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Good question! We don't really know.
As far as I understand it several different interpretations exist in regards to this but it seems the most common one is that you do indeed have a "Formula: Scroll" that's needed to make Scrolls but you do not have one for, say,: "Formula: Scroll (1st Level)" and then every other spell level as well.
By RAW, it seems like literally EVERY spell, every LEVEL of Spell, and even varying Heightened versions of said spell needs its own unique Formula for it but this couldn't POSSIBLY be correct at all as it would represent a massive nerf to Magical Crafters at large.
I also agree with Thenobledrake for the RAW part. I just want to point out the feat Inventor which should solve the potential problem of availability and reduce the cost of formulas (formulas cost a fourth of the first scroll price, so it's not crazy high).
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+1 for thenobledrake.
It's the most likely interpretation, and one that doesn't seem to create any mechanical problems, while still feeling quite balanced about the effort needed to craft what you like.
The big qiestion is if you have the spell in your spell book does that count as the "formula" or do you need s scroll formula book to craft scrolls and get each formula seperatly from each spell in your spellbook for wizards.
The big qiestion is if you have the spell in your spell book does that count as the "formula" or do you need s scroll formula book to craft scrolls and get each formula seperatly from each spell in your spellbook for wizards.
Every other post in the thread literally dealt with this EXACT question. You need a Formula for a 1st level scroll. That formula is used to craft a scroll that has any 1st level spell on it. To craft any 2nd level spell, you need the 2nd level formula etc. etc.
So a wizard that literally carries a spellbook with spell formulas so he can memorize spells needs a second book so he can create scrolls of those same spells? So he has to effectivly buy each spell (or craft with inventor) twice paying for each with time and/or money twice. I can understand how RAW this might be true but as a GM I wouldn't punish a wizard player by making him do this. I would allow a Wizard to use his spellbook as his formula book for scrolls.
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I think that there's a misunderstanding.
We are not saying that you need a different formula for each spell, just that you need a different one for each spell level.
Then, you can scribe any spell you know of that level (or the hightened versions of other spells you know).
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I'd support the interpretation that it is likely to be the intention to require 1 formula per spell level rather than a scroll formula for every spell.
My reasoning is mostly reliant on how wands are presented on page 597 of the CRB. Since both scrolls and wands are variations of the "spell in a can" items, I'd expect many aspects of their rules to mirror each other (which they largely do).
However, unlike the scrolls section which only gives a pair of sample scrolls, the wands section includes a statblock for a generic magic wand with 9 types (one per spell level) that simply lists the crafting requirement as, "Supply a listed-level casting of the spell." Since the crafting section specifies different formulas for "multiple types of different levels," I'd assume that to refer to the types presented in bold in the Magic Wand statblock - which seems to imply that formulas there are only needed for wands of different levels rather than wands of different spells. And if that is how it works for wands, I would expect similar to apply towards scrolls - since I would not expect getting the formulas for scrolls to be much more laborious than doing the same for wands.
Additionally, if you want to nitpick the exact wording of the formula requirements, it says "If an item has multiple types of different levels, each type has its own formula, and you need the formula for the specific type of item you want to Craft." A strict reading of this would seem to imply that multiple types of an item at the same level (Scroll/Wand filled with a different spell of the same level) would not require a separate formula to create.
I think that there's a misunderstanding.
We are not saying that you need a different formula for each spell, just that you need a different one for each spell level.
Then, you can scribe any spell you know of that level (or the hightened versions of other spells you know).
This makes sense to me I guess.
It's no more "punishing" for a wizard player to need to pick up a 1st-level spell scroll crafting formula despite knowing 1st level spells than it is "punishing" for a fighter player to need to pick up a formula to craft a sword even though they own and fight with one.
Yes it is. The fighter can pick up a book of basic formulas for 1 sp and have the formula for every common sword, armor, toolkit, and tool in the game. The wizard has to purchase the formula for each individual spell that he wants to make a scroll of.
I think that there's a misunderstanding.
We are not saying that you need a different formula for each spell, just that you need a different one for each spell level.
Then, you can scribe any spell you know of that level (or the hightened versions of other spells you know).
Yes, and remember that scrolls are quite different things from spellbooks. Spellbooks are what wizards study in the morning to prepare their spells. Scrolls don't require preparation, and they actually contain the magic of the spell. They are magic items, while spellbooks are not.
The big qiestion is if you have the spell in your spell book does that count as the "formula" or do you need s scroll formula book to craft scrolls and get each formula seperatly from each spell in your spellbook for wizards.
I was ruling it this way, yes. You can craft scrolls for spells from your spellbook if you have the magical crafting feat. Spells in your spellbook are basically written down like formula, just like the Alchemist and their formula book. This was not some houserule, this was literally how I interpreted the vague and confusing rules. But it seems from the other posts here that I was mistaken?
Then for spells not in your spellbook, you would need to buy a separate formula for each spell of each level, not just for all spells of a certain level as thenobledrake concludes. This makes more sense to me, so even if it turns out this is not RAW or RAI (which I'm not yet convinced of) I would keep this rule as a houserule.
Yes, and remember that scrolls are quite different things from spellbooks. Spellbooks are what wizards study in the morning to prepare their spells. Scrolls don't require preparation, and they actually contain the magic of the spell. They are magic items, while spellbooks are not.
Sure, but who says scroll formulae are quite different things from spellbook pages? I'd say it makes sense that they're exactly the same thing, as that is how it works for Alchemists. The only reason there is no confusion for the Alchemist is that the word formula book is used instead of spellbook. If the wizard's spellbook was called scroll formula book or something there would also be no confusion, and I would argue that that is exactly what a spellbook is.
It's no more "punishing" for a wizard player to need to pick up a 1st-level spell scroll crafting formula despite knowing 1st level spells than it is "punishing" for a fighter player to need to pick up a formula to craft a sword even though they own and fight with one.Yes it is. The fighter can pick up a book of basic formulas for 1 sp and have the formula for every common sword, armor, toolkit, and tool in the game. The wizard has to purchase the formula for each individual spell that he wants to make a scroll of.
That's not correct. A basic formula book has the formulas for every common item in that Chapter, not in the game.
In any case, Crafting for anything other than Earning Income simply isn't worth it. I mean you can buy a Formula, spend 4 days of downtime, risk failing a roll, and pay full price for the item, or you could just buy the item for full price and then spend 4 days Earning Income. Why anyone would actually craft anything is beyond me.
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Because the item you want is not available for sale. Or because you've got some downtime and you can't find a level-appropriate job.
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Because the item you want is not available for sale. Or because you've got some downtime and you can't find a level-appropriate job.
If the item isn't available, the formula probably isn't either.
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Why anyone would actually craft anything is beyond me.
For 4 reasons:
Earn income through Crafting has a lot of limitations:- Level of the settlement.
- You may not be able to sell the items you want and thus benefit from Specialty Crafting or tools item bonus.
- If you're in a new town, you may not have the right to sell items without a permit or even a shop.
- Sometimes, it's even not possible to earn income at all: If you're in the wilderness, hiding in enemy territory or just invited by the king. In some of these situations you may be able to craft for yourself.
Crafting increases item availability:
- You can reverse engineer or just take the Inventor feat to get access to items that you can't buy.
- You can even create new items with Inventor.
- If you're using some consumables regularly you're happy to be able to craft them if you are in a place where you can't buy them.
- The local magic shop may not have half a dozen Striking Runes but it may have the formula.
- If some items are highly circumstancial, you may just buy the formulas and craft the ones you need on demand. You need 4 days, but you may be far from any shop by the time you need it.
Crafting your own equipment is cool:
- It may be character defining (if you're a smith).
- It allows you to completely customize your items (without any extra cost).
- It's more logical to spend your downtime crafting your equipment than cleaning houses. Especially if you are in a foreign country.
Crafting other party members' equipment is hyper cool:
- You can craft pink full plates and butterfly axes for the dwarven Fighter.
- You can put symbols of Asmodeus on every piece of equipment.
So many reasons...
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It's no more "punishing" for a wizard player to need to pick up a 1st-level spell scroll crafting formula despite knowing 1st level spells than it is "punishing" for a fighter player to need to pick up a formula to craft a sword even though they own and fight with one.Yes it is. The fighter can pick up a book of basic formulas for 1 sp and have the formula for every common sword, armor, toolkit, and tool in the game. The wizard has to purchase the formula for each individual spell that he wants to make a scroll of.
1) The argument is that a wizard has to purchase a formula for each spell level, not each individual spell, so 10 total over their career to make scrolls of every spell level.
2) After purchasing the basic formula book for their weapons/armor, a fighter then needs to purchase individual formula for 12 fundamental runes for their weapons/armor to not suck over their career.Overall, this doesn't look very punishing on the Wizard's side by comparison, especially considering the wide array of spells that can be put into each scroll level and the fact that scroll atks/DCs automatically scale according to the caster unlike weapon/armor statistics (unless using ABP).
Sure, but who says scroll formulae are quite different things from spellbook pages? I'd say it makes sense that they're exactly the same thing, as that is how it works for Alchemists. The only reason there is no confusion for the Alchemist is that the word formula book is used instead of spellbook. If the wizard's spellbook was called scroll formula book or something there would also be no confusion, and I would argue that that is exactly what a spellbook is.
Erm, the words used say they are different things. Note that Alchemists are explicitly based around crafting alchemical items and their formula book does nothing otherwise, while Wizards are based around casting spells and their spellbook already does something without considering crafting at all. Additionally, not all casters use spellbooks, so why would one caster class suddenly gain additional benefits that are never called out or referenced in the text?
I'd also again compare the similarities of scrolls & wands and ask if you'd consider spellbook pages to be sufficient formula for wands as well considering their crafting requirement rules are near identical to those of scrolls (both being different variations of a "spell-in-a-can" item with the only difference being batch crafting & when associated costs are paid with casting the spell).
Why anyone would actually craft anything is beyond me.For 4 reasons:
Earn income through Crafting has a lot of limitations:
- Level of the settlement.
- You may not be able to sell the items you want and thus benefit from Specialty Crafting or tools item bonus.
- If you're in a new town, you may not have the right to sell items without a permit or even a shop.
- Sometimes, it's even not possible to earn income at all: If you're in the wilderness, hiding in enemy territory or just invited by the king. In some of these situations you may be able to craft for yourself.Crafting increases item availability:
- You can reverse engineer or just take the Inventor feat to get access to items that you can't buy.
- You can even create new items with Inventor.
- If you're using some consumables regularly you're happy to be able to craft them if you are in a place where you can't buy them.
- The local magic shop may not have half a dozen Striking Runes but it may have the formula.
- If some items are highly circumstancial, you may just buy the formulas and craft the ones you need on demand. You need 4 days, but you may be far from any shop by the time you need it.Crafting your own equipment is cool:
- It may be character defining (if you're a smith).
- It allows you to completely customize your items (without any extra cost).
- It's more logical to spend your downtime crafting your equipment than cleaning houses. Especially if you are in a foreign country.Crafting other party members' equipment is hyper cool:
- You can craft pink full plates and butterfly axes for the dwarven Fighter.
- You can put symbols of Asmodeus on every piece of equipment.So many reasons...
Inventor only lets you get Common Items. You literally spend a 7th Level Skill Feat for the privilege of wasting your money and time to Craft things that you should be able to buy anywhere.
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Inventor only lets you get Common Items. You literally spend a 7th Level Skill Feat for the privilege of wasting your money and time to Craft things that you should be able to buy anywhere.An item being common doesn't mean it is available at literally every store.
Example: A longsword. Clearly common... but can I buy one while my character is visiting a roadside inn between cities? Not guaranteed, even if they do happen to have a trading post at the inn.
Unless you are away from civilization the default assumption is that common items are available on demand. If you are changing that assumption then you need to let the players know beforehand.
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Inventor only lets you get Common Items. You literally spend a 7th Level Skill Feat for the privilege of wasting your money and time to Craft things that you should be able to buy anywhere.An item being common doesn't mean it is available at literally every store.
Example: A longsword. Clearly common... but can I buy one while my character is visiting a roadside inn between cities? Not guaranteed, even if they do happen to have a trading post at the inn.
They're also not going to have the raw supplies that I need to craft a longsword. Any place where I can get access to a Smithy to do the crafting is going to sell long swords.
Post Errata, even alchemical crafting requires a full Lab that you're not carrying around with you.
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I mean... if we are really talking RAW here you nearly all misinterpreting it anyhow if you want to get down to it.
Individual items ALWAYS have a unique Formula if they are in ANY way, shape, or form different in either Level and Type.
Next, there is no such thing as a "blank scroll" in the system. Scrolls are all uniquely named in accordance with the Spell that it contains. The Scrolls are crafted at the same time that the Spell is added to it as well, there is no in-between step, and you cannot go out and buy or personally craft a "blank" 4rd Level Scroll, that simply does not exist.
Even in the Scroll description it specifically states
...A scroll contains a single spell that you can cast without having to expend a spell slot. A scroll can be Crafted to contain nearly any spell, so the types of scrolls available are limited only by the number of spells in the game.
Following the RAW on this tells us, without question, that every Scroll which contains a different Spell is a unique "Type" which is one of the specific hard/fast rules that is referenced in the Formula section. Every item that has differing types has a Formula for each-and-every-single version of that said item.
A Scroll of Magic Missile (1st Level) needs a "Formula: Scroll of Magic Missile (1st Level)" and a Scroll of Alarm (1st Level) needs a "Formula: Scroll of Alarm (1st Level)" in order for a PC to Craft said Scroll. That's how the RAW works, it's clear as day if you just read the two sections back-to-back. Each Type of a given item with multiple versions has it's own Formula. You'd also need a unique Formula for each of those spells if you have it Heightened to a 4th Level Spell and you'd need to purchase or craft said formula before you can get to cracking on making the Scroll itself.
Go read it all again, the wording indicates Type which as I covered is clearly present in the description of what Scrolls are and how they're handled, and there is no special carve-out to exclude Scrolls from this rule. It isn't pleasant, it isn't gamist, it isn't fun, but it IS technically correct. (The best kind of correct)
THAT BEING SAID, the RAW here is absolutely ludicrous and is almost certainly falls into the "this is too bad/good to be true" category because... well, it's terrible. If the RAW here is to be strictly interpreted as it's written then that would mean there is something to the effect of several thousand different Formulas for Scrolls in the Core Rulebook alon since each Spell will have not only have a unique Formula, but it will have a unique formula for EVERY level it can be cast/prepared at. It's a bad rule and I while it's SUPER easy to gloss over and houserule for the good of the game it almost certainly needs to be cleaned up.
You guys aren't even accounting for other possible divisions. Is a scroll of charm made by a wizard the same as a scroll of charm made by a bard?
(That question was rhetorical.)
I don't personally believe we need to account for magic traditions, I just wanted you to realize that this could be broken down any number of ways.
The fighter can pick up a book of basic formulas for 1 sp and have the formula for every common sword, armor, toolkit, and tool in the game.
Well, every common sword, armor, toolkit, and tool the Equipment chapter of the Core Rulebook, not the whole game.
EDIT: Drat Aratorin!
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Inventor only lets you get Common Items. You literally spend a 7th Level Skill Feat for the privilege of wasting your money and time to Craft things that you should be able to buy anywhere.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
Still, there was a dozen arguments in my list.Also, you don't need an alchemy lab to make alchemical items. You need tools (2 bulks) and in many cases, a workshop. Many cases doesn't mean all cases. It's very DM and craft dependent.
Same for items availability. It really depends on the size of the settlement. You don't have access to magic items in most villages. And even towns don't offer all the items you want in the required quantity.
Also, you don't need an alchemy lab to make alchemical items. You need tools (2 bulks) and in many cases, a workshop. Many cases doesn't mean all cases. It's very DM and craft dependent.The errata changes the gear needed for alchemy, because the original rules were unreasonably harsh on alchemist bulk. Under the errata, alchemist's tools only cost 3 gp and weigh 1 bulk, but it basically only works with the alchemist's class features. For downtime crafting, you need a full alchemist's lab which costs 5 gp and has 6 bulk.
I didn't saw that. But anyway, it doesn't change the fact that it's no workshop. A simple bag of holding I and you can craft wherever you want.
So I'm going to change my opinion, because good points have been made since my previous post (although I'd probably keep my own ruling as a houserule). It seems like the RAW ruling would be: you need a specific formula for every separate spell for every separate level to craft a scroll. Wizard spellbook pages are not a formula.
The only arguments against this being RAW seem to be: A) then scrolls would never be crafted, and B) but you might go a step further and have the same spell from different traditions require their own scroll.
A) is not a good argument in my opinion because there are more examples that are just plain bad using RAW rulings, like the Disarm action, or crafting items in general. For those examples it's clearer what RAW really is, and they just lead to those actions never being used unless GMs use a houserule.
B) is also not a good argument in my opinion because the items we've seen never mention the spell tradition, only the school or sub-school of magic, which is spell-specific and not tradition-specific. A healing potion, for example, has the healing and necromancy traits, not the divine trait, so I imagine scrolls would have similar traits and only depend on the spell rather than the tradition (I haven't checked loot in an official PF2 AP to see what scrolls look like there).
Why would you need the formula for every spell you know? You just add some useful spells to your spellbook every time you level up as a wizard, and then you also add one spell that is very situational. You buy the scroll formula for the situational spell, and craft some scrolls of it during downtime while memorizing the more common spells while adventuring. This essentially gives you extra spell slots as you don't need to memorize your situational spells.
Looking at the cost it is then still an awful option though, I agree with that. I would still say "nope, can't afford to bother with scrolls". Just like I would say "nope, can't afford to spend an action or reaction to Disarm" and "nope, can't afford to use my downtime to actually craft an item myself instead of using craft to earn income" when using RAW. I can link some threads if you want to see a discussion on how bad those two examples I gave are. Your example at least gives some clear benefit (having the ability to craft scrolls of any spell you know, at the cost of lots of money), in contrast using Disarm on a boss gives nothing unless you roll a 20, and crafting an item gives nothing more than using Earn an Income and buying the item instead. But there are plenty of threads for those examples. What I'm saying is, the option being awful is not a reason to doubt that it is RAW, just like with those other examples.
@swoosh and thenobledrake: you both seem to miss the intention of my posts. I already said I'm not ruling scroll formulae as RAW in my games, as even the loose interpretation of needing one formula for each spell level does not fit my group's needs and I think it's still a rather steep cost/limitation. I am trying to figure out what RAW is, and from this thread it seems that the RAW would be 'you need a separate formula for each spell and for every level of that spell' (this is the conclusion from thenobledrake's post and from themetricsystem's post), were it not for argument A): 'but then players would never buy scroll formulae'. I am saying this argument is not a good argument for the ruling not being RAW by looking at examples for other RAW situations that players never use (such as Disarm being useless or at least inferior to other options in any practical situation, or crafting items being inferior to using craft to earn income and buying the item in any practical situation). It's a good argument to not use this ruling, but it's not a good argument that the ruling is not RAW.
Without argument A, there is no reason to not accept that the RAW for scroll formulae is 'you need a formula for each spell and for every level of that spell'. Not just one formula that covers all spells of a certain level. It has nothing to do with what I personally like or want as I'm using a house rule even if it turns out that I'm mistaken and the most loose interpretation would actually be RAW.
Now please turn your personal attacks elsewhere and actually discuss using arguments.
Sorry, I might have overreacted a bit. Bad day.
In your quote, "the rule as printed" is what we mean when talking about RAW. Sure, deviating from it and using your own rules (as I'm doing) is completely valid and encouraged by the designers of the game, and therefore within the game rules. But it's not RAW. Else, every house rule ever becomes RAW, and that's a contradiction.