change of pace. People can't even agree whether evil campaign should be about bunch of greedy selfish jerks or malicious demon worshippers
I mean, all of those examples are different kind of evil campaign, just like how "crusader fighting demon", "agent of the magaambiya" and "adventurer trying to do the right thing" are all different kind of good campaign. "Evil campaign" isn't a single thing, it can be explored in a lot of different way. Just like some good campaign are mostly down to earth and other have the party frequently mingling with angels and fighting demon/devils/daemons on the regular.
For the moment, the "lawfull evil" side of things, where player work for an evil regime/organisation are are expected to want to climb up the ranks have received the most adventure/module out of all the way to play an evil campaign, with two AP dedicated to it as well as a rather in depth adventure. Which I understand, those adventure allow Paizo to explore some of the government/organisation of their setting from "the other side", it's naturally easier to write than an adventure in which the party are independantly selfish and self serving, but still, I think the next one ought to be more on the gremlin/independant side of things.
Make the party (eeeeeevil) pirate, bandit, make them create a thief guild, hinge the very setup of the campaign around wanting to take someone else's treasure, do a dark mirror of kingmaker in which the party are bad guys trying to take control of a town/region for themselves, there's a lot of things that could be done to make a fun evil campaign that don't retread the lawfull evil/minion of an evil organisation stuff.
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To be fair I also think it was the over the top types of evil the ap got into (One that comes to mind was the option to skin someone and wearing it as angel skin armour)
The problem there wasn't over-the-top evil (or, well, it was, but in a roundabout way)—it was cognitive dissonance. PCs have been flaying their enemies and wearing their skins as armor for decades, this having been supported by game rules, and it's always been an over-the-top evil thing to do if you think about it. It's something like the height of disrespect. But it's rarely been called out as such, so it feels weird for it to finally be.
The thing about evil adventures is that if you make them reactive there's no problem, but if you make them proactive, people will almost certainly complain, except in obscure areas of Golarion. You're not going to have an AP adventure in Molthune where it conquers Nirmathas because people would say "what about Ironfang Invasion?" (even if Oprak is the enemy in that ap). The same goes for Ravounel, Korvosa, Sandpoint, or any place where AP PCs (not module PCs, since there seems to be more flexibility there) have been; people would complain. You already had people complaining about the Hellknights taking over Hellknight Hill for a week or two in a Society scenario; imagine that, but multiply it by 10. I'd like to see proactive evil adventures myself, but it doesn't seem like that's going to be the case, and eventually you'll have places where you can only have reactive adventures (look at Varisia). So yeah, PCs working for evil organizations can work; they just need to be shown a little respect, that is all. In Second Darkness, you have the Lantern Bearers, who are infamous in my opinion for being a "good" organization (in the sense that you have to help them no matter what, and the drow are obviously the bad guys), but then they're xenophobic jerks to non-elves. How many parties have told them "well, see you later" and had to either create elf characters or not continue the campaign? Interesting thought.
Hell's Vengeance was reactive most of the time and many saw it as a problem, for the first two books most of the "Evil" the PCs do is related to working for an evil boss, unless they are carrying the self-defence in evil ways.
I've read (altho not run) Hell's Vengeance, and I think one of the main issue is that the player start as mook that have to obey and grovel before their boss and remain just servant of people more powerfull than them for most of the early modules. Having the PC be just mook for someone else that have to obey is always a hard sell, especially when that someone isn't meant to be likable. It does perfectly fit the "lawfull evil" setup, but I don't think it's a kind of evil (or even of lawfull evil) that's particularly appealing to players.
People weren't interested in playing Saturday Morning Cartoon Villains' dumb henchmen. And unlikable allies tend to be a staple in APs.
The issue with evil adventures in a setting with (at least to some extent) objective morality is that actually good foes are going to be sympathetic and altruistic, not overbearing hypocrites like the "awful good" stereotype. And the old Lantern Bearers (the Winter Council in particular) in Second Darkness are not actually good (neutral at best, with a leaning toward "the ends justify the means"*).
For a campaign that allows proactive evil PCs, good enemies will likely be a rarity or at most opponents that need to be defeated for specific objectives.
*- which can be a dangerous road to travel
It has always been rather hard to write Good aligned NPCs well.
Most of HV Good guys weren't that sympathetic.
A Theme I would like to see is one of transformation. Maybe the players need to turn into things so solve problems. Maybe they travel to weird demiplanes which alter their form. Maybe everyone is a lycanthrope of some sort.
I'd also kinda dig something where the players are "blessed" by Yamasoth and slowly transforming over the course of the campaign. Possibly even being contagious. maybe some modification of the old corruption system from horror adventures of 1e
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A Theme I would like to see is one of transformation. Maybe the players need to turn into things so solve problems. Maybe they travel to weird demiplanes which alter their form. Maybe everyone is a lycanthrope of some sort.
I'd also kinda dig something where the players are "blessed" by Yamasoth and slowly transforming over the course of the campaign. Possibly even being contagious. maybe some modification of the old corruption system from horror adventures of 1e
the corruption rules were awesome and should make a comeback.
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I like the idea of a werecreature AP. It’s an obvious box of tropes and i’m unsure why it hasn’t been done before now.
I like the idea of a werecreature AP. It’s an obvious box of tropes and i’m unsure why it hasn’t been done before now.
Probably for similar reasons we don't have a Nature vs Civilization/Exploitation one, plus its own reasons.