I have a player running a Leshy Druid. Animal shapechanging didn't fit with the concept of the character. Having a Leshy familiar just seemed really strange. New player, so didn't want the additional complexity of an animal companion. That leaves Storm order. Which is fine. No problems there.
So at first level: they get a rather marginal ability to ignore weather when making ranged attack rolls. Meh. But OK.
Second level: they can get either permanent use of summon animal, or poison resistance. Or take up one of the other order options that were already rejected for various reasons. Really Meh.
Fourth level:
What gives? What options are there? The character doesn't qualify for many of the multiclass archetypes - at least not the only one the player is interested in. Too low of STR stat.
At the very least they should qualify for Cleric MCD.
That gives access to the Shield Cantrip (which I find worthwhile on its own, even if they have a shield) as well as skills and another Cantrip. The feat also gives them access to a Focus Spell (via another feat), which opens up lots of options.
Might want to help the player chart out their feats. There may be enough "meh" levels to make a deeper investment in an MCD worthwhile (or an archetype from one of the other books.)
And wow, I hadn't realized how slim the options were. Maybe because I do think of MCDs to aid the blasting.
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Getting a metamagic like Reach or Widen might be a good option for them.
It does seem like an oversight. Here are some suggestions of what to take though.
Personally, I feel that Storm Druids are the most Spell focused Druids, so I would have gone with Reach Spell at 2 and Widen Spell at 4, but if he's not focusing on Spells, that obviously doesn't make sense.
Rogue Dedication is always a great Feat if you have the DEX for it. 2 Skills and Surprise Attack are good for any Class. One additional Feat beyond the Dedication gets you Sneak Attack. There are very few Feats that give as much of a benefit as +1D6 damage vs Flat-Footed.
I have no idea what the Character concept is, but Magaambyan Attendant or Magic Warrior seems reasonable for a Druid.
If Melee focused, Alchemist Dedication gives you access to a kind of Form Control with Mutagens.
Cleric Dedication of a Nature Deity could give access to neat Spells. Clerics share a Key Ability with Druids, so it's not hard to upkeep.
Pathfinder Agent is another Dedication that's good for basically any Class.
Never take the Ranger Dedication. It's awful. I love Rangers, and a Druid/Ranger seems thematic, but it just gives you no benefit at all.
Getting a metamagic like Reach or Widen might be a good option for them.
That is what she took at lvl 2 - Which is where we currently are in the campaign. I am just looking ahead so I can give suggestions and advice.
Never take the Ranger Dedication. It's awful. I love Rangers, and a Druid/Ranger seems thematic, but it just gives you no benefit at all.
That is actually the one that the player mentioned looking at. I also don't find the combination overly powerful, but I don't think I dislike it as much as you seem to. It does seem especially un-useful in our game though since one of the other players is playing a Ranger.
Getting a metamagic like Reach or Widen might be a good option for them.That is what she took at lvl 2 - Which is where we currently are in the campaign. I am just looking ahead so I can give suggestions and advice.
Never take the Ranger Dedication. It's awful. I love Rangers, and a Druid/Ranger seems thematic, but it just gives you no benefit at all.That is actually the one that the player mentioned looking at. I also don't find the combination overly powerful, but I don't think I dislike it as much as you seem to. It does seem especially un-useful in our game though since one of the other players is playing a Ranger.
It's the only MC dedication that never lets you do the thing that the class does. You get Hunt Prey, but you can never get an Edge, so it's basically completely useless. The Rogue Dedication has the exact same requirements and is infinitely better in every way.
Compared to say a primal witch, a storm druid doesn't get a spell each spell level in exchange for armor proficiency, 1 focus point, and 2 hp a level.
(a witch also gets cackle and a familiar, a storm druid also gets to ignore some effects of weather... I'd call that a win for the witch)
At first level this seems fine, but at higher levels if both take 2 more focus point feats then the druid loses it's focus point advantage because the cap of 3. Also at level 15 they'll have the same AC if the witch started with 16 dex.
So at high levels you have 1 spell per spell level for 2 hp a level and better ability score choices. That really seems like the druid is missing out.
Witch is pretty normal for a 4 caster, I wouldn't say it's better than a wizard or sorcerer, and it's the most similar to the druid.
For the other 3 casters a bard has it's composition cantrips, and a cleric has divine font, it feels like druids 1 focus point really isn't enough... But I guess bard and druid both lose out at high levels compared to the 4 casters and clerics...
Pathfinder Agent Dedication isn't bad. You get trained in one skill or increase a skill to expert , trained in Pathfinder Lore, or an expert if you were already trained. Also when a skill untrained, your proficiency bonus is equal to your level instead of 0. You gain access to wayfinders.
(a witch also gets cackle and a familiar, a storm druid also gets to ignore some effects of weather... I'd call that a win for the witch)
Cackle literally does nothing for you 99.99% of the time and your familiar is your spellbook so you can never let it out of your backpack because it might explode from a random area attack... I'm not seeing a win for the witch. I struggle to say the witch even gets a net positive from those features.
It's the only MC dedication that never lets you do the thing that the class does. You get Hunt Prey, but you can never get an Edge, so it's basically completely useless. The Rogue Dedication has the exact same requirements and is infinitely better in every way.
Yeah. That definitely hurts. And also seems like an oversight. Wouldn't be hard to fix with a homebrew. Looking at Champion for balance comparison - they get Champion Reaction as a lvl 6 feat option. I could easily see putting Ranger Dedication Hunter's Edge at that level.
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And looking at stats and details, I was wrong about the stats. She doesn't qualify for Ranger dedication because of the 12 DEX.
STR 14
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12
She could easily pick up Barbarian dedication - which would be completely counter-productive to a spellcaster...
What I am probably going to do is offer Order Magic without the pesky requirement of Order Explorer. Let her pick another focus spell, gain another focus point, and call it a level.
Compared to say a primal witch...
Witch hasn't been released yet though, yes? I know it was in a playtest a bit ago. I didn't look into the playtest though, so I know nothing.
What I am probably going to do is offer Order Magic without the pesky requirement of Order Explorer. Let her pick another focus spell, gain another focus point, and call it a level.
Heh. Actually, the only one that would be useful is Goodberry.
Granted, that one is very useful. But it is still a rather limited selection.
Maybe a limited selection of storm-themed level 1 primal spells to cast as a focus spell?
(a witch also gets cackle and a familiar, a storm druid also gets to ignore some effects of weather... I'd call that a win for the witch)Cackle literally does nothing for you 99.99% of the time and your familiar is your spellbook so you can never let it out of your backpack because it might explode from a random area attack... I'm not seeing a win for the witch. I struggle to say the witch even gets a net positive from those features.
A familiar is still one cantrip, I consider that better than the storm druid feat.
A familiar is still one cantrip, I consider that better than the storm druid feat.
(a witch also gets cackle and a familiar, a storm druid also gets to ignore some effects of weather... I'd call that a win for the witch)Cackle literally does nothing for you 99.99% of the time and your familiar is your spellbook so you can never let it out of your backpack because it might explode from a random area attack... I'm not seeing a win for the witch. I struggle to say the witch even gets a net positive from those features.
I balance that out on the possibility of losing access to every spell if the familiar peeks it's head out of it's hiding place. I pretty much see it as a wash: Not that Storm Born is great [it's pretty niche] but it's all boon and no bad.
Now if you can guarantee that your familiar will never have to ever worry about an attack, a free cantrip and a free focus point a day isn't bad but I see that more a white room situation or some kind of agreement with the DM.
Storm Born is niche, but the Primal list has the spells to put it to use.
Now the problem is to not hinder the rest of the group while doing so.
I agree that the Storm Druid doesn't have that many options for now (plus the level 6 reaction is really not great imo), put another way to look at it is that it leaves more opening for diversification than Animal or Wild which need all/most of your class feats to stay competitive.
On top of MC dedication there is lots of nice archetypes as well to chose from.
I wouldn't be suprised to see the storm druid get a little more low level love in the APG.
there is some debate about this, but the storm druid's power lets them see through weather (explicitly calling out fog) which makes obscuring mist a very powerful spell for them. They don't need to make a flat check against enemies concealed by weather. All of the later fog spells stay very good for them. You are the GM in this situation so the decision as to whether or not the cloud, mist and fog spells count as weather is your choice.
Widen is a great spell to take advantage of the blaster casting they want to do, which is probably what the player took at second level. Reach is probably the expected choice for the caster heavy storm druid, but I am not that big a fan of it myself either. Call of the wild is a pretty versatile feat though, being able to switch out spells in 10 minutes is a very useful ability and it is not just animals, but also the summon plant/fungus spell as well. Summoning a gourd leshy is awesome low level summon for a leshy druid because if it gets killed, it is probably healing them at the same time.
I am not the biggest fan of familiars, but a storm druid that order explores into leaf druid eventually can become a masterful battlefield tank/controller. The character could interpret the leshy familiar as a sentient extension of its own body, keep it close/in a back pack, and use it primarily as a spell/focus battery. It'd be a pretty unique build and give access to all the plant shaping druid stuff later.
Otherwise, the poison resistance isn't sexy, but poison comes up a fair bit in the APs and can be pretty brutal. The damage taken from poison is usually incremental and spread out over many turns, making resistance to it especially effective. Especially because Druids aren't real great at fortitude saves. Personally, I think that is a better choice than being lured into a MC feat that isn't especially exciting, if the player is excited about being a storm druid, there aren't going to be free feats for a while.
I really dislike call of the wild. I really can't see it being useful. Since it's a summon it has to be a high spot to be useful, and the 10 minute time means you have to know in advance. If you want to summon why not prep a summon?
You could prep a utility spell, then switch it for a summon. But then what if a fight comes up? If you cast the utility spell you couldn't have switched to a summon, and if you haven't cast that utility spell you probably want to cast it later or why did you prep it in the first place?
I really don't see specific situations where this feat would be useful occurring with any regularity.
The spell swapping wizard thesis is good though, because that's way more flexible.
I really dislike call of the wild. I really can't see it being useful. Since it's a summon it has to be a high spot to be useful, and the 10 minute time means you have to know in advance. If you want to summon why not prep a summon?
You could prep a utility spell, then switch it for a summon. But then what if a fight comes up? If you cast the utility spell you couldn't have switched to a summon, and if you haven't cast that utility spell you probably want to cast it later or why did you prep it in the first place?
I really don't see specific situations where this feat would be useful occurring with any regularity.
The spell swapping wizard thesis is good though, because that's way more flexible.
It only has to be high level for combat. The purpose of a 10 minute switch would be for out of combat utility. You memorize the combat spells with your highest level spells but you use your summon for utility stuff.
heck, with summon plants, in PFS, you can summon a weak leaf leshy to talk to trees with a level 1 spell. A GM shouldn't let a tree say much in 1 minute, but between plants fungus and animals, you can get a lot of utility from low level spells as far as movement, exploration, and senses go. Probably more than you can get from a single MC dedication feat.
I guess I see Storm Druid as the intentionally light order for people who are more interested in multiclassing or investing heavily in an archetype. Animal and Wild orders, and to a lesser extent Leaf, are pretty feat-intensive. Storm has a few feats to improve it, but mostly it's just the basic Druid with no painful additional anathema or anything--kind of the Fury instinct for the Druid. Just a punchy focus spell and you're good to go!
If you're looking at it to be even with the other orders, in my opinion I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle. I think it's intentionally lighter for the purpose of increased flexibility.
In my opinion, if you go Druid, it's either for Wild Shape or Animal Companion. A Plant or Storm Druid is clearly behind, say, a Primal Sorcerer with Druid Dedication taking these orders and associated feats. If you are just interested in spellcasting, Druid is not the ideal class.
Thinking about it, it kinda seems like Druids are missing a class feature.
4 spell per day classes like the Wizard, Sorcerer and Playtest Witch are pretty bare bones, just getting their spells per day and a focus spell from the chassis and no proficiencies (wizard gets the worst weapons in the game even)
In order to compensate, 3 spell per day classes get something extra. A bonus feat from their path, along with some other options.
Clerics get Font, which gives them extra top level spells per day. Sure they have to be Heal or Harm, but it gives them more top level spell slots than any other class. On top of that, they get an extra weapon that can be a valuable martial or advanced weapon depending on deity.
Bards get Inspire Courage, basically a perfect third action activity that they can use all day long in almost any kind of combat. Plus they get proficiency with a select number of martial weapons and light armor.
Druids... get medium armor and shields.
It feels like there's a gap here, one that stands out especially for Leaf and Storm druids who are otherwise relying on their reduced spell capacity to carry them through the day.
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Thinking about it, it kinda seems like Druids are missing a class feature.
I (rather vehemently) disagree.
The base chassis for a druid gives:
spells (including lots of the best attack spells in the game and lots of great utility spells too)
decent hit points
decent AC
decent weapons
shield
On top of that you get to pick 2 (essentially, since you need to dedicate about 1/2 your class feats to one path) of
1) Wild shape
2) Animal Companion
3) Storm Druid
4) Plant Druid.
The class is just fine exactly as it is. Its not as good a caster as a wizard/sorcerer but it has lots to compensate. At low levels (where the number of spells really matters) the armor, hit points, and decent attack options help a lot. At higher levels the lack of the extra spells arguably matters less as you have enough to last the adventuring day.
If anything, I'd say it is slightly (very, very slightly) on the too powerful side. It is certainly a WONDERFUL dip class, especially for a cleric.
I agree. I think there is much less of a boundary between the 4 orders of druids than there are between other sub-classes. If you are going into storm druid purely to be the best blaster caster you can be, you probably do MC. If you want to fold any other nature elements into your build, you pretty much have to choose one of the other orders for additional nature feats.
Also the storm druid's focus power is the best attack power in the game.
The base chassis for a druid gives:spells (including lots of the best attack spells in the game and lots of great utility spells too)
decent hit points
decent AC
decent weapons
shield
With a 12 DEX they are going to be down 1 AC point. They can't wear the medium armor that has a +1 DEX cap.
Now, that is not a problem that can't be built around or worked around with special materials. But it still a minor point to mention.
On top of that you get to pick 2 (essentially, since you need to dedicate about 1/2 your class feats to one path) of
1) Wild shape
2) Animal Companion
3) Storm Druid
4) Plant Druid.
This point is also fine in general. However, I am talking specifically about a character build that only wants one of them. Multiclassing or other archetypes seem to be the only option here - and that doesn't really become available until level 6 unless you build for it specifically.
So no help there for the level 4 feat choice.
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This point is also fine in general. However, I am talking specifically about a character build that only wants one of them. Multiclassing or other archetypes seem to be the only option here - and that doesn't really become available until level 6 unless you build for it specifically.
So no help there for the level 4 feat choice.
I'm not sure that I understand your point.
The druid is specifically built so that you have to spend about half your class feats on your order.
Which leaves the other half to (according to taste)
1) branch out into a different order
2) multiclass into whatever takes your fancy
3) take some general feats.
Now, at specifically level 4 you don't have a good choice if you're going option 3 and some of the general feats may not be of interest to you. I think that is your point?
In which case, yeah I agree. But I don't see it as a major problem although I'll admit that is likely at least partially because I really like the other orders and multiclassing in general, especially as we're now getting lots of interesting non class archetypes
And I expect the problem to become smaller (or vanish completely) as more books are released
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The base chassis for a druid gives:
The other 3 spell/day casters all have the same HP and better weapons, so I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to list those as boons for the Druid. Hell, even Sorcerers have the same weapons.
The base chassis for a druid gives:The other 3 spell/day casters all have the same HP and better weapons, so I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to list those as boons for the Druid. Hell, even Sorcerers have the same weapons.
It beats out exactly 1 class at least... :P
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The base chassis for a druid gives:The other 3 spell/day casters all have the same HP and better weapons, so I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to list those as boons for the Druid. Hell, even Sorcerers have the same weapons.
Compare a druid to the cleric. They have the same spell progression as a cloistered cleric but better armor and, generally, about as good weapon advancement (depending on divine weapon).
Better spell advancement than warpriest.
Worse weapons than bard but better armor and shield block.
And I'd claim a better over all spell selection than either (a good mix of blasting, healing and utility spells).
And, for most players, the ability to easily dip into another class or another order is a plus.
I'm not saying they're significantly overpowered or anything but they're certainly at least competitive, at least as long as you want to mix orders or multiclass. I agree the single order single class druid is slightly lacking. But even then not grossly so, the base chassis is good enough that having an occasional less than ideal feat choice really isn't a huge deal (a fair number of classes have dead or poor levels for feats from time to time).
I admit that I LOVE wild shape for the sheer flexibility it gives. Enough that I'd ALWAYS take at least the base level as a druid via order explorer. That probably colours my opinion considerably. To me, druid pretty much always includes wild shape and that means the class is definitely above average in my opinion
I'm not sure that I understand your point.This point is also fine in general. However, I am talking specifically about a character build that only wants one of them. Multiclassing or other archetypes seem to be the only option here - and that doesn't really become available until level 6 unless you build for it specifically.
So no help there for the level 4 feat choice.
I politely disagree with that. I think you understand my point perfectly.
The druid is specifically built so that you have to spend about half your class feats on your order.Which leaves the other half to (according to taste)
1) branch out into a different order
2) multiclass into whatever takes your fancy
3) take some general feats.Now, at specifically level 4 you don't have a good choice if you're going option 3 and some of the general feats may not be of interest to you. I think that is your point?
In which case, yeah I agree. But I don't see it as a major problem
Yes. It is definitely a niche problem, not a major one. It affects one order choice and there are plenty of other possibilities. I mostly find it jarring that there are literally zero class choices at level 4.
I quite disagree with that, Storm Druid is portrayed as blaster / controller.
To help with that you can take reach & widen, not that fancy but efficient.
Or you can take the Lead order and enhanced familiar, leave your familiar in your bag (or in a home game have it reflavored as something more stormy) and have access to more focus, more cantrips and more spells. And then never cared about leaf feats again.
But maybe you should tell us what kind of feat/abilities your player would have liked?
In my opinion, if you go Druid, it's either for Wild Shape or Animal Companion. A Plant or Storm Druid is clearly behind, say, a Primal Sorcerer with Druid Dedication taking these orders and associated feats. If you are just interested in spellcasting, Druid is not the ideal class.
I'll echo this a little and add my thoughts.
The Druid is a strong mid-range class that is defined by having access to a lot of options. If a player primarily wants to use primal magic, the Primal Sorcerer (Elemental Bloodline) is the class that is set up to do just that, and a druid dedication will likely be able to get you the druid pieces they would like.
The game is structured a little funny around Sorcerers and the 3/4 casters, but moving to a different class to specialize in spellcasting is indeed the design.
I quite disagree with that, Storm Druid is portrayed as blaster / controller.
We didn't pick Storm order because it was a blaster/controller setup. It was because she wanted to play a druid because it fit with the setting that I was building (frontier land, small villages, plenty of unexplored wilderness to play in).
And is the blaster/controller mentality just because of the Tempest Surge focus spell?
But maybe you should tell us what kind of feat/abilities your player would have liked?
Hmm..... For her character specifically, she is feeling a bit weak in the melee combat. There are only two PCs, so she really can't hide in the backline behind other characters.
For Storm order itself... The other level 4 feats are all about improving the order. Which is why they all have prerequisites of the order that they are improving.
Earlier there was a question of whether the Storm Born feat allows you to see through magical weather effects like Obscuring Mist. Looking at Darkvision and Darkness spell for comparison, I would agree. But maybe we can still double-down on the perception in adverse conditions theme. Level 4 class feat could grant darkvision (or improve the range), grant 'greater stormvision' to counter any higher level Obscuring Mist or similar magical effect that would try and thwart the regular stormvision from Storm Born.
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I quite disagree with that, Storm Druid is portrayed as blaster / controller.We didn't pick Storm order because it was a blaster/controller setup. It was because she wanted to play a druid because it fit with the setting that I was building (frontier land, small villages, plenty of unexplored wilderness to play in).
And is the blaster/controller mentality just because of the Tempest Surge focus spell?
No, not just that. That Spell is an amazing blast, but there are lots of other reasons too.
The large amount of "free" Feat levels, where there is no Order Feat that you need to take lets you get all of the Metamagic Feats.
Storm Retribution let's you use Tempest Surge as a Reaction.
Stormwind Flight gives you the freedom to fly above the battlefield throwing blasts at the enemy.
Storm Lord lets you hide inside Obscuring Mist and throw free 1 action Lightning Bolts with no Penalty, while keeping yourself safe due to Concealment.
But maybe you should tell us what kind of feat/abilities your player would have liked?Hmm..... For her character specifically, she is feeling a bit weak in the melee combat. There are only two PCs, so she really can't hide in the backline behind other characters.
For Storm order itself... The other level 4 feats are all about improving the order. Which is why they all have prerequisites of the order that they are improving.
Earlier there was a question of whether the Storm Born feat allows you to see through magical weather effects like Obscuring Mist. Looking at Darkvision and Darkness spell for comparison, I would agree. But maybe we can still double-down on the perception in adverse conditions theme. Level 4 class feat could grant darkvision (or improve the range), grant 'greater stormvision' to counter any higher level Obscuring Mist or similar magical effect that would try and thwart the regular stormvision from Storm Born.
There isn't really any way to develop a Druid for melee if you don't go Wildshape (in term of Feats I mean, spells is another matter).
I always assumed Storm Born allowed to see through Obscuring Mist & the like though it is not clear actually. I think this should be clarified in a FAQ (without it, the feat is extremely niche and not balanced compared to what is provided to the other orders)
I quite disagree with that, Storm Druid is portrayed as blaster / controller.We didn't pick Storm order because it was a blaster/controller setup. It was because she wanted to play a druid because it fit with the setting that I was building (frontier land, small villages, plenty of unexplored wilderness to play in).
And is the blaster/controller mentality just because of the Tempest Surge focus spell?
No, not just that. That Spell is an amazing blast, but there are lots of other reasons too.
The large amount of "free" Feat levels, where there is no Order Feat that you need to take lets you get all of the Metamagic Feats.
Storm Retribution let's you use Tempest Surge as a Reaction.
Stormwind Flight gives you the freedom to fly above the battlefield throwing blasts at the enemy.
Storm Lord lets you hide inside Obscuring Mist and throw free 1 action Lightning Bolts with no Penalty, while keeping yourself safe due to Concealment.
O.o
Apparently I haven't read through the later levels well enough. I saw Storm Retribution, but it still burns a focus point (likely the only one you have).
Stormwind Flight is only slightly better than Fly and Air Walk, but it is also renewable since it is a focus spell.
Storm Lord looks impressive. Especially combined with the other druid abilities.
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But maybe you should tell us what kind of feat/abilities your player would have liked?Hmm..... For her character specifically, she is feeling a bit weak in the melee combat. There are only two PCs, so she really can't hide in the backline behind other characters.
For Storm order itself... The other level 4 feats are all about improving the order. Which is why they all have prerequisites of the order that they are improving.
Earlier there was a question of whether the Storm Born feat allows you to see through magical weather effects like Obscuring Mist. Looking at Darkvision and Darkness spell for comparison, I would agree. But maybe we can still double-down on the perception in adverse conditions theme. Level 4 class feat could grant darkvision (or improve the range), grant 'greater stormvision' to counter any higher level Obscuring Mist or similar magical effect that would try and thwart the regular stormvision from Storm Born.
There isn't really any way to develop a Druid for melee if you don't go Wildshape (in term of Feats I mean, spells is another matter).
It's moderately feat intensive but animal companion does put another body on the board and does about as much melee damage as a druid would in 1 action (assuming other 2 actions are for spells). In a 2 PC party it is a quite strong option.
Mechanically, at least. I recognize that may not be a great thematic match