Ok, first question. Which dragon bloodline would seem most appropriate and/or at home in adventures near, on, or under the ocean? I know blacks are in the swamps, greens in the forests, blue in the deserts. But I don't remember any of the basic types being discussed much in relation to the oceans/seas.
So we have a group of players that are at least moderately new to PF. Even the games they have played, I get the impression that most of them never optimized all that much. I, on the other hand, can't stand to not optimize my characters as much as possible considering the basic concept. So I feel like I'm dominating the game time way too much.
I've been in similar situations. My solution is to take a fairly non-optimal basic concept. Then I can optimize the heck out of it and be about on par with the others. One of the ones I'm currently pondering is a caster focused DD. Most will tell you DD is a melee chassis plus it loses casting levels, so I figure it has to be pretty much in the non-optimal caster category.
- Probably just human since my unique wierdness will come from changing into a dragon.
- Thinking 1 level of bloodrager for when I really lose my temper, get ambushed at close ranger, something resistant to my spells, or i run out of spells. Then 4 levels of sorcerer. All 10 levels of DD. If the campaign goes long enough (probably not) I will finish out with sorcerer.
- Will take the feats (I think it was Prestigious Spell Caster) to get back lost casting levels.
- Not sure if I should do crossblooded. There are some abilities that mesh very nicely, but losing a spell known of each level and the -2 to will saves is hard.
- Considering either the Eldritch Heritage tree or VMC another class to get some more wierd abilities. Ha! I suppose I could Heritage a 3rd bloodline.
So this would give me a very nearly full arcane casting class. But not a whole lot of feats to make it overpowered. Some versatility since I can melee if needed (but not enough to overshadow the full melee builds). Charisma will be decent so I can at least help out in social situations.
Thoughts, Questions, Concerns?
Well, my first thought is that you should pick a spellcasting focus. Do you want to be a blaster, controller, summoner, buffer, etc? How that comes out will shape the kind of sorcerer (or even possibly ARCANIST) that you will want to build.
Also, there are quite a few ways to get spontaneous arcane casting with other classes (like the witch) or use your Intelligence as a casting stat. Are you really focused on being a sorcerer?
Be a Scaled Disciple Kobold Oracle...
Which dragon bloodline would seem most appropriate and/or at home in adventures near, on, or under the ocean? I know blacks are in the swamps, greens in the forests, blue in the deserts. But I don't remember any of the basic types being discussed much in relation to the oceans/seas.
The Legacy of Dragons Book expands the draconic bloodline to cover the dragon types from Bestiary 2 to 5. Brine dragon from Bestiary 2 seems like a fitting choice, for example.
Bronze dragons prefer temperate coastlines and are also well disposed toward PC races.
A caster DD could focus on blasting with electricity.
Instead of bloodrager, maybe a one level dip in bolt ace gunslinger with an underwater crossbow and possibly getting the GM to agree with reskinning the spellslinger wizard to work with a crossbow instead of a firearm (also a one level dip). This would probably mean starting with a 12 Int and 12 Wis, but that's not a bad idea anyway. Magical Knack (Sorcerer), bolt ace gunslinger 1 (probably Rapid Reload as one of your starting feats)/sorcerer 2 (take Arcane Armor Training as your 3rd level feat and retrain to Quicken Spell later on)/spellslinger wizard 1/sorcerer +2/dragon disciple 10. You're a bit less capable as a pure caster, but you can boost the effectiveness of what spells you can cast via Arcane Gun ("Arcane Crossbow"). You're also decent in ranged combat and can fall back on claw (and bite) in melee.
Sea and mist dragons exist in PF too.
I would suggest checking the stat blocks of the various dragon types. Regardless of their usual terrain, any type of dragon that has a swim speed and can breathe water could live under the sea if it wanted to.
Of the core dragons, black, green, and bronze dragons all qualify.
Well, my first thought is that you should pick a spellcasting focus. Do you want to be a blaster, controller, summoner, buffer, etc? How that comes out will shape the kind of sorcerer (or even possibly ARCANIST) that you will want to build.
Also, there are quite a few ways to get spontaneous arcane casting with other classes (like the witch) or use your Intelligence as a casting stat. Are you really focused on being a sorcerer?
Well if I'm going for Dragons Disciple, I feel like I should really get the full 'dragon' experience and so that means mostly sorcerer to get the full bloodline benefits. There are a few other ways to kinda manage it, but again I don't want this guy to be too powerful and overshadow the other PC's.
For the type of spells, I'm going for a bit of mix. Since I'm making a sort of gish PC he will need some self buffs. Especially defensive.
I want some offensive spells. But again since a sort of gish, won't have max casting stat and spell focus type feats, so I will try to get some spells that don't have a save or at least have some effect on a successful save. So scorching ray and acid arrow type of things.
And then I always want at least a few general party buffs like haste and communal whatever.
Be a Scaled Disciple Kobold Oracle...
I don't know if this GM will go for Kobold in this campaign. Will definitely keep in mind for the future however.
The Legacy of Dragons Book expands the draconic bloodline to cover the dragon types from Bestiary 2 to 5. Brine dragon from Bestiary 2 seems like a fitting choice, for example.
Had not looked into that before. So leaning toward brine or bronze for dragon type.
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Instead of bloodrager, maybe a one level dip in bolt ace gunslinger with an underwater crossbow and possibly getting the GM to agree with reskinning the spellslinger wizard to work with a crossbow instead of a firearm (also a one level dip). This would probably mean starting with a 12 Int and 12 Wis, but that's not a bad idea anyway. Magical Knack (Sorcerer), bolt ace gunslinger 1 (probably Rapid Reload as one of your starting feats)/sorcerer 2 (take Arcane Armor Training as your 3rd level feat and retrain to Quicken Spell later on)/spellslinger wizard 1/sorcerer +2/dragon disciple 10. You're a bit less capable as a pure caster, but you can boost the effectiveness of what spells you can cast via Arcane Gun ("Arcane Crossbow"). You're also decent in ranged combat and can fall back on claw (and bite) in melee.
It is a neat concept. I think it is a bit too close to another PC I am playing though. I have a gunslinger / alchemist shooting explosive bullets.
Well if I'm going for Dragons Disciple, I feel like I should really get the full 'dragon' experience and so that means mostly sorcerer to get the full bloodline benefits. There are a few other ways to kinda manage it, but again I don't want this guy to be too powerful and overshadow the other PC's.
I can understand that. Its just with your listed approach, you are going to need to specialize in certain types of spells because your known spells will be limited. Having to pick between a new buff spells, attack spell, control spell, etc at each level up is going to pull you in several different directions.
You are going to need to make use of the human favored class option to learn new spells, if you want to be able to do that well. I mentioned the Arcanist previously because you would get the spontaneous casting of the sorcerer and the ability to swap out your known spells as needed. And the Arcanist has an archetype to get a full strength bloodline that will stack the same with Dragon Disciple. It will also help limit that urge to double dip into more bloodline so you don't make yourself too powerful compared to everyone else.
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I can understand that. Its just with your listed approach, you are going to need to specialize in certain types of spells because your known spells will be limited. Having to pick between a new buff spells, attack spell, control spell, etc at each level up is going to pull you in several different directions.You are going to need to make use of the human favored class option to learn new spells, if you want to be able to do that well. I mentioned the Arcanist previously because you would get the spontaneous casting of the sorcerer and the ability to swap out your known spells as needed. And the Arcanist has an archetype to get a full strength bloodline that will stack the same with Dragon Disciple. It will also help limit that urge to double dip into more bloodline so you don't make yourself too powerful compared to everyone else.
Arcanist counts as a prepared caster. I think there is one archetype that gives spontaneous casting, but I didn't think it stacks with the one that gives you a full bloodline. I could be wrong on that though. I will check it later.
Spell Specialist is the arcanist that qualifies for dragon disciple. You should try to ask your GM for an exception though, because the blood arcanist has better flavor with the dragon disciple. Alternatively, as long as you’re talking to your GM, see if the bloodline exploit works to advance the bloodline granted by the dragon disciple for the spell specialist. There’s a lot of contentious stuff with arcanist dragon disciples.
Human with Racial Heritage Kobold, Scaled Disciple Oracle...?
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My concern here is that caster DD is already risky, considering you're giving up spells ans caster levels for melee abilities that are more of a liability due to a lack of armor and those sorcerer base stats early on. With a low BAB and a need to split stats, you'll rarely be able to keep up with monster AC.
Avoid dipping as much as possible. Your caster level already suffers. In fact, consider taking the Magical Knack trait to shore it up. Bloodrager is a good way to go jnto Dd (I'd argue the best way) but chosing that means you're basically 100% in on the fighty side of the prestige class.
If you're going for maximum flavor and a means of challenging yourself, consider limiting yourself to only learning spells that are known by the bestiary examples of your bloodline's patron dragon.
My concern here is that caster DD is already risky, considering you're giving up spells ans caster levels...
It sounds like you're unfamiliar with the prestigious spellcaster feat.
And don't forget the feats for eliminating the non-caster levels from a prestige class. If you are taking all 10 levels of Dragon Disciple, that would use up four feats.
With one level of Bloodrager, I would take 4 levels of Arcane Duelist Bard.
You will need the Mad Magic and Blooded Arcane Strike feats, but it's well worth it to be able to cast Bard spells whilst Bloodraging, and to simultaneously activate Arcane Strike every time you enter Bloodrage (for as long as you Rage). The Gloves of Arcane Striking become an almost must-have item.
I would just give up the spellcasting levels in Dragon Disciple, and take Expanded Arcana to boost the number of spells known in the levels you have.
Be a Bard, do Bard stuff, focus on utility magic and buffs with a bit of healing thrown into the mix.
Use a Longspear, take Flagbearer, get the Banner of Ancient Kings.
You won't overshadow anyone, and everyone will love you.
Take the Adopted trait and get Helpful from the Halfling race traits for a +4 Aid Another. With the Gloves of Arcane Striking, this becomes amazing.
Pick up Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard since you have a reach weapon and your ability to Aid Another is unparalleled.
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It sounds like you're unfamiliar with the prestigious spellcaster feat.
I am!
Alright. The feat is interesting, and I really appreciate that it exists. However, spending three general feats (in exchange for three specific feats) and dropping a forth one on what ammounts to half of Toughness is still rubs me the wrong way.
Granted, I no longer think that bloodrager is the only way to play this archetype. And if the draconic sorcerer I was cooking up wasn't a Core character, I certainly would have gone down this route.
It took me a while to get back to it, but I think this is approximately how it would be built at 15th level.
Not really sure of the spell selection. The are mostly the ones in the Bestiary for the bronze dragon. Plus a few others.
Spells Known are as a 14th level sorcerer, but he does cast them at 15th level.
I only put 2 magic items on him since I know I will want to get both of those just as absolutely soon as I can manage.
Male human (Vudrani) bloodrager 1/dragon disciple 10/sorcerer 4 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 15)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Hero Points 3
Init +6; Senses blindsense 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +20
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 17 (+2 Dex, +7 natural)
hp 159 (15 HD; 4d6+1d10+10d12+63)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +10
Resist draconic resistance, electricity 10
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Special Attacks bloodrage (13 rounds/day), breath weapon (11d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, DC 18, 2/day), breath weapon (18d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, DC 24, 3/day), claws, claws (2, 1d6 plus 1d6 electricity, treated as magic weapons, 8 rounds/day), dragon bite
Dragon Disciple Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +15)
. . 2/day—dragon form
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 15th; concentration +20)
. . 7th (3/day)—form of the dragon II, spell turning
. . 6th (5/day)—greater dispel magic, form of the dragon I, mislead (DC 21)
. . 5th (7/day)—dismissal (DC 20), interposing hand, lightning arc[UM] (DC 20), spell resistance
. . 4th (7/day)—ball lightning[APG] (DC 19), dimension door, fear (DC 19), ice storm, solid fog
. . 3rd (7/day)—dispel magic, fly, heroism, lightning bolt (DC 18), slow (DC 18)
. . 2nd (7/day)—blur, defensive shock[UM], gust of wind (DC 17), invisibility, resist energy, see invisibility
. . 1st (8/day)—alarm, liberating command[UC], mage armor, obscuring mist, shield, shock shield[UC], true strike
. . 0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, drench[UM] (DC 15), mage hand, mending, message, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic
. . Bloodline Draconic, Draconic
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 7, Cha 20
Base Atk +10; CMB +14; CMD 26
Feats - Custom Feat -, - Custom Feat -, - Custom Feat -, - Custom Feat -, Blind-fight, Eschew Materials, Extra Rage, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness
Traits blood of dragons, indomitable faith, magical knack
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+10 to jump), Appraise +6, Bluff +9, Climb +8, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +6, Fly +20, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (arcana) +20, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (nobility) +6, Knowledge (religion) +20, Linguistics +14, Lore (Dragons) +19, Perception +20, Ride +6, Spellcraft +6, Survival +2, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +19
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Hallit, Kelish, Osiriani, Polyglot, Shoanti, Skald, Tien, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ bloodline arcana (energy spells that match bloodline energy deal +1 damage per die), fast movement, hero points, wings, zealous
Other Gear furious amulet of mighty fists, robe of arcane heritage[APG], 15 pp
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Special Abilities
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Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Blindsense (60 feet) (Ex) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Electricity] spells.
Bloodrage (13 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Breath Weapon (11d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, 2/day, DC 18) (Su) As a standard action, deal energy damage in area (Ref half).
Breath Weapon (18d6 electricity, 60 ft. line, 3/day, DC 24) (Su) As a standard action, deal energy damage in area (Ref half).
Draconic Resistance (Ex) Gain Electricity resistance 2 and +10 natural armor.
Dragon Bite (Ex) Bite atacks deal 1d6 damage
Dragon Form (II, 2/day) (Sp) Use Form of the Dragon II as a spell-like ability 2/day
Electricity Claws & Electricity Bite (8 rounds/day) (Su) As a free action, gain 2 claw attacks (+1d6 Electricity) that bypass DR as magic weapons. Bite attack deals 1d6 damage.
Energy Resistance, Electricity (10) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Electricity attacks.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Flyby Attack You can take a standard action during your move action while flying.
Hero Points Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Improved Iron Will (1/day) Can re-roll a Will save, but must take the second result.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magic Claws (Ex) 2 Magic Claw attacks deal 1d8 damage.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Wings (Su) Can sprout wings and gain a 60' Fly speed with average maneuverability.
Zealous -5 to hit and +2 to damage on your first attack against a target of a different religion than you
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level feats
1 iron will & improved iron will
3 improved initiative
5 favored prestige class
7 prestigious spell caster
9 extra rage
11 prestigious spell caster
13 flyby attack
15 prestigious spell caster
I did consider VMC cleric with the Dragon domain just to fit with the theme, but it really doesn't gain much of anything and loses half his level feats.
